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Question For The Tank Crowd

TuscanyTile2

By TuscanyTile2
in NY Jets Forum

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HawkeyeJet

HawkeyeJet

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Excellent point about there being good QBs in the 10-15 range ... that's also where Big Ben was drafted. No reason to write off a QB just because he's not in the top 3-5 picks.

I made a comment around that earlier this year, and it's not just a recent trend.  For whatever reason, the vast majority of the top QBs are not the 1st few picks or even the first QB taken in their draft.  Some examples below.  Obviously guys like Luck, Wentz and Stafford and others have been good, but a lot have been outside of the first few picks.

Brady(obvious outlier)

Rodgers(Pick 22, 2nd QB)

Big Ben(Pick 7, 3rd QB)

Brees(2nd Round)

Wilson(3rd Round)

Cousins(4th Round)

Prescott(4th Round)

Watson(12th pick, 3rd QB)

That's 8 of 32 starting QBs, and probably 8 of the top 12 QBs in the league.  

Not sure it proves anything other than good QBs can be had outside of the top few picks.

 

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JohnnyLV

JohnnyLV

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7 hours ago, jamesr said:

So we only ever win because the other team sucked, but when we lose it's because we sucked. Right. :rolleyes:

Did not say that. There are some good stories on this team, some promising young talent (all on defense, since we really dont play young players on offense) and Morton and the assistants in general seem to be doing a better job. But winning a game going all away like Thursday does not all of a sudden erase the fact that McClown choked away a couple wins, is playing in a hyper conservative offense designed to maximize his very limited talents and is crippling the future of this team. 

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TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

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2 hours ago, shuler82 said:

And I don't think many people who wanted the team to quote unquote tank actually wanted them to come out and get destroyed week and week out (or were naive to think that the team would attempt to not win on purpose).

I don't think it's even legal to tank on purpose.  The only legit way to tank is to assemble a crappy roster and play those crappy players (though they have to try to win).  I would never want the team to intentionally lose.  That would destroy the league.  I did, however, want the Jets to do what they did do.  That is, cut all the veterans (Revis, Harris, Decker, etc) and play the young guys.  I guess the one difference of opinion I had was that I'd rather we'd have started Hack or Petty this year and left McCown as the backup.  But he was 2-20 in his previous 22 games prior to coming here so I definitely didn't hate the signing.

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ljr

ljr

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I made a comment around that earlier this year, and it's not just a recent trend.  For whatever reason, the vast majority of the top QBs are not the 1st few picks or even the first QB taken in their draft.  Some examples below.  Obviously guys like Luck, Wentz and Stafford and others have been good, but a lot have been outside of the first few picks.

Brady(obvious outlier)

Rodgers(Pick 22, 2nd QB)

Big Ben(Pick 7, 3rd QB)

Brees(2nd Round)

Wilson(3rd Round)

Cousins(4th Round)

Prescott(4th Round)

Watson(12th pick, 3rd QB)

That's 8 of 32 starting QBs, and probably 8 of the top 12 QBs in the league.  

Not sure it proves anything other than good QBs can be had outside of the top few picks.

 

 

Unfortunately at least half of your list an argument can be made that they the top 4 organizations out there ( NE :( , Pitt, GB, & Seattle ) and whatever QB they drafted would have a better than average chance to be top QB's

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HawkeyeJet

HawkeyeJet

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1 hour ago, ljr said:

 

Unfortunately at least half of your list an argument can be made that they the top 4 organizations out there ( NE :( , Pitt, GB, & Seattle ) and whatever QB they drafted would have a better than average chance to be top QB's

Valid point, but the counter argument to be had there is neither New England nor Seattle were hardly the prototype NFL franchises prior to those guys arriving.  Just goes to show that a top flight QB can definitely turn the fortunes of a franchise around, so I certainly understand wanting to get one at all costs.

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Apache 51

Apache 51

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3 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I made a comment around that earlier this year, and it's not just a recent trend.  For whatever reason, the vast majority of the top QBs are not the 1st few picks or even the first QB taken in their draft.  Some examples below.  Obviously guys like Luck, Wentz and Stafford and others have been good, but a lot have been outside of the first few picks.

Brady(obvious outlier)

Rodgers(Pick 22, 2nd QB)

Big Ben(Pick 7, 3rd QB)

Brees(2nd Round)

Wilson(3rd Round)

Cousins(4th Round)

Prescott(4th Round)

Watson(12th pick, 3rd QB)

That's 8 of 32 starting QBs, and probably 8 of the top 12 QBs in the league.  

Not sure it proves anything other than good QBs can be had outside of the top few picks.

 

Not to mention the men that surround them, after all it is a 3 phase sport.

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rangerous

rangerous

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the ulterior motive for the tank crew was to get bowles fired.  right now it doesn't seem like that's happening. still a lot of football left to play and the next 7 games will determine that.  but this is the most important thing of all.  having an intact and good coaching staff is more important than having a sperstar qb.  look at how the teams like the giaints with ELIte and the bungles with red ryder are doing.  or even the chargers with rivers.  those teams aren't doing so well.  the coaching upheaval has hurt those teams.  yeah i get marvin lewis has been at cincy for quite some time but he has lost staff and even the best coaches lose touch.

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TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

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14 minutes ago, rangerous said:

the ulterior motive for the tank crew was to get bowles fired.  right now it doesn't seem like that's happening. still a lot of football left to play and the next 7 games will determine that.  but this is the most important thing of all.  having an intact and good coaching staff is more important than having a sperstar qb.  look at how the teams like the giaints with ELIte and the bungles with red ryder are doing.  or even the chargers with rivers.  those teams aren't doing so well.  the coaching upheaval has hurt those teams.  yeah i get marvin lewis has been at cincy for quite some time but he has lost staff and even the best coaches lose touch.

Damn - I wanted to cite Marvin Lewis.

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ljr

ljr

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2 hours ago, rangerous said:

the ulterior motive for the tank crew was to get bowles fired.  right now it doesn't seem like that's happening. still a lot of football left to play and the next 7 games will determine that.  but this is the most important thing of all.  having an intact and good coaching staff is more important than having a sperstar qb.  look at how the teams like the giaints with ELIte and the bungles with red ryder are doing.  or even the chargers with rivers.  those teams aren't doing so well.  the coaching upheaval has hurt those teams.  yeah i get marvin lewis has been at cincy for quite some time but he has lost staff and even the best coaches lose touch.

Lolololol .... Incorrect

the motive was to draft Darnold or Rosen or whoever fans thought the next superstar QB to be.

Bowles will either improve as an HC or get himself fired all by himself 

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shuler82

shuler82

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9 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I don't think it's even legal to tank on purpose.  The only legit way to tank is to assemble a crappy roster and play those crappy players (though they have to try to win).  I would never want the team to intentionally lose.  That would destroy the league.  I did, however, want the Jets to do what they did do.  That is, cut all the veterans (Revis, Harris, Decker, etc) and play the young guys.  I guess the one difference of opinion I had was that I'd rather we'd have started Hack or Petty this year and left McCown as the backup.  But he was 2-20 in his previous 22 games prior to coming here so I definitely didn't hate the signing.

I agree with you 110%... I don't post a lot, but I've been a pretty vocal 'tank' guy- i was hoping for some hard fought losses this season and a top 3 pick to get a QB. I'm split on Bowles  and the QB position - I think there's something to be said about losing the locker room by playing a young, worse QB - but then again, it's not as if we'd be replacing Joe Montana. if you can't replace Josh McCown, who the fukc can you replace?

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jamesr

jamesr

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Posted
6 hours ago, adb280z said:

oops, for some reason I thought it was 7.  

Regardless of where he was picked ... he was the third QB taken that year, and it could be argued he was the best of the three. Very seldom do you see the top QB being the most successful ... possibly because the top QB usually ends up on the crappiest team.

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KRL

KRL

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On 11/5/2017 at 8:16 AM, Joe Jets fan said:

I bet Philly is thrilled they tanked so they could get the best young QB in the game...

They didn't tank, they were middle of the first round and traded up twice to get who they

wanted.  In fact their record was 7-9

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rangerous

rangerous

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, ljr said:

Lolololol .... Incorrect

the motive was to draft Darnold or Rosen or whoever fans thought the next superstar QB to be.

Bowles will either improve as an HC or get himself fired all by himself 

you're wrong.  the tank crew was just about taking a collection for the billboards and airplane banners.  they want both.

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Jetsfan80

Jetsfan80

Posted
Posted
On 11/4/2017 at 1:00 PM, section314 said:

The last team to totally tank, the Colts, have won crap since they got Luck, and are in far worse shape right now than the Jets could ever be. 

At least they got to enjoy a QB you can build around.  Just because the Colts suck means it's a bad thing to get the # 1 pick.

Either you're a contender, or you want to position yourself as best you can to contend.  A QB you can build around at least means that, barring an injury, you can at least count on the QB position to be "set".  Or, you can move that # 1 pick to a desperate team and set yourself up with a bunch of 1st-3rd rounders over the subsequent 2-3 years.  

In short....Andrew Luck is not the problem with the Indianapolis Colts, and tanking actually CAN work if you do it properly.  

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UnitedWhofans

UnitedWhofans

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

At least they got to enjoy a QB you can build around.  Just because the Colts suck means it's a bad thing to get the # 1 pick.

In short....Andrew Luck is not the problem with the Indianapolis Colts, and tanking actually does work.  

It can work but you need to execute. The Astros are the one team that has won that has executed tanking properly. None of the others have really come close. 

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MDL_JET

MDL_JET

Posted
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Really not happy the Giants might be able to have their pick of the top QB. Jets look for a QB for forever...and here come the Giants, where they can potentially choose the top QB the same exact year their franchise QB starts to decline. Bastards. 

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Adoni Beast

Adoni Beast

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Just now, MDL_JET said:

Really not happy the Giants might be able to have their pick of the top QB. Jets look for a QB for forever...and here come the Giants, where they can potentially choose the top QB the same exact year their franchise QB starts to decline. Bastards. 

If Darnold doesn't come out, Rosen is the only one worth taking that high. And even if he does declare...Cleveland will take one and someone will trade a boatload for #2 pick and take the other.

Question is will the giants leapfrop san fran and whoever they trade with.

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Joe Jets fan

Joe Jets fan

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Posted
3 hours ago, KRL said:

They didn't tank, they were middle of the first round and traded up twice to get who they

wanted.  In fact their record was 7-9

That was my point, you don’t need to tank to get the best QB in the draft and you also don’t destroy your team if you trade a bunch of picks for said QB. 

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Beerfish

Beerfish

Posted
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4 minutes ago, Joe Jets fan said:

That was my point, you don’t need to tank to get the best QB in the draft and you also don’t destroy your team if you trade a bunch of picks for said QB. 

A big part of those two deals was trading Sam Bradford to Minny.  If you don't have that kind of player capital to trade it is indeed very expensive pick wise to make that deal. 

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kelly

kelly

Posted
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55 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

If Darnold doesn't come out, Rosen is the only one worth taking that high. And even if he does declare...Cleveland will take one and someone will trade a boatload for #2 pick and take the other.

the giants will leapfrog san fran and whoever they trade with.

first-bumpthe-big-bang-theorysheldon-coo

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