Big Mac still believes in the Hack Attack

[CanadaSteve]

Again, what is he suppose to say?  He was a waste of a pick?

You can say that when you've got Rex Ryan's current job after the fact.  You can throw all the people under the bus you want.

But in the meantime, they are all great, or they are improving.

[rangerous]

4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

It didn't take 20/20 hindsight to know Hack couldn't play. Good scouts knew before the draft and it was apparent to anyone who watched the 2016 preseason the kid was a mess. Seriously, passing on Watson because Hack needed time isn't hindsight, and any football person who feels that way shouldn't be the GM on an NFL team.

ah, another mac hater.  given the jet 2nd round misses going back over 15 years one more shouldn't bother people much.  the point is mac's reasoning to pass on watson was logical.  and unless the person who evaluates is a bona fide football person, it has no meaning whatsoever.

[jetrider]

I thought QB guru to the stars Jordan Palmer fixed Christian "Sky's The Limit" Hackenberg last offseason ... no?

[Charlie Brown]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

i think all fans have 20-20 hindsight when it comes to jet woulda, coulda players.  but you always have to look at the context in which a decision is made.  at the time, they had mccown, petty and hack all signed.  there was still some reasonable hope that hack would be the guy since it was plenty clear that gailey and patullo did zero to develop this kid.  as a matter of fact the development of nearly all the players was set back a season because of the way last season unfolded.  but that's all water under the bridge.  the second part is that even if watson was drafted, mccown probably still would be starting and, assuming he put up the same numbers, he would still be starting. finally, had they drafted watson and he did start and put up the numbers that he did with the texans what would that mean for the rest of the team?  right now i see a complete team developing that doesn't necessarily have to rely on one player to win.

I am sorry but this makes little sense to me if the jets followed this part of your logic IMO.  

If you forego drafting a potentially Franchise Level QB because you have Josh McCown on your team you should be fired immediately!  

McCown being on your team should have zero impact on who you draft ever!!!

 

[jetrider]

11 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I am sorry but this makes little sense to me if the jets followed this part of your logic IMO.  

If you forego drafting a potentially Franchise Level QB because you have Josh McCown on your team you should be fired immediately!  

McCown being on your team should have zero impact on who you draft ever!!!

 

What part of BOWLES WANTED SAFETIES fails to penetrate your bozone layer?

[rangerous]

21 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I am sorry but this makes little sense to me if the jets followed this part of your logic IMO.  

If you forego drafting a potentially Franchise Level QB because you have Josh McCown on your team you should be fired immediately!  

McCown being on your team should have zero impact on who you draft ever!!!

 

no they still thought hack was going to be ready to start.  with mccown they had the qb's they wanted to start the season with.  and, by the way, it's not my logic.  this is what mac was thinking by all accounts.

[pajet]

2 hours ago, August said:

The point I was trying to make was that Mac preached "taking a quarterback every year" until he found a guy he liked enough then it stopped. I was just addressing that part of your post. The Jets keep wasting time with quarterbacks that won't be here long term. Instead of seeing if Geno can show something with a new coaching staff and weapons they ride it out with Fitzpatrick. Now it's the same problem only with McCown. Give Petty a chance. But more than likely they bring back McCown or another retread QB. 

ok, so we are basically in agreement.   The vet merry go round needs to stop.  I most definitely would prefer seeing Petty or Hack play regardless of the results.   they look good and progress good for us.....they look bad and suck...also good for us with a high draft pick.   However, IMO if you don't know what you have in hack yet and you have a potential FQB staring you in the face you take him.  The fact that he liked him enough to stop is the problem.   He liked him, great....but he isn't there yet and very well may never be, so you keep buying the lottery tickets....maybe one with better odds. 

[Charlie Brown]

10 minutes ago, jetrider said:

What part of BOWLES WANTED SAFETIES fails to penetrate your bozone layer?

I don't care what you allege Bowles wanted.  And that makes no sense...........

First Bowles it has been publicly reported that he LOVED Watson and that is a fact.

Second there is HUNDRED DOLLARS to you or the charity of your choice where you can show that Mac wanted to draft Watson and Bowles overruled and even hinted that Watson would be an unacceptable pick.

And the air seems just fine in this "Bozone" layer.....  Thank you..

[Charlie Brown]

7 minutes ago, rangerous said:

no they still thought hack was going to be ready to start.  with mccown they had the qb's they wanted to start the season with.  and, by the way, it's not my logic.  this is what mac was thinking by all accounts.

Thank you.....

I think that this might be correct as someone who was happy with the Hack pick, I for sure wanted and want this to be correct. 

[Bocajetfan]

Have a hard time understanding all the panic on this board. Yes Ken O’Brien was the last tenured QB the Jets have had. There have been many late bloomers Jim Plunkett, Vinny T. most recently Alex Smith. Not saying Hack is any of them just that he could be and if not it is not the end of the world. Would it be nice to have stability at the position for the long term yes, but as a long time fan would settle for a team capable of a 5 or 6 year run going at least deep in the playoff’s. Notice i said Team and it takes a Team not just a player.

[jetrider]

6 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

I don't care what you allege Bowles wanted.  And that makes no sense...........

First Bowles it has been publicly reported that he LOVED Watson and that is a fact.

Second there is HUNDRED DOLLARS to you or the charity of your choice where you can show that Mac wanted to draft Watson and Bowles overruled and even hinted that Watson would be an unacceptable pick.

And the air seems just fine in this "Bozone" layer.....  Thank you..

Bowles saying he loves Watson doesn't mean a heck of a lot. You're reading too much into it. I'm sure he loves many players. In the same article you cherry picked your favorite line from, it said "they" didn't want to clutter the bullpen. That means QB wasn't high on their list and they only had Trubs ranked as high as 6 on their board out of all the QBs ... from the same article as well.

And that is a fact.

There is TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS to you or the charity of your choice if you can prove Bowles wanted Watson at 6 but Macc did his own thing, hijacked the draft, and took a safety for the pet project defense in Macc's own head. 

Quote

 

Deshaun Watson was the second-rated quarterback on the New York Jets' draftboard, behind Mitchell Trubisky, who was taken four spots earlier by the Chicago Bears. They admired Watson's winning pedigree and coach Todd Bowles "loved him" as a prospect, a source said. The Jets, who haven't had a franchise quarterback since Joe Namath rocked a fu manchu, were in position to make a bold move, perhaps ending decades of misery.

So what did they do? They picked Jamal Adams, a safety.

Jets brass had long discussions about the top passers, deciding only one -- Trubisky -- was worth the sixth pick. While they had high regard for Watson and Patrick Mahomes -- drafted 12th and 10th, respectively -- they didn't consider them plug-and-play quarterbacks. With Christian Hackenberg and Bryce Petty still developing on the bench, they didn't want to clutter the bullpen with another arm. Everyone, including Bowles, agreed Adams was the best choice. They saw him as a player with no holes, someone who could help change the culture of the organization.

 

"Jets brass had long discussions about the top passers, deciding only one -- Trubisky -- was worth the sixth pick"

"Everyone, including Bowles, agreed Adams was the best choice"

Those are more than hints that Bowles included thought Watson would be an unacceptable pick at 6 ... or do you only hear "Bowles loved Watson"? 

[Charlie Brown]

51 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Bowles saying he loves Watson doesn't mean a heck of a lot. You're reading too much into it. I'm sure he loves many players. In the same article you cherry picked your favorite line from, it said "they" didn't want to clutter the bullpen. That means QB wasn't high on their list and they only had Trubs ranked as high as 6 on their board out of all the QBs ... from the same article as well.

And that is a fact.

There is TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS to you or the charity of your choice if you can prove Bowles wanted Watson at 6 but Macc did his own thing, hijacked the draft, and took a safety for the pet project defense in Macc's own head. 

"Jets brass had long discussions about the top passers, deciding only one -- Trubisky -- was worth the sixth pick"

"Everyone, including Bowles, agreed Adams was the best choice"

Those are more than hints that Bowles included thought Watson would be an unacceptable pick at 6 ... or do you only hear "Bowles loved Watson"? 

Sorry Charlie this quote does not say that Bowles somehow overruled Mac and told him to get a safety instead of a QB!!

The quote you point to specifically states that they thought that Adams was their pick.  My point was Bowles said that he loved Watson something he didn't say about Petty or Hack as far as I can tell, and if that was the case and I were the GM and my team needed a QB, I go for him if he was that kind of player...

But this is all moot, because this point is far flung from your still unsupported contentions that Bowles somehow forced Mac to get him to pick another safety or defensive player despite Mac wanting to draft Watson as your post clearly implied!

That is the point my post addressed not the one you attempt to fabricate here.

As I stated then and I state again;

"Second there is HUNDRED DOLLARS to you or the charity of your choice where you can show that Mac wanted to draft Watson and Bowles overruled and even hinted that Watson would be an unacceptable pick."

Oh and you still have money coming to you or your charity if you can show the point at hand and not one that you imagine that I or you were making.

[jetrider]

6 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Sorry Charlie this quote does not say that Bowles somehow overruled Mac and told him to get a safety instead of a QB!!

The quote you point to specifically states that they thought that Adams was their pick.  My point was Bowles said that he loved Watson something he didn't say about Petty or Hack as far as I can tell, and if that was the case and I were the GM and my team needed a QB, I go for him if he was that kind of player...

But this is all moot, because this point is far flung from your still unsupported contentions that Bowles somehow forced Mac to get him to pick another safety or defensive player despite Mac wanting to draft Watson as your post clearly implied!

That is the point my post addressed not the one you attempt to fabricate here.

Oh and you still have money coming to you or your charity if you can show the point at hand and not one that you imagine that I or you were making.

I never once in any thread said Macc wanted Watson. I said countless times they (Macc+Bowles) had no intention of drafting a QB or they wouldn't have signed McCown to a fully guaranteed $6M a month BEFORE the draft. I also said Bowles has no desire to develop a QB (evidenced by Hack, Petty, and nothing added in the draft) and that he needs pre-coached vets developed elsewhere and that's why Macc signs QBs like Fitz and McCown. I said all along they work together, that's how Woody explained it. And when a novice GM drafts two safeties with the top two picks, it's pretty obvious the former safety DC/HC had everything to do with it. You and your muppets like to believe Macc makes every decision by himself.

You argue Bowles wanted to draft Watson because he said he loves Watson. I proved (in the same article) he didn't want to draft Watson with the pick they had.

[Fantasy Island]

I would have been more encouraged if he said that we didn't hit on Hackenberg, but I am going to keep trying to improve the QB position through the draft and FA.  Whatever it takes.

Nope, I bet he is negotiating an extension with Hack right now.  

Mac has got to go.

[JustInFudge]

13 hours ago, rangerous said:

i think all fans have 20-20 hindsight when it comes to jet woulda, coulda players.  but you always have to look at the context in which a decision is made.  at the time, they had mccown, petty and hack all signed.  there was still some reasonable hope that hack would be the guy since it was plenty clear that gailey and patullo did zero to develop this kid.  as a matter of fact the development of nearly all the players was set back a season because of the way last season unfolded.  but that's all water under the bridge.  the second part is that even if watson was drafted, mccown probably still would be starting and, assuming he put up the same numbers, he would still be starting. finally, had they drafted watson and he did start and put up the numbers that he did with the texans what would that mean for the rest of the team?  right now i see a complete team developing that doesn't necessarily have to rely on one player to win.

You're right, the Jets did sign McCown before the draft. It was the reason everyone knew they were passing on taking a QB, which is absolutely moronic.  The hope for Hack thing is getting a bit ridiculous.  Has there ever been in a player that has risen from where he is?  A player resigned to 3rd string, not allowed to dress, who is absolutely horrible looking at every given opportunity and just magically turns it around because of time and development?  I'd love an example and then maybe I can buy into this hope.

The Watson not starting because of McCown thing I've heard before and it too doesn't make sense.  If Todd was that stupid, who cares?  You're not getting Watson for 1 year.  This about the future since this team obviously is not competing any time soon.  And it's about the QB position because unfortunately, everything else matters very little in comparison. And Josh McCown is not the future. 

If Watson was drafted and starting and putting up good numbers, what would that do for the team?  Do I really need to answer that?  You don't see a complete team developing right now because the signal caller is a 38 year old who has played for more NFL teams than any other player in the history of the league.   

I think it's great that the D is coming along.  Thats what should happen when all you do is invest in D. 

[Scott Dierking]

13 minutes ago, JiF said:

 Has there ever been in a player that has risen from where he is?  A player resigned to 3rd string, not allowed to dress, who is absolutely horrible looking at every given opportunity and just magically turns it around because of time and development?  I'd love an example and then maybe I can buy into this hope.

 

Dave Krieg, Rich Gannon at the top of my head are 2 examples.

That said, I have no idea what Hack may be at this point.

[UnitedWhofans]

It just goes back to the way people want to build a football team. A lot of people want QB first and team second. I like it the other way, and I have seen the other way work more often

[jetspenguin]

This is kind of silly, any GM worth his salt isn't going to call out or disrespect a player to the press even if he is disappointed. This article is implying that he is clueless and cant see that the player is a disappointment when the fact is that he just ain't telling them shyt even if he is. There is nothing to gain by calling the player out other than to have other players resent you for doing it.  

[NoBowles]

The odds of Hack ever being a legit starting QB is very low, but its kind of amazing the world we live in now... There was a time in the NFL not that long ago when it was the norm for QB's to have time to develop, either on or off the field. Bradshaw developed on the field and was beyond awful for his first entire 4 seasons..... If he was drafted today by the Jets, or most other cities, he would have been out of the league well before becoming a Hall of Famer.....

Many QB's used to sit and learn before even seeing the field.

We have a QB who has played under 4 offensive systems in 4 years, clearly needed to work out a lot of issues, and is being declared completely dead a year and half into his Jets career.

 

[PCP63]

I think that this season has given Mac a bit of room to be trusted. Most of his moves are panning out better than expected.

[NoBowles]

2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Dave Krieg, Rich Gannon at the top of my head are 2 examples.

That said, I have no idea what Hack may be at this point.

I would argue Terry Bradshaw as well

[jetrider]

32 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

The odds of Hack ever being a legit starting QB is very low, but its kind of amazing the world we live in now... There was a time in the NFL not that long ago when it was the norm for QB's to have time to develop, either on or off the field. Bradshaw developed on the field and was beyond awful for his first entire 4 seasons..... If he was drafted today by the Jets, or most other cities, he would have been out of the league well before becoming a Hall of Famer.....

Many QB's used to sit and learn before even seeing the field.

We have a QB who has played under 4 offensive systems in 4 years, clearly needed to work out a lot of issues, and is being declared completely dead a year and half into his Jets career.

We don't know what Hack's potential is because he hasn't had a chance to fail or succeed in a real game.

Maybe he has an extra delayed learning curve.

If you look at Watson the guy looks like a full-grown man, mentally and physically. Hackenberg looks like he rides a skateboard to work.

They're two different animals. Watson looks twice his age and his body agrees apparently. 

[jetrider]

2 hours ago, NoBowles said:

I would argue Terry Bradshaw as well

Steve Young was declared a bust in TB and was a backup for four years in SF

[Mogglez]

21 hours ago, JiF said:

A lot of overreactions from the overreactions crowd.  The moral to the article isn't that Mac still believes in Hack and is going to allow him to earn a 2nd round pay check to learn the position for the length of his rookie contract while never taking a single snap in the league and only dressing once.  It's that Mac is literally clueless and has zero urgency around solving the gapping hole at the most important position in all of sports.  Meanwhile, every single QB needy team in the NFL during Mac's tenure has attempted and have seemed to solve their QB problem outside of the Browns and maybe the Bears both not from a lack of effort.

 

 

"It's not that the article I posted was trying to insinuate that Macc isn't gonna draft a QB/doesn't know he desperately needs one based off of nothing more than a PR speak mid-season presser, it's also the fact that he literally hasn't figured out how to speed up time in order to make the draft be here now.  Only guys who want to draft QBs do that and it's clear that Macc doesn't want to."

We get it.  You're still pissed that the Jets passed on Watson.  That is totally fine and reasonable. I felt the same way when we failed to trade up for Wentz.  It is one of the 1 million things you actually use to criticize the guy. This sh*t article, on the other hand, isn't one of them.

[Warfish]

I don't read this as belief in Hack btw.  I read it as "he's young, we still have time, he could still come round".

Which is 100% appropriate and 100% true.  Hack could still come round.  It may not be likely, perhaps, but at 22 and in year 2, we have time to wait.

What that does NOT mean is the Jets should pass up on a QB in the 2018 draft.  Hack can stay, and can compete with whomever we draft the next two years, no worries.

But it better be competing vs. a draft pick, not vs. McCown.  I'm confident Macc understands this and won't pass because of Hack.

Now, signing Cousins to a billion dollars and 8 years, THAT Macc might do......that's our big risk this offseason.

[Mogglez]

"Geez, so many overreactions! It isn't that Macc still believes in Hack, you're missing my point and the moral of the article...."

*Names thread "Big Mac still believes in the Hack Attack"*

 

[Pac]

Hack will have through next year to prove if he can turn into anything.  People laughed when Morton said it, but it's true that he is basically a rookie this year.  The last OC and QBC openly admitted they would do nothing with Hack all year to help him improve.  It was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard come from an NFL coach.  Mind numbingly stupid.

The same dopes that are definitively labeling him a bust were doing the same thing with Lee, Jordan Jenkins, and calling trading for Demario a terrible move.  Suffice to say I don't put much stock in what they have to say.

[Mogglez]

33 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I don't read this as belief in Hack btw.  I read it as "he's young, we still have time, he could still come round".

Which is 100% appropriate and 100% true.  Hack could still come round.  It may not be likely, perhaps, but at 22 and in year 2, we have time to wait.

What that does NOT mean is the Jets should pass up on a QB in the 2018 draft.  Hack can stay, and can compete with whomever we draft the next two years, no worries.

But it better be competing vs. a draft pick, not vs. McCown.  I'm confident Macc understands this and won't pass because of Hack.

Now, signing Cousins to a billion dollars and 8 years, THAT Macc might do......that's our big risk this offseason.

110% this.

[rangerous]

3 hours ago, JiF said:

You're right, the Jets did sign McCown before the draft. It was the reason everyone knew they were passing on taking a QB, which is absolutely moronic.  The hope for Hack thing is getting a bit ridiculous.  Has there ever been in a player that has risen from where he is?  A player resigned to 3rd string, not allowed to dress, who is absolutely horrible looking at every given opportunity and just magically turns it around because of time and development?  I'd love an example and then maybe I can buy into this hope.

The Watson not starting because of McCown thing I've heard before and it too doesn't make sense.  If Todd was that stupid, who cares?  You're not getting Watson for 1 year.  This about the future since this team obviously is not competing any time soon.  And it's about the QB position because unfortunately, everything else matters very little in comparison. And Josh McCown is not the future. 

If Watson was drafted and starting and putting up good numbers, what would that do for the team?  Do I really need to answer that?  You don't see a complete team developing right now because the signal caller is a 38 year old who has played for more NFL teams than any other player in the history of the league.   

I think it's great that the D is coming along.  Thats what should happen when all you do is invest in D. 

yep, hack is not looking so good.  but there have been qb's who took some time before they started to get good.  rich gannon for one.  even jay fiedler or dave kreig.  i think one of the frustrating things is that there doesn't seem to be much info about what his actual issues are.  yes they said it was mechanics but have people watched the way mccown throws?  if it's the mental part of the game then they really need to get him into a real game to see what he can do.  i know they played him in pre season but imo it's not the same thing.

as for watson, imo bowles would not be starting watson.  and if mccown and the team continued to perform like they have watson would still be on the bench.  about the only thing that can be said is when the season goes out of reach watson probably would start.  i don't get the same feeling about hack.  speaking of hack, maybe he needs to start doing what ray lucas did and get on special teams.  he needs to get in there and start fighting for his job.  he's a big gu.  he should be able to give or take a hit.

[UntouchableCrew]

17 hours ago, rangerous said:

ah, another mac hater.  given the jet 2nd round misses going back over 15 years one more shouldn't bother people much.  the point is mac's reasoning to pass on watson was logical.  and unless the person who evaluates is a bona fide football person, it has no meaning whatsoever.

I don't even hate Mac. He's done some decent things.

But he's been an abject failure at evaluating QBs and passing on Watson because you have Hackenberg, who looked almost immediately like he was a total whiff isn't logical. It's insane.

[rangerous]

3 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Dave Krieg, Rich Gannon at the top of my head are 2 examples.

That said, I have no idea what Hack may be at this point.

funny because i brought up the same two guys in a later post.  i added jay fiedler too.  it happens all the time and then you get the guys who sit on the bench for very long times like matt moore or the guy at pittsburgh who really can't ever be starters (unless moore is playing against the jets).

[NoBowles]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I don't read this as belief in Hack btw.  I read it as "he's young, we still have time, he could still come round".

Which is 100% appropriate and 100% true.  Hack could still come round.  It may not be likely, perhaps, but at 22 and in year 2, we have time to wait.

What that does NOT mean is the Jets should pass up on a QB in the 2018 draft.  Hack can stay, and can compete with whomever we draft the next two years, no worries.

But it better be competing vs. a draft pick, not vs. McCown.  I'm confident Macc understands this and won't pass because of Hack.

Now, signing Cousins to a billion dollars and 8 years, THAT Macc might do......that's our big risk this offseason.

This 100%

[pajet]

1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

I would argue Terry Bradshaw as well

how about tyrod Taylor....not that he is as good as the others, but he sat as a backup in Balt for several years before the noted QB guru Rex Ryan pried him away to be his starter.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Mogglez said:

"It's not that the article I posted was trying to insinuate that Macc isn't gonna draft a QB/doesn't know he desperately needs one based off of nothing more than a PR speak mid-season presser, it's also the fact that he literally hasn't figured out how to speed up time in order to make the draft be here now.  Only guys who want to draft QBs do that and it's clear that Macc doesn't want to."

We get it.  You're still pissed that the Jets passed on Watson.  That is totally fine and reasonable. I felt the same way when we failed to trade up for Wentz.  It is one of the 1 million things you actually use to criticize the guy. This sh*t article, on the other hand, isn't one of them.

Mac has shown zero urgency regarding the position at this point but hey, hope is fun! Just like 2018 being an all time QB class!!!

This isn’t about Watson, this about his overall lack of plan and urgency regarding the postion.  He didn’t just get here.  

Anywho, i decide what i want to criticize, thank you very much. 

[ChuckkieB]

32 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I don't even hate Mac. He's done some decent things.

But he's been an abject failure at evaluating QBs and passing on Watson because you have Hackenberg, who looked almost immediately like he was a total whiff isn't logical. It's insane.

Fitzpatrick, McCown, Petty, and Hackenberg have been the Jets QB's under Mac's leadership for the last 2-1/2 years.  That's plenty to hate Mac for.  Passing on viable QB's and not properly evaluating the QB's he picked over that span is plenty more to hate Mac for. 

If Mac doesn't lock up a legit QB via the draft or free agency in 2018, he should be run out of town.