An Introduction and Jet's Scheme Question

[Dink and Drunk]

Hello folks,

I just made an account, so I wanted to introduce myself and hopefully start discussion about Jets' offensive (& defensive) schemes. I grew up a in Massachusetts as a Patriots fan (forgive me!), and I still follow the team. My first Patriots memory is the SB loss to the Packers, and my second was the Mo Lewis game. Yet also am a huge fan of football strategy, player scouting, and FO decision making, etc. I try to keep up with teams around the league generally, and in the last year I began listening to Joe & Evan NFL podcasts on WFAN on a quasi-regular basis. 

I truly don't feel any Jets animosity and would be able to re-watch the AFC divisional playoff loss without getting worked up. I have zero intention of trolling on here; I legitimately want to talk Jets & football with you folks. However, I might respond to low-effort "Cheatriots" posts with sarcasm, or I might just ignore them. I have zero interest in seriously rehashing those scandals. Lets talk X's and O's instead:

I consider myself decently knowledgable about the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system (EP). On a Texans board I have contrasted EP to Gary Kubiak's offensive system, and gave an example of how to effectively game-plan using EP. For those who watched the SNF game last night, I believe that NE used many of those themes to attack Denver's safeties and line-backers. From what I understand, some other teams use a EP system, but the majority of use either a West-Coast naming system, the Air Coryell System, or some hybrid. Although, I am more knowledgeable about offensive schemes, I am generally interested in football strategy, including the defensive side. Now on to how this relates to the Jets:

1. I am curious if folks have any information on or would like to discuss the Jet's offensive or defensive schemes. I know that Todd Bowles served as a defensive backs coach under Parcells, so him and Bellicheck's defensive coaching trees overlap a bit. I have seen it claimed that Parcells' cowboys ran EP, so Bowles might have familiarity with that system. I don't know much about John Morton, but this news article claims he uses West Coast.

2. Do you have any thoughts about how these offensive schemes might effect the Jets performance week to week? As an example answer to this question: I know that west-coast play calls tend to be quite long relative to EP. At times the Jets have seemed lackadaisical in two-minute offense situations. Perhaps the long names of the plays creates a communication issue. (I thought your offense has looked quite good generally. Not trying to knock Morton.)

Anyway, hope this sparks some fun discussion during the bye week. Good luck vs. Panthers when you come back! I have never been a Newton fan.

-Dink and Drunk

[joewilly12]

Is this Todd Bowles? 

[rangerous]

ehert??? you mean erhardt.

[Dink and Drunk]

4 minutes ago, rangerous said:

ehert??? you mean erhardt.

Fixed. Please excuse my typos.

[dbatesman]

Check out Prof. Nerdington over here

[RESNewYork]

18 minutes ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Hello folks,

I just made an account, so I wanted to introduce myself and hopefully start discussion about Jets' offensive (& defensive) schemes. I grew up a in Massachusetts as a Patriots fan (forgive me!), and I still follow the team. My first Patriots memory is the SB loss to the Packers, and my second was the Mo Lewis game. Yet also am a huge fan of football strategy, player scouting, and FO decision making, etc. I try to keep up with teams around the league generally, and in the last year I began listening to Joe & Evan NFL podcasts on WFAN on a quasi-regular basis. 

I truly don't feel any Jets animosity and would be able to re-watch the AFC divisional playoff loss without getting worked up. I have zero intention of trolling on here; I legitimately want to talk Jets & football with you folks. However, I might respond to low-effort "Cheatriots" posts with sarcasm, or I might just ignore them. I have zero interest in seriously rehashing those scandals. Lets talk X's and O's instead:

I consider myself decently knowledgable about the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system (EP). On a Texans board I have contrasted EP to Gary Kubiak's offensive system, and gave an example of how to effectively game-plan using EP. For those who watched the SNF game last night, I believe that NE used many of those themes to attack Denver's safeties and line-backers. From what I understand, some other teams use a EP system, but the majority of use either a West-Coast naming system, the Air Coryell System, or some hybrid. Although, I am more knowledgeable about offensive schemes, I am generally interested in football strategy, including the defensive side. Now on to how this relates to the Jets:

1. I am curious if folks have any information on or would like to discuss the Jet's offensive or defensive schemes. I know that Todd Bowles served as a defensive backs coach under Parcells, so him and Bellicheck's defensive coaching trees overlap a bit. I have seen it claimed that Parcells' cowboys ran EP, so Bowles might have familiarity with that system. I don't know much about John Morton, but this news article claims he uses West Coast.

2. Do you have any thoughts about how these offensive schemes might effect the Jets performance week to week? As an example answer to this question: I know that west-coast play calls tend to be quite long relative to EP. At times the Jets have seemed lackadaisical in two-minute offense situations. Perhaps the long names of the plays creates a communication issue. (I thought your offense has looked quite good generally. Not trying to knock Morton.)

Anyway, hope this sparks some fun discussion during the bye week. Good luck vs. Panthers when you come back! I have never been a Newton fan.

-Dink and Drunk

I will play

-what is your opiion of the Jets GM and his recent picks

-What is your opinion of the coaching staff

 

[Jetscode1]

@Maxman

Fukking new guys should post over 100 times before starting threads...just a thought.

[Apache 51]

The score is 5 to 1 not much to talk about.

[Dink and Drunk]

1 hour ago, RESNewYork said:

I will play

-what is your opiion of the Jets GM and his recent picks

-What is your opinion of the coaching staff

GM: I think the FO did the right thing by getting younger this year. The 2016 Jets seemed to suffer from similar motivational problems as the 2017 Giants, although the cause might be different. In the Jets case, last year they signed a number of veteran FAs as if they were in "win now mode". Things did not go as planned, the locker room issues and motivational issues plagued the team. I am not sure what to make of the potential overconfidence in the Jets strength in 2016, but the FO responded appropriately to their mistake. Cutting and trading away the older talent for younger, hungrier talent made sense from a long term perspective. I also like that they acquired a vet QB so their team could function if Hack & Petty continued to disappoint. Having complete incompetence from the QB position could potentially stunt player development of the other skill positions. I also liked the WR pick-ups.

The fact that the Jets "over-performed" in during the rebuild is a testament to both scouting and coaching. It is a very positive sign for Jets fans going forward. 

I am not enough of a "draft-nik" to have a deep opinion on the Jets latest draft. Early double dipping in safeties is interesting, and 6 seems like a bit high to take one. Perhaps they should have traded down, but I could be way off on this. I am interesting in improving my scouting skills, but I think my football knowledge is more schematic.

--

Bowles: I believe Jets fans should still be patient with Bowles, as referenced above his performance against expectations was impressive. Given that the FO said something like "wins are not that important, team improvement is" it would be a huge mistake to fire him at this point. Even if you think he deserves getting canned, other potential HCs might be scared away by that.

IMO, his biggest weakness is game & clock management. For one thing, I have seen too many times where the Jets have had to waste timeouts (relates to my scheme question). More importantly, he has punted the ball away in situations where doing so creates virtually no chance to win. At times he seems to make poor risk-reward evaluations or exhibit poor situational awareness, which I think his players inherit from him to some extent. The thing is, I think the vast majority of NFL coaches struggle with these same things, and I am not convinced Bowels is actually making these mistakes at a higher rate. The fact that his teams tend to peter-out toward the end of the game is a bad sign. I don't yet have an opinion if that is a game-planning issue or a discipline and focus issue. 

I am a fan of Bowles' demeanor. Being emotionally level is generally a good thing, and it reminds me of Belichick and Brad Stevens. However, for some reason that emotional regularity does not translate as well to team focus for Bowles. Perhaps if/when he has more experience as a HC it will. Belichick is also willing to rip into a team when need be, and I have not seen Bowles do that.

Schematically, Bowles defense reminds me a bit of the Patriots in the following sense. It seems that he focused on containing the QB rather than selling out for the pass rush, and he was willing to threaten Blitz only to have a ton of players drop into coverage. There was one play vs. the Pats where the entire DL dropped back into zone. While I generally like maintaining contain during pass rush for OLB and DEs, I think it is a mistake to do it against Brady. Brady is not enough of a threat outside of the pocket to worry about it. You really just want your DL to sell out for pressure and keep as many back in disguised pressure as you can. I have not watched enough all-22 of the Jets to say much about their back end. 

Offense: I have found the Jets results impressive, but their offense looks a bit vanilla. It reminds me a bit of Green Bay, which seems overly reliant on Rodgers skills rather than "scheming people open". I think the Jets need to have solid day in the run game to win. Mccown is still exposed in obvious passing situations. 

The TE offensive coach that has impressed me the most of the position coaches. During the Bills game the Jets were going in 12 personnel, but using their TE#2 lined up as a FB in I formation. That TE#2 made a nice block to seal the edge so the RB could get outside. Being able to get that sort of flexibility out of you TEs shows good coaching. Seferian-Jenkins has looked like a legitimate threat. 

----

Those are just some initial impressions. I would have to do re-watching to have more particular plays to talk about. 

 

 

[jetrider]

Say "hi" to Ernie Adams for us

[Dink and Drunk]

4 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Say "hi" to Ernie Adams for us

Foiled again! What gave it away that I was Patriots supporter? How would you recommend scheme to infiltrate Jet's fandom? 

[jetscrazey]

Bowles will play any scheme on defense.  Like most coaches, he probably ideally prefers man coverage on the outside if he has the players for it, but that's not the case right now because opposite Claiborne is nothing but inconsistency and there's no natural great edge rusher so they have to blitz.

Offensively, Morton is a west coast guy for sure.  There's a lot of verbiage and the play calls are long, so it ideally involves a brainy QB, though there are exceptions.  However I think they use codes so as not the use the entire play call in 2 minute drill.  The bottom line is the o-line is still young, raw, and inconsistent (especially in the run game), and the QB and skill players are just average at best.

[peebag]

what the fu...

[BCJet]

Our offense/Morton are strongly influenced by the Harbaugh offenses that the 49ers ran.  Power running game, play action, and motion/misdirection plays on offense to scheme WRs open.

The issue is, and this was SO apparently on Sunday, is that our offensive line is not in any way a power running group. Winters and Wes Johnson are very light for their positions and McGuire and Powell are not RBs who do well running behind a FB.  

I believe Morton is a good OC, and adapts to what is going on, I just sincerely hope he can see that the Lawerence Thomas/run through the tackles isnt working and goes back to running out of a 3 WR set to get Powell and McGuire in space.  That is when our offense is working best.

[Dink and Drunk]

12 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

Bowles will play any scheme on defense.  Like most coaches, he probably ideally prefers man coverage on the outside if he has the players for it, but that's not the case right now because opposite Claiborne is nothing but inconsistency and there's no natural great edge rusher so they have to blitz.

One thought on the defensive scheme.

As expected, I noticed that the Jets were in a 3-4 base when the patriots were in 21 personnel (RB, FB, TE). In fact the Jets even brought down the SS into the box as a 8th defender. Typically, you want the DL to 2 gap in a 3-4 system, and ideally occupy 2 blockers. This hopefully allows one of the 2 MLBs to be free for the tackle. The Jets DL was not able to consistently achieve that on these runs, and it allowed the Patriots man blocking scheme to win 1v1 across the board. I will post some Gifs:

21 personel vs. 3-4 SS in box:

11 personnel vs. nickel, SS in box (same issue as base):

11 Personnel vs. 4-2 Nickel, safeties close to LOS. MLB beats 1v1 block, yet can't wrap up. #94 and/or #21 blows contain role.

The point of these clips is to show that Bowles might not be running a traditional 3-4 scheme, despite lining up like it. Alternatively, perhaps the DL is failing to execute the 2-gap.  

[whodeawhodat]

19 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Hello folks,

I just made an account, so I wanted to introduce myself and hopefully start discussion about Jets' offensive (& defensive) schemes. I grew up a in Massachusetts as a Patriots fan (forgive me!), and I still follow the team. My first Patriots memory is the SB loss to the Packers, and my second was the Mo Lewis game. Yet also am a huge fan of football strategy, player scouting, and FO decision making, etc. I try to keep up with teams around the league generally, and in the last year I began listening to Joe & Evan NFL podcasts on WFAN on a quasi-regular basis. 

I truly don't feel any Jets animosity and would be able to re-watch the AFC divisional playoff loss without getting worked up. I have zero intention of trolling on here; I legitimately want to talk Jets & football with you folks. However, I might respond to low-effort "Cheatriots" posts with sarcasm, or I might just ignore them. I have zero interest in seriously rehashing those scandals. Lets talk X's and O's instead:

I consider myself decently knowledgable about the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system (EP). On a Texans board I have contrasted EP to Gary Kubiak's offensive system, and gave an example of how to effectively game-plan using EP. For those who watched the SNF game last night, I believe that NE used many of those themes to attack Denver's safeties and line-backers. From what I understand, some other teams use a EP system, but the majority of use either a West-Coast naming system, the Air Coryell System, or some hybrid. Although, I am more knowledgeable about offensive schemes, I am generally interested in football strategy, including the defensive side. Now on to how this relates to the Jets:

1. I am curious if folks have any information on or would like to discuss the Jet's offensive or defensive schemes. I know that Todd Bowles served as a defensive backs coach under Parcells, so him and Bellicheck's defensive coaching trees overlap a bit. I have seen it claimed that Parcells' cowboys ran EP, so Bowles might have familiarity with that system. I don't know much about John Morton, but this news article claims he uses West Coast.

2. Do you have any thoughts about how these offensive schemes might effect the Jets performance week to week? As an example answer to this question: I know that west-coast play calls tend to be quite long relative to EP. At times the Jets have seemed lackadaisical in two-minute offense situations. Perhaps the long names of the plays creates a communication issue. (I thought your offense has looked quite good generally. Not trying to knock Morton.)

Anyway, hope this sparks some fun discussion during the bye week. Good luck vs. Panthers when you come back! I have never been a Newton fan.

-Dink and Drunk

Welcome to the board, prepare to be greatly disappointed.

[Dink and Drunk]

12 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

The bottom line is the o-line is still young, raw, and inconsistent (especially in the run game), and the QB and skill players are just average at best.

 

4 hours ago, BCJet said:

Our offense/Morton are strongly influenced by the Harbaugh offenses that the 49ers ran.  Power running game, play action, and motion/misdirection plays on offense to scheme WRs open.

The issue is, and this was SO apparently on Sunday, is that our offensive line is not in any way a power running group. Winters and Wes Johnson are very light for their positions and McGuire and Powell are not RBs who do well running behind a FB.  

I believe Morton is a good OC, and adapts to what is going on, I just sincerely hope he can see that the Lawerence Thomas/run through the tackles isnt working and goes back to running out of a 3 WR set to get Powell and McGuire in space.  That is when our offense is working best.

From what I have seen, I agree with both of these assessments. Now that you mention it I can see the Harbaugh influence. I think part of the problem is McCown is exposed in obvious passing situations. The Jets need to establish the run, yet can't actually beat the other team's DL each Sunday (for some reason they did well on a Thursday however!)

I do think you have a good point about running out of 3 WR. Maybe 2 WR & 2 TEs would also be good. I will look out for that when I watch the next Jets game.

Finally, here is a tweet with a gif to demonstrate what @BCJet might have meant by "motion/misdirection plays on offense to scheme WRs open", from a 3 WR set.

[BCJet]

1 hour ago, Dink and Drunk said:

 

From what I have seen, I agree with both of these assessments. Now that you mention it I can see the Harbaugh influence. I think part of the problem is McCown is exposed in obvious passing situations. The Jets need to establish the run, yet can't actually beat the other team's DL each Sunday (for some reason they did well on a Thursday however!)

I do think you have a good point about running out of 3 WR. Maybe 2 WR & 2 TEs would also be good. I will look out for that when I watch the next Jets game.

Finally, here is a tweet with a gif to demonstrate what @BCJet might have meant by "motion/misdirection plays on offense to scheme WRs open", from a 3 WR set.

I saw a good gif the other day of a fake quick hit to the WR, where mccown then turned around and we ran a screen to the other side - was a great play, and something we saw zero of on Sunday vs the Bucs.

Personally, I think this offense can be very successful next seasons with ASJ at TE, Enunwa playing the hybrid H-Back/WR spot he did in 2015, Robby Anderson as one WR and Adarius/Kearse as the other WR.  With improved center play (through FA or draft) and any QB who is either better then mccown (Cousins) or has a stronger arm and can run (Mayfield/Jackson) this offense can be successful due to the mismatch potential it presents.

With the above group, you can have a good blocking group with Enunwa and ASJ and run the ball, or go 4 wide with a RB that can catch and hit short passes and especially bubble screens, especially with Robby being able to stretch the field on one side.  

That group (with improved center play - which is a must) can really ease the burden on a  young QB or let someone like Cousins thrive by getting us in the right play call, and taking what the defense gives while being able to hit the occasional deep ball.

[Dink and Drunk]

23 minutes ago, BCJet said:

I saw a good gif the other day of a fake quick hit to the WR, where mccown then turned around and we ran a screen to the other side - was a great play, and something we saw zero of on Sunday vs the Bucs.

I know that play just from your description! I did not know the Jets run it however. I can remember seeing the Pats do it last year, and they have done it at least a couple times this year as well. I believe I have also seen a couple non-AFCE teams do it also, although I can't recall who at the top of my head (maybe it was just the Jets). Next time I see it I post a clip of it. for you!

That is not to brag about the Pats at all. It is amazing how many teams copy eachother's plays. I have no idea if the Pats even did it first. Check out this play that the Chief's ran, and the Pats copied it a week later.

If you can't tell, I am a huge fan of (re-)watching particular plays and play breakdowns. I have been checking out the following site, and would be happy to check out gifs of any particular plays from games. http://turnonthejets.com/category/film-breakdown/

If you see a cool play try to remember the time of game it was in, or at least the situation. I can make a gif of it and will post it. I do the same on the Pats board. Do you have any thoughts on the defensive plays I linked above?

38 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Personally, I think this offense can be very successful next seasons with ASJ at TE, Enunwa playing the hybrid H-Back/WR spot he did in 2015, Robby Anderson as one WR and Adarius/Kearse as the other WR.  With improved center play (through FA or draft) and any QB who is either better then mccown (Cousins) or has a stronger arm and can run (Mayfield/Jackson) this offense can be successful due to the mismatch potential it presents.

With the above group, you can have a good blocking group with Enunwa and ASJ and run the ball, or go 4 wide with a RB that can catch and hit short passes and especially bubble screens, especially with Robby being able to stretch the field on one side.  

I think all of that makes sense. I look forward to see if it plays out like that! Thanks for the input!

[The Crusher]

Hi Dink and Drunk. Welcome to the board.  Are you trying to scam us? If not hello again. If so it will soon be goodbye.

[joewilly12]

Dink and Drunk Mike Maccagnan or John Morton? 

[Integrity28]

What scheme is it when the Patriots OL holds on every play, and is it the same scheme, or similar, to the one that requires teams to be both the Patriots and the refs every time they play? 

[CanadienJetsFan]

Welcome aboard Dink.

Great first thread. I won't dare to comment about schemes for I have zero knowledge on the subject. But it seems as if that coaches who can adjust on the fly are the successful ones. If this is the case,  then why are so many coaches unable to so?

 

[Dink and Drunk]

27 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

Welcome aboard Dink.

Great first thread. I won't dare to comment about schemes for I have zero knowledge on the subject. But it seems as if that coaches who can adjust on the fly are the successful ones. If this is the case,  then why are so many coaches unable to so?

Thanks for the warm welcome. This is a very interesting question. I will give it a shot. I hope others will give input as well.

(Note: some of these observations are from listening to the "GM Street Podcast" by Mike Lombardi. You might recognize his son on the Jets sideline)

I think many coaches learn a particular style of play from a mentor. Sometimes that coach gets in a perfect situation with the right personnel for that scheme, and they look good for a while. But they don't have a deep enough understanding of the "why" behind the scheme to adjust it. When it works it works well, otherwise they fold.

I have some examples of this, but I will start on one to focus things more:

I think that Jason Garrett is doing an extremely poor job in Dallas in a couple of ways. For one thing, he has been showing poor understanding of clock management, risk-reward assessment, etc (many of the things people complain about with Bowles). Still he did well when they had a dominant OL and good running game. Yet Garrett's coaching was exposed in his last game vs. ATL. When his OT Tyron Smith could not play, the DE Adrian Clayborn got 6 sacks! 

You will notice that on 5/6 of those sacks, the back up Chaz Green was left 1 v 1 vs. Clayborn. This is totally unacceptable. He could have put a TE to chip Clayborn before he went out for a pass route. He could have left a RB or FB in the backfield to help block him. He could have put a second tackle on the line to help block him. But Jason Garrett and/or the OC was used to the dominant OL, and were unable to adjust the game plan around having to give the LT help. 

As an outsider, it is hard for me to say why. Any good offensive scheme should allow for this type of flexibility, so I am not sure why they could not make it happen. They could not adjust the to the new OL situation. I thought the Giants had the some problem to start the season, and failed to make the same adjustment. 

 

 

[PCP63]

Some will hate, but always great to see people here knowledgeable about the X's and O's of the game. Welcome.

I quite honestly couldn't tell you what system we run. For every WCO principle we put into practice, Morton runs 20 completely foreign concepts that seem to serve no legitimate purpose. We run far too many mirrored concepts (I personally don't think any team should EVER run mirrored concepts), and spacing seems to be the only play we come out with on 3rd and long. Our intermediate concepts are nonexistent, and our screen game is just atrocious. Nothing more than fluff to try to get fans in the seats.

 

I'm not a fan of Morton in the slightest. Far better than what we've had recently, but I'd take a college guy like Norm Chow any day of the week.

 

Defensively, it seems like we have no real identity. We don't seem to be a spilling team, but we also don't really box. It's just one big cluster****. Our DL can't protect the mike to save their lives, and our LBs, when they do get free, can't tackle worth a damn outside of Davis.

 

What I'd ideally like is an OC that can come out and spread the field. No, not a bunch of fancy zone reads and RPOs, but using technique and leverage to find mismatches, like the Patriots do. On defense, I'd like to base out of a TCU-style 4-2, with a preference to spill the ball to the overhang safeties. Very flexible system with the split field coverages, and you can do a lot more by only having a 6-man front, since you can separate the front from the coverages. They have nothing to do with each other.

[ljr]

DC Kacy Rodgers employs the "Matador" defensive scheme

[Dink and Drunk]

1 hour ago, PCP63 said:

Some will hate, but always great to see people here knowledgeable about the X's and O's of the game. Welcome

Thanks! I thought this was a good post. There was some terminology that I was not familiar with, which is a good thing IMO! I posted some links of articles I have found of the concepts I did not know, but I would still very much like any thoughts you have on it. You have given me some football reading to do! Thanks

1 hour ago, PCP63 said:

For every WCO principle we put into practice, Morton runs 20 completely foreign concepts that seem to serve no legitimate purpose. We run far too many mirrored concepts (I personally don't think any team should EVER run mirrored concepts), and spacing seems to be the only play we come out with on 3rd and long.

completely foreign concepts that seem to serve no legitimate purpose: oh interesting! what sort of thing are you thinking of? 

mirrored concepts: I had to look this up. I found this article on it. What are you thoughts on why it should never be run? I have a hunch (would rather have a read one side to other progression), but want to get your take!

and spacing seems to be the only play we come out with on 3rd and long: Are you referring to the "spacing" route combination? I had to look this one up also. Matt Bowen has this explanation.

1 hour ago, PCP63 said:

Defensively, it seems like we have no real identity. We don't seem to be a spilling team, but we also don't really box. It's just one big cluster****. Our DL can't protect the mike to save their lives, and our LBs, when they do get free, can't tackle worth a damn outside of Davis.

Spilling vs. Box: I had to look this stuff up also :)! Here is an article on Oregon Spilling run defense. I could not exactly what you meant by "we don't really box".

Our DL can't protect the mike to save their lives: Is this similar to the observation I made in those Lewis run clips above? The DL was not occupying enough defenders?

1 hour ago, PCP63 said:

On defense, I'd like to base out of a TCU-style 4-2, with a preference to spill the ball to the overhang safeties. Very flexible system with the split field coverages, and you can do a lot more by only having a 6-man front, since you can separate the front from the coverages. They have nothing to do with each other.

I just found this Grantland piece on it. I will have to read up. You would not stay in 4-2 vs. 2 receiver sets at the NFL, would you? It seems like a recipe to get run over in the running game by any team with 2 good blocking TEs, or a good FB.

[Dink and Drunk]

21 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

However I think they use codes so as not the use the entire play call in 2 minute drill.

I have never noticed. Does McCown wear an armband with play calls on it? It would help communicate which one to run faster. If so, I am surprised they have struggled at times getting plays in. Maybe the OC is just slow deciding which number. I have seen too many time outs burned this way.

[PCP63]

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Thanks! I thought this was a good post. There was some terminology that I was not familiar with, which is a good thing IMO! I posted some links of articles I have found of the concepts I did not know, but I would still very much like any thoughts you have on it. You have given me some football reading to do! Thanks

completely foreign concepts that seem to serve no legitimate purpose: oh interesting! what sort of thing are you thinking of? 

Hard to give specific examples without game film, but I have seen numerous times where a certain route combination called neither stresses zone coverage, nor are they particularly adept at defeating man coverage. 

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

mirrored concepts: I had to look this up. I found this article on it. What are you thoughts on why it should never be run? I have a hunch (would rather have a read one side to other progression), but want to get your take!

Because out relies too much on guessing what coverages the defense is using. Every passing play should have combinations to counter one high, two high, and man. By mirroring the concepts, you're eliminating half of the field. If you have a two high beater to both sides, but the defense rolls into a coverage that locks up that combination, chances are both sides are locked down. But if you have two different types of combinations, that other look will most likely have a coverage you can exploit.

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

and spacing seems to be the only play we come out with on 3rd and long: Are you referring to the "spacing" route combination? I had to look this one up also. Matt Bowen has this explanation.

Yes. On 3rd and long against man coverage, we don't need to complete a 3-yard hitch. We need the intermediate game.

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Spilling vs. Box: I had to look this stuff up also :)! Here is an article on Oregon Spilling run defense. I could not exactly what you meant by "we don't really box".

Boxing is the opposite of spilling. It's a philosophy that seeks to funnel the ballcarrier in between the tackles. Usually, the DTs still spill, but the DEs will usually contain. With the Jets, our DEs don't seem to either contain or wrong-shoulder (spill).

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

Our DL can't protect the mike to save their lives: Is this similar to the observation I made in those Lewis run clips above? The DL was not occupying enough defenders?

Correct. Our DTs haven't been good about stopping the reach-through by the guards.

22 hours ago, Dink and Drunk said:

I just found this Grantland piece on it. I will have to read up. You would not stay in 4-2 vs. 2 receiver sets at the NFL, would you? It seems like a recipe to get run over in the running game by any team with 2 good blocking TEs, or a good FB.

You have to have a fearless strong safety (the "third" safety). And there are certain coverages you can use, such as 2-read, that get 9 in the box. And 12 personnel makes disallowing the reach-through by the guards that much more important, so that the LBs can scrape cleanly to the open gaps.

[RSJ]

One thought on the defensive scheme.
As expected, I noticed that the Jets were in a 3-4 base when the patriots were in 21 personnel (RB, FB, TE). In fact the Jets even brought down the SS into the box as a 8th defender. Typically, you want the DL to 2 gap in a 3-4 system, and ideally occupy 2 blockers. This hopefully allows one of the 2 MLBs to be free for the tackle. The Jets DL was not able to consistently achieve that on these runs, and it allowed the Patriots man blocking scheme to win 1v1 across the board. I will post some Gifs:
21 personel vs. 3-4 SS in box:
[/url] 11 personnel vs. nickel, SS in box (same issue as base):
11 Personnel vs. 4-2 Nickel, safeties close to LOS. MLB beats 1v1 block, yet can't wrap up. #94 and/or #21 blows contain role.
The point of these clips is to show that Bowles might not be running a traditional 3-4 scheme, despite lining up like it. Alternatively, perhaps the DL is failing to execute the 2-gap.  

Nice posts and welcome! I am pretty sure the Jets run a one gap system on defense. What you probably witnessed was a defender losing control of his gap responsibility which has happened quite often this season.


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[RutgersJetFan]

Send nudes.

[Dink and Drunk]

8 hours ago, PCP63 said:

Hard to give specific examples without game film, but I have seen numerous times where a certain route combination called neither stresses zone coverage, nor are they particularly adept at defeating man coverage. 

I noticed a similar thing watching Tampa's and Green Bay's routes. It is almost as if they are completely independent of each-other, each acting in isolation, yet not "stressing the zone" as you say. I actually think Green Bay might feature isolation routes by design, to try to force 1v1 vs. man. It just requires his receivers to beat solo coverage consistently, or for Rodgers to keep plays alive. I am not a fan of it however, and I think Rodgers would put up much better numbers on a different team.

If you notice any particular plays like that next Jets game you watch (or any game for that matter), try to remember the time it happened. I will create clips for you so others can check it out. I really like going back to the tape. Sometimes one observation from someone sparks an entirely different thought in someone else.

8 hours ago, PCP63 said:

You have to have a fearless strong safety (the "third" safety). And there are certain coverages you can use, such as 2-read, that get 9 in the box. And 12 personnel makes disallowing the reach-through by the guards that much more important, so that the LBs can scrape cleanly to the open gaps.

I have seen the safety hybrid referred to as the star. I will have to read up on TCU's more, will get back to you.

[Dink and Drunk]

19 minutes ago, RSJ said:

Nice posts and welcome! I am pretty sure the Jets run a one gap system on defense. What you probably witnessed was a defender losing control of his gap responsibility which has happened quite often this season.

 

Thanks! I did not realize that teams used a one gap system from a balanced 3-4 front (Matt Bowen calls it "3-4 Okie"). I am sure there is plenty of stuff I don't know about.

Historically, 3-4 was two gap system, but perhaps either front can use either system now.

By the way, did those gyfs disappear on your end as well? I can't see them anymore. The original link still works, maybe it is a site error.

[RSJ]

Thanks! I did not realize that teams used a one gap system from a balanced 3-4 front (Matt Bowen calls it "3-4 Okie"). I am sure there is plenty of stuff I don't know about, however.
Historically, 3-4 was two gap, but perhaps either front can use either system now.
By the way, did those gyfs disappear on your end as well? I can't see them anymore. The original link still works, maybe it is a site error.

I believe the Steelers use a one gap 3-4 as well. Its why the Jets and Steelers prefer their weakside ILB to be smaller and more athletic since he is really trying to beat the guard to a spot rather than take him on head on in order to shed. There is obviously more technique involved - but thats the basic philosophy. I also believe that this is why Ealy has performed well for us this year where as the Pats let him go. He is more of a one gap player. I dont know if you could two gap in a 4-3. I have never heard of that as a base system- but who knows.

I know Bowles prefers playing man defense - but like others have said I believe personnel has limited his ability to do this. Zone is generally better for stopping the run, especially on the edges. A man one gap system can be gashed by edge runs that are not contained I always thought.

I am not sure about the gyfs.


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[Dink and Drunk]

7 hours ago, RSJ said:

I believe the Steelers use a one gap 3-4 as well. Its why the Jets and Steelers prefer their weakside ILB to be smaller and more athletic since he is really trying to beat the guard to a spot rather than take him on head on in order to shed. There is obviously more technique involved - but thats the basic philosophy. I also believe that this is why Ealy has performed well for us this year where as the Pats let him go. He is more of a one gap player. I dont know if you could two gap in a 4-3. I have never heard of that as a base system- but who knows.

I know Bowles prefers playing man defense - but like others have said I believe personnel has limited his ability to do this. Zone is generally better for stopping the run, especially on the edges. A man one gap system can be gashed by edge runs that are not contained I always thought.

 

I am going to post Matt Bowen's 3-4 and 4-3 articles as a reference, because I am going to be using his language to below. Based on what many have already said, I am not sure that Bowen's overview actually covers the diversity of defensive schemes in the NFL, but it still may be helpful terminologically.

Bowen describes a "3-4 Eagle", where the weak side ILB appears to be responsible for the A gap or "scrape" (it appears "scrape" is for sweeps). Perhaps this is the one-gap 3-4 that you were referring to. It actually looks pretty similar, but it would not surprise me if there were multiple 3-4 one gaps. I will try to re-watch those the gyfs as if Jets were running a "3-4 Eagle". They should work now as external links... If you find a different write up and explanation of the one gap 3-4 let me know! I find this stuff super interesting.

I agree about Ealy: The patriots really want DL players to be able to both 1 and 2 gap, and also really like DE players that can play both DE as well as OLB/EDGE. On defense (as well as offense) the Patriots want players with flexible skill sets, to enable schematic flexibility. 

I believe the Patriots use a 3-4/4-3 hybrid that sometimes splits two-gapping and one-gapping on different sides of the line. It is not clear if to consider it a "4-3 under" or "3-4 under" because these two "different" systems are actually quite similar positionally. The result is that the OL never know which DL players are going to shoot a gap, or attempt to occupy multiple blockers and maximum space. I am not sure if the Patriots ever two-gap from a traditional 4-3 look. The info below suggests it is possible.

@PCP63  was describing a TCU scheme where the DL was two-gapping in a base 4-2, and also described how a 3rd hybrid safety sometimes help in run support. If it is possible in a 4-2, it seems just as possible if you replace that hybrid safety with an athletic OLB and call it a 4-3. Perhaps this is a over simplification.