Interesting Francessa points

[UnitedWhofans]

Most of you will probably disagree with this but I'll post it anyway.

- Said that he has heard from people that they compare the Jets defense at this stage to what Seattle's defense was when they were just getting started. That the potential for a fantastic defense is there.

- Said that safeties are now VERY important in the way modern defenses are played, and that the Jets got two studs.

- Said that he sees an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team. That the franchise is in a good place.

- Said they needed to find a QB otherwise they're going nowhere. That Hackenberg was a wasted pick but a lot of GMs have "blind spots" for guys.

 

[munchmemory]

I'll buy into the first point only if we magically draft guys who play like Bobby Wagner and Richard Sherman.  No easy feat.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

I'll buy into the first point only if we magically draft guys who play like Bobby Wagner and Richard Sherman.  No easy feat.

Demario Davis has been solid this year and Darron Lee has developed nicely in his second year. So I think we could be okay there.

Sherman is another story.

[Beerfish]

Safeties are more important than they once were, however if you do not have a good rest of the roster teams will just schema round them.  Our young safeties have to be near lock down in coverage and make plays to be considered studs.

Re our soon to be all world defense, we need at least one top end CB we have to get a really good pass rusher.

The team as it is now has:

- No starting QB

- A bad oline that require a minimum of LT and C

- Mediocre RBS

- One 'threat' Wr and not much else.

- No pass rushing OLB

- Badly in need of a starting CB

- Unbelievably might even need a Dlineman if we dump mo wilk as we should

If we go to the lengths we are going to have to go to get the franchise QB by trading up kiss goodbye high picks for about two years at least.

This team has filled in some holes in some positions but is a long ways away from contending.

[BCJet]

9 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Most of you will probably disagree with this but I'll post it anyway.

- Said that he has heard from people that they compare the Jets defense at this stage to what Seattle's defense was when they were just getting started. That the potential for a fantastic defense is there.

- Said that safeties are now VERY important in the way modern defenses are played, and that the Jets got two studs.

- Said that he sees an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team. That the franchise is in a good place.

- Said they needed to find a QB otherwise they're going nowhere. That Hackenberg was a wasted pick but a lot of GMs have "blind spots" for guys.

 

There is a solid core of young players who care about winning and give max effort - something we havent had in a long time.  Adams, Maye, DD, Lee and leo are all players who can be cornerstones of the defense for 5-7 years.  Yes we need to sprinkle in other guys (Ealy?) but there absolutely is a core here of guys who want to get better and will.  What adams and maye have done as rookies is very difficult in the NFL as safety isnt usually a plug and play position.

I would like to see us find a young center,  RB to pair with McGuire and a QB (cousins or mayfield) to lead the offense with Adarius and solidify the identity of the offense.

[munchmemory]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Demario Davis has been solid this year and Darron Lee has developed nicely in his second year. So I think we could be okay there.

Sherman is another story.

With respect, Davis and Lee can't shine Wagner's shoes.  He's one of the hardest hitting, most intimidating, LBs ever.  Guy is a freak.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

Safeties are more important than they once were, however if you do not have a good rest of the roster teams will just schema round them.  Our young safeties have to be near lock down in coverage and make plays to be considered studs.

Re our soon to be all world defense, we need at least one top end CB we have to get a really good pass rusher.

The team as it is now has:

- No starting QB

- A mediocre oline that require a minimum of LG and C

- No bellwether RBs

- One 'threat' Wr and  a couple of possession receivers

- No pass rushing OLB

- Badly in need of a healthy CBs.

 

Fixed it for you

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, munchmemory said:

With respect, Davis and Lee can't shine Wagner's shoes.  He's one of the hardest hitting, most intimidating, LBs ever.  Guy is a freak.

Not right now. 

[munchmemory]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Not right now. 

Guess what I was trying to say is that building a Seattle-style defense is easy to say.  But finding players like Sherman, Wagner, and a few others is not such an easy task.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, munchmemory said:

Guess what I was trying to say is that building a Seattle-style defense is easy to say.  But finding players like Sherman, Wagner, and a few others is not such an easy task.

Yeah I know. But I think we have a plan. Will it work? Who the **** knows?

[shawn306]

I don't about them becoming a Seattle like defense, they still need to get a CB but they are getting better.

My biggest hope though come next year is that they finally start spending some premium picks on the offensive guys like a QB or a Stud WR.

It is not going to happen overnight but there are signs to me at least that show they are building something

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, shawn306 said:

I don't about them becoming a Seattle like defense, they still need to get a CB but they are getting better.

My biggest hope though come next year is that they finally start spending some premium picks on the offensive guys like a QB or a Stud WR.

It is not going to happen overnight but there are signs to me at least that show they are building something

QB they need, but that depends on what happens in FA.  I can also see OL particularly C.

Personally, I like their receiving corps. 

[Adoni Beast]

I agree with all points actually.

I think safeties are more important than they used to be, and we have 2 studs.

We have the foundation for a great defense, but we still need two MAJOR pieces (edge and long term cb)

We aren't going anywhere without a quarterback, and Hackenberg was a wasted pick, but all gm's make bad ones. Ozzie Newsom the darling GM in every scouts eyes, drafted Kyle Boller in the first. Legend John Elway traded up to draft Paxton Lynch in the first. It happens.

But...Ozzie and Elway have Lombardi Trophies. Mac needs to, has to, at all costs get us a quarterback. He swung and missed badly with Hacknberg. Its not like hes been starting and just not very good. He cant even see the field. He passed on Watson and Mahomes cause "safety YOLO" and didnt break the bank for Goff or Wentz when he could have.

Are you gonna get overcharged for trading up for a franchise quarterback? Of course. But the juice is worth it. 

[shawn306]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

QB they need, but that depends on what happens in FA.  I can also see OL particularly C.

Personally, I like their receiving corps. 

They still need a #1 IMHO. A Dez Bryant, Julio Jones type of guy.

Ideal for me would be to be able to find both the QB and WR in the draft but that is pretty unlikely. I would love to see a combo like Derek Carr and Amari Cooper that could be around for 10 years.

Can't argue on the O-Line that needs to be addressed as well

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, shawn306 said:

They still need a #1 IMHO. A Dez Bryant, Julio Jones type of guy.

Ideal for me would be to be able to find both the QB and WR in the draft but that is pretty unlikely. I would love to see a combo like Derek Carr and Amari Cooper that could be around for 10 years.

Can't argue on the O-Line that needs to be addressed as well

I really dont see that type of guy in this draft. Maybe Calvin Ridley but that's a stretch. This is not a good draft for Offensive playmakers IMO

[UnitedWhofans]

7 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

I agree with all points actually.

I think safeties are more important than they used to be, and we have 2 studs.

We have the foundation for a great defense, but we still need two MAJOR pieces (edge and long term cb)

Are you gonna get overcharged for trading up for a franchise quarterback? Of course. But the juice is worth it. 

CB and QB may be the positions to attack in FA. Trumaine Johnson from the Rams is going to be the big target out there.

[#27TheDominator]

23 minutes ago, BCJet said:

There is a solid core of young players who care about winning and give max effort - something we havent had in a long time.  Adams, Maye, DD, Lee and leo are all players who can be cornerstones of the defense for 5-7 years.  Yes we need to sprinkle in other guys (Ealy?) but there absolutely is a core here of guys who want to get better and will.  What adams and maye have done as rookies is very difficult in the NFL as safety isnt usually a plug and play position.

I would like to see us find a young center,  RB to pair with McGuire and a QB (cousins or mayfield) to lead the offense with Adarius and solidify the identity of the offense.

What makes you list Stewart as a "leader" on offense?  He has 5 catches for 36 yards.  Robbie Anderson and Kearse are obviously much better at this point and there is some question if he is even ahead of Hansen.  

The problem with this "young core" is that there aren't that many good players under contract.  2 stud safeties?  Eh.  Even if I grant you that, there are no good CBs under contract for 2018.  Davis and Ealy are both FAs.  Who are you putting opposite Jenkins?   

On offense we all know we need a QB.  We also will have to sign ASJ, Johnson, Qvale and probably Enunwa just to get back where we are right now.  Meanwhile, Kelvin Beachum starts at LT and Carpenter will be heading into his final year.

[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

.  The problem with this "young core" is that there aren't that many good players under contract.  2 stud safeties?  Eh.  Even if I grant you that, there are no good CBs under contract for 2018.  Davis and Ealy are both FAs.  Who are you putting opposite Jenkins?   

On offense we all know we need a QB.  We also will have to sign ASJ, Johnson, Qvale and probably Enunwa just to get back where we are right now.  Meanwhile, Kelvin Beachum starts at LT and Carpenter will be heading into his final year.

I would dump Johnson and draft a center. Billy Price out of TOSU is the top center in this draft. Maybe Qvale too and shift either Shell or Qvale to LG in 2019.

A healthy Dylan Donahue will go opposite Jenkins, I think. He played well when he was healthy, but we shall see.

I like Beachum and Shell.

Enunwa and Davis should come on the cheap. 

CB is the position to attack in FA. 

[dbatesman]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What makes you list Stewart as a "leader" on offense?  He has 5 catches for 36 yards.  Robbie Anderson and Kearse are obviously much better at this point and there is some question if he is even ahead of Hansen.  

The problem with this "young core" is that there aren't that many good players under contract.  2 stud safeties?  Eh.  Even if I grant you that, there are no good CBs under contract for 2018.  Davis and Ealy are both FAs.  Who are you putting opposite Jenkins?   

On offense we all know we need a QB.  We also will have to sign ASJ, Johnson, Qvale and probably Enunwa just to get back where we are right now.  Meanwhile, Kelvin Beachum starts at LT and Carpenter will be heading into his final year.

Not sure if you were paying attention or not, but there's an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Not sure if you were paying attention or not, but there's an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team

And $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. He also mentioned that, that we were "a zillion" dollars under the cap

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I would dump Johnson and draft a center. Maybe Qvale too and shift either Shell or Qvale to LG in 2019.

A healthy Dylan Donahue will go opposite Jenkins, I think. He played well when he was healthy, but we shall see.

I like Beachum and Shell

Dylan Donahue?  Maybe you should go back and watch how he performed in a game first. He supposedly looked good early in camp, but never looked good in a game.  Which of his 5 tackles to remember as "playing well"  You wan to move one of your substandard RTs to LG?  I might agree with that plan if it also involved replacing them with a serious tackle prospect.  Also, you have to resign Qvale before you can move him inside.

[The Crusher]

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Not sure if you were paying attention or not, but there's an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team

Its true if you ignore the fact a lot of those guys are not under contract.  So basically we are better right now than we will be year end.

[UnitedWhofans]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Dylan Donahue?  Maybe you should go back and watch how he performed in a game first. He supposedly looked good early in camp, but never looked good in a game.  Which of his 5 tackles to remember as "playing well"  You wan to move one of your substandard RTs to LG?  I might agree with that plan if it also involved replacing them with a serious tackle prospect.  Also, you have to resign Qvale before you can move him inside.

I had read that he had gotten a couple of pressures on opposing QBs in his playing time. So the potential is there.

BTW, that tackle moving inside would come the year after when Carpenter is gone. So that is not related to next year, that's jsut me getting carried away

[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Its true if you ignore the fact a lot of those guys are not under contract.  So basically we are better right now than we will be year end.

Its too bad we have no money. Oh wait...

[The Crusher]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Its too bad we have no money. Oh wait...

We had money year one too. That got us one game short of the playoffs and two years of purgatory... ahh errr I mean more rebuilding.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, The Crusher said:

We had money year one too. That got us one game short of the playoffs and two year of purgatory... ahh errr I mean more rebuilding.

I know. But we had more holes then. WE're in a much better position in terms of age and the market is better. Revis was the top corner on that market. This year it will be Trumaine Johnson

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I know. But we had more holes then. WE're in a much better position in terms of age and the market is better. Revis was the top corner on that market. This year it will be Trumaine Johnson

I agree we certainly have some younger players and a few look promising. yet, at the end of the year we will have work to do just to keep ourselves where we are right now. I guess it just bugs me it took three years to get here when it probably should have took one.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, The Crusher said:

I agree we certainly have some younger players and a few look promising. yet, at the end of the year we will have work to do just to keep ourselves where we are right now. I guess it just bugs me it took three years to get here when it probably should have took one.

I agree. But I put that more on Woody, not on Macc, given past history. Now @Sperm Edwards will disagree, but history and sample size leans in that direction

[drsamuel84]

59 minutes ago, shawn306 said:

They still need a #1 IMHO. A Dez Bryant, Julio Jones type of guy.

Ideal for me would be to be able to find both the QB and WR in the draft but that is pretty unlikely. I would love to see a combo like Derek Carr and Amari Cooper that could be around for 10 years.

Can't argue on the O-Line that needs to be addressed as well

See wr is actually one of the areas where I don't think we need to break the bank.  I think you can win with a good solid receiving corps.  Not saying we don't need another WR (don't forget about Enunwa) but I don't think it has to be Julio Jones if we can build a team with Robby, Enunwa, maybe keep Kearse/Kerley and hopefully one of the draft picks pans out (Hansen/Stewart) with ASJ I think that's plenty of offense  With all the holes I'd rather spend money on a CB, Edge Rusher or on the o-line before WR.

[drsamuel84]

9 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I know. But we had more holes then. 

I also think there was a mandate from ownership to fix the mess after the Idzik debacle meaning they knew there was a good chance they were mortgaging their future for short term success but that's probably what the owner wanted hence bringing back Revis.  That's not so say I want to wait another 5 years to turn this thing around but I do think there will be a much more methodical approach to how the FO does things this time around.

[Paradis]

50 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I really dont see that type of guy in this draft. Maybe Calvin Ridley but that's a stretch. This is not a good draft for Offensive playmakers IMO

Apologies for wearing the  "draft snob" hat, but at this moment, it definitely fits.

Not a good draft for offensive playmakers?.... and we're supposed to take your prognostications about anything draft related seriously? 

Let's review:

QBs: Although not the fabled HOF class we thought in the summer, there's 4-5 guys who are being graded as Franchise QBs. That's substantial.

RBs: somehow seem poised to overtake the 2017 class. Talent everywhere.

TE: Not the same name power as 2017, but there's 5-6 guys with rounds 1-4 grades on them. That's awesome

WRs: No Julio, but there's a lot of uber-productive Keenan Allen type WRs that won't make it out of round 2

Oline: one area could swing either way depending on senior bowl/Combine/workouts

 

It's actually the most balanced draft on offense in years.

[Stark]

11 minutes ago, drsamuel84 said:

See QB is actually one of the areas where I don't think we need to break the bank.  I think you can win with a good solid receiving corps.  Not saying we don't need another WR (don't forget about Enunwa) but I don't think it has to be Julio Jones if we can build a team with Robby, Enunwa, maybe keep Kearse/Kerley and hopefully one of the draft picks pans out (Hansen/Stewart) with ASJ I think that's plenty of offense  With all the holes I'd rather spend money on a CB, Edge Rusher or on the o-line before WR.

If we aren't going to buy a top QB then we will need to trade up to get the top QB on our board. The fact is we need a legit QB. We have needed a legit QB for a long, long, long, long time. This team keeps trying to outsmart the room and takes too many half measures when it comes to QB. It is why we are usually in the bottom half of the league, drafting near the top in the draft. 

[Stark]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Apologies for wearing the  "draft snob" hat, but at this moment, it definitely fits.

Not a good draft for offensive playmakers?.... and we're supposed to take your prognostications about anything draft related seriously? 

Let's review:

QBs: Although not the fabled HOF class we thought in the summer, there's 4-5 guys who are being graded as Franchise QBs. That's substantial.

RBs: somehow seem poised to overtake the 2017 class. Talent everywhere.

TE: Not the same name power as 2017, but there's 5-6 guys with rounds 1-4 grades on them. That's awesome

WRs: No Julio, but there's a lot of uber-productive Keenan Allen type WRs that won't make it out of round 2

Oline: one area could swing either way depending on senior bowl/Combine/workouts

 

It's actually the most balanced draft on offense in years.

Yes, there will be plenty of players to take on the offensive side of the ball. Agree with all of this @Paradis

 

[BurnleyJet]

It makes me laugh in the modern NFL. Only a few postions really matter, the rest are fillers. We need a QB!!!!! The rest you can plug in. Draft a fooking QB and not in the 4th or 2nd. Go sell the fooking farm get one!!!!  I don't care if we don't have a 1st round pick for years if we get a real QB!

[BCJet]

32 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Not sure if you were paying attention or not, but there's an infrastructure in place that can grow into a solid team

This statement embodies exactly the problem with Jet fans - the inability to separate the fact that we do have a good core with the fact that we dont have a QB, those things for anyone who doesnt care more about being "right" about mac then actually having the Jets win are easily able to be separated.

Do I want an edge rusher, absolutely.  Do I want a QB other then Josh McCown, yes I do.  Do I think Hackenberg was a terrible pick, yep.  In hindsight should we have taken Vic Beasley over Leo, probably. 

But at the same time I am able to see that Mac hit on 2 FA pickups in Ealy and ASJ who could be contributors on this team for the next 5 years.  I didnt jump to call Lee a bust after 20 games and it seems now that he could be a very strong player.  Both our safeties are playing at elite levels for rookies (for rookies - they arent Earl Thomas today), McGuire looks like an NFL player who was picked in the 6th round and Robby looks like an NFL player as an UDFA.

I also saw Mac acquire DD who is a good young player (not ray lewis - i just said good) and get a second round pick for a FA that we werent going to sign.

John Elway traded up for Paxton Lynch and got a 5 year extension.  Ozzie Newsome spent a first rounder on Matt Elam who is out of the league.  Every team in the league passed on Dak Prescott. Ted Thompson doesnt have a good Offensive line.  The job of a GM is extremely difficult and no one hits on every pick.

You can dislike Mac and say we need a QB, but the fact that we have a good, young core on defense is just that - a fact.