5 Jets deserving of extensions before the offseason

[Sperm Edwards]

57 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Of course waiting until the end of the season FAs will be at their highest price. I'm curious as to what type of deals you think these players would take now as opposed to after the season. My point is I don't think the contract now will be that much different than the 2 months prior to FA. I also think their value could even be lower given the harder schedule we are going to face.

Beachum was an injury risk who played well prior to his injury. Those are the types of players you have to gamble on because most good LT never hit FA. I get people don't like the Winters contract but I also don't think that deal prevented us from signing anyone last offseason and I don't believe it will prevent us from signing anyone this offseason. It's Woody's money, unless that deal hurt us in some other way I could careless what the amount is really for.

Whatever it is, the only way it will be the same or less is if nobody else wants the player. In some cases, it ends up being far greater than it would have been.

The "It's only Woody's money" is a silly, tiresome, and frankly mindless argument. No fan cares about his bank account, and no fan has ever cared about his bank account. It's all about the flexibility that the team is afforded to improve it in the future. Know what I don't care about with regard to Woody's checking account? Firing Bowles and Maccagnan even though their contracts are fully guaranteed. I don't give a crap because there's no coach/front office salary cap. Just like it doesn't matter how many rookie-minimum contracts he eats, because only the top 51 highest ones count; we could cut 20 of those, have Woody pay them, and it makes zero difference in whom we could or couldn't afford to sign or lock up later.

The truth is, the cap room that we have this year is going to go fast. There are a lot of teams with a lot of space, so there will be - as there always is - a surprising amount of inflation; as a result, players like Winters - who should have previously been locked up in the $4m range, with his guaranteed portion ending right around now - costs nearly double that with another $8m guaranteed (and may not even be worth the lower amount). 

You're especially going to see it go by fast when he drops $25-30m/year on a veteran QB or two. Then in the coming years after that, the likes of Leo will need extensions in the $20m/year range, among other FAs that are picked up to save his own skin for long enough to secure an extension that the Johnson brothers are likely dumb enough to award him.

[bla bla bla]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The "It's only Woody's money" is a silly, tiresome, and frankly mindless argument. No fan cares about his bank account, and no fan has ever cared about his bank account. It's all about the flexibility that the team is afforded to improve it in the future. Know what I don't care about with regard to Woody's checking account? Firing Bowles and Maccagnan even though their contracts are fully guaranteed. I don't give a crap because there's no coach/front office salary cap. Just like it doesn't matter how many rookie-minimum contracts he eats, because only the top 51 highest ones count; we could cut 20 of those, have Woody pay them, and it makes zero difference in whom we could or couldn't afford to sign or lock up later.

Has Winter's contract prevented us from signing anyone else? If the answer is no then I'm not sure what the big deal is. 

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You're especially going to see it go by fast when he drops $25-30m/year on a veteran QB or two. Then in the coming years after that, the likes of Leo will need extensions in the $20m/year range, among other FAs that are picked up to save his own skin for long enough to secure an extension that the Johnson brothers are likely dumb enough to award him.

Which is all the more reason, if we go the FA QB route, to heavily frontload a contract so that we will have the space in later years. Leo won't be a FA until 2020, he's likely the first big deal we'll need to dish out of our own players. The only issue with cap we should have would be if the NFL loses so much money that the salary cap decreases. I'd have to assume given the contracts Macc has given out, any FA we sign will be on glorified 2 or 3 year deals (except a QB) so we'll have the choice between keeping the aging player or cutting them.

[Larz]

davis is the only one you need to worry about competition for

the rest you can sign easily

[bla bla bla]

28 minutes ago, Larz said:

davis is the only one you need to worry about competition for

the rest you can sign easily

I think ASJ is going to have a lot of teams interested in him, my guess is we franchise tag him. 

[Lith]

25 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I think ASJ is going to have a lot of teams interested in him, my guess is we franchise tag him. 

The guy is having a nice comeback year, and I hope we re-sign him.  But he is still just averaging about 35 receiving yards per game.  Franchise tag for a TE this year is $9.8MM.  Probably will be over $10MM next season. 

I can't see us tagging him for that kind of money.   

[bla bla bla]

26 minutes ago, Lith said:

The guy is having a nice comeback year, and I hope we re-sign him.  But he is still just averaging about 35 receiving yards per game.  Franchise tag for a TE this year is $9.8MM.  Probably will be over $10MM next season. 

I can't see us tagging him for that kind of money.   

I think he'll ultimately get signed bust I think we tag him so he can't talk to other teams

[Tony MaC]

ASJ is in his prime and is fairly productive but said production isn't anything legendary; he may not even break 500 yards after all is said and done. That said, you have to like his potential on the team going forward, especially if they ever figure out the QB position.

I think there should be a mutual interest in his coming to an agreement. The Jets don't want to part with a solid contributor to their offense and ASJ probably doesn't want to leave the place that gave him his second chance unless somebody pays him considerably more than the Jets would offer. (and unless they low ball the hell out of him I don't think anybody will) This should get done well before free agency hits.  (4 years, 32 million, 13 guaranteed)

 

Claiborne... he was exactly what I'd expect, athletic, usually provides good coverage but a bit inconsistent and easily nicked up. My hope is that Maccagnan sets a price and sticks with it, but something tells me he competes against himself a bit here. He doesn't like to go into the draft with a spot empty and I bet he slightly overvalues Clay and makes sure he'll be around. (3 years, 30 million, 10 million guaranteed)

 

Davis has been a huge surprise, how many guys fail to impress a new coaching staff, get let go, and then return only to prosper in the same system they failed in last time? He's not only shown Mac signed his predecessor and former teammate David Harris to a 3 year 21 million dollar contract. Given the fact that he's filled his spot in nearly everyway, I will not be shocked if he got something close to that.  (3 years, 22 million, 14 guaranteed)

 

Catanzaro isn't anything special, and should be an easy re-sign. Plan on providing competition for him in the next year, but give him a moderate raise if he outlasts whoever that is again. (1 year, 2 million, 500k guaranteed)

 

Ealy's had some highlights, but shouldn't be signed for much more than any other backup should. (2 years, 7 million, 3 guaranteed)

[bla bla bla]

7 minutes ago, Tony MaC said:

ASJ is in his prime and is fairly productive but said production isn't anything legendary; he may not even break 500 yards after all is said and done. That said, you have to like his potential on the team going forward, especially if they ever figure out the QB position.

I think there should be a mutual interest in his coming to an agreement. The Jets don't want to part with a solid contributor to their offense and ASJ probably doesn't want to leave the place that gave him his second chance unless somebody pays him considerably more than the Jets would offer. (and unless they low ball the hell out of him I don't think anybody will) This should get done well before free agency hits.  (4 years, 32 million, 13 guaranteed)

 

Claiborne... he was exactly what I'd expect, athletic, usually provides good coverage but a bit inconsistent and easily nicked up. My hope is that Maccagnan sets a price and sticks with it, but something tells me he competes against himself a bit here. He doesn't like to go into the draft with a spot empty and I bet he slightly overvalues Clay and makes sure he'll be around. (3 years, 30 million, 10 million guaranteed)

 

Davis has been a huge surprise, how many guys fail to impress a new coaching staff, get let go, and then return only to prosper in the same system they failed in last time? He's not only shown Mac signed his predecessor and former teammate David Harris to a 3 year 21 million dollar contract. Given the fact that he's filled his spot in nearly everyway, I will not be shocked if he got something close to that.  (3 years, 22 million, 14 guaranteed)

 

Catanzaro isn't anything special, and should be an easy re-sign. Plan on providing competition for him in the next year, but give him a moderate raise if he outlasts whoever that is again. (1 year, 2 million, 500k guaranteed)

 

Ealy's had some highlights, but shouldn't be signed for much more than any other backup should. (2 years, 7 million, 3 guaranteed)

This is right around where I think most the contracts will fall. That's higher for Davis than I was hoping but lower for Ealy so I'd be okay with it. I think we'll be able to resign Claiborne, Ealy, Enunwa, ASJ, and Davis for $35M

[Tony MaC]

21 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

This is right around where I think most the contracts will fall. That's higher for Davis than I was hoping but lower for Ealy so I'd be okay with it. I think we'll be able to resign Claiborne, Ealy, Enunwa, ASJ, and Davis for $35M

I could be dead wrong about Davis, but I just remembered that there's a precedent for this and I'm willing to bet Davis's people will notice it. If he makes less it wont be much, maybe just above 6 million a year? This is basically his cash in moment- the same can be said for Clay and ASJ.

Ealy's fun to watch but how much is a d-lineman that's elite at batting balls away but not much else worth?

[Tony MaC]

Oh yeah, don't forget Wes Johnson who despite being a weak link on the line will probably be back.

I think its safe to say he isn't the Jets Center of the future, he's not a good run blocker and isn't much better in pass protection. But once again Mac doesn't like leaving spots completely open during the draft and he is at the very least a good backup option. (2 years, 5.5 million, 2.5 million guaranteed)

 

[Sperm Edwards]

19 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Has Winter's contract prevented us from signing anyone else? If the answer is no then I'm not sure what the big deal is. 

Which is all the more reason, if we go the FA QB route, to heavily frontload a contract so that we will have the space in later years. Leo won't be a FA until 2020, he's likely the first big deal we'll need to dish out of our own players. The only issue with cap we should have would be if the NFL loses so much money that the salary cap decreases. I'd have to assume given the contracts Macc has given out, any FA we sign will be on glorified 2 or 3 year deals (except a QB) so we'll have the choice between keeping the aging player or cutting them.

Lol

Mathematically, front-loading and back-loading contracts makes no difference if the signing is a good one. If he's a bad signing, guaranteeing him high dollars for "only" 2 years is still a huge waste since it didn't go towards players who were part of short and long term solutions. There is no silver lining in signing and drafting bad players and you don't get a refund.

It's not the first time I've read this "idea" lol. I think some fans actually believe it takes more intelligence - which they of course possess - to conclude that putting more of a contract's cap hits in its early year(s) means the cap numbers are lower in the later years. Like wow, call the Nobel Society -- we have this year's economics winner here!

Then comes the baseless extra credit award to Maccagnan for Jackie Davidson negotiating and constructing contracts that mostly contain the same guaranteed years that every other team customarily hands out to similarly valued players. Crediting Maccagnan for the likes of signing off on "only" guaranteeing an obviously declined-skills, 31 year-old David Harris 2 years at top 5 ILB money, or guaranteeing the injured Mo Wilkerson 2 years at #1 money for his position - when he already had him on successive 1 year guarantees at the same amount - is like crediting a someone for not biting a bowling ball.

[bla bla bla]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Mathematically, front-loading and back-loading contracts makes no difference if the signing is a good one. If he's a bad signing, guaranteeing him high dollars for "only" 2 years is still a huge waste since it didn't go towards players who were part of short and long term solutions. There is no silver lining in signing and drafting bad players and you don't get a refund

So you were in favor of either extending Winters prior to his season last year or you had someone else on the radar for G. 

I have to say I didn't think Winters was worth extending until I saw him play last year and I must have missed a trade or FA who would have been a better or cheaper option. As for the rest, I completely agree. A bad signing is a bad signing no matter how you slice it, what I'm saying is that Macc built the contracts from year 1 so that all the vets could be cut when it was time to start the rebuild.

Keeping in mind we had the worst secondary in football, an aging roster with Mangold/Brick/Harris and an unknown QB in Geno, most people wanted to see one year of Geno and knowing we couldn't trade up to the top 2 picks to land Winston or Mariota; what route would you have preferred Macc take year 1? What do you believe would have been the right moves to make?

 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

So you were in favor of either extending Winters prior to his season last year or you had someone else on the radar for G. 

I have to say I didn't think Winters was worth extending until I saw him play last year and I must have missed a trade or FA who would have been a better or cheaper option. As for the rest, I completely agree. A bad signing is a bad signing no matter how you slice it, what I'm saying is that Macc built the contracts from year 1 so that all the vets could be cut when it was time to start the rebuild.

Keeping in mind we had the worst secondary in football, an aging roster with Mangold/Brick/Harris and an unknown QB in Geno, most people wanted to see one year of Geno and knowing we couldn't trade up to the top 2 picks to land Winston or Mariota; what route would you have preferred Macc take year 1? What do you believe would have been the right moves to make?

 

If we were going to extend Winters it should have been done before the Winter.

He didn't suddenly become worthy of extending after he went on IR. Stop.

You keep repeating the nonsense that "Macc built the contracts [in such a way bla bla bla]".

Again, he doesn't build the contracts, and there is nothing unique about the way they're built. They're built with as much $ as the player can get from any team. His loyal fans keep putting this in such a way as though anyone was going to offer Ryan Fitzpatrick or Matt Forte or Antonio Cromartie 3 or 4 years of guaranteed money. Why does he get special credit for not doing something that never entered anyone's mind to do. 

It's a false narrative to grade him on a curve and again, it's like trying to credit a person for not knowing better than to bite a bowling ball. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

If we were going to extend Winters it should have been done before the Winter.

He didn't suddenly become worthy of extending after he went on IR. Stop.

You keep repeating the nonsense that "Macc built the contracts [in such a way bla bla bla]".

Again, he doesn't build the contracts, and there is nothing unique about the way they're built. They're built with as much $ as the player can get from any team. His loyal fans keep putting this in such a way as though anyone was going to offer Ryan Fitzpatrick or Matt Forte or Antonio Cromartie 3 or 4 years of guaranteed money. Why does he get special credit for not doing something that never entered anyone's mind to do. 

It's a false narrative to grade him on a curve and again, it's like trying to credit him for not biting into a bowling ball. 

Winters was extended. He was signed to a 3 year deal. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Winters was extended. He was signed to a 3 year deal. 

lol

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

lol

Whatever. If you think Macc should be graded badly, I would like to ask why you think so many people kind of like him and what he's done. WHy do you think people seemingly go out of their way to defend him? Why the media doesnt go after him that much?

[Larz]

20 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I think ASJ is going to have a lot of teams interested in him, my guess is we franchise tag him. 

I think he can be had cheap.  He has formed a close bond to the jets coaches and staff.  They threw him a lifeline

They only need to be competitive to sign him.  He would be a low priority for me

[bla bla bla]

On 11/25/2017 at 1:51 PM, Larz said:

I think he can be had cheap.  He has formed a close bond to the jets coaches and staff.  They threw him a lifeline

They only need to be competitive to sign him.  He would be a low priority for me

I think he will be signed long term but I think we also franchise tag him so he can't talk to other teams, unless we get a deal worked out beforehand. I don't think we want him to talk to other teams regardless. The franchise tags would be a last minute hit before FA.

[bla bla bla]

On 11/25/2017 at 1:31 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

If we were going to extend Winters it should have been done before the Winter.

He didn't suddenly become worthy of extending after he went on IR. Stop.

You keep repeating the nonsense that "Macc built the contracts [in such a way bla bla bla]".

Again, he doesn't build the contracts, and there is nothing unique about the way they're built. They're built with as much $ as the player can get from any team. His loyal fans keep putting this in such a way as though anyone was going to offer Ryan Fitzpatrick or Matt Forte or Antonio Cromartie 3 or 4 years of guaranteed money. Why does he get special credit for not doing something that never entered anyone's mind to do. 

It's a false narrative to grade him on a curve and again, it's like trying to credit a person for not knowing better than to bite a bowling ball. 

Players don't get resigned midseason, it just doesn't happen often in the NFL. So it's either before the season or after the season, I think it was smart to wait and watch Winters play before resigning him but that's just me. As for signing him once he went on IR, it seems to me like it makes sense to wait until that player is healthy again, but again that's my opinion you can have a different one.

You keep dipping around my questions, with the roster we had where would you have turned for QB? I was under the impression that the GM did make the contracts, if I'm wrong please correct me. It seemed like a foregone conclusion that they wanted to give Geno one more shot year 1 since we couldn't get Mariota or Winston. We saw the best statistical year from a QB with Fitz, it wasn't outrageous to think year 2 could be a playoff push. I'm not using those vet contracts as positives for Macc, I'm saying they don't really hurt us. The only argument you can make is that trying to see if Geno had anything is what hurt us, we should have started the rebuild without him. 

I think this roster from an age/potential stand point is better than the roster Rex left us with and I think it's a better environment for a QB. I'm not sure Wentz would have the same success if we gave up what the Eagles had to in order to get him. They have a top OL and solid all around weapons and a good defense. I'm also not convinced that Gailey would have gotten the most out of him, I do trust Morton more in that respect. Macc will be graded heavily on this offseason and his ability to get a QB. I'll wait to pass judgement until after next season. 

[#27TheDominator]

I like ASJ and Davis, but neither of them should get $8M per from us IMO.

[MaxAF]

Do the Jets keep Jermaine Kearse? I think it will cost the Jets 5 million 2018. He's playing for 2 million this year.

[MDL_JET]

4 minutes ago, MaxAF said:

Do the Jets keep Jermaine Kearse? I think it will cost the Jets 5 million 2018. He's playing for 2 million this year.

I would hope so. He's a good reliable WR and seems to do well in this system. Unless they get a guy like Allen Robinson. 

[Sperm Edwards]

15 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Players don't get resigned midseason, it just doesn't happen often in the NFL. So it's either before the season or after the season, I think it was smart to wait and watch Winters play before resigning him but that's just me. As for signing him once he went on IR, it seems to me like it makes sense to wait until that player is healthy again, but again that's my opinion you can have a different one.

You keep dipping around my questions, with the roster we had where would you have turned for QB? I was under the impression that the GM did make the contracts, if I'm wrong please correct me. It seemed like a foregone conclusion that they wanted to give Geno one more shot year 1 since we couldn't get Mariota or Winston. We saw the best statistical year from a QB with Fitz, it wasn't outrageous to think year 2 could be a playoff push. I'm not using those vet contracts as positives for Macc, I'm saying they don't really hurt us. The only argument you can make is that trying to see if Geno had anything is what hurt us, we should have started the rebuild without him. 

I think this roster from an age/potential stand point is better than the roster Rex left us with and I think it's a better environment for a QB. I'm not sure Wentz would have the same success if we gave up what the Eagles had to in order to get him. They have a top OL and solid all around weapons and a good defense. I'm also not convinced that Gailey would have gotten the most out of him, I do trust Morton more in that respect. Macc will be graded heavily on this offseason and his ability to get a QB. I'll wait to pass judgement until after next season. 

Where would I have turned for QB? How about make a real effort in the draft in round 1? There were opportunities in each of the last 2 drafts. In 2016 teams with the top 2 positions were trading out of their slots. Year before that Cousins was on the trading block (instead of making a trade we instead took D.Smith, used 2 draft picks on Bryce Petty, and a 3rd pick on Ryan Fitzpatrick). He allegedly showed interest in all 3 seasons and pulled the trigger on them zero times. You can’t look at the failure in the directions he chose and then excuse them with the same fervor deserving of someone who’d actually made the correct decision. Parents make those excuses for their children, not fans excusing a GM.

People who claim they’re grading him heavily this offseason for the QB position are grading on a steep curve, since 2 full offseasons ago fans were (appropriately) claiming he should be graded on his picks of Petty and Hackenberg. Now that those 2 are known enormous failures, they’re undeservedly giving him a 4th NFL season to fill all the holes he’s seen fit to leave unfilled after the prior 3. But hey, we have 2 young safeties and Darron Lee, and we got Mo re-inked at $17m/year.

The “[drafted QB] wouldn’t have had the same success here” is the biggest pussy copout excuse for not taking available franchise QBs in the ever-growing list of horrible excuses.

Our OL? What serious effort has Maccagnan made to bettering the OL for 3 whole years? While the OL keeps getting worse, he’s used our top picks on a 300-lb DE we didn’t need, a mental/shrimpy ILB who can’t cover slow TEs and gets engulfed if engaged by any player on offense, a ****ing safety, another ****ing safety, a top-40 pick WR who can only run go routes and has barely seen the field b/c he’s so fragile, and the great blunder pick of Christian Hackenberg with whom he had an unhealthy infatuation. Also a slow OLB to be a pass rusher, and “BAP” WRs Stewart & Hansen, who can barely get onto the field (for the same HC who had repeatedly put UDFA WRs on the field). There’s your OL-building.

In 3 drafts he’s picked up other teams’ trash for LT and LG (getting unexpectedly lucky on the latter for the first 2 years), re-signed Winters for twice his worth b/c he waited way too late (despite your personal feelings to the contrary), drafted the massively overrated Brandon Shell, and freaking Wesley Johnson.

If you want to cry about our lousy OL then cry about the man who assembled and invested in this lousy OL in favor of subjective best-available-player rankings.

As far as other wepponz, some who love to make excuses for Maccagnan will praise the pickups of Anderson and Kearse up and down, and then in the next breath whine that a QB wouldn’t be good here because we don’t have teh wepponz. Even as a far less talented, choke-prone, injury-prone, old McCown is putting up numbers we’d be gushing over if they came from a young QB. 

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Where would I have turned for QB? How about make a real effort in the draft in round 1? There were opportunities in each of the last 2 drafts. In 2016 teams with the top 2 positions were trading out of their slots. Year before that Cousins was on the trading block (instead of making a trade we instead took D.Smith, used 2 draft picks on Bryce Petty, and a 3rd pick on Ryan Fitzpatrick). He allegedly showed interest in all 3 seasons and pulled the trigger on them zero times. You can’t look at the failure in the direction he chose and then excuse with the same fervor you’d have if he’d actually made the correct decision. Parents make those excuses for their children, not fans excusing a GM.

People who claim they’re grading him heavily this offseason for the QB position are grading on a steep curve, since 2 full offseasons ago fans were (appropriately) claiming he should be graded on his picks of Petty and Hackenberg. Now that those 2 are known enormous failures, you’re giving him a 4th NFL season to fill all the holes he’s seen fit to leave unfilled after the prior 3. But hey, we have 2 young safeties and Darron Lee, and we got Mo re-inked at $17m/year.

The “[drafted QB] wouldn’t have had the same success here” is the biggest pussy copout excuse for not taking available franchise QBs in the ever-growing list of horrible excuses.

Our OL? What serious effort has Maccagnan made to bettering the OL? While the OL keeps getting worse, he’s used our top picks on a 300-lb DE we didn’t need, a mental/shrimpy ILB who can’t cover slow TEs and gets engulfed if engaged by any player on offense, a ****ing safety, another ****ing safety, a top-40 pick WR who can only run go routes and has barely seen the field b/c he’s so fragile, and the great blunder pick of Christian Hackenberg with whom he had an unhealthy infatuation. Also a slow OLB to be a pass rusher, and “BAP” WRs Stewart & Hansen, who can barely get onto the field (for the same HC who had repeatedly put UDFA WRs on the field). 

In 3 drafts he’s picked up other teams’ trash for LT and LG (getting unexpectedly lucky on the latter for the first 2 years), re-signed Winters for twice his worth b/c he waited way too late (despite your personal feelings to the contrary), drafted the massively overrated Brandon Shell, and freaking Wesley Johnson.

If you want to cry about our lousy OL then cry about the man who assembled and invested in this lousy OL in favor of subjective best-available-player rankings.

As far as other wepponz, some who love to make excuses for Maccagnan will praise the pickups of Anderson and Kearse up and down, and then in the next breath whine that a QB wouldn’t be good here because we don’t have teh wepponz. Even as a far less talented, choke-prone, old McCown is putting up numbers we’d be gushing over if they came from a young QB. 

God I love whoever invented "teh weaponz." Greatest JN contribution to mankind.

[bla bla bla]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Where would I have turned for QB? How about make a real effort in the draft in round 1? There were opportunities in each of the last 2 drafts. In 2016 teams with the top 2 positions were trading out of their slots. Year before that Cousins was on the trading block (instead of making a trade we instead took D.Smith, used 2 draft picks on Bryce Petty, and a 3rd pick on Ryan Fitzpatrick). He allegedly showed interest in all 3 seasons and pulled the trigger on them zero times. You can’t look at the failure in the directions he chose and then excuse them with the same fervor deserving of someone who’d actually made the correct decision. Parents make those excuses for their children, not fans excusing a GM.

People who claim they’re grading him heavily this offseason for the QB position are grading on a steep curve, since 2 full offseasons ago fans were (appropriately) claiming he should be graded on his picks of Petty and Hackenberg. Now that those 2 are known enormous failures, they’re undeservedly giving him a 4th NFL season to fill all the holes he’s seen fit to leave unfilled after the prior 3. But hey, we have 2 young safeties and Darron Lee, and we got Mo re-inked at $17m/year.

The “[drafted QB] wouldn’t have had the same success here” is the biggest pussy copout excuse for not taking available franchise QBs in the ever-growing list of horrible excuses.

Our OL? What serious effort has Maccagnan made to bettering the OL for 3 whole years? While the OL keeps getting worse, he’s used our top picks on a 300-lb DE we didn’t need, a mental/shrimpy ILB who can’t cover slow TEs and gets engulfed if engaged by any player on offense, a ****ing safety, another ****ing safety, a top-40 pick WR who can only run go routes and has barely seen the field b/c he’s so fragile, and the great blunder pick of Christian Hackenberg with whom he had an unhealthy infatuation. Also a slow OLB to be a pass rusher, and “BAP” WRs Stewart & Hansen, who can barely get onto the field (for the same HC who had repeatedly put UDFA WRs on the field). There’s your OL-building.

In 3 drafts he’s picked up other teams’ trash for LT and LG (getting unexpectedly lucky on the latter for the first 2 years), re-signed Winters for twice his worth b/c he waited way too late (despite your personal feelings to the contrary), drafted the massively overrated Brandon Shell, and freaking Wesley Johnson.

If you want to cry about our lousy OL then cry about the man who assembled and invested in this lousy OL in favor of subjective best-available-player rankings.

As far as other wepponz, some who love to make excuses for Maccagnan will praise the pickups of Anderson and Kearse up and down, and then in the next breath whine that a QB wouldn’t be good here because we don’t have teh wepponz. Even as a far less talented, choke-prone, injury-prone, old McCown is putting up numbers we’d be gushing over if they came from a young QB. 

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there was little evidence that we had any legit starting weapons until this season. Hindsight drafting will make any GM look foolish. Claiming he needed to make X move without having contemplated the potential repercussions doesn't seem fair but I suppose that's the world we live in. 

I try to judge him based on the available options at the time of decision where as you judge him based on end result. IMO both fair point of views, I just don't believe there were realistic better situations that presented themselves at the time those decisions were made.

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there was little evidence that we had any legit starting weapons until this season. Hindsight drafting will make any GM look foolish. Claiming he needed to make X move without having contemplated the potential repercussions doesn't seem fair but I suppose that's the world we live in. 

I try to judge him based on the available options at the time of decision where as you judge him based on end result. IMO both fair point of views, I just don't believe there were realistic better situations that presented themselves at the time those decisions were made.

He should be judging based on the available options at the time. You are making excuses for his failure to take advantage of options available at the time. 

For example, moving up for a QB in 2016 was not some crazy idea no one else would do. We had far more reason to trade up for Wentz than the Eagles, who had just paid out significant $$$ to two under-30 veterans. Philadelphia also didn't have the trade-up ammunition of Mo Wilkerson (which would have further rescued us from significant reinvestment in an injured player), and at the time they certainly didn't know they'd be able to trade Bradford so soon after that, before he got injured again (let alone for a 1st rounder in the very next draft). Philly made the Wentz pick figuring they were going to have to keep all 3, because they realized how the team's fortune most typically follows the QB's fortune.

In comparison, with only Geno Smith and Bryce Petty on the roster, we showed interest but did nothing (as usual). Some fans applauded as our GM kept the franchise-tagged Mo (who still was without a contract at the time), didn't trade up, and stayed pat to take Darron Lee and Christian Hackenberg, extended Mo and guaranteed him $34m over the next 2 seasons, then re-signed Ryan Fitzpatrick for $12m and wasted the season (plus then another $8m and yet another wasted season on Josh McCown and the long shot of one of his prior 2 draftees not soiling themselves all summer long).

Every move and non-move has its potential upside and downside. Sure, there's downside of taking a QB in round 1 in that he may not work out; the downside of not taking a shot on a top prospect is you waste season after season while touting moral victories like, "Hey that Darron Lee is definitely better than last year" on our way to yet another top 10 pick (or >1 top 10 pick) anyway.

[bla bla bla]

15 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He should be judging based on the available options at the time. You are making excuses for his failure to take advantage of options available at the time. 

And you are using hindsight to take advantage of options available at the time. Seems pretty similar to me.

19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

For example, moving up for a QB in 2016 was not some crazy idea no one else would do. We had far more reason to trade up for Wentz than the Eagles, who had just paid out significant $$$ to two under-30 veterans. Philadelphia also didn't have the trade-up ammunition of Mo Wilkerson (which would have further rescued us from significant reinvestment in an injured player), and at the time they certainly didn't know they'd be able to trade Bradford so soon after that, before he got injured again (let alone for a 1st rounder in the very next draft). Philly made the Wentz pick figuring they were going to have to keep all 3, because they realized how the team's fortune most typically follows the QB's fortune.

They signed Bradford for $22M in FA because they didn't have a QB outside of him, there is a reason that deal was heavily frontloaded (similar to the Glennon deal IMO) which also made him really easy to trade in the event they get a QB. That was a great gamble on the Eagles part. I thought Daniels sign for $7M but I could wrong on that, either way I would think it makes sense to sign a good back up given how injury prone Bradford is. IMO the Eagles were in an optimal spot to move up for a QB given the potential they had to trade their QBs on the roster.

41 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

In comparison, with only Geno Smith and Bryce Petty on the roster, we showed interest but did nothing (as usual). Some fans applauded as our GM kept the franchise-tagged Mo (who still was without a contract at the time), didn't trade up, and stayed pat to take Darron Lee and Christian Hackenberg, extended Mo and guaranteed him $34m over the next 2 seasons, then re-signed Ryan Fitzpatrick for $12m and wasted the season (plus then another $8m and yet another wasted season on Josh McCown and the long shot of one of his prior 2 draftees not soiling themselves all summer long).

We didn't have the ammo that the Eagles had to get up to number 2. The gamble of jumping up that high with no talent on the team was a far greater risk for us than it was for the Eagles. I won't defend the Hack selection other than they thought he could develop like you said and become a valuable trade chip or potential franchise QB. Bad selection. McCown is only being paid for the games he starts, that's a pretty good contract for a team that wants to give their young QBs an opportunity to start, unfortunately neither could play well enough to justify making a change.

 

53 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Every move and non-move has its potential upside and downside. Sure, there's downside of taking a QB in round 1 in that he may not work out; the downside of not taking a shot on a top prospect is you waste season after season while touting moral victories like, "Hey that Darron Lee is definitely better than last year" on our way to yet another top 10 pick (or >1 top 10 pick) anyway.

We absolutely wasted the 2016 season but I'm not sure anyone thought all the vets would play so poorly across the board. I do think we are in a position to move up/sign/stay pat for a QB this year which is why I am willing to wait. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

And you are using hindsight to take advantage of options available at the time. Seems pretty similar to me.

They signed Bradford for $22M in FA because they didn't have a QB outside of him, there is a reason that deal was heavily frontloaded (similar to the Glennon deal IMO) which also made him really easy to trade in the event they get a QB. That was a great gamble on the Eagles part. I thought Daniels sign for $7M but I could wrong on that, either way I would think it makes sense to sign a good back up given how injury prone Bradford is. IMO the Eagles were in an optimal spot to move up for a QB given the potential they had to trade their QBs on the roster.

We didn't have the ammo that the Eagles had to get up to number 2. The gamble of jumping up that high with no talent on the team was a far greater risk for us than it was for the Eagles. I won't defend the Hack selection other than they thought he could develop like you said and become a valuable trade chip or potential franchise QB. Bad selection. McCown is only being paid for the games he starts, that's a pretty good contract for a team that wants to give their young QBs an opportunity to start, unfortunately neither could play well enough to justify making a change.

 

We absolutely wasted the 2016 season but I'm not sure anyone thought all the vets would play so poorly across the board. I do think we are in a position to move up/sign/stay pat for a QB this year which is why I am willing to wait. 

Nonsense. I and others said at the time they should have gone for the gold if they're looking to a QB and have the ammunition. This was a player Maccagnan wanted (though that hardly distinguishes him; the guy went #2 and could have easily gone #1). 

The Eagles were set for at least the 2016 season (and perhaps beyond that). We had Geno Smith and Bryce Petty and were in a stalemate with Ryan Fitzpatrick who turned down a guaranteed $15m.

Frontloaded or backloaded makes no difference on overall. I don't know why people still think otherwise. The spending window is 4 years, not 1 or 2.

We absolutely had the ammo to move up to #1 and it nearly happened. The point of contention was the 2nd round pick he ultimately used on Hackenberg. 

[bla bla bla]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nonsense. I and others said at the time they should have gone for the gold if they're looking to a QB and have the ammunition. This was a player Maccagnan wanted (though that hardly distinguishes him; the guy went #2 and could have easily gone #1). 

The Eagles were set for at least the 2016 season (and perhaps beyond that). We had Geno Smith and Bryce Petty and were in a stalemate with Ryan Fitzpatrick who turned down a guaranteed $15m.

Frontloaded or backloaded makes no difference on overall. I don't know why people still think otherwise. The spending window is 4 years, not 1 or 2.

We absolutely had the ammo to move up to #1 and it nearly happened. The point of contention was the 2nd round pick he ultimately used on Hackenberg. 

Having the ammo with a good team and trade chips > having the ammo with the cupboard already bare

You are making my point, we had no one at QB to use to recoup picks like the Eagles had. If we make that kind of trade we'd again be taking a young QB and leaving him with nothing to work with. We may have had the means to get up to number 2 but that doesn't change the fact that he was an unknown D2 QB at the time the decision was made. Unlike 2016 we have the money, we have a load of players on cheap deals, we have the draft picks, there is a plethora of QBs available; now makes sense for us to go out and get whoever our guy is.

[#27TheDominator]

10 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Having the ammo with a good team and trade chips > having the ammo with the cupboard already bare

You are making my point, we had no one at QB to use to recoup picks like the Eagles had. If we make that kind of trade we'd again be taking a young QB and leaving him with nothing to work with. We may have had the means to get up to number 2 but that doesn't change the fact that he was an unknown D2 QB at the time the decision was made. Unlike 2016 we have the money, we have a load of players on cheap deals, we have the draft picks, there is a plethora of QBs available; now makes sense for us to go out and get whoever our guy is.

Honest question:  Who are these loads of players on cheap deals?  

FWIW, NDSU is an FCS school, but it is still D1.  Basically it is the old 1AA. You won't hear of many guys in the league from D2 schools and you probably can't name many.

[bla bla bla]

30 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Honest question:  Who are these loads of players on cheap deals?  

FWIW, NDSU is an FCS school, but it is still D1.  Basically it is the old 1AA. You won't hear of many guys in the league from D2 schools and you probably can't name many.

Ah ok I stand corrected, should have said played inferior competition. We have $70-90M in cap space next year with no significant players up for pay days. Is there someone on our roster who is in need of a major pay day in the next 2 seasons? 

Maybe Leonard Williams if we want to extend him a year early?

[#27TheDominator]

19 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Ah ok I stand corrected, should have said played inferior competition. We have $70-90M in cap space next year with no significant players up for pay days. Is there someone on our roster who is in need of a major pay day in the next 2 seasons? 

Maybe Leonard Williams if we want to extend him a year early?

We have no "significant" players up for pay days because we have no significant players.  What players on the Jets would be up for a pay day anywhere?  Williams, Robby Anderson, and Jenkins are probably the only non-rookies that people think aren't JAGs.  Beyond them, almost everyone people think are of value probably will be a free agent.  Maybe Kearse and Powell? 

Didn't mean to make a big deal about the D2 thing.  Thing is, one of Maccagnan's good decisions last year was supposedly that he wanted to move up for Wentz, not Goff and didn't want Lynch.  That is seen as less important now that Goff looks solid.  People were looking at that like it showed an eye for talent.

[bla bla bla]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

We have no "significant" players up for pay days because we have no significant players.  What players on the Jets would be up for a pay day anywhere?  Williams, Robby Anderson, and Jenkins are probably the only non-rookies that people think aren't JAGs.  Beyond them, almost everyone people think are of value probably will be a free agent.  Maybe Kearse and Powell? 

I didn't claim we had significant players; I said we had "loads of players on cheap deals" which is still correct. Williams, Anderson, & Jenkins are players we could look to lock up a year early but all are under contract until 2020.

I like Kearse and Powell for next season but I think the hope would be that Enunwa/Stewart/Hansen could step in for Kearse and I'd like to believe we'd sign a young RB in the next 2 offseasons to replace Powell. He'll be 30 during next season so even though he should have more tread than the average back I don't think he'd command a big deal.

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Didn't mean to make a big deal about the D2 thing.  Thing is, one of Maccagnan's good decisions last year was supposedly that he wanted to move up for Wentz, not Goff and didn't want Lynch.  That is seen as less important now that Goff looks solid.  People were looking at that like it showed an eye for talent.

I don't think I'd use attempting to move up as a positive, more of a lateral move IMO. I am glad he didn't like Lynch, still concerned about the Hack selection though. Overall I do like his eye for picking FAs from the 2nd tier pile, working the waiver wire, and picking up UDFAs. So I think he does have an eye for talent, we just need that eye to be able to spot a franchise QB this offseason. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Having the ammo with a good team and trade chips > having the ammo with the cupboard already bare

You are making my point, we had no one at QB to use to recoup picks like the Eagles had. If we make that kind of trade we'd again be taking a young QB and leaving him with nothing to work with. We may have had the means to get up to number 2 but that doesn't change the fact that he was an unknown D2 QB at the time the decision was made. Unlike 2016 we have the money, we have a load of players on cheap deals, we have the draft picks, there is a plethora of QBs available; now makes sense for us to go out and get whoever our guy is.

The Eagles weren't thinking recoup picks when they drafted Wentz, other than a hope that someone else wanted Bradford with all that potential guaranteed money (given his injury history that'd kick in the full amount of the 2017 salary), let alone Daniels at $15m. They weren't able to unload Bradford until September - and even that was dumb luck because Bridgewater (a QB on a team that considered themselves contenders) went down last minute. Otherwise they were eating that contract and the $4m guaranteed the next season, and they knew it.

They were mocked for the Bradford contract, not applauded. They're fully aware how lucky they got due to Minnesota's misfortune, not just that Bridgewater got injured but the seriousness of that injury.

Unknown D2 QB, lol. So Hackenberg was a known failure of a D1 QB and Fitz was a known journeyman garbage heap that wanted 3x his worth. You take him, and if he flops that badly then 2 years later you take another. Don't talk to me of hindsight; the guy went 2nd in the country - which is lower than he'd have gone if we'd pulled the trigger to #1 - and he wasn't some Hackenberg-like longshot. 

The Eagles gave up plenty. Never mind what the Rams gave up to get to #1. We'd have had to give up less to get to #1 because there was interest in Mo, and then Philadelphia wouldn't have even been in the mix for him at #2.

[bla bla bla]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The Eagles weren't thinking recoup picks when they drafted Wentz, other than a hope that someone else wanted Bradford with all that potential guaranteed money (given his injury history that'd kick in the full amount of the 2017 salary), let alone Daniels at $15m. They weren't able to unload Bradford until September - and even that was dumb luck because Bridgewater (a QB on a team that considered themselves contenders) went down last minute. Otherwise they were eating that contract and the $4m guaranteed the next season, and they knew it.

They were mocked for the Bradford contract, not applauded. They're fully aware how lucky they got due to Minnesota's misfortune, not just that Bridgewater got injured but the seriousness of that injury.

Yes they were extremely lucky a contending Vikings team needed a QB in a pinch but I'd be shocked if they didn't think that they could trade either Bradford or Daniels once they made the decision to move up to get Wentz. My point is we would have given up the farm and had nothing but a QB and players that were on a sharp decline. They had QBs that they knew they'd be able to get something for (the 1st rounder was the lucky part). 

 

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Unknown D2 QB, lol. So Hackenberg was a known failure of a D1 QB and Fitz was a known journeyman garbage heap that wanted 3x his worth. You take him, and if he flops that badly then 2 years later you take another. Don't talk to me of hindsight; the guy went 2nd in the country - which is lower than he'd have gone if we'd pulled the trigger to #1 - and he wasn't some Hackenberg-like longshot. 

Unknown as in would he translate to the NFL not an unknown player. Trading up that far with a team that was completely baren of talent is a risk Macc likely would not have been able to recover from, I don't think they'd give him another chance to trade up 2 years down the line. Taking Hack in the 2nd was a gamble, a bad pick, but ultimately only cost 1 selection while adding young players to the roster.

I didn't realize we were looking to move up to number 1 I was under the impression it was the Browns at #2 who we had trade talks with but I never heard what the compensation was for it. All I heard was we needed to kick in an additional 3rd on top of whatever that trade was. Didn't the Philly trade happen prior to the Rams selecting Goff? I thought they didn't know who they were getting when they made the deal to get up to 2. 

My only argument is that our roster is in a better place this season to add a QB than before the 2016 draft.