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So when do Bowles & Macagnan get fired?


Philc1

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8 hours ago, gEYno said:

If it seems true to you, maybe you're struggling to understand space-time?  I don't know.

Because, today isn't day 1.  Today is well past the halfway point of year 3.  No one was calling for him to be fired day 1, and no one was calling for him to be fired after year 1, even if some felt that the moves he made were not in the best interest of the long term future of the team, which, most people defending him now actually agree with.  They just blame it on Woody, despite not actually having any evidence to do so.

No one is blaming it all on the QB situation either.  The issue is that there's also no pass-rusher, there's no elite playmakers, the offensive line is 2nd worst in the league by a lot of metrics, and the defense, which is where all the investment has gone, is not very good either.  The hopes of this team is that two, thus far, average safeties turn out to be elite, and that a one route WR turns into Antonio Brown.

As for him not being as bad as people are making him out to be.  People critical of him say that he hasn't brought in a viable option at QB, no passrusher, no offensive line, no offensive playmaker, and overall the team is bad right now.  Which of these points do you contest?  Or, do you just think that after 3 years, it's okay to have this many holes, with this little promising young talent, and to have close to the same bad record you had 3 years ago?

I wanted him fired when he drafted Lee then Hackenberg.  It reminded me of when we drafted Gholston then later on Ainge.   It is sad when a fan knows more than a paid GM.

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5 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

 the problem is Woody sticking his nose in all along.  A first-time GM might not care, or is willing to put up with a meddling owner.

There is a reason we have had 6 consecutive first-time HCs (all after Woody bought the team) and I think you've nailed it. Guys looking for their shot figure "ok it's the Jets and their silver-spoon meddling owner, but real teams require HC experience to become HC so I will bite the bullet for 2-3 years." 

Is is it too much to ask to hire a guy who doesn't require on-the-job training?? Heck I will even take a chance on a guy with experience as HC in a big college program despite the extremely mixed results of going that route.

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17 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The difference is that Jerry Reese has been there a long time, since the end of 2007. So there was stability. 

ANy other franchise? Would that include the Bengals who have had MArvin Lewis there forever?

Marvin Lewis is not the best example, though generally i agree with you. The Bengals were a laughing stock in the league before Lewis became the coach. For what it's worth the Bengals have had their best run with Lewis as coach. Given how bad they were Lewis is probably considered one of their best all-time coaches.

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9 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Again though, who will come here?  Lets say for sh*ts and giggles, John Schneider's contract was up with Seattle.  Would he REALLY want to come here, no matter the money thrown at him? Sure, lots of cap space, but what if the problem is Woody sticking his nose in all along.  A first-time GM might not care, or is willing to put up with a meddling owner.  I can't see guys like Schneider, Thompson, Bellichick, any of them wanting to run a franchise like this if Woody is in fact causing some of the issues.

The key to any of this is IF Mac goes next year (which I don't think he will), is Woody or Chris or whichever Johnson is guiding the ship, will they let the GM hire HIS guy to coach the team and get the players they want?  I would have no problem NOT taking a QB next year if a) They drafted/signed players to build a top-notch O-line first b.  Went out and found a bona-fide #1 receiver, and then went out and found a bona-fide pass-rusher. 

I like some of the players Mac has drafted.  I just don't like the way it has been done.  Maybe I am too old school.  Build trenches, get a guy to get sacks, get a guy who can catch, get a guy who can throw the ball.  After that, you start filling in the pieces.  Without all that, great RB's and TE's and Safeties will be wasted, because you can't win without a QB, people to keep said QB upright, and a guy who hunts QB's for a living.

Continuing failure will not solve a problem; it will continue failure (but will mask it behind overpriced FAs who won’t be worth their pricetag, and who’ll soon be seen as pickups we’d like to undo). You may personally like some of his players - hell, so do I just by the law of averages alone - but they aren’t the championship-building, difference-making players who move the needle nearly enough; our crappy record is a testament to that. And picking up 2 players/year is too slow of a pace to fill out a 22-starter roster since few play at a starter-worthy level for that long (let alone under 4-year rookie contracts).

You want to build the trenches, get a guy to get sacks, get a guy who can throw the ball... well what the hell has he been doing on these fronts for the first 3 seasons? You aren’t “too old school” in believing a team needs these things first and foremost. Everyone knows a team needs these things, and while they can have success without one of them, no team succeeds in the absence of all of them. The path to a Super Bowl isn’t paved with a safety-sized hybrid ILB-OLB with poor coverage skills, or safeties, or hoarding more DT-sized DEs than the team needs. 

For example, over 3 years here’s the Maccagnan idea of the OL trench-building that you (and most people) value so much:

  • He started out just fine with Carpenter, even if he merely ended up with him after not ante’ing up for the one he wanted. Also he was far better than anyone expected, including Maccagnan, or he’d have been the top choice at that money. But even that wisdom lasted a mere 2 years, and already expired 2 months ago. Now he looks like a guy to trade away if he ever actually drafts a guard himself.
  • At LT he held onto an overpriced, steeply-declining Ferguson; then pulled an ultimatum on him in April after picking up nobody to replace him, after which he traded for the game’s most injury-prone veteran LT...who was playing banged up almost immediately and went on IR by mid season; after that he picks up Beachum whose main attribute is that he isn’t Ben Ijalana — whom he also just extended for 2 years at another $5.5m per. Beachum’s going nowhere next year, as half his salary is guaranteed.
  • At the other guard spot, we all saw Brian Winters show much improvement over his earlier play, after Colon went down early 2015. He wanted to upgrade from him further, and there were leaks he wanted to go after Osemele (who got a stupid-sized contract from Oakland). But before that, he had a real opportunity to extend Winters for far less (and by now he’d further be finishing up the guaranteed portion of that extension); instead he waited another year for him to earn his UFA status, and after painting himself into this corner, had to preemptively outbid the rest of the league so now we’ll still be in the guaranteed portion of his contract in 2018 at some $8m. As in, we’re not touching the RG position with more than a longshot, mid-late draft pick.
  • At center...yeah, do I need to even say it? Put all the eggs into Wesley Johnson. Draft nobody, sign nobody. Everything on a player under a RFA tag; if he’d even worked out, we’d then be in a bidding war with the rest of the league; if he didn’t work out, the middle of the OL has a weakness with no solution or contingency plan. Just brilliant.
  • Then the crown jewel of our future OL of Brandon Shell, who overall is still a below-average RT as his 2nd season is winding down. But at least we brought in competition so he wouldn’t be handed the job. I mean, he did take a solid month to beat out Brent Qvale.

I stopped here at this point...in the interest of brevity, lol.

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43 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

Most gm's get to hire two head coaches before they're canned.

Imo, Mac should be allowed to hire 1.

If he doesn't, this will be two gm's in a row that were fired by the Jets without being allowed to make their own hire.

What Coach is coming to play for a guy who can’t bring in above average talent at premium positions and who is almost immediately on the hot seat come 2018 with another failed season? Throw them both out and do this thing right from the start. 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

Most gm's get to hire two head coaches before they're canned.

Imo, Mac should be allowed to hire 1.

If he doesn't, this will be two gm's in a row that were fired by the Jets without being allowed to make their own hire.

Does it not occur to you that the types of GMs who would take such a job are not the types of GMs we need or have had? That we’ve merely hired the types of GMs that would take a job in such a scenario, because nobody else is otherwise offering them GM jobs?

He shouldn’t be allowed to hire a HC because he has not come close to earning a 3-year extension based on the players he’s brought in. What fictional “hand picked” HC of his do you imagine would have taken us to a superbowl with the rosters he’s supplied for 3 years? Do you even know that Maccagnan wouldn’t have selected Bowles himself? He agreed to the Jets GM job under that circumstance, so surely he didn’t think it was so tragic an idea. 

He’s a career scout that has whiffed on most of the player personnel he’s brought in (his only supposed area of expertise). What then qualifies him to choose coaches as well? The answer, of course, is that he isn’t qualified to do so.

But let’s believe that every win under Bowles would have happened with an alternate hire by the HC-whisperer, and start tacking on additional wins from there. #totalreality

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The problem from the get go is that I don't believe Macc hast had the proper people in the organization to bounce ideas and advise from. That's telling on one person and that's Woody at the time. The proper structure for this organization would be to hire a PRESIDENT of Football, like Tom C in Jacks... A football guy for his entire life. Until that is done we can whine and cry forever because there will be no one overseeing the operation. I get both side of the argument for Macc, and I am trending on the keep side for now. That all changes next year if he doesn't fix the QB, OL, and the OLB positions. I can't see keeping DumbA$$... though as he has got to go. 

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51 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Continuing failure will not solve a problem; it will continue failure (but will mask it behind overpriced FAs who won’t be worth their pricetag, and who’ll soon be seen as pickups we’d like to undo). You may personally like some of his players - hell, so do I just by the law of averages alone - but they aren’t the championship-building, difference-making players who move the needle nearly enough; our crappy record is a testament to that. And picking up 2 players/year is too slow of a pace to fill out a 22-starter roster since few play at a starter-worthy level for that long (let alone under 4-year rookie contracts).

You want to build the trenches, get a guy to get sacks, get a guy who can throw the ball... well what the hell has he been doing on these fronts for the first 3 seasons? You aren’t “too old school” in believing a team needs these things first and foremost. Everyone knows a team needs these things, and while they can have success without one of them, no team succeeds in the absence of all of them. The path to a Super Bowl isn’t paved with a safety-sized hybrid ILB-OLB with poor coverage skills, or safeties, or hoarding more DT-sized DEs than the team needs. 

For example, over 3 years here’s the Maccagnan idea of the OL trench-building that you (and most people) value so much:

  • He started out just fine with Carpenter, even if he merely ended up with him after not ante’ing up for the one he wanted. Also he was far better than anyone expected, including Maccagnan, or he’d have been the top choice at that money. But even that wisdom lasted a mere 2 years, and already expired 2 months ago. Now he looks like a guy to trade away if he ever actually drafts a guard himself.
  • At LT he held onto an overpriced, steeply-declining Ferguson; then pulled an ultimatum on him in April after picking up nobody to replace him, after which he traded for the game’s most injury-prone veteran LT...who was playing banged up almost immediately and went on IR by mid season; after that he picks up Beachum whose main attribute is that he isn’t Ben Ijalana — whom he also just extended for 2 years at another $5.5m per. Beachum’s going nowhere next year, as half his salary is guaranteed.
  • At the other guard spot, we all saw Brian Winters show much improvement over his earlier play, after Colon went down early 2015. He wanted to upgrade from him further, and there were leaks he wanted to go after Osemele (who got a stupid-sized contract from Oakland). But before that, he had a real opportunity to extend Winters for far less (and by now he’d further be finishing up the guaranteed portion of that extension); instead he waited another year for him to earn his UFA status, and after painting himself into this corner, had to preemptively outbid the rest of the league so now we’ll still be in the guaranteed portion of his contract in 2018 at some $8m. As in, we’re not touching the RG position with more than a longshot, mid-late draft pick.
  • At center...yeah, do I need to even say it? Put all the eggs into Wesley Johnson. Draft nobody, sign nobody. Everything on a player under a RFA tag; if he’d even worked out, we’d then be in a bidding war with the rest of the league; if he didn’t work out, the middle of the OL has a weakness with no solution or contingency plan. Just brilliant.
  • Then the crown jewel of our future OL of Brandon Shell, who overall is still a below-average RT as his 2nd season is winding down. But at least we brought in competition so he wouldn’t be handed the job. I mean, he did take a solid month to beat out Brent Qvale.

I stopped here at this point...in the interest of brevity, lol.

Just asking for your gut here, as I feel you are hedging:

-Give MACC one more year

-Or extend him multiple years

I know this may be somewhat an unfair question at this point in time, and you may want to see more evidence.

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This notion that Mac is making decisions like taking 2 safeties with the top two pics, without either full support, or even direction from Bowles is absolutely preposterous in every way.

Every major personnel decision he has made has been made with Bowles. I know some ardent Idzik supporters want to live in a  world where Mac is making all these decisions in a vacuum, and Bowles is just cooking with the groceries Mac brings to the house, are out of their minds.

And then the best part is, "you have no proof that Bowles is involved in personnel decisions". Holy Hell. Its like ignoring the smoking gun at the crime scene and saying, you have no proof the murder pulled the trigger.

The shame of it is the Jets have been bad for so long, that Jets fans have turned more towards their own agendas to feel good about themselves with regard to the Jets than what is actually going on.

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5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Just asking for your gut here, as I feel you are hedging:

-Give MACC one more year

-Or extend him multiple years

I know this may be somewhat an unfair question at this point in time, and you may want to see more evidence.

Then keep Bowles as well. Firing Bowles (but keeping Maccagnan) effectively gives him a 3 year extension starting in 2018.

I think they both should go, before Macc inks another quarter billion dollars in contracts we’d like to take back, and picks his next “QB” for the Jets.

Basically, now is when the job is more attractive; not after he uses those resources and locks us into more players we don’t want or don’t need.

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21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Then keep Bowles as well. Firing Bowles (but keeping Maccagnan) effectively gives him a 3 year extension starting in 2018.

I think they both should go, before Macc inks another quarter billion dollars in contracts we’d like to take back, and picks his next “QB” for the Jets.

Basically, now is when the job is more attractive; not after he uses those resources and locks us into more players we don’t want or don’t need.

It was meant to be a joke. I think you have articulated your stance.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Then keep Bowles as well. Firing Bowles (but keeping Maccagnan) effectively gives him a 3 year extension starting in 2018.

I think they both should go, before Macc inks another quarter billion dollars in contracts we’d like to take back, and picks his next “QB” for the Jets.

Basically, now is when the job is more attractive; not after he uses those resources and locks us into more players we don’t want or don’t need.

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7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Continuing failure will not solve a problem; it will continue failure (but will mask it behind overpriced FAs who won’t be worth their pricetag, and who’ll soon be seen as pickups we’d like to undo). You may personally like some of his players - hell, so do I just by the law of averages alone - but they aren’t the championship-building, difference-making players who move the needle nearly enough; our crappy record is a testament to that. And picking up 2 players/year is too slow of a pace to fill out a 22-starter roster since few play at a starter-worthy level for that long (let alone under 4-year rookie contracts).

You want to build the trenches, get a guy to get sacks, get a guy who can throw the ball... well what the hell has he been doing on these fronts for the first 3 seasons? You aren’t “too old school” in believing a team needs these things first and foremost. Everyone knows a team needs these things, and while they can have success without one of them, no team succeeds in the absence of all of them. The path to a Super Bowl isn’t paved with a safety-sized hybrid ILB-OLB with poor coverage skills, or safeties, or hoarding more DT-sized DEs than the team needs. 

For example, over 3 years here’s the Maccagnan idea of the OL trench-building that you (and most people) value so much:

  • He started out just fine with Carpenter, even if he merely ended up with him after not ante’ing up for the one he wanted. Also he was far better than anyone expected, including Maccagnan, or he’d have been the top choice at that money. But even that wisdom lasted a mere 2 years, and already expired 2 months ago. Now he looks like a guy to trade away if he ever actually drafts a guard himself.
  • At LT he held onto an overpriced, steeply-declining Ferguson; then pulled an ultimatum on him in April after picking up nobody to replace him, after which he traded for the game’s most injury-prone veteran LT...who was playing banged up almost immediately and went on IR by mid season; after that he picks up Beachum whose main attribute is that he isn’t Ben Ijalana — whom he also just extended for 2 years at another $5.5m per. Beachum’s going nowhere next year, as half his salary is guaranteed.
  • At the other guard spot, we all saw Brian Winters show much improvement over his earlier play, after Colon went down early 2015. He wanted to upgrade from him further, and there were leaks he wanted to go after Osemele (who got a stupid-sized contract from Oakland). But before that, he had a real opportunity to extend Winters for far less (and by now he’d further be finishing up the guaranteed portion of that extension); instead he waited another year for him to earn his UFA status, and after painting himself into this corner, had to preemptively outbid the rest of the league so now we’ll still be in the guaranteed portion of his contract in 2018 at some $8m. As in, we’re not touching the RG position with more than a longshot, mid-late draft pick.
  • At center...yeah, do I need to even say it? Put all the eggs into Wesley Johnson. Draft nobody, sign nobody. Everything on a player under a RFA tag; if he’d even worked out, we’d then be in a bidding war with the rest of the league; if he didn’t work out, the middle of the OL has a weakness with no solution or contingency plan. Just brilliant.
  • Then the crown jewel of our future OL of Brandon Shell, who overall is still a below-average RT as his 2nd season is winding down. But at least we brought in competition so he wouldn’t be handed the job. I mean, he did take a solid month to beat out Brent Qvale.

I stopped here at this point...in the interest of brevity, lol.

I emphasis again: would there be a good GM candidate WITH experience that would come here, or are we going to have our 5th 1st-time GM who basically does what Woody wants him to do? 

Honest question: This seems to be a trend.  Since Woody bought the team, every GM has been a first-timer.  Do you think that Woody has had a HUGE hand in some of the player=personnel decisions.  And if he does, how much blame should be going Woody's way if he is constantly interfering to the teams detriment?

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5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I emphasis again: would there be a good GM candidate WITH experience that would come here, or are we going to have our 5th 1st-time GM who basically does what Woody wants him to do? 

Honest question: This seems to be a trend.  Since Woody bought the team, every GM has been a first-timer.  Do you think that Woody has had a HUGE hand in some of the player=personnel decisions.  And if he does, how much blame should be going Woody's way if he is constantly interfering to the teams detriment?

No, the things that get leaked and from other things I've heard, Woody does not play much of any hand in the player-personnel decisions (let alone a HUGE hand). He is not constantly interfering, there have been no rumors he's interfering (never mind constantly interfering) and the GMs all say he let them do their own things.

It's a fan rumor. I get it, since it's pretty hard to find a Woody Johnson fan, but there's no actual basis to the belief beyond the desire to find a common boogeyman. 

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Most gm's get to hire two head coaches before they're canned.
Imo, Mac should be allowed to hire 1.
If he doesn't, this will be two gm's in a row that were fired by the Jets without being allowed to make their own hire.

He needs to prove himself aswell before he is allowed to dictate another mans fate. He has picks (Hackenburg) that he needs to atone for aswell. I could see if we was talking about a proven GM. But last I checked these two were both one timers. I honestly don’t think either or should determine their fate until they prove themselves worthy of such decisions.


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Does it not occur to you that the types of GMs who would take such a job are not the types of GMs we need or have had? That we’ve merely hired the types of GMs that would take a job in such a scenario, because nobody else is otherwise offering them GM jobs?
He shouldn’t be allowed to hire a HC because he has not come close to earning a 3-year extension based on the players he’s brought in. What fictional “hand picked” HC of his do you imagine would have taken us to a superbowl with the rosters he’s supplied for 3 years? Do you even know that Maccagnan wouldn’t have selected Bowles himself? He agreed to the Jets GM job under that circumstance, so surely he didn’t think it was so tragic an idea. 
He’s a career scout that has whiffed on most of the player personnel he’s brought in (his only supposed area of expertise). What then qualifies him to choose coaches as well? The answer, of course, is that he isn’t qualified to do so.
But let’s believe that every win under Bowles would have happened with an alternate hire by the HC-whisperer, and start tacking on additional wins from there. #totalreality

I absolutely agree with this!!


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Soon I hope after reading crap like this. 

Todd Bowles' voice didn't waver. He remained as statuesque during his Wednesday press conference as any other in his two-plus years as the Jets coach.

He didn't care what the team crosstown did to its two-time Super Bowl winning quarterback. It didn't matter his squad too could benefit from seeing its younger signal callers play.

The Jets have their starter, Bowles said. And he hasn't considered changing who that is. 

"No thought to it," he said. "Josh (McCown) is my starting quarterback."  

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39 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Soon I hope after reading crap like this. 

Todd Bowles' voice didn't waver. He remained as statuesque during his Wednesday press conference as any other in his two-plus years as the Jets coach.

He didn't care what the team crosstown did to its two-time Super Bowl winning quarterback. It didn't matter his squad too could benefit from seeing its younger signal callers play.

The Jets have their starter, Bowles said. And he hasn't considered changing who that is. 

"No thought to it," he said. "Josh (McCown) is my starting quarterback."  

Bowles is doing his job.  This is a Johnson problem.  They are so "smart" they are testing him to see how many games he wins.  They have got the wrong game.

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7 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

I emphasis again: would there be a good GM candidate WITH experience that would come here, or are we going to have our 5th 1st-time GM who basically does what Woody wants him to do? 

Honest question: This seems to be a trend.  Since Woody bought the team, every GM has been a first-timer.  Do you think that Woody has had a HUGE hand in some of the player=personnel decisions.  And if he does, how much blame should be going Woody's way if he is constantly interfering to the teams detriment?

John Dorsey the former Chiefs GM

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5 hours ago, UnTypicalJET said:


He needs to prove himself aswell before he is allowed to dictate another mans fate. He has picks (Hackenburg) that he needs to atone for aswell. I could see if we was talking about a proven GM. But last I checked these two were both one timers. I honestly don’t think either or should determine their fate until they prove themselves worthy of such decisions.


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Macc will hire Bill O’Brien after the Texans fire him

 

 

Book

 

 

It

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2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

John Dorsey the former Chiefs GM

The thing is, I don't think Dorsey would come here without HUGE money, and that does not seem like something Woody wants to do: Spend real money on an experienced GM.  Every one of his GM's have been first timers.  Maybe sooner or later he will hit the jackpot, but....

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2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Even pompous Mangini I would prefer as GM over this current crap fest 

Mangini and trader Mike did well together.  That one damn #6 pick did him in.

D'Brick and Mangold, Kellen Clemens (I still think he could have been serviceable for our team), Eric Smith, Brad Smith, Leon Washington, Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Dustin Keller, Dwight Lowery.  Some great players and some great role players.  Didn't miss on many picks, although the 2008 draft was a little weaker.  Marcus Henry has played well for the Alouettes though!

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6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Mangini and trader Mike did well together.  That one damn #6 pick did him in.

D'Brick and Mangold, Kellen Clemens (I still think he could have been serviceable for our team), Eric Smith, Brad Smith, Leon Washington, Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Dustin Keller, Dwight Lowery.  Some great players and some great role players.  Didn't miss on many picks, although the 2008 draft was a little weaker.  Marcus Henry has played well for the Alouettes though!

I am not a Mangini guy but absolutely I would take him as GM over Mac just let someone else be the head coach

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6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

The thing is, I don't think Dorsey would come here without HUGE money, and that does not seem like something Woody wants to do: Spend real money on an experienced GM.  Every one of his GM's have been first timers.  Maybe sooner or later he will hit the jackpot, but....

Who is Dorsey?  You act like he’s Jon Gruden we don’t need to spend huge money to get him

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