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Why are Darnold & Rosen givens?

Jetster

By Jetster
in NY Jets Forum

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peebag

peebag

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Posted
2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

So why are draft people saying he can be drafted 1st or 2nd round and they weren't projecting Hackenberg at all?

I know you believe all draft people are fools, but what is fooling them?

Both have standard physical measurements that the pros look for in qbs.

Hackenberg was a horrible reach in the 2nd round, must knowledgeable pundits here and on other sites knew that.

Allen hasn't looked as bad as Hack did college, but like flies to honey they like the measurements.

 

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Paradis

Paradis

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2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

OT, People compare Josh Allen to Hackenberg based on type which is valid.

The big difference I see is that many people had HAckenberg not being drafted at all while Josh Allen has been slated to go 1st or 2nd round.

SO what is the difference between them?

Not a lot. Allen's measurables are better so i guess there's that. 

Had Hackenberg not had that first season with Obrien, (and played on a smaller program) you'd probably get similar narratives, as lots of the hype around Allen are based on what he could look like. But Hack played on the big stage and got worse, so he was torpedoed by everyone not named the jets. Be the same story for Allen if roles were reversed. 

Allen's rise to hero status happened over the summer while playing zero football. Wasn't like he was a secret last year. 

 

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Warfish

Warfish

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24 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

No one will ever convince me that drafting the top one or two players at a position isn't more valuable than drafting the 4th or 5th best players at a position. 

I'll do you one further.  In many cases it's not who you draft, it's how you develop them, support them, and what talent you put around them.

I.e. there are "busts" who could have been Franchise QB's in better circumstances, and there are Franchise QB's who would have been busts if you put them on the Jets.

A number of folks here would say that about Geno.  They might even be right.  

I said way back when, and say to this day, that Patrick Ramsey was a guy who coulda shoulda, but the Skins ruined him.

You put an Eli Manning on the Browns or Jets......yeah, bust.

So sure, it;s the guy you pick, but as much it's the organization you surround him with too.

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Jetster

Jetster

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26 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

No one will ever convince me that drafting the top one or two players at a position isn't more valuable than drafting the 4th or 5th best players at a position. 

Yea...guys like Milliner...he was ranked way up there baby.

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Jetster

Jetster

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'll do you one further.  In many cases it's not who you draft, it's how you develop them, support them, and what talent you put around them.

I.e. there are "busts" who could have been Franchise QB's in better circumstances, and there are Franchise QB's who would have been busts if you put them on the Jets.

I'm hoping that Morton & Bates are asked their opinion on these guys coming out. It amazes me that guys like Rex & Tanny go to a pro day & salivate all over a QB. WHAT THE F*CK do those to guys know about evaluating a QB?

Idzik? Macc? Seriously it blows my mind that Bill Obrien passed on CantHackit right BEFORE we picked him! Now, if the Texans were picking right after us & he was scared that Obrien wanted him, I could kind of understand it, but his college coach PASSED ON HIM! Um, Macc..REDRUM..REDRUM.

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the Claw

the Claw

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Obviously, we won’t be picking in the top 5. Top 10 is within reach, top 15 seems most likely. Like it or not, the supposed “top-tier” QBs will not be there when we pick. If the Jets decide to go for a QB, they’ll be looking in the 2nd tier. MAYBE, just maybe, someone falls into their range like the last two drafts, but it’s highly unlikely. That’s just the facts. Why get so up-in-arms about it? The Jets will take who they take and nothing I say or want will change that. They may pick Mayfield, they may pick a LB out of Iowa or some crap. All I ever ask is that they pick some kid who will produce. I’ve gone this long without a Super Bowl, what’s another 10 years. I enjoy watching the game, a SB is a cherry on top, but it’s not a prerequisite for my enjoying the game.

It’s just sports.

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Beerfish

Beerfish

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29 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'll do you one further.  In many cases it's not who you draft, it's how you develop them, support them, and what talent you put around them.

I.e. there are "busts" who could have been Franchise QB's in better circumstances, and there are Franchise QB's who would have been busts if you put them on the Jets.

A number of folks here would say that about Geno.  They might even be right.  

I said way back when, and say to this day, that Patrick Ramsey was a guy who coulda shoulda, but the Skins ruined him.

You put an Eli Manning on the Browns or Jets......yeah, bust.

So sure, it;s the guy you pick, but as much it's the organization you surround him with too.

Jeff Fisher and Goff vs Sean McVay and Goff

Todd bowles and newly high drafted jets Qb vs any man with an offensive pulse and new highly drafted jets QB.

 

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dbatesman

dbatesman

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1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

They were valid when we were tanking the season for one of them. It was awesome that we were tossing an entire season in March because they were so good. Genius, even. Now that we won't be, they definitely are not that great and we won't be missing out on much.

IMG_4273.GIF

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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1 hour ago, 68JET11 said:

Does it matter at this point, Bowles has proven that he won't play whoever we pick anyway... Not that I think Hack or Petty are any good, but how will we even know. And I don't want to hear we got a look at Petty last year 4 games. I still and always will contend the team quit at that point.

I don't even like Bowles as the HC, but no he hasn't.

Only thing I really see is that he's merely shown he won't play bad young players as readily as he'll play bad older players. 

Just because fans don't see the backups on TV doesn't therefore mean the coaching staff don't see them over & over & over, every week in a row, for months on end.

I don't know where this fantasy got invented that nobody on the team can see or know anything about a player until he's getting live snaps on TV. Coaches do see stuff before that. 

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

They were valid when we were tanking the season for one of them. It was awesome that we were tossing an entire season in March because they were so good. Genius, even. Now that we won't be, they definitely are not that great and we won't be missing out on much.

"Why, with the pick we're going to secure next year we could have our pick of 6 QBs, all of whom are better than anybody from 2017's draft."

- JetNation, May 2017

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RutgersJetFan

RutgersJetFan

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13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

"Why, with the pick we're going to secure next year we could have our pick of 6 QBs, all of whom are better than anybody from 2017's draft."

- JetNation, May 2017

It's almost like this plan was doomed from the start and passing on a quarterback when you're in a position to get one is ******* stupid.

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SenorGato

SenorGato

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2 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

It's almost like this plan was doomed from the start and passing on a quarterback when you're in a position to get one is ******* stupid.

OK but Watson could only throw 5 MPH at the combine and the average NFL starter averages 6.3 so like do the math anal-licktics buddy 

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redlichtie

redlichtie

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5 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Allen is a much  better athlete than Hack was/is. Allen, like Hack, has ZERO help this year. His team is awful so it's tough to evaluate him. Allen seems like the perfect guy for a team like the Giants/Ravens to draft and develop behind Vets on their way out. He has all the tools, but obviously tougher to project his success when he struggled this year. 

Baker Mayfield has FAR more success but in the big 12 we have seen guys like Landry Jones/Mccoy/Chase Daniel/Klingsbury/RG3/Weeden/Petty/Weeden look amazing slinging the ball all over the field only to have zero NFL careers. Fans, especially on this board, obssess over stats and wins in college, but that is a very superficial way of evaluating QBs.

At this point, I would take any of these guys and take my chances, but my pecking Order (for now) is still 

1- Darnold- The next Aaron Rodgers

2- Rosen- Injury history and dedication issues. But has the best arm

3- Mayfield- A mix between Brees/Flutie/Manziel. 

4- Allen- Upside is Wentz, downside is Hack- 

5- Lamar Jackson- Poor man's Vick

Then you  have guys like Mason Rudolph/Lock/Falk/

I know stats aren’t everything but Jackson is waaaay ahead of Vick as a prospect and Vick went No1 overall....honestly think people are sleeping on Jackson big time, As a passer there’s no comparison and I’ve rarely seen anyone run like Jackson, the question is if he can develop into a legit pocket passer or if his ceiling is Tyrod Taylor(still not too shabby)but if Michael Vick can have a significant NFL career(and remember there was a time pre the dog-fighting downfall where he was an elite threat at QB) then I don’t see how Jackson can’t be a successful NFL QB.....’poor man’s Vick’ does not do him justice IMO

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Philc1

Philc1

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Posted
4 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Simply put they aren't. Nobody is a given.

To be completely honest, i'm starting to jump on the Baker Mayfield train. My gut tells me he's going to be really good as long as he matures at the NFL level. 

Mayfield = Manziel

 

Gonna be fun watching this guy bust

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BCJet

BCJet

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14 hours ago, Philc1 said:

And I love the dismissal job Lamar Jackson is getting.  He’s the second best qb in this draft class

Interesting - on the exact day that a scout was quotes as saying what a "lazy comparison the mayfield-manziel" comparison is as they aren't remotely similar, someone here makes it.

Mayfield plays QB with exceptional accuracy and pocket presence while spreading the ball around.  Manziel ran around and heaved balls to mike evans.

Very similar

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Paradis

Paradis

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14 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Mayfield = Manziel

Gonna be fun watching this guy bust

You have the right to your opinion that he's gonna bust, but the manziel comparison is fcking lazy as hell. What do they have in common again? Height?? That's like saying every black qb is michael vick.

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Drums

Drums

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15 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Mayfield = Manziel

 

Gonna be fun watching this guy bust

Really? They look a lot different to me. First of all he’s not throwing to Mike Evans. Second, Baker loves the game. Seems like he’d die on the field. Doesn’t have the same mentality at all. What about him tells you they are equals? Their size? 

A lot of people thought Manziel would bust. I haven’t heard too many people get on Mayfield. The guy’s a winner. 

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jetrider

jetrider

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56 minutes ago, Paradis said:

You have the right to your opinion that he's gonna bust, but the manziel comparison is fcking lazy as hell. What do they have in common again? Height?? That's like saying every black qb is michael vick.

Immaturity, behavioral issues, and lack of professionalism which may worsen with money. Your physical comparison is fcking lazy as hell.

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Paradis

Paradis

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8 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Immaturity, behavioral issues, and lack of professionalism which may worsen with money. Your physical comparison is fcking lazy as hell.

Apologies if i don't lump in a crazy blowcaine habit, whores and the whole rick james lifestyle -- into the same category as getting drunk at 21 and arrested, for what could have happened to 80% of this board at that age in college. IMO they don't prepare the same, they don't lead the same, they don't play the same.  If Baker was 6'3, nobody would be using those two names in the same sentence. I mean christ, how many college players get arrested again? and THAT's the one you're going to use as a measuring stick? 

I WANT the guy who flipped off the other team with dick grab. That's the guy NY needs. 

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Paradis

Paradis

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15 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Immaturity, behavioral issues, and lack of professionalism which may worsen with money. Your physical comparison is fcking lazy as hell.

 

"Comparisons between Baker Mayfield and Johnny Manziel are absurd"

http://www.ajc.com/sports/college/phil-steele-comparisons-between-baker-mayfield-and-johnny-manziel-are-absurd/cDIHrmszFzQYKsUD38a2LM/

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