Why are Darnold & Rosen givens?

[jetrider]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

Apologies if i don't lump in a crazy blowcaine habit, whores and the whole rick james lifestyle -- into the same category as getting drunk at 21 and arrested, for what could have happened to 80% of this board at that age in college. They don't prepare the same, they don't lead the same, they don't play the same. LAZY AS FCK to compare them. How many college players get arrested again? 

I WANT the guy who flipped off the other team with dick grab. That's the guy NY needs. 

For the record, I want Darnold + new HC, but would love to have Mayfield on this team. His talent is legit. He brings back the Namath rockstar attitude. He'll tell Bowles to go f his braindead QB competitions and take over the starting job. 

[Paradis]

16 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Immaturity, behavioral issues, and lack of professionalism which may worsen with money. Your physical comparison is fcking lazy as hell.

 

http://waitingfornextyear.com/2017/11/to-evaluate-baker-mayfield-try-to-forget-johnny-football/

 

[Paradis]

1 minute ago, jetrider said:

For the record, I want Darnold + new HC, but would love to have Mayfield on this team. His talent is legit. He brings back the Namath rockstar attitude. He'll tell Bowles to go f his braindead QB competitions and take over the starting job. 

Yes! That's what i'm talking about. 

I mean at the end of the day, each individual is his own entity - and their future/destiny will unfold in it's own wake. We can learn lessons from past failures, but we have to evaluate each person in and of themselves.

Is Baker more likely to flame out as an under-prepared, party animal -- or is he more likely to lead a team, do the homework and match the NFL's intensity?... I think his personality gravitates towards the latter, myself.

[jetrider]

11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Apologies if i don't lump in a crazy blowcaine habit, whores and the whole rick james lifestyle -- into the same category as getting drunk at 21 and arrested, for what could have happened to 80% of this board at that age in college. IMO they don't prepare the same, they don't lead the same, they don't play the same.  If Baker was 6'3, nobody would be using those two names in the same sentence. I mean christ, how many college players get arrested again? and THAT's the one you're going to use as a measuring stick? 

I WANT the guy who flipped off the other team with dick grab. That's the guy NY needs. 

That's my point. NFL money will escalate to worse behavior if that's where his head is. I didn't read the links. The whole maturity issue is major, so major it makes or breaks many players. It's the whole reason Manziel is done. Talent-wise Manziel was no Mayfield to begin with. I hope Mayfield is all about a football career and not about hitting the party $$$ jackpot on draft day. 

[Paradis]

6 minutes ago, jetrider said:

That's my point. NFL money will escalate to worse behavior if that's where his head is. I didn't read the links. The whole maturity issue is major, so major it makes or breaks many players. It's the whole reason Manziel is done. Talent-wise Manziel was no Mayfield to begin with. I hope Mayfield is all about a football career and not about hitting the party $$$ jackpot on draft day. 

I guess I see the whole "maturity issue" as more complex than that. Maturity is not fused to decision making. Making poor decisions can come from a litany of situational & environmental pressures and influences. IOW there's a variety things that can lead  a person to make a poor decision, beyond just being immature. Character is the real measure.

What kind of character does Mayfield have? I still feel good about the answer to that question.

[SenorGato]

What are the Mayfield/Manziel comps even based on? Height?

[JPPT1974]

Maturity is about growing up. Learning how to deal with issues. Not just on the field. But off it. Most of all.

[JetFaninMI]

23 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah well so is your face. Hope you get everlasting hiccups from drinking all that Haterade, jerk.

 

[BurnleyJet]

Darnold = Franchise

Rosen = Franchise

Mayfield = Farve

Jackson = Vick

Allen = Hackenberg

No Josh Allen!!! 

[Charlie Brown]

2 hours ago, Paradis said:

 

"Comparisons between Baker Mayfield and Johnny Manziel are absurd"

http://www.ajc.com/sports/college/phil-steele-comparisons-between-baker-mayfield-and-johnny-manziel-are-absurd/cDIHrmszFzQYKsUD38a2LM/

I don't know much about college football but it seems like to me that Baker Mayfield is a player, a real player........

[FidelioJet]

2 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Darnold = Franchise

Rosen = Franchise

Mayfield = Farve

Jackson = Vick

Allen = Hackenberg

No Josh Allen!!! 

The sad thing is the 2 more wins we're going to get will push us out of the running for the top 4 guys.  Allen will be the Jets draft pick and we're in for 2-3 more years of journeymen and 5-9 win seasons;

[Patriot Killa]

56 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The sad thing is the 2 more wins we're going to get will push us out of the running for the top 4 guys.  Allen will be the Jets draft pick and we're in for 2-3 more years of journeymen and 5-9 win seasons;

I just don’t feel like Mac is going to even touch Allen, especially considering he was already considered a project for playing poorly against weak competition. I think Mac would do what he has to in order to move up way before he reaches on Allen. Hackenberg had to of taught him a lesson. But I’m not basing that off of my belief we won’t entertain Allen..I just honestly think no GM in their right mind would do it, regardless. 

[Rangers9]

If we are in striking distance of getting Darnold I'd go for it. But not not giving up two years worth of draft picks. We are close enough to being a good team next season. With a good draft and free agents we could upgrade a lot of positions. Qb has not been a weakness this season. 

[pdxgreen]

Love this Mayfield kid's makeup.  He's got a quiet confidence that just speaks volumes.  We gotta get him. 

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, BCJet said:

Interesting - on the exact day that a scout was quotes as saying what a "lazy comparison the mayfield-manziel" comparison is as they aren't remotely similar, someone here makes it.

Mayfield plays QB with exceptional accuracy and pocket presence while spreading the ball around.  Manziel ran around and heaved balls to mike evans.

Very similar

Give me a break they are very similar styles of play on and off the field.  Sorry if that scout thinks I’m lazy

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Darnold = Franchise

Rosen = Franchise

Mayfield = Farve

Jackson = Vick

Allen = Hackenberg

No Josh Allen!!! 

Darnold = franchise

Rosen = injury prone

Mayfield = Kellen Clemens\Manziel

Jackson = Deshaun Watson

 

 

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

If we are in striking distance of getting Darnold I'd go for it. But not not giving up two years worth of draft picks. We are close enough to being a good team next season. With a good draft and free agents we could upgrade a lot of positions. Qb has not been a weakness this season. 

We have 0.0 shot at trading up into the top 2 picks unless we lose out

[Rangers9]

11 hours ago, Philc1 said:

We have 0.0 shot at trading up into the top 2 picks unless we lose out

Then we don't get him I hope. But if we're at 10 and he drops to 5 there is a legit chance to make that deal. 

[68JET11]

On 12/8/2017 at 4:39 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't even like Bowles as the HC, but no he hasn't.

Only thing I really see is that he's merely shown he won't play bad young players as readily as he'll play bad older players. 

Just because fans don't see the backups on TV doesn't therefore mean the coaching staff don't see them over & over & over, every week in a row, for months on end.

I don't know where this fantasy got invented that nobody on the team can see or know anything about a player until he's getting live snaps on TV. Coaches do see stuff before that. 

Figures RES would react possitively.  Sperm, I don't necessarily disagree with you about fans and how they can determine what is seen behind the scenes, however I do recall reading something, that basically stated that once the season started, (either Gailey or Morton) that the backups, don't have as much of their attention as they do in preseason. We all complained about Gailey not even working with Hack or Petty I seem to remember. Anyway, I guess most fans just want to see what they have before committing to the trash bin.

[nyjunc]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, Jetster said:

I keep seeing Jet fans posting, "we have to move up or we'll miss out on our franchise QB". When the hell has it ever been a given that a college QB is a sure fire franchise QB? Payton & Eli Manning maybe, based on the genetic trail from Archie. 

So everyone's positive that if the Jets are picking between 12-15 there is no way a QB will be there worthy of the pick. It's ridiculous. By time the draft rolls around everyone of these guys will be dissected and holes will be found in their games, their arms, their brains, their feet, their health, my god after everyone dismissed what Deshaun Watson did winning two championships beating Alabama twice coached by Nick Saban, it was believed by most that 49 mph throws just don't cut it in the NFL (Joe Montana probably had a 45 mph arm but I font even think they tested that sh*t back in the day). According to this board 7 QBs will probably be taken in the 1st ten picks, lol. You hope you get Aaron Rogers (pick 24) instead of Alex Smith (#1 overall) in 2005. You hope you get Russell Wilson (75), instead of RG111 (#2), getting Russell @ 75 has actually turned out better for the Seahawks than the Colts getting Luck @ #1, or Tannyhill @ 8, but according to the poster here 2018 will be the draft when every organization gets it right! No mistakes in 2018 by golly. Everyone's learned from the past drafts & because there is SO MUCH information if your not picking one or two? Fuggetaboutit! 

I've been enjoying Warfish take on this whole thing. It is what it is, no one knows who will be great, who will suck, who will succeed, who will fail, who will have a career ending injury. We'll pick where we pick & we might get lucky and we might not. It's the reason I'm interested in Cousins if possible, at least he's a known commodity. Money? What the hell of I care? It's not my money. If they don't spend it it's not like Woody will reduce the price of a beer at Metlife. Maybe we can let Kirk sell Kirk Cola @ Metlife like Brady does at Gillette? Plenty of ways to skin a cat or cheat the salary cap, we just have to model this franchise more like the Pats.

So you guys keep giving me the list of future franchise QBs & pro bowlers at each position in this upcoming draft and I'll make notes and see how it all ends up 2 years from now. In the meantime I'll just imagine that what will most likely happen is we find another veteran for Bowles because there ain't no way in hell, if he's the head coach of the NYJ that a rookie QB is under center in 2018. Bank on that. So good luck with your prognostications, write them down in indelible ink & we'll tear them apart a few years from now. 

no one is a sure thing and "sure fire franchise QB like Peyton or Eli"?  WHAT????? Peyton yes, Eli has been a solid starter but if he was our QB during these last 14 seasons we'd have run him out of town about 10 years ago.

[Hitman Harris]

They are not. Jonny Football was a given. Just like Tim Tebow

 

#iremember

[Patriot Killa]

6 minutes ago, Hitman Harris said:

They are not. Jonny Football was a given. Just like Tim Tebow

 

#iremember

Huh? No sir...

Tebow had major questions in his mechanics and slow wind up to the point they wanted to change it mid-combine.

 

Manziel was always viewed as a system QB who may or may not translate to the league well. Plus he was already a head case before the draft. He had huge questions and slided to 21.

 

dont know what you remember..but it did not shake out like that.

[BCJet]

On 12/9/2017 at 3:20 PM, Paradis said:

I guess I see the whole "maturity issue" as more complex than that. Maturity is not fused to decision making. Making poor decisions can come from a litany of situational & environmental pressures and influences. IOW there's a variety things that can lead  a person to make a poor decision, beyond just being immature. Character is the real measure.

What kind of character does Mayfield have? I still feel good about the answer to that question.

Mayfield is definitely more of a favre type guy who wears his emotions on his sleeves (both good and bad) and is more likely to have beers with his offensive line, then a guy like Eli who was a buttoned up, QB.

That being said, the biggest difference between manziel and mayfield is that Texas A&M was dying to get manziel out of there as he was nothing but a problem, whereas Mayfield's coaches and teammates rave about him.  If he wasnt putting in the work, he wouldnt be as revered at OK as he is.

[Patriot Killa]

6 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Mayfield is definitely more of a favre type guy who wears his emotions on his sleeves (both good and bad) and is more likely to have beers with his offensive line, then a guy like Eli who was a buttoned up, QB.

That being said, the biggest difference between manziel and mayfield is that Texas A&M was dying to get manziel out of there as he was nothing but a problem, whereas Mayfield's coaches and teammates rave about him.  If he wasnt putting in the work, he wouldnt be as revered at OK as he is.

Exactly. That is their guy. You can tell he is the leader. They feed off his emotion and his excellent play. Manziel was getting money for autographs. Mocking the situation on national tv. He was a douchebag on campus. One other thing I love about Baker is he got PLENTY of reps. He played until his senior year which is not something you see out of 1st round QB’s anymore. He has some experience if anything.

[sourceworx]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:51 PM, Paradis said:

Apologies if i don't lump in a crazy blowcaine habit, whores and the whole rick james lifestyle -- into the same category as getting drunk at 21 and arrested, for what could have happened to 80% of this board at that age in college. IMO they don't prepare the same, they don't lead the same, they don't play the same.  If Baker was 6'3, nobody would be using those two names in the same sentence. I mean christ, how many college players get arrested again? and THAT's the one you're going to use as a measuring stick? 

I WANT the guy who flipped off the other team with dick grab. That's the guy NY needs. 

Agreed. Mayfield's attitude is more Phillip Rivers than Johnny Manziel. 

[sourceworx]

On 12/8/2017 at 10:42 PM, Philc1 said:

And I love the dismissal job Lamar Jackson is getting.  He’s the second best qb in this draft class

I like Jackson too. My only worry is his frame is kind of small, and that combined with his style of play means he may not last very long in the league.

But I love his skill set. He could be a really exciting player in this offense with the speed that we have at receiver.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

Figures RES would react possitively.  Sperm, I don't necessarily disagree with you about fans and how they can determine what is seen behind the scenes, however I do recall reading something, that basically stated that once the season started, (either Gailey or Morton) that the backups, don't have as much of their attention as they do in preseason. We all complained about Gailey not even working with Hack or Petty I seem to remember. Anyway, I guess most fans just want to see what they have before committing to the trash bin.

Show me a team that pays equal attention to the backups as they do to the starters, and I'll show you a team that sucks even though they occasionally promote one younger player a little faster.

Only Gailey is Gailey. He had his own reasons, motivations, etc. It's unfair to pin his actions (or inactions) on others.

I'm totally sympathetic that you and others want to see them play instead of McCown. So do I. The answer is you don't put McCown on the roster in the first place (or Fitzpatrick before him, or McCown/other for next year). Bowles is a weak presence as it is; it's a rare coach who can make the team suffer through a season of Hackenberg when the whole locker room knows they'd be winning a bunch of games - and they'd look better on the field themselves - with McCown out there instead. 

It's not a video game. The coaches and the rest of the players have personalities, goals, and things that motivate or de-motivate them. You want to see Petty/Hackenberg out there? Don't sign McCown or Fitz. Or on the receiving end, you want to see Stewart or Hansen out there? Don't bring in Kearse and Kerley.

It's really that simple. You can't really expect a HC or OC to want to play a bad player instead of a player they believe gives them a far better chance of winning games. Wins keep them employed, not tanking or shots in the dark that a player who can't throw straight with a red jersey on will suddenly put it all together when defenders are trying to remove his head from his torso.

[Warfish]

23 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You want to see Petty/Hackenberg out there? Don't sign McCown or Fitz. Or on the receiving end, you want to see Stewart or Hansen out there? Don't bring in Kearse and Kerley.

Had I been the GM thats exactly what I'd have done.

No McCown, Hack and/or Petty would start.

No Kerley, Stewart and Hanson would get those snaps.

We must stop filling our holes with broke down old castoff veterans, and start developing our own talent.

[Ex-Rex]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:41 AM, Jetster said:

It's the reason I'm interested in Cousins if possible, at least he's a known commodity. Money? What the hell of I care? It's not my money.

First of all you are operating under the assumption that the Redskins are brain dead. They would have to be to let a talented QB like Cousins get away. I don't see him as a franchise savior however because look at the Skins record. He is a lot like Tony Romo in that he puts up nice looking numbers, but the wins elude him.

[HessStation]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:02 PM, UnitedWhofans said:

OT, People compare Josh Allen to Hackenberg based on type which is valid.

The big difference I see is that many people had HAckenberg not being drafted at all while Josh Allen has been slated to go 1st or 2nd round.

SO what is the difference between them?

 

On 12/8/2017 at 12:06 PM, HighPitch said:

Wow a good point from uwf

Is this conversation really happening

[HessStation]

Not a given but that's not the point. If you don't get that ur dumb

[PepPep]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:59 AM, MDL_JET said:

Nobody is saying their sure thing franchise guy. Of course they can fall flat on their face. I think the point is we're tired of settling for the 3rd or 4th best guy in the draft. Rather have what's considered the most talented QB in the draft and work with that then to hope the 3rd or 4th hits. Jets have not been lucky, so we're hoping to limit that as much as possible by taking the best guy. 

This. I mean what is the point of this thread really?

Hey guys, keep prognosticating and I will come back in two years with 20/20 vision and let you know how wrong all of you are. 

The Jets need a QB. They need one desperately. It is the most important position. You want first crack at selecting your guy. To do that, you usually have to have a very high draft pick b/c you are not the only one looking for a QB. And for the record, no, the top prospect doesn't always end up living up to his potential. But there's a reason why he's the top prospect. It's not random, like, at all. And we really have to keep injuries out of the equation, b/c unless a player is clearly injury prone, you really never know how durable they will be, you just don't know, so it shouldn't really factor into the decision. Nobody thought Luck would get hurt the way he did (possibly career ending). He was a very durable QB both in college and the NFL. You maybe could have predicted RG3's injuries b/c he runs a lot and has a slight build despite his frame. But he too had no injury history coming into the NFL.    

[PepPep]

17 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

First of all you are operating under the assumption that the Redskins are brain dead. They would have to be to let a talented QB like Cousins get away. I don't see him as a franchise savior however because look at the Skins record. He is a lot like Tony Romo in that he puts up nice looking numbers, but the wins elude him.

Well, if the Redskins were NOT dumb they would have locked Cousins up by now. Why did they tag him? Obviously they are either dumb or too smart for their own good, or simply not sold on him- as you pointed out with the lack of wins.

But in defense of Cousins I will say that Washington did beat Seattle, LA Rams and Oak as 3 of their 5 wins. And they have been dealing with injuries. And lets be honest, they were not THAT good to begin with. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Had I been the GM thats exactly what I'd have done.

No McCown, Hack and/or Petty would start.

No Kerley, Stewart and Hanson would get those snaps.

We must stop filling our holes with broke down old castoff veterans, and start developing our own talent.

I can at least get past one or the other being some more experienced players. So if you want to see what a young QB's got, it's not a great tryout if he's throwing to a bunch of rookies who run the wrong way (among other things they get better at over time). Opposite for trying out the WRs, where you don't get such a great look at the kiddies if Petty or Hackenberg are throwing it behind them (or too far ahead, or too high, too low, or to the opposition outright).

But hey, I agree 100% that McCown and 2 veteran WRs was a stupid thing to add. Few HCs are on solid enough ground to let ineptitude stand for a full season. That is, unless they're forced to take that long look because there's no one else to play (see Cleveland).
 

You fire Bowles and replace him with another in the same situation, you'll likely get the same outcome. How many coaches are going to nail themselves to the cross so Hackenberg and Stewart can get live reps for a season? If a HC can win 6 games instead of 2, he's going to do that. Especially if he sees them sucking ass in practice.

The answer is to replace them both; neither is up to the task. "Well we're going to build up from the ground here in our 3rd season. And to further this goal, here's Josh McCown and a couple of veteran WRs, and I'm keeping Matt Forte on the roster as well." A GM with such mindlessness, as his idea of using good judgment, is pointless to extend; the future will be more of the same.

[Warfish]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I can at least get past one or the other being some more experienced players. So if you want to see what a young QB's got, it's not a great tryout if he's throwing to a bunch of rookies who run the wrong way (among other things they get better at over time). Opposite for trying out the WRs, where you don't get such a great look at the kiddies if Petty or Hackenberg are throwing it behind them (or too far ahead, or too high, too low, or to the opposition outright).

I reject this outright.  WR's know how to run routes.  QB's know how to throw footballs.  They've both been doing it for ~10-14 years before they hit the NFL.

Yes, both have to learn the system they'll be in, but so does any newcomer.  

I'm not resigning McCown so the "WR's can get a fair look" and I'm not resigning Kerley so the "young QB can get a fair look".  

You sign the players who are best for where your organization is and let the best of them play, age is an irrelevancy bad coaches and bad GM's hide behind because they're more afraid to get fired than they are of being honest with their owners.

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

But hey, I agree 100% that McCown and 2 veteran WRs was a stupid thing to add.

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Few HCs are on solid enough ground to let ineptitude stand for a full season. That is, unless they're forced to take that long look because there's no one else to play (see Cleveland).

It's about time THIS franchise was forced, i.e. was not GIVEN "someone else to play" because the "someone else to play" concept has been an endless failure here.

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You fire Bowles and replace him with another in the same situation, you'll likely get the same outcome.

I fire Bowles because he's a bad NFL Head Coach.  Not because he played kids.

What I DO is this:

Resign Macc for 5 years guaranteed, no possibility of being fired.

Let Macc hire HIS Head Coach, who will report directly to him, not to the Owner.  Also a 5-year deal, also guaranteed/unfireable.

Then I tell them THIS:  Be a legit contender by year 5, or you're both gone.  Till then, do anything and everything as YOU pros see best.  I, Mr. Owner, am out.

In five years, if the 5-year resume isn't good enough and they're not a competitor, I fire them all and try again.  If they ARE good/copmpetative, I resign them all for five more years.

Five Year Plans.  Like Stalin, only football.