Do we really want Kirk Cousins?

[SenorGato]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This isn't about Woody's pocket book...There's a salary cap that has to be spent by league rules. As fans we're trying to determine the best way in which to spend that money.  

For the purposes of this debate and thread it is our money to spend.

Cousins is zero threat to the short or likely even the long term salary cap.

[RoadFan]

1 hour ago, Grandy said:

I'd want him. He's been top 5 for the last 3 years, still pretty young, and when you look at his stats, he'd probably be the best QB we've ever had.

Top 5?!?!?!

Top 5?!?!?!

That notion is so absurd I don't even have a worthy response.

[SenorGato]

Just now, shevys said:

Is "he"? What about the rest of his team? Do they count, or was he playing 1 vs 11? 

It’s QB vs everyone except when it is coaches vs coaches 

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

The guy plays in the most stacked division in the most stacked conference and presides over a pretty damn mediocre Redskins team. 

I’m not going to fault the hell out of him for not going 13-3 and winning multiple playoff games every year. If he managed that, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion right now.

we're in a division with possibly the best team of all times and another team that just made the playoffs.  

I guess the question I have for the people that want him...let's say he plays until he's 36 - so six years (or at least at his current level)

Would you be happy with two wildcard playoff appearance with maybe one win?  Because I wouldn't.  

 

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Cousins is zero threat to the short or likely even the long term salary cap.

IF $30mm a year isn't a threat to cap space..What is?

[SenorGato]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

we're in a division with possibly the best team of all times and another team that just made the playoffs.  

I guess the question I have for the people that want him...let's say he plays until he's 36 - so six years (or at least at his current level)

Would you be happy with two wildcard playoff appearance with maybe one win?  Because I wouldn't.  

 

I would accept it, already have actually. See I am so desperate to feel anything at QB that,  despite knowing this outcome already, he must be signed. 

OTOH if a rookie is drafted, plays until he is 36, and they make two WC appearances with one win it will be fine because he came cheap! I would enjoy those savings over the next 14-15 years.

[First_Blood]

Not a big fan of Cousins at all. He's another above average type QB. Would rather resign McCown, draft another one, and have Petty and Hackenburg battle it out for the #3 spot.

 

McCown knows the system if OC's do not change, a quality teammate/leader type, and would be a hell of a lot cheaper. The money if Mac were to throw at Cousins would be better off using towards the offensive line, IMO. We need a center, another guard, and preferably LT. I'm just not a real Cousins fan. Never was. I would rather have McCown back for another year then have Cousins. Please stay away Mac.

[Untouchable]

13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

we're in a division with possibly the best team of all times and another team that just made the playoffs.  

I guess the question I have for the people that want him...let's say he plays until he's 36 - so six years (or at least at his current level)

Would you be happy with two wildcard playoff appearance with maybe one win?  Because I wouldn't.  

 

Yeah, we’re in a division with the best team...whose HOF QB and HC are at most two years away from being history and the entire division will be up for grabs.

And we’d have a Top 10 QB at 31/32 years old while Miami is still probably dicking around with Tannehill and Buffalo is doing god knows what. Buffalo needed a last minute desperation score from Cincy to even squeak into the playoffs. I’m not shaking in my boots over them, especially after we beat the brakes off of them 2 months ago with a 38 year old McCown and one of the least talented rosters in the league.

Kirk Cousins >>> Tyrod and Tannehill 

And I’m not even going to play hypotheticals about how many playoff games Cousins would potentially win here. All I know is that he’s a pretty damn good QB who would instantly become the best signal caller we’ve had probably since Kenny O in the mid-80’s. That’s good enough for me. Let the rest of it fall as it may.

 

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

I would accept it, already have actually. See I am so desperate to feel anything at QB that,  despite knowing this outcome already, he must be signed. 

OTOH if a rookie is drafted, plays until he is 36, and they make two WC appearances with one win it will be fine because he came cheap! I would enjoy those savings over the next 14-15 years.

It's not about necessarily the money it's the best way to allocate that moeny.

I would rather have the $30mm to build support around a young QB - as opposed to paying $30mm to a 30 year old QB and not the resources to build a team around him that will be required with his skill-set.

Again, this isn't about being competitive it's what's the more likely scenario to winning a super bowl.  As long as a shot it is - drafting a QB now - gives us a better chance to win a super bowl than paying $30mm to Cousins.  Winning a Super Bowl is the ONLY thing I care about.

At least that's my opinion.

[SenorGato]

24 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

IF $30mm a year isn't a threat to cap space..What is?

I don’t know but that is pretty sensational. Maybe I should reconsider. 

[SenorGato]

8 minutes ago, First_Blood said:

Not a big fan of Cousins at all. He's another above average type QB. Would rather resign McCown, draft another one, and have Petty and Hackenburg battle it out for the #3 spot.

 

McCown knows the system if OC's do not change, a quality teammate/leader type, and would be a hell of a lot cheaper. The money if Mac were to throw at Cousins would be better off using towards the offensive line, IMO. We need a center, another guard, and preferably LT. I'm just not a real Cousins fan. Never was. I would rather have McCown back for another year then have Cousins. Please stay away Mac.

Another! They’re all over the place these above average QB’s!

All these above average QBs laying around but they should select McCown? 

[munchmemory]

Cousins=Neil O'Donnell 2.0

[joebagadonuts7]

I don't think it's borderline.  By any measure I can think of he's solidly in the 6-10 range in terms of performance.  And that's with a below average roster to work with.
And for everyone barking about him being 29,  almost all of the best QBs in the league right now are far older.  Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers are all at least 36 and still balling.  So a five year deal doesn't really seem to bring us past his potential prime.  
I'll say it again.  I'm not claiming he's a sure thing to be our savior, but he is far more of a sure thing than almost any other option out there.  I'd love to land Rosen, or Mayfield if that's how the draft falls, but I would be very excited for Jets football in 2018 if we landed Cousins and got him some OL help and maybe another RB to work with.

As a player cousins is 27. He sat the first two years


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[joebagadonuts7]

It couldn’t be more obvious that they are going for him. These guys have been chasing him for three years now. He will complete Bowles’ dream roster capable of 7-8 wins. 

We could offer him a Bobby Bonilla type deal over 15 years!


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[slats]

1 hour ago, Patriot Killa said:

30 years old when the season starts. I’d personally pass for that fact alone. I mean..if we wind up getting him, the only way I’m not mad is if we do so well we win 10 plus games and go to the playoffs. And even then i’d Still feel robbed because it’ll take forever to get another guy worthy of FQB status long after Cousins. But i want Baker. I want Rosen. I want a guy who has a chance to do just as good or better for 10 plus years. These attractive bandaid options are getting tedious. We are always screaming about the alternative way until we take it and then we want to revert back to our organizations ways when the opportunity presents itself.

If the Jets were to sign Cousins, it would be to be the starter for the next five years or so, at which point Hackenberg should be pretty close to ready to take over. 

[JoJoTownsell1]

19 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

30 years old when the season starts. I’d personally pass for that fact alone. I mean..if we wind up getting him, the only way I’m not mad is if we do so well we win 10 plus games and go to the playoffs. And even then i’d Still feel robbed because it’ll take forever to get another guy worthy of FQB status long after Cousins. But i want Baker. I want Rosen. I want a guy who has a chance to do just as good or better for 10 plus years. These attractive bandaid options are getting tedious. We are always screaming about the alternative way until we take it and then we want to revert back to our organizations ways when the opportunity presents itself.

30 years old is too old? Brady is 40. Brees is 38. Rivers is 36. Roethlisberger is 35. Those 4 were in the top 5 in passing yards this year. 

Some of you are WAY too greedy. If Cousins produced at the same level as he has in Washington, he instantly becomes an all-time Jet great QB. Cousins managed to pass for 4k yards this year after losing via FA or Injury  Desean Jackson/Garcon/Jordan Reed/Chris Thompson. Those guys were replaced by Terrel Pryor who was an absolute bust/Jameison Crowder- Decent and a rookie Doctson that is still very raw. Despite all of those built in excuses, Cousins passed for 4,000 yards for the 3rd straight season. 

Put him on a Jets team with a roster that is improving (instead of devolving) and he will give us 5 years of high end QB production. With our young and improving Defense we should be playoff contenders every year. 
 

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

30 years old is too old? Brady is 40. Brees is 38. Rivers is 36. Roethlisberger is 35. Those 4 were in the top 5 in passing yards this year. 

Some of you are WAY too greedy. If Cousins produced at the same level as he has in Washington, he instantly becomes an all-time Jet great QB. Cousins managed to pass for 4k yards this year after losing via FA or Injury  Desean Jackson/Garcon/Jordan Reed/Chris Thompson. Those guys were replaced by Terrel Pryor who was an absolute bust/Jameison Crowder- Decent and a rookie Doctson that is still very raw. Despite all of those built in excuses, Cousins passed for 4,000 yards for the 3rd straight season. 

Put him on a Jets team with a roster that is improving (instead of devolving) and he will give us 5 years of high end QB production. With our young and improving Defense we should be playoff contenders every year. 
 

Those players you mentioned also have been playing at that level and putting together playoffs seasons their entire career. Kirk hasn’t. Even with Deshaun Jackson, ect, etc they STILL posted a 8 win record. I’m not passing on the opportunity to get a younger guy who could possibly maybe WIN more than 8 games or WIN a playoff game. I’m not too greedy, you guys are too desperate..rightfully so..but you don’t let that blind you in the grand scheme of things. You risk not being able to get a young FQB for another “5/6” years. We are in position to take our shot. 

[BCJet]

27 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This isn't about Woody's pocket book...There's a salary cap that has to be spent by league rules. As fans we're trying to determine the best way in which to spend that money.  

For the purposes of this debate and thread it is our money to spend.

Except that no one mentions that since the rookie pay scale was put into place, there is no longer such a thing as "cap hell".

The league, by putting in the rookie cap, freed up millions of dollars for teams to allocate to veterans each season AND to roll over if they dont spend it.  Thats why when you look, there are roughly 15 teams with huge money to spend whereas in the past it was 2 or 3 and a team like the Browns, with picks 1 and 4 would be paying 2 enormous signing bonuses which they no longer have to.

On top of that, it is very VERY rare for a player to hit FA that deserves a huge payday, as LT, Edge and QB rarely hit the market, so its not really a "Cousins or...." scenario.  If it was cousins or von miller, then sure, lets take miller and draft a QB, but since there are no Von Millers available in FA, spending $20 or $25 million per year on a proven QB, and drafting defense and oline to build around him, is not a bad strategy and also does not hurt the team long term.

[SenorGato]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's not about necessarily the money it's the best way to allocate that moeny.

I would rather have the $30mm to build support around a young QB - as opposed to paying $30mm to a 30 year old QB and not the resources to build a team around him that will be required with his skill-set.

Again, this isn't about being competitive it's what's the more likely scenario to winning a super bowl.  As long as a shot it is - drafting a QB now - gives us a better chance to win a super bowl than paying $30mm to Cousins.  Winning a Super Bowl is the ONLY thing I care about.

At least that's my opinion.

Sorry do they run out of “resources” once they pay Cousins? 

Maybe this exercise will help...

Say they only have $30 million and their draft picks to spend. Really they have nearly triple that $30 million to spend even before cuts are made, but say they have $30.

If that $30 million “only” buys an ancient 30 year old passer coming off 3 straight years ranked among the top dozen, twice in the top 7, what quality of FA support is this unknown cheaper, younger passer getting? If that money only buys you one over the hill loser, why could it suddenly land multiple studs elsewhere? 

[Patriot Killa]

29 minutes ago, BrickTamland said:

Kirk was not a big time Nfl prospect coming out of college.

He is not a celebrity in ads.

He is not a physical specimen.

He does not have a superstar personality. Someone who went to MSU told me that Kirk way was too nice for a football player.

For these reasons he is not seen as the answer, despite his stats and his dealing with bad o-line injuries and injuries to TE Reed, and the WR turnover in WAS.

However, these are reasons why he has a chip on his shoulder and why i personally like him a lot. At 30, he’s got at least 6-8 years of good play.

Why are smart posters saying he will take half of the salary cap. You know that’s BS. Come on dudes. I like college prospects too but those comments are dumb. 25M is not half of 180M. So stop with the silly talk. It’s approximately one-seventh.

Roughly 25TD to 12 INT and 4000 yards may not be worth 25M. That’s a fair argument. But don’t say it’s half the cap. 

It hinders our chances of getting a young guy this year. I like the young guys this year. That’s why. Baker can’t sit behind Cousins for 5-6 years. Rosen can’t either.

[bla bla bla]

10 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's not about necessarily the money it's the best way to allocate that moeny.

I would rather have the $30mm to build support around a young QB - as opposed to paying $30mm to a 30 year old QB and not the resources to build a team around him that will be required with his skill-set.

Again, this isn't about being competitive it's what's the more likely scenario to winning a super bowl.  As long as a shot it is - drafting a QB now - gives us a better chance to win a super bowl than paying $30mm to Cousins.  Winning a Super Bowl is the ONLY thing I care about.

At least that's my opinion.

I think it comes down to structure of contract. Eli, Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, Cam, Big Ben, Rivers, Brees, Carr and Ryan are all on teams that are considered SB contending teams and all take up over 12% of their teams cap space. There is no reason we can't offer the highest paid QB contract in NFL history and be under 12% by the time players need to be resigned. 

[The Crusher]

42 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Is a couple million dollars really worth the no? If you’re already comfortable at 22-24 what’s the big difference between 25-28? 

I was going to say 23-26. But honestly I would like to see him here.

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

30 years old is too old? Brady is 40. Brees is 38. Rivers is 36. Roethlisberger is 35. Those 4 were in the top 5 in passing yards this year. 

Some of you are WAY too greedy. If Cousins produced at the same level as he has in Washington, he instantly becomes an all-time Jet great QB. Cousins managed to pass for 4k yards this year after losing via FA or Injury  Desean Jackson/Garcon/Jordan Reed/Chris Thompson. Those guys were replaced by Terrel Pryor who was an absolute bust/Jameison Crowder- Decent and a rookie Doctson that is still very raw. Despite all of those built in excuses, Cousins passed for 4,000 yards for the 3rd straight season. 

Put him on a Jets team with a roster that is improving (instead of devolving) and he will give us 5 years of high end QB production. With our young and improving Defense we should be playoff contenders every year. 
 

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying - but that cap hit really limits what you can do to build around him quickly.  

If you have only 5 years of him and this roster that needs a lot of help.

He's going to need a lot to compete at a high level and win 11-12 games a year.

[CanadienJetsFan]

Crossing my fingers that Macc does it right but I'm not holding my breath, I've been a fan for 35+ years. From the Boomer, O'Donnell, Tebow type signings ( and I'm just scratching the surface ), signing a Smith or Cousins at a kazillion dollars would tell me that nothing has changed.

no more re-treads! !!!

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I think it comes down to structure of contract. Eli, Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, Cam, Big Ben, Rivers, Brees, Carr and Ryan are all on teams that are considered SB contending teams and all take up over 12% of their teams cap space. There is no reason we can't offer the highest paid QB contract in NFL history and be under 12% by the time players need to be resigned. 

They've had a decade to build a team around these guys. 

[UntouchableCrew]

1 hour ago, flgreen said:

I'm not really so sure they have dragged their feet.  If I remember correctly they offered him $53,000,000 guaranteed over 2 years, with $72,000,000 guaranteed for injury.

That's a lot of money by any standard.  I just think the Skins are going to let the offer stand, if someone is stupid enough to give him 30M, oh well, he's not worth it.  IMO he's not worth what they have offered

I'm just saying there's a reason why most NFL franchises with successful young QBs pull the trigger and pay the guy an absurd "market value" contract of $25mm a year even if he doesn't deserve it. The Skins are definitely hesitant to commit long term to the guy.

For those keeping score, Cousins had a lower QBR than Josh McCown this year.

[Ex-Rex]

2 hours ago, Freemanm said:

 

Jay Gruden: Kirk Cousins is a very good QB, but we’re 7-9

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 2, 2018, 12:47 PM EST

Getty Images

Does Washington coach Jay Gruden desperately want the team to spend whatever it will take to retain free agent quarterback Kirk Cousins this offseason? It sounds more like Gruden would be fine with having Cousins around but not overly disappointed if some other team out-bids them for Cousins’ services.

Gruden was asked to sum up Cousins’ season, and he answered, “I’m still in that evaluation process.”

That’s a bit of an odd statement. The season is over and Gruden has watched Cousins all year, not to mention last year, the year before that and the year before that. At this point, Gruden would seem to know what he has in Cousins.

So what does he have? Gruden noted both that Cousins played well and that he didn’t play enough to elevate the whole team during a challenging season.

“When you’re 7-9, you know it’s hard to say, ‘Wow, this guy really was outstanding,’” Gruden said. “Kirk had his flashes where he was really good. From a consistent standpoint, over the course of 16 games, you know, we’re 7-9. He did some great things, threw for over 4,000 yards and 29 touchdowns. So I think he’s a very, very good quarterback without a doubt, but as far as getting us over the hump from 7-9 to winning a division with all the injuries that we had, I think he competed and did some good things.”

So now the question is this: How much is Washington willing to pay a quarterback who is “very good” but not good enough to elevate them above 7-9? And if they invest more money in Cousins, how will they afford to improve elsewhere on the roster while still fitting under the league’s salary cap? And if they don’t pay Cousins, who will be their starting quarterback in 2018? Those won’t be easy questions to answer.

The Redskins were decimated with injuries and that was a MAJOR factor in being 7-9. If Gruden wants to be stupid and blame Cousins, if I am Mac daddy I sign this guy quick. He is without a doubt the best FA QB out there bar none.

[SenorGato]

10 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Those players you mentioned also have been playing at that level and putting together playoffs seasons their entire career. Kirk hasn’t. Even with Deshaun Jackson, ect, etc they STILL posted a 8 win record. I’m not passing on the opportunity to get a younger guy who could possibly maybe WIN more than 8 games or WIN a playoff game. I’m not too greedy, you guys are too desperate..rightfully so..but you don’t let that blind you in the grand scheme of things. You risk not being able to get a young FQB for another “5/6” years. We are in position to take our shot.

 

Cousins has started three seasons and finished among the top 7 QBs twice:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2016

He is 3 years younger than Matt Ryan and 3 months older than Russell Wilson.

My favorite part was DeSean Jackson aaaaaand etc etc

[UntouchableCrew]

2 hours ago, Grandy said:

I'd want him. He's been top 5 for the last 3 years, still pretty young, and when you look at his stats, he'd probably be the best QB we've ever had.

Which stats? Worse QBR than Josh McCown this very year.

[flgreen]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I'm just saying there's a reason why most NFL franchises with successful young QBs pull the trigger and pay the guy an absurd "market value" contract of $25mm a year even if he doesn't deserve it. The Skins are definitely hesitant to commit long term to the guy.

For those keeping score, Cousins had a lower QBR than Josh McCown this year.

I really wasn't arguing with you Bro, perhaps I worded it poorly.  Think we agree

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

Stats?

The thing about the QB position and the Jets is that they do not need stats. Stats do not win you football games. Cousin’s own coach called his heart, will, fire, and it right out and said this guy cannot win you more than 7 games. That is his own coach! 

So what happens if you give him all the cap space for all eternity like he demands? He throws some meaningless TDs? Yards? Complete alot of passes at a high rate? Jets do not need that, they need a QB that knows how to WIN. 

It will be a whole lot like this season where Bowles was rewarded for a 5-11 season. I don't think the Jets can win more than 5 games with Bowles as HC. McCown put up similar stats to Cousins and was in the top 10 in MOST catagories and yet the Bowles-led "lets play hard and call it a day" Jets only won 5 games.

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

 

Cousins has started three seasons and finished among the top 7 QBs twice:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2016

He is 3 years younger than Matt Ryan and 3 months older than Russell Wilson. 

I need to see his playoff record..and his regular season record now.

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Ex-Rex said:

Stats?

The thing about the QB position and the Jets is that they do not need stats. Stats do not win you football games. Cousin’s own coach called his heart, will, fire, and it right out and said this guy cannot win you more than 7 games. That is his own coach! 

This^ @SenorGato you even said it yourself 

[Untouchable]

For those asking if Cousins is so good, why haven’t the Redskins signed him longterm...

Who can explain how Dan Snyder’s goofy brain works?

This is the same f*ckhead who tossed a $100 million contract at an interior DL who was already known as lazy and cancerous at a time when the cap wasn’t nearly as high as it is now.

But he won’t do the same for a franchise QB who consistently produces and has never said peep to the media or acted out over still not having a longterm deal.

The Redskins are dumb. There’s your answer.

[JoJoTownsell1]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying - but that cap hit really limits what you can do to build around him quickly.  

If you have only 5 years of him and this roster that needs a lot of help.

He's going to need a lot to compete at a high level and win 11-12 games a year.

We have a young/cheap team. We will have about 100 million in cap space. You can give Cousins a deal that averages out to 25 million a year (give him 35 million this year) and you still have 65 million to use on OL/edge rusher/CB. Plus you still have the 6th pick (edge rusher/OL/CB), 2 2nd round picks, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and a returning Enunwa. 

We would become an instant playoff contender. 

Would I rather draft a franchise QB? Of course, but we didn't tank, we didn't end up with the 1st/2nd overall so now we would be left with the 3/4th best QB in this draft class.