Do we really want Kirk Cousins?

[Rangers9]

8 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

What are you talking about? The (8-7-1) Redskins did not make the playoffs last year. The game you are referring to happened in January 2016 (the 2015 season, his first as a starter)

 

Kirk Cousins Playoff Stats

You're right! I forgot Jan. 2016 is two years ago. 

[Sonny Werblin]

10 hours ago, adb280z said:

Is Cousins that far off from Matt Ryan?  Their production is pretty similar since Cousins became the starter.

You can not evaluate a starting QB on stats alone. One of the many ways in which Ryan differs from cousins is when the game is on the line Ryan wants the ball and far more often than not, he makes a play. Please, please, please go watch the 4th quarter of saints vs skins. That game is a microcosm of what cousins is.

[Sonny Werblin]

11 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Cousins only playoff appearance was in his first starting season (2015) and he went 63% 329 and 2 TDs for a QB rating of 91.7...Not sure that loss really falls on him.

Two minutes into the second quarter  skins were up 11-0.  The score was 17-11 Green Bay at half. In the second half cousins guided the offense to a TD. So in the final three quarters of play, much of it playing from behind and needing to score, cousins directed the offense to one TD. Final score 35-18.

A fine example of cousins putting up a nice stat line, but in reality sucking at doing what is needed to win games. And let's not forget, the game was in Washington.

[bla bla bla]

17 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Two minutes into the second quarter  skins were up 11-0.  The score was 17-11 Green Bay at half. In the second half cousins guided the offense to a TD. So in the final three quarters of play, much of it playing from behind and needing to score, cousins directed the offense to one TD. Final score 35-18.

A fine example of cousins putting up a nice stat line, but in reality sucking at doing what is needed to win games. And let's not forget, the game was in Washington.

Yea you're right that Cousins character plays some terrible defense, should probably stay away. He really should have blocked better too it was outrageous how he gave up 6 sacks.

[Sonny Werblin]

8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Yea you're right that Cousins character plays some terrible defense, should probably stay away. He really should have blocked better too it was outrageous how he gave up 6 sacks.

On the six sacks: did he hold the ball too long; fail to recognize an open receiver; call the wrong blocking scheme; not recognize a blitz and failed to go to his hot read..... Or was he just not have what it takes to make a play when his team needs him to? Regardless, none of it is the fault of the guy with the ball in his hands and who has control over all of those things because, after all, his stat line looks good 

[flgreen]

10 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Two minutes into the second quarter  skins were up 11-0.  The score was 17-11 Green Bay at half. In the second half cousins guided the offense to a TD. So in the final three quarters of play, much of it playing from behind and needing to score, cousins directed the offense to one TD. Final score 35-18.

A fine example of cousins putting up a nice stat line, but in reality sucking at doing what is needed to win games. And let's not forget, the game was in Washington.

Sounds like The D hung it up giving up 35 points in a bit over a half.  

Your right, you can't judge a QB only by looking at stats.  You have to actually watch him, and his team play to understand why they are coming up with L's.  I admit I haven't seen Cousins play all that much his being in the NFC and all.  I was opposed to signing Cousins for the money it is going to take  until last week.  I went to a Skins board just to see what Skins fans felt about him who had seen every snap he had taken.

There was a 30 page or so thread about his leaving.  I figured most of them would be reacting the way Jets' fans react when   a player is rejecting the Jets, and  doesn't want to resign.  Thought it would re-enforce my stance against paying him that kind of money.

I was very surprised with what I found in the thread.  The vast majority of the Skins posters love the guy.  They blame the whole mess on Snyder, and want Cousins back.  That's very rare in a fan base.  Some of them seem to think he is the best QB they have had since Joe Theismann. I had to reverse my view of the Cousins signing.

Recommend you go check out the thread it was posted a few days ago by the Skins fan who was in this thread 

 

[Sonny Werblin]

1 minute ago, flgreen said:

Sounds like The D hung it up giving up 35 points in a bit over a half.  

Your right, you can't judge a QB only by looking at stats.  You have to actually watch him, and his team play to understand why they are coming up with L's.  I admit I haven't seen Cousins play all that much his being in the NFC and all.  I was opposed to signing Cousins for the money it is going to take  until last week.  I went to a Skins board just to see what Skins fans felt about him who had seen every snap he had taken.

There was a 30 page or so thread about his leaving.  I figured most of them would be reacting the way Jets' fans react when   a player is rejecting the Jets, and  doesn't want to resign.  Thought it would re-enforce my stance against paying him that kind of money.

I was very surprised with what I found in the thread.  The vast majority of the Skins posters love the guy.  They blame the whole mess on Snyder, and want Cousins back.  That's very rare in a fan base.  Some of them seem to think he is the best QB they have had since Joe Theismann. I had to reverse my view of the Cousins signing.

Recommend you go check out the thread it was posted a few days ago by the Skins fan who was in this thread 

 

I have watched many skins games (my sister in law is a fan and comes over to watch them). Based on what I've seen, I want no part of cousins especially at the expected contract price. I feel the Jets best move is to try to trade up and select the highest rated QB on their board that is available.

[bla bla bla]

19 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

On the six sacks: did he hold the ball too long; fail to recognize an open receiver; call the wrong blocking scheme; not recognize a blitz and failed to go to his hot read..... Or was he just not have what it takes to make a play when his team needs him to? Regardless, none of it is the fault of the guy with the ball in his hands and who has control over all of those things because, after all, his stat line looks good 

If any of that was his fault I'm not writing the guy off after leading his team to the playoffs in his first season. You act like he has reached his ceiling at 29.

[LionelRichie]

19 hours ago, slats said:

Half the league makes the playoffs. I'm not interested in being a top 50% team, I want a championship team constructed. In today's NFL, that means an elite level QB. I don't see Cousins being that guy, and paying him $30M/year makes it more difficult to put the rest of a championship team together. It's riskier, but the more I think about it, the more I'm 100% in on the best rookie they can get at #6 (or higher with a trade up, if need be). Swing for the fences, pay him his slotted salary and build a team around him. 

so much material in this post: 

1. if playoffs were a random event, the Jets would have a 4% chance of not making it over the past 7 years.   shows you just how inept they have been.  

2.  I don't think it takes $30M to get cousins, but given that the Jets gave $17M to Wilk, $6M dead to Fitz, and $6 dead to Revis they can surely afford to pay Cousins with the lack of high paid players on the roster.   

3.  I agree on drafting a QB but this is the GM that passed on both Mahomes and Watson for a Safety.   Do you really want to risk another decade of ineptitude?   

[flgreen]

2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I have watched many skins games (my sister in law is a fan and comes over to watch them). Based on what I've seen, I want no part of cousins especially at the expected contract price. I feel the Jets best move is to try to trade up and select the highest rated QB on their board that is available.

Lets look at the Jets situation right now. 

Yes, Macc and Bowles just got a two year extension.  That extension is about as secure as the two year extension Rex got, and was fired the next year. The current regime needs to put something on the field next year, or they will be out of work.

Lets also look at who  you are encouraging the FO to sell the farm for.  This is going to be an extremely expensive trade up.  QB's are involved.  Throw your "draft value chart" away. It's going to be multiple first round picks + some to move up from 6 to even 2. 

Darnold, who was the draft guru pre-season darling after having a very good year in 16, and an excellent Bowl game which put him in the spotlight.  He has had a very meh year and looks like he is a project. Many people thought he was going to go back to school. 

Rosen has had surgery on his throwing shoulder, plus 2 concussions.  His last season he was better then Darnold, but was far from a "sure lock" franchise QB.  He looks like he might be spending a lot of time on IR.

Allen, who I thought was going to be the top QB in the class, is off a very weak season.  He looks like he and Hack might have a competition on who can hit the ocean from the end of the dock.

Mayfield is going to have a hard time making it to 6' at the combine.  He, like Rosen,  seems to have some maturity problems.  I like Mayfield, but Will be stunned if Macc takes him.  Just doesn't seem to be the kind of QB that would be at the top of his chart.

If they give away  a draft and a half for any of these guys, and march McCown out there again next season I expect to see a new regime in place the following year.

We already know that Bowles is going to push for a veteran.  I strongly expect "the plan" is to bring in a veteran QB, use the draft capital , and the cap money to get the Jets to the play-offs, and get Macc, and Bowles another extension.  

Cousins looks like the perfect fit for that role   

 

[Sonny Werblin]

28 minutes ago, flgreen said:

Lets look at the Jets situation right now. 

Yes, Macc and Bowles just got a two year extension.  That extension is about as secure as the two year extension Rex got, and was fired the next year. The current regime needs to put something on the field next year, or they will be out of work.

Lets also look at who  you are encouraging the FO to sell the farm for.  This is going to be an extremely expensive trade up.  QB's are involved.  Throw your "draft value chart" away. It's going to be multiple first round picks + some to move up from 6 to even 2. 

Darnold, who was the draft guru pre-season darling after having a very good year in 16, and an excellent Bowl game which put him in the spotlight.  He has had a very meh year and looks like he is a project. Many people thought he was going to go back to school. 

Rosen has had surgery on his throwing shoulder, plus 2 concussions.  His last season he was better then Darnold, but was far from a "sure lock" franchise QB.  He looks like he might be spending a lot of time on IR.

Allen, who I thought was going to be the top QB in the class, is off a very weak season.  He looks like he and Hack might have a competition on who can hit the ocean from the end of the dock.

Mayfield is going to have a hard time making it to 6' at the combine.  He, like Rosen,  seems to have some maturity problems.  I like Mayfield, but Will be stunned if Macc takes him.  Just doesn't seem to be the kind of QB that would be at the top of his chart.

If they give away  a draft and a half for any of these guys, and march McCown out there again next season I expect to see a new regime in place the following year.

We already know that Bowles is going to push for a veteran.  I strongly expect "the plan" is to bring in a veteran QB, use the draft capital , and the cap money to get the Jets to the play-offs, and get Macc, and Bowles another extension.  

Cousins looks like the perfect fit for that role   

 

I hope not. Hopefully, the plan is to win a SB and repeatedly be a SB contender. If that's not the plan, we need new people in charge of making the plan.

[flgreen]

4 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I hope not. Hopefully, the plan is to win a SB and repeatedly be a SB contender. If that's not the plan, we need new people in charge of making the plan.

No argument on that from me.  To late for that on this season, and draft though.

Nobody else will like this, but if I were the GM I'd sign Teddy Bridgewater in FA, and draft Mayfield.  Really have a hard time seeing the current FO/CS going in that direction.

[Lith]

Even if Cousins does hit FA, we are likely to have competition for his services.  He would be a huge upgrade for both of the teams that played today.

[bla bla bla]

8 minutes ago, Lith said:

Even if Cousins does hit FA, we are likely to have competition for his services.  He would be a huge upgrade for both of the teams that played today.

That's assuming the Skins don't Transition Tag him. If that's the case then his list of potential teams drastically slims down.

[Sonny Werblin]

5 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

If any of that was his fault I'm not writing the guy off after leading his team to the playoffs in his first season. You act like he has reached his ceiling at 29.

He turns 30 in August. Do most QBs get a lot better after the turn 30?  I'm sure many improve, but do they improve a lot? Or, is what they were at 29 pretty much it? This is a serious question. I have not looked into it. My gut says no, but I really do not know.

Regardless, my desire is to draft our own QB and have him.guide the team for 12 to 15 years.

[Sonny Werblin]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kirk-cousins-says-dan-snyder-and-the-redskins-are-all-in-on-re-signing-him/

[Pac]

3 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

He turns 30 in August. Do most QBs get a lot better after the turn 30?  I'm sure many improve, but do they improve a lot? Or, is what they were at 29 pretty much it? This is a serious question. I have not looked into it. My gut says no, but I really do not know.

Regardless, my desire is to draft our own Way and have him.guide the team for 12 to 15 years.

It's pretty common knowledge that QB's prime years are 30-35.  The game has sufficiently slowed down and there are less bone-headed decisions than in your 20's.  Unless you're Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[Jet_Engine1]

$30M Dollars per year, $50+M Guaranteed for 5 years. Thats what it will xost to sign Kirk Cousins.

 

Let that sink in.....

 

Is he worth that? Really? Hes Andy Dalton for Crissakes...

 

 

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, Sonny Werblin said:

He turns 30 in August. Do most QBs get a lot better after the turn 30?  I'm sure many improve, but do they improve a lot? Or, is what they were at 29 pretty much it? This is a serious question. I have not looked into it. My gut says no, but I really do not know.

Regardless, my desire is to draft our own Way and have him.guide the team for 12 to 15 years.

Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Big Ben, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Alex Smith and Carson Palmer all got better at age 30 and beyond but that is an odd question to ask because QBs that are not good usually don't make it to 30 (7-8 seasons with a team) Cousins is a very odd situation and is probably in its own category. What we have seen from good QBs is that their play does not drop off at age 30 so I think that means more than if he'll improve from where he's at statistically. I do think he can learn from mistakes like Peyton did when he was beat up and down by the Patriots or can get hot and win like Eli or Flacco, I think Cousins is more than capable of leading this team to a SB with his current play. Once in the playoffs luck does start to creep in since football is not a series like other sports.

[dcJet]

That article you posted is bad news.  I really want Cousins and a bpa draft.

[dcJet]

19 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

He turns 30 in August.

No Problem.  Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire didn't peak until they were 40. 

[bla bla bla]

16 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

$30M Dollars per year, $50+M Guaranteed for 5 years. Thats what it will xost to sign Kirk Cousins.

 

Let that sink in.....

 

Is he worth that? Really? Hes Andy Dalton for Crissakes...

 

 

I don't think it will cost $30m per year, I think it will be $28M per year with more guaranteed over 6 years. According to the Redskins forum I'm apart of he wants a team that committed to him more than he wants to break bank. He said as much on the radio show he interviewed with on Friday.

[Sonny Werblin]

20 minutes ago, Pac said:

It's pretty common knowledge that QB's prime years are 30-35.  The game has sufficiently slowed down and there are less bone-headed decisions than in your 20's.  Unless you're Ryan Fitzpatrick.

That wasn't the question. The question is whether there is any expectation that Cousins (age 29) will improve over the next few seasons. Or is a 29 year old QB pretty much a finished product.

[dcJet]

Alex Smith got way better.

[SenorGato]

11 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

That wasn't the question. The question is whether there is any expectation that Cousins (age 29) will improve over the next few seasons. Or is a 29 year old QB pretty much a finished product.

Getting 2015 or 2016 Cousins works too, but yeah I think his surface stats can get better. 

[Sonny Werblin]

1 minute ago, dcJet said:

Alex Smith got better.

Alex Smith got a better coach in Jim Harbaugh who recognized he needed a different QB if he wanted to win a SB.

Why do Jet fans want someone else's unwanted QB? I want my own QB. A guy who will be the QB for 12-15 years. 

Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, Drew Brees, Steve Young, and Peyton Manning -- These are all of the QB's who won 1 SB after having been the starting QB for a different team. Jim Plunkett won 2 SBs with the Raiders after having been the starting QB for the Patriots.

Dilfer, Williams, Johnson and Plunkett were picked up from the garbage heap.

Bress' and Manning's careers were thought to be over due to injuries and were not resigned (or cut) from their teams.

Steve Young was acquired for a second and fourth round draft choices - not a very hefty price.

So, we are still waiting for a healthy starting QB at, or near, his peak to switch teams and win a SB. It hasn't happened before and it's not going to happen with Cousins.

[SenorGato]

Today’s hilarious new knock on Cousins:

He’s healthy

?

If a 2nd and 4th was cheap for Young, what’s so crippling about Cousin’s contract with $80 million in cap space before cuts or the cap going up over the next 3 years?

[Sonny Werblin]

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

Today’s hilarious new knock on Cousins:

He’s healthy

?

If a 2nd and 4th was cheap for Young, what’s so crippling about Cousin’s contract with $80 million in cap space before cuts or the cap going up over the next 3 years?

How was that a knock? If cousins is such a wonderful option, list the teams that you believe would exchange their current QB situation for him.

[SenorGato]

4 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How was that a knock? If cousins is such a wonderful option, list the teams that you believe would exchange their current QB situation for him.

For sure:

Jets

Broncos

Browns

Bills

Dolphins

Bengals

Jaguars

Chiefs

Bears

Vikings

Cardinals

Bears

Would if they could:

Giants

Steelers - Mostly because Roethlisberger is permanently concussed and should retire 

Titans

Bucs

If Brady were to suddenly retire throw the Pats on there. 

What about my question?!

[adb280z]

8 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How was that a knock? If cousins is such a wonderful option, list the teams that you believe would exchange their current QB situation for him.

Mia

Buf 

NYJ

CLE

Cin

JAX

KC

DEN

NYG

Minn

ARI

[detectivekimble]

8 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How was that a knock? If cousins is such a wonderful option, list the teams that you believe would exchange their current QB situation for him.

Shannon Sharpe asked the question which teams would be worse if Kirk Cousins was their QB.  He came up with four: The Patriots, Packers, Steelers, and Saints.  That sounds about right.

Kirk Cousins is a damn good QB.  He was never given anything.  Everyone bent over backwards for RGIII.  Kirk Cousins earned everything.  He's been disrespected in Washington like Drew Brees was disrespected in San Diego.

[detectivekimble]

1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

For sure:

Jets

Broncos

Browns

Bills

Dolphins

Bengald

Jaguars

Chiefs

Bears

Vikings

Cardinals

Cowboys

Bears

Would if they could:

Giants

Steelers - Mostly because Roethlisberger is permanently concussed and should retire 

Titans

Bucs

If Brady were to suddenly retire throw the Pats on there. 

What about my question?!

That's not even the right question to ask.  The better question is how many teams would be worse if Cousins was their QB?  It's not more than a handful.

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, detectivekimble said:

Shannon Sharpe asked the question which teams would be worse if Kirk Cousins was their QB.  He came up with four: The Patriots, Packers, Steelers, and Saints.  That sounds about right.

Kirk Cousins is a damn good QB.  He was never given anything.  Everyone bent over backwards for RGIII.  Kirk Cousins earned everything.  He's been disrespected in Washington like Drew Brees was disrespected in San Diego.

The bold is is one of those intangible/makeup/ character things that will separate him from the weak sauce competition. 

[Pac]

15 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

That wasn't the question. The question is whether there is any expectation that Cousins (age 29) will improve over the next few seasons. Or is a 29 year old QB pretty much a finished product.

I answered the question.  If I think a QB's prime is 30 to 35 and Kirk Cousins is 29 then yes.  He can improve. 

That being said I believe a current level of Cousins surrounded by a good group of skill players and a top 10 D is enough to win a SB.

[Sully80]

1 hour ago, detectivekimble said:

That's not even the right question to ask.  The better question is how many teams would be worse if Cousins was their QB?  It's not more than a handful.

I’m not sure that’s a super compelling argument, above you leave out numerous teams that are probably worse with Cousins, Falcons, Seahawks, Eagles with a healthy Wentz, Chargers, etc. Also a lot of times when weighing QB situations with this philosophy you find yourself saying well the disparity between cousins and this QB isn’t too great so they probably wouldn’t be so much worse with cousins at QB so that’s why you only end up with maybe 8-10 teams total. I think Cousins is a ton better than what we’ve had over the past 20 years but I’m not sure if he’s worth the financial strain of an elite QB (23 mil +) because he’s just pretty good, he doesn’t make you worse and in more than a handful of situations doesn’t make you better.