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Freemanm

We don't need to trade up

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If anything, we should trade down if the Giants take a QB in the first round, because then the Broncos will snag Mayfield. The only one left is Josh Allen, who is predicted to go late in the first round, at best, so the Jets can trade down, get perhaps another first round pick and an additional second rounder for the #6 pick, and still get Josh Allen. The Giants, however, are the wildcard in all this. It's kind of iffy if they take a QB, since Eli Manning still has at least two quality seasons left in him.

Either way, we're in good shape. I think we're going to get Mayfield and really build with two second round picks (hopefully the second round curse has been lifted). The Jets can shore up their O-Line and get a quality running back or edge rusher in that round. 

 

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1 hour ago, Freemanm said:

If anything, we should trade down if the Giants take a QB in the first round, because then the Broncos will snag Mayfield. The only one left is Josh Allen, who is predicted to go late in the first round, at best, so the Jets can trade down, get perhaps another first round pick and an additional second rounder for the #6 pick, and still get Josh Allen. The Giants, however, are the wildcard in all this. It's kind of iffy if they take a QB, since Eli Manning still has at least two quality seasons left in him.

Either way, we're in good shape. I think we're going to get Mayfield and really build with two second round picks (hopefully the second round curse has been lifted). The Jets can shore up their O-Line and get a quality running back or edge rusher in that round. 

 

Josh Allen will be a top 10 pick after the senior bowl and combine.....

Definitely would love Mayfield at 6 over Allen for sure but if we can trade up and somehow get Rosen... Sign me up!!

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2 hours ago, lounap23 said:

Josh Allen will be a top 10 pick after the senior bowl and combine.....

Definitely would love Mayfield at 6 over Allen for sure but if we can trade up and somehow get Rosen... Sign me up!!

I would respectfully disagree about Josh Allen - too many concerns about his accuracy. I think he's top 20. That's not to say he won't be a good NFL QB. Honestly, it wouldn't shock me to see the Giants trade down if they decide to keep Eli Manning for the next three to four seasons and make a short term run at another Super Bowl. In that case, they'd probably trade with a QB hungry team and give us less of a shot at Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold. As I said, the Giants are the true wildcard in this. 

Stay at #6 and grab Josh Allen if necessary. There's a good chance Mayfield drops down that far. 

Of course, the most ideal situation is to sign Cousins and keep what we have.

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21 hours ago, Freemanm said:

If anything, we should trade down if the Giants take a QB in the first round, because then the Broncos will snag Mayfield. The only one left is Josh Allen, who is predicted to go late in the first round, at best, so the Jets can trade down, get perhaps another first round pick and an additional second rounder for the #6 pick, and still get Josh Allen. The Giants, however, are the wildcard in all this. It's kind of iffy if they take a QB, since Eli Manning still has at least two quality seasons left in him.

Either way, we're in good shape. I think we're going to get Mayfield and really build with two second round picks (hopefully the second round curse has been lifted). The Jets can shore up their O-Line and get a quality running back or edge rusher in that round. 

 

The Giants are NOT the Jets. They are not stupid. Eli has a couple years left. That gives them time to groom Rosen or Darnold just like the did when they had Warner and drafted Eli. That’s how it’s done. If you have the luxury to let a rook sit for a year or two, then you do it. If you’re desperate like the Cowboys and Texans were, then you throw the rook out there. In our case, we are desperate. Let’s not play like we’re fooling anyone here. Draft a QB and play him immediately. 

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In the OP scenario, I would take Lamar Jackson at #6 without hesitation. I rank the QB's in tiers.

Tier I: Rosen and Darnold  -- very low bust potential and high probability that you've found your franchise QB;

Tier II: Mayfield and Jackson  -- very good chance you've found your franchise QB but their strengths come with legit questions. Their ceiling is HOF, their floor is average to below average NFL QB ;

Tier III: Allen -- scary risk in that he performed so, so badly this past season. If he busts, everyone will say "I told you so". That alone puts him behind the other 4 QBs, but he is in a class of his own because if all goes right for him, he could be an all-pro. 

Tier IV: Rudolph and Falk -- If put in the right system and not relied upon as "the guy", could be long term starters for winning teams. If not, they could be out of the league or relegated to permanent back-up status by their 4th season. 

IMO the guys in Tier I thought III warrant consideration by the Jets at #6. The depth of the QB draft may actually push Rudolph and Falk into the second round, but they have enough talent and potential that they should be seriously considered by any QB needy team in the latter half of round 1. Seriously, Falk and Rudolph have better pro potential than other QB's who have been taken at the top of the in the first round in the recent past i.e. Mark Sanchez and Ryan Tannehill

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This is shaping up to be a very interesting draft.  Is it plausible that 4 QBs will go in the Top 5 selections?  If so and if the Jets can't or don't want to trade up, that leaves either the best Offensive Lineman (whoever that turns out to be), the best RB (Barkley) or the best Edge Rusher (Chubb) dropping to us.

 

But, you know, right now, I doubt 4 QBs go in the Top 5...it's possible, I guess

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11 minutes ago, Sarge4Tide said:

This is shaping up to be a very interesting draft.  Is it plausible that 4 QBs will go in the Top 5 selections?  If so and if the Jets can't or don't want to trade up, that leaves either the best Offensive Lineman (whoever that turns out to be), the best RB (Barkley) or the best Edge Rusher (Chubb) dropping to us.

 

But, you know, right now, I doubt 4 QBs go in the Top 5...it's possible, I guess

Barkley and Chubb will be the 3rd and 4th picks

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Allen is absolutely going Top 10. Probably even Top 6 when all is said and done. That kids measurables are batsh*t insane.

6’5 250, one of the strongest arms in recent memory, freakish Cam Newton-esque athleticism for a big guy, is known as a grinder who loves football, etc.

If you take Allen and he pans out, then you have the next Big Ben on your hands for the next 10+ years.

Sure his accuracy problems scare me, but you also have to factor in the sh*t OL he was playing behind coupled with zero playmakers in the passing game.

What I don’t understand is the people who are gaga for Mayfield but want absolutely nothing to do with Alllen.

Sure, Allen is a risk...and you’re telling me that an overly emotional 5’11 200lb QB with sloppy footwork and zero experience in a pro-style offense isn’t?

If Allen reaches his full potential, he’s an Elway/Roethlisberger level talent.

If Mayfield reaches his full potential, he’s a poor mans Drew Brees.

Which would you rather gamble on?

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If rosen and darnold go 1 -2 then forget about trading up and take the guy you like best at 6.  If either one of them slips out of the top 2 sell the farm to trade up to get the one that has fallen to 3.

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When drafting in this vicinity (which we seem to do often) I find myself imagining the worst case scenario.  Which five players, if taken before our pick, leave us with the worst options.  

I think this year it would be Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Chubb, Barkley.  I could be happy with any of those guys although i really would prefer an offensive player.  So if those five went, who does that leave?

  • Allen and Jackson at QB - neither of whom I rate as highly as the other three so it would be a little disappointing
  • Key, Fitzpatrick and a few other defensive players, none of whom I would be excited about because I think we NEED to go Offense
  • Williams, McGlinchey and Brown at OT - all of them would be nice pieces but at that point, if you can't clearly pick which is the best, I think trading down makes sense
  • Quentin Nelson at G - don't even go there.  Unless he is literally the love-child of Larry Allen and John Hannah, I just don't want yet another non-premium pick this high.

So in this scenario, unless you absolutely love Allen or Jackson, I think trading down a few slots is okay if you get great value, then take one of the Tackles in the 10-15 range.  With the extra pick or picks, you can certainly fill in some more needs or possibly move up from one of the second rounders into the bottom of the first to grab someone who drops like we see happen every year.

 

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On 1/10/2018 at 7:07 AM, Freemanm said:

If anything, we should trade down if the Giants take a QB in the first round, because then the Broncos will snag Mayfield. 

Posts "we don't need to trade up" and proceeds to explain why we need to trade up.

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 9:18 AM, Beerfish said:

If rosen and darnold go 1 -2 then forget about trading up and take the guy you like best at 6.  If either one of them slips out of the top 2 sell the farm to trade up to get the one that has fallen to 3.

So if 2 of the 3 QBs go 1-2, you're saying DON'T trade up for the 3rd?

Not buying that logic.

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On 1/11/2018 at 9:06 AM, Untouchable said:

Allen is absolutely going Top 10. Probably even Top 6 when all is said and done. That kids measurables are batsh*t insane.

6’5 250, one of the strongest arms in recent memory, freakish Cam Newton-esque athleticism for a big guy, is known as a grinder who loves football, etc.

If you take Allen and he pans out, then you have the next Big Ben on your hands for the next 10+ years.

Sure his accuracy problems scare me, but you also have to factor in the sh*t OL he was playing behind coupled with zero playmakers in the passing game.

What I don’t understand is the people who are gaga for Mayfield but want absolutely nothing to do with Alllen.

Sure, Allen is a risk...and you’re telling me that an overly emotional 5’11 200lb QB with sloppy footwork and zero experience in a pro-style offense isn’t?

If Allen reaches his full potential, he’s an Elway/Roethlisberger level talent.

If Mayfield reaches his full potential, he’s a poor mans Drew Brees.

Which would you rather gamble on?

sigh. Paxton Lynch says Hi. Jake Locker says hi. Bortles says hi. +100

I'm actually surprised you of all people have talked yourself into such one-sided logic. There's just as much, if not more, to be concerned as there is to be excited about. 

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 9:06 AM, Untouchable said:

If Allen reaches his full potential, he’s an Elway/Roethlisberger level talent.

If Mayfield reaches his full potential, he’s a poor mans Drew Brees.

Which would you rather gamble on?

Actually this statement doesn't make sense. So the best version of Josh Allen, isn't Tannehill, or Jake Plummer or something inconsistent funhouse, it's the best all time QBs... OK... *eye roll*. but the best version of Mayfield is doug flutie? lol wtf brah. You got carried away on that post. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 7:58 AM, BigO said:

The Giants are NOT the Jets. They are not stupid. Eli has a couple years left. That gives them time to groom Rosen or Darnold just like the did when they had Warner and drafted Eli. That’s how it’s done. If you have the luxury to let a rook sit for a year or two, then you do it. If you’re desperate like the Cowboys and Texans were, then you throw the rook out there. In our case, we are desperate. Let’s not play like we’re fooling anyone here. Draft a QB and play him immediately. 

The Giants groomed Eli behind Warner for something like 8 weeks and he was horrible.  I mean he bad last year and still light years better than he was as a rookie.  Sub 50%, 6:9 TD:INT and 1-6 as a rookie.  I don't think it make sense to draft a guy #2 planning to sit him for half his rookie deal. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 7:58 AM, BigO said:

The Giants are NOT the Jets. They are not stupid. Eli has a couple years left. That gives them time to groom Rosen or Darnold just like the did when they had Warner and drafted Eli. That’s how it’s done. If you have the luxury to let a rook sit for a year or two, then you do it. If you’re desperate like the Cowboys and Texans were, then you throw the rook out there. In our case, we are desperate. Let’s not play like we’re fooling anyone here. Draft a QB and play him immediately. 

You're not going to sit a #2 overall QB pick for two to three seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants trade down and wait until Eli has totally burned out before going after another franchise QB

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15 minutes ago, Freemanm said:

You're not going to sit a #2 overall QB pick for two to three seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants trade down and wait until Eli has totally burned out before going after another franchise QB

As I said, if you have the luxury to let a rook sit and learn, then you do it. Rodgers sat behind Farve, Young behind Montana, in our case, if we draft a top QB prospect, I throw him into the fire. It’s about rebuilding and developing the young corp.

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20 hours ago, nycdan said:

When drafting in this vicinity (which we seem to do often) I find myself imagining the worst case scenario.  Which five players, if taken before our pick, leave us with the worst options.  

I think this year it would be Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Chubb, Barkley.  I could be happy with any of those guys although i really would prefer an offensive player.  So if those five went, who does that leave?

  • Allen and Jackson at QB - neither of whom I rate as highly as the other three so it would be a little disappointing
  • Key, Fitzpatrick and a few other defensive players, none of whom I would be excited about because I think we NEED to go Offense
  • Williams, McGlinchey and Brown at OT - all of them would be nice pieces but at that point, if you can't clearly pick which is the best, I think trading down makes sense
  • Quentin Nelson at G - don't even go there.  Unless he is literally the love-child of Larry Allen and John Hannah, I just don't want yet another non-premium pick this high.

So in this scenario, unless you absolutely love Allen or Jackson, I think trading down a few slots is okay if you get great value, then take one of the Tackles in the 10-15 range.  With the extra pick or picks, you can certainly fill in some more needs or possibly move up from one of the second rounders into the bottom of the first to grab someone who drops like we see happen every year.

 

They need to get a QB. At 6 trading down to 3 with the Colts is doable and should lent cost a kings ransom. Take your pick of Allen, Mayfield or Jackson. That way Mac’s not sitting there at 6 with coffee cup in hand shaking his head after all his choices at QB are smiling with other teams caps on.  Mac can’t keep procrastinating the inevitable. In 2018, with all the FA’s, they will be better and will not have the luxury of drafting so high in 2019.  We have a patty cake schedule and don’t travel west of Wisconsin. They should easily go 8-8 if not better if the pieces fit right. But that’s irrelevant because what’s critical at this juncture is finding the QB to build around. 

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The Giants are tough to call.  Many are convinced they will draft a QB because they are in a good position to do so, but there are a few factors that could nudge them in a different direction.

First and foremost, Eli is still a viable starting QB next season and possibly 1-2 beyond that. They do have a guy in Webb that they drafted a year ago that they haven't seen much of yet behind him.  Having an young unknown at backup QB (them) is very different from having a certain dumpster fire (us).  And with a new GM, we can't really predict his agenda.

Second and equally important, they have tremendous needs in other positions - including but not limited to OL, RB, LB, TE.  They do not have a lot of cap space ($20-30MM I think) to address those so they would benefit from more picks.

As a Jets fan, it's easy to want them to not draft a QB, but trying to look at it objectively, if they want to return to competitiveness in a very weak NFCE (although a lot depends on how Wentz comes back from injury), they could get there next season by going after their immediate needs.  They could go Barkley at 2 but I think another option is to go OT in the first round, which means they could very easily trade down a few slots and still grab one of Brown, McGlinchey or Williams anywhere in the top 8-10 positions, maybe even a bit lower.  I don't see the value for them at LB in the first, but with extra picks, they could address that in the 2nd easily.

Depending on who they like among the OTs and how much, the obvious play has them trading down to 5 (DEN) or 6 (NYJ) to pick up a 2018 2nd rounder plus a little more (2019 2nd or 2018 3rd perhaps).  Another team in the top-10 might fall in love with Barkley or Chubb but I think that's really a QB slot for trading up.  MIA (11), CIN (12), ARI (15) or BUF (21,22) could also potentially offer a massive bonanza which would still net them one of the top OTs and a slew of other picks this year and next.  

I have to think moving down to 5 or 6 is a consideration for Gettleman.  The question is, would Macc be willing to spend the picks to get one of the top-2 guys? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

The Giants are tough to call.  Many are convinced they will draft a QB because they are in a good position to do so, but there are a few factors that could nudge them in a different direction.

First and foremost, Eli is still a viable starting QB next season and possibly 1-2 beyond that. They do have a guy in Webb that they drafted a year ago that they haven't seen much of yet behind him.  Having an young unknown at backup QB (them) is very different from having a certain dumpster fire (us).  And with a new GM, we can't really predict his agenda.

Second and equally important, they have tremendous needs in other positions - including but not limited to OL, RB, LB, TE.  They do not have a lot of cap space ($20-30MM I think) to address those so they would benefit from more picks.

As a Jets fan, it's easy to want them to not draft a QB, but trying to look at it objectively, if they want to return to competitiveness in a very weak NFCE (although a lot depends on how Wentz comes back from injury), they could get there next season by going after their immediate needs.  They could go Barkley at 2 but I think another option is to go OT in the first round, which means they could very easily trade down a few slots and still grab one of Brown, McGlinchey or Williams anywhere in the top 8-10 positions, maybe even a bit lower.  I don't see the value for them at LB in the first, but with extra picks, they could address that in the 2nd easily.

Depending on who they like among the OTs and how much, the obvious play has them trading down to 5 (DEN) or 6 (NYJ) to pick up a 2018 2nd rounder plus a little more (2019 2nd or 2018 3rd perhaps).  Another team in the top-10 might fall in love with Barkley or Chubb but I think that's really a QB slot for trading up.  MIA (11), CIN (12), ARI (15) or BUF (21,22) could also potentially offer a massive bonanza which would still net them one of the top OTs and a slew of other picks this year and next.  

I have to think moving down to 5 or 6 is a consideration for Gettleman.  The question is, would Macc be willing to spend the picks to get one of the top-2 guys? 

I wouldn't call TE a need for the Giants after taking one in the first last year but I agree that team needs a lot of help. It's hard not to pull the trigger on the QB if he is sitting there but I can see a situation where the Giants are not 100% sold on Rosen and would rather trade down. I think Rosen is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way and I'd be nervous to trade up for him.

once we know where Cousins/Smith go that should very clearly sort out the top 6 picks.

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16 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I wouldn't call TE a need for the Giants after taking one in the first last year but I agree that team needs a lot of help. It's hard not to pull the trigger on the QB if he is sitting there but I can see a situation where the Giants are not 100% sold on Rosen and would rather trade down. I think Rosen is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way and I'd be nervous to trade up for him.

once we know where Cousins/Smith go that should very clearly sort out the top 6 picks.

Damn, you are right about Engram.  Forgot about him.  

Agreed on Cousins and Smith (and whoever leaves MIN possibly).  There are about 8 or 9 teams that could realistically look to draft a QB on Day 1 or 2 minus the one or two that sign those guys.  There are legitimately 8 or 9 guys potentially worth a pick in the first 3 rounds so it's an interesting alignment of supply and demand.

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On 1/12/2018 at 10:34 PM, BigO said:

As I said, if you have the luxury to let a rook sit and learn, then you do it. Rodgers sat behind Farve, Young behind Montana, in our case, if we draft a top QB prospect, I throw him into the fire. It’s about rebuilding and developing the young corp.

It is not a luxury, it is a waste of a resource.  A starting QB used to cost $5M per.  Now they cost $25-30M.  It is, quite literally, another world from when guys like Rodgers, Young, Hasselbeck were sitting. The cap went up, but it didn't go up that much.

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

It is not a luxury, it is a waste of a resource.  A starting QB used to cost $5M per.  Now they cost $25-30M.  It is, quite literally, another world from when guys like Rodgers, Young, Hasselbeck were sitting. The cap went up, but it didn't go up that much.

Good point. But if you’re stuck with a QB that makes big bucks you might as well use him as a mentor. Not sure what Eli’s contract is but your point is well taken. 

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:32 AM, BigO said:

Good point. But if you’re stuck with a QB that makes big bucks you might as well use him as a mentor. Not sure what Eli’s contract is but your point is well taken. 

The funny thing about that is you would think Brett Favre would have been just about the worst possible mentor for a young QB.  And then you look at Aaron Rodgers and just scratch your head.

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