400 touches?

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You touted his yds per touch, to use as comparison to others’ yds per carry (the only way it compares favorably). That’s pretty ridiculous, unless you’re going to do the same for every other great back whose tier you think he’s on. 

Feel free to add in their recieving contributions. Outside of Tomlinson and Forte, the guys with the best seasons after age 29 in this look, you’re not adding much for any of them. So let’s run through this Spermy logic:

- RBs have a short life because running the ball is extremely taxing

- Running the ball is less valuable because it’s a passing league

- Those RBs put up 1600+ at 5 a pop taking on 300+ carries a season. 

- Bell puts up 1600 at 5 a touch. This includes two years with 1900+ YFS and ~2200 YFS.

- Roughly 60 touches and 550 yards a year from Bell do not count because science. In this case for convenience’s sake the passing game has no value. That elimination brings him to about 245 touches a year but also for convenience sake ignore that. 

- Despite that putting him more than two years off from 1800, his decline is even more imminent! Why? Why because 1/3 of those 1600 yards a year come from the air and don’t count! Rushing the ball is still less valuable than than passing it, but his passing yards don’t count! Also he will age faster than a 300+ carry back still anyway! 

Convenient thinking as usual from ole Sperm. Talk about twisting ourselves into pretzels!

Anyway if your new angle will be that he’s close to 1800 with the catches - there’s no look at 1800 touches, just 1800 carries. Probably because Bell’s extemely rare skillset and extremely rare production make him such an extremely rare RB no one would think to look at touches. 

[Maxman]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:47 AM, Jetster said:

Steelers making sure they get their moneys worth with Bell on the franchise tag. 

When I saw the title I thought this was the name of @T0mShane's new Friday night webcam show.

[Lupz27]

53 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Never. Let’s see him have a single season with 1600+ rushing yards, 12+ rushing TDs, and 5.3ypc before predicting multiple such seasons, and thereby comparing him with some of the most dangerous RBs ever. Not to mention the cushy team situation he’s always been in with a dangerous passing attack keeping the defense honest. 

So Thurman Thomas didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  LT didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  Emmitt Smith didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  E James didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  Marshall Faulk didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?

[Jetster]

6 hours ago, Maxman said:

When I saw the title I thought this was the name of @T0mShane's new Friday night webcam show.

I heard it's creepy. Gastineau & Bridget Neilson masks are involved.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Dude he is hands down the best RB in the NFL period stop!

If you say so it must be true. #science

Even though others had better seasons than he did, for teams with worse QBs and receiving options that kept opposing safeties deep. Totally.

If he was truly that, you'd have already seen Pittsburgh extend him when it was cheaper and when he was a year younger. If he's not tagged again you'd see no less than 8 teams bidding for him and he'd cap out in the $17m+ range if he was so far and away the best back in the league.

The best RB in the league who's never scored 10 rushing TDs in a season, who's never reached 1500 rushing yds, who's never hit an elite-level ypc, despite all the advantages he's had. OK. 

Maybe he's just an excellent RB in one of the most favorable situations in football.

[Lupz27]

29 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If you say so it must be true. #science

Even though others had better seasons than he did, for teams with worse QBs and receiving options that kept opposing safeties deep. Totally.

If he was truly that, you'd have already seen Pittsburgh extend him when it was cheaper and when he was a year younger. If he's not tagged again you'd see no less than 8 teams bidding for him and he'd cap out in the $17m+ range if he was so far and away the best back in the league.

The best RB in the league who's never scored 10 rushing TDs in a season, who's never reached 1500 rushing yds, who's never hit an elite-level ypc, despite all the advantages he's had. OK. 

Maybe he's just an excellent RB in one of the most favorable situations in football.

Again conveniently leaving out his receiving abilities, and statistics, I don’t care how you get the yards at ANY position, but when you have 2000 yards from scrimmage in 15 games #2 in all of the NFL yeah I’m paying that dude, you can continue to hide behind your repeated rushing yards only agenda, but it’s really sad man.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

So Thurman Thomas didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  LT didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  Emmitt Smith didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  E James didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?  Marshall Faulk didn’t benefit from a dangerous passing attack?

Lol are you trying to help my argument? It sure seems so.

Thurman did benefit from a strong Buffalo team, but for all Kelly's greatness that Buffalo passing attack was not on the same level as the Roethlisberger Steelers. Also TT was one of the reasons Buffalo's offense was so dangerous (until the SB, lol). Conversely, Pittsburgh had a more dangerous passing attack than Buffalo's since well before Bell got there. TT/Kelly played in a very different era, and Kelly never once reached 4000 yds and only once threw more than 25 passing TDs (never mind averaging those numbers per 16 games, even including Roethlisberger's first couple seasons). Apples and oranges. When TT was putting up 4.8-4.9 ypc, and leading the NFL in yds from scrimmage for 4 straight seasons, there were only maybe a half dozen averaging over 4.0. During Bell's career, there are typically a dozen or two.

Emmitt showed his value when he held out and, for all the talk about how easy it was to gain yardage for them, Dallas could barely run the ball without him. They certainly didn't get pro bowl stats out of a 32 year-old RB well past his playing prime like the Steelers. And no, Dallas didn't have anywhere near the passing attack of recent Steelers teams. For games at a time it often seemed like all they did was hand off to Smith. Aikman averaged comfortably under 3000 yds/season for his career, only threw 20 TDs in a season once, and for all his fame he never once reached 3500 passing yds. Just totally different.

LT still holds the NFL record for rushing TDs in a season (28) and rushing/receiving TDs in a season (31). Wholly unlike Pittsburgh, San Diego sucked when LT was drafted. He also missed exactly 1 game in his first 8 seasons, comfortably eclipsing 5 ypc a couple of times, 10+ rushing TDs every single year with SD without one exception, and 1400+ rushing yards 4 times. For all the advantages he walked into starting with his rookie season, Bell has never done any of those things once.

Like LT, Faulk was also impossibly special. Take him off that Rams team and tell me Warner still rips the league a new one in his first real NFL action. Faulk was easily the biggest addition to that team that turned them around from the year before. Warner was freaking awesome, but the fact is their passing game was also deadly when Trent Green filled in for Warner. If you think they're nearly as good without Faulk, you'd probably be the only person who believes it.

Meanwhile Roethlisberger was a star and probably a HOF QB even if they never draft Bell in the first place. They won 2 SBs without him and none with him. On offense, they sit on leads less and run up the score more in recent seasons because their defense wasn't nearly as stingy as it used to be in years past.

In other words, what on earth are you talking about?

[Jetster]

3 hours ago, Jetster said:

I heard it's creepy. Gastineau & Bridget Neilson masks are involved.

And I'm talking old Gastineau & old Neilson masks.

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Again conveniently leaving out his receiving abilities, and statistics, I don’t care how you get the yards at ANY position, but when you have 2000 yards from scrimmage in 15 games #2 in all of the NFL yeah I’m paying that dude, you can continue to hide behind your repeated rushing yards only agenda, but it’s really sad man.

I'm not "conveniently" doing anything. Convenient was Gato using his receiving numbers and mushing them into yards per touch, but only for Bell and not for anyone else. Meanwhile there are still backs that average more yds/carry than Bell did yds/touch including his receiving numbers this season.

He's a terrific back. He's not a rare back, though, and isn't in the same league as most of the RBs you mention. I think probably Thurman, but it's always hard to do such a comparison when they're close and they come from 2 different eras.

The best RB in the NFL "by far" would be a threat to score from anywhere on the field. Bell simply isn't and hasn't been. Plus he's too injury/suspension prone to tie up those kinds of resources for 2 seasons. Especially for a team that still has so many holes on it.

Spend crazy money? Fine. I'm sympathetic to the idea of signing Cousins because Macc is an incompetent and it's probably the only way we get a starting QB who isn't either a bust or someone else's garbage. Bell? A team is better off spending that on the OL and then they don't have to cross their fingers that their injury-prone RB doesn't get injured. 

[Scott Dierking]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm not "conveniently" doing anything. Convenient was Gato using his receiving numbers and mushing them into yards per touch, but only for Bell and not for anyone else. Meanwhile there are still backs that average more yds/carry than Bell did yds/touch including his receiving numbers this season.

He's a terrific back. He's not a rare back, though, and isn't in the same league as most of the RBs you mention. I think probably Thurman, but it's always hard to do such a comparison when they're close and they come from 2 different eras.

The best RB in the NFL "by far" would be a threat to score from anywhere on the field. Bell simply isn't and hasn't been. Plus he's too injury/suspension prone to tie up those kinds of resources for 2 seasons. Especially for a team that still has so many holes on it.

Spend crazy money? Fine. I'm sympathetic to the idea of signing Cousins because Macc is an incompetent and it's probably the only way we get a starting QB who isn't either a bust or someone else's garbage. Bell? A team is better off spending that on the OL and then they don't have to cross their fingers that their injury-prone RB doesn't get injured. 

This discussion has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime with the pro Bell commentaries. Such spinning, Barry Sanders could not even do. 

Very, very good back. But folks, let's not make things up or twist truths in order to further a debate. it is so transparent and looks plain dumb.

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If you say so it must be true. #science.

Well also real analysts, but that’s never gotten in the way of your agendas Spermy. You still ******* that chicken as far as ignoring the passing game or is your new argument going to be that since he’s played with the concussed corpse of Roethsliberger secretly none (as opposed to just the passing yards like before) of his performance really counts? 

Never change, Spermy! 

[SenorGato]

26 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

 But folks, let's not make things up or twist truths in order to further a debate. it is so transparent and looks plain dumb.

Liiterally your whole argument depends on making stuff up, twisting truths, and ignoring information. 

It *is* painfully transparent and dumb but you and Sperm have used similar tactics for years so we’re all used to it by now. 

Can’t say I’m surprised both of your charlatans won’t respond to me, I get it. No issues with that, only makes it easier to call bullsh*t when needed. 

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm not "conveniently" doing anything. 

It’s the internet and all but I have never met someone so casually willing to blatantly lie so often. Anytime you’re cornered you go to lying these days because you can get away with it and know you can. You blatantly ignored on average 60 catches at 550 a year because it was convenient to pretend it doesn’t exist or count. I included them because they do exist and count and all serious looks at Bell, here and outside, include his passing game results.

It’s cool THO! Bell’s a rare back with a rare skillset and rare production. All serious analysts acknowledge it because it’s part of reality and reality is kind of a big deal. Many of those analysts outright acknowledge him as the best in foozeball today due to the rarity of his skillset, skills, and production. 

[32EBoozer]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:46 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

OK I admit it. I read this a couple of times and still don’t get it.

[Sperm Edwards]

21 hours ago, SenorGato said:

It’s the internet and all but I have never met someone so casually willing to blatantly lie so often. Anytime you’re cornered you go to lying these days because you can get away with it and know you can. You blatantly ignored on average 60 catches at 550 a year because it was convenient to pretend it doesn’t exist or count. I included them because they do exist and count and all serious looks at Bell, here and outside, include his passing game results.

It’s cool THO! Bell’s a rare back with a rare skillset and rare production. All serious analysts acknowledge it because it’s part of reality and reality is kind of a big deal. Many of those analysts outright acknowledge him as the best in foozeball today due to the rarity of his skillset, skills, and production. 

You must mean in comparison to your blatant honesty of comparing a 24 year-old Bell to a 33 year-old backup RB in his final NFL season lol. Or the inference that all his yards would have been left on the field if they employed a 3rd down back or split those duties. 

Tell you what, you show me an official stats outlet that touts yards per touch for just one player while ignoring this "stat" for all others as you "honestly" did in this thread. I'm not surprised you did, since it'd still be lower than a number of others' rushing ypc alone, while other RBs like Sproles have literally double his yards per touch. Well not all serious analyst outlets. Good back that he is, there were certainly players above his DYAR this year from (some significantly above Bell's), his 11th-ranked DVOA, his 11th-ranked "success" rate. I guess they're liars also.

But hey, they're not serious analysts like ESPN/OTA-network/NFL.com TV commentators, who regularly say things in games like there was nowhere for a QB to throw the ball as the producer airs replays of his receivers running wide open hahaha.

He is not rare, and best back in the league is a subjective opinion of some (but not all, and certainly well far from being objective fact).

What Bell is: an excellent back who's been one of the best in the league, but who's also been injury-prone, who's got a lot of hits under his belt already, who's a next strike away from missing half a season, who just had his most touches ever so it's unknown how his body will respond (last time he had around this number his season ended in game 6), and who's played his career in an ideal-enough situation that a 32 year-old has-been backup RB could also have his best season in half a decade.

It's been a "rare" marriage between one of the best RBs in the game also being in one of the best situations for any RB in the game, hence the numbers he certainly wouldn't reproduce on most other teams (never mind on the Jets). 

[SenorGato]

 

Quote

You must mean in comparison to your blatant honesty of comparing a 24 year-old Bell to a 33 year-old backup RB in his final NFL season lol.

 

@SpermEdwards Rotfl you’re the one who brought Williams into the discussion! Jeebus with this guy...

Did you enjoy that rare performance from the best RB in the league yesterday? Don’t see a performance or skillset like that on a RB everyday because it’s so rare. I know what you’re thinking THO - he only ran for 67 yards! There there Sperm....

 

 

[SenorGato]

Quote

Well not all serious analyst outlets. Good back that he is, there were certainly players above his DYAR this year from (some significantly above Bell's), his 11th-ranked DVOA, his 11th-ranked "success" rate. I guess they're liars also.

You understand that FO considers Bell the best back in the NFL, right? I mean you’re knocking the guy for his historical relevance while looking at two numbers from one year. 

Since 2014 per FO he is the only back in the league to, year in year out, to be both a top 5 rusher and top 10 reciever at RB (including 1 and 2 in ‘14 and ‘16) via FO. sh*t he’s so good that even when he wasn’t compiling (‘15 to injury) FO graded him a top 5 pure rusher. His total EYds by year, essentially his total production outside of TDs, put him at 2 in ‘17 behind Gurley, 2 in ‘16 behind Johnson, 1 in ‘14 just over Murray - notice how all the names change as Bell stays constant. 

Anyway, since you’re a big FO guy now maybe you’ll acknowledge the 2017 article they wrote on Bell I posted earlier. It was most convenient to ignore so you did, figure I’ll go again since now they’re worthy of your citation. They even use yards per touch(holy pretzel twist, Batman!!!), which you were just whining about being illegal or mean or dishonest or whatever:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2017/film-room-leveon-bell

 

Quote

Bell isn't Jamaal Charles. He won't regularly run away from everyone on the field to the point that he looks like Usain Bolt racing a bunch of toddlers. He is now capable of accelerating away from defenders and he doesn't get caught from behind if given a head start. His added athleticism has made him more capable of creating big plays by eluding defenders in space or accelerating past them in tight situations. Those facets of his play have pushed him to an MVP standard of play this year.

Playing in just 12 regular season contests because of a three-game suspension and sitting out one week to rest, Bell accumulated 1,884 total yards on 336 touches. He averaged 4.9 yards per rush and rushed for 105.7 yards per game. The 24-year old became the first player in the history of football to average more than 100 yards rushing and more than 50 yards receiving per game in a season.

Bell has developed into one of the best players in the NFL. He is comfortably the best running back in the NFL because of his versatility. That's no slight to David Johnson or Ezekiel Elliott -- Bell has just developed to the point that he needs to be put on his own pedestal.

Emphasis is mine....Time to spin out why FO is now stupid, Spermy! 

So I’ve established that:

- He’s multiple seasons from the dreaded 1,800 carry mark. By his average carries per season he is at least two full seasons away from hitting that mark.

- His rushing production alone has consistently made him one of FO’s 5 best pure rushers in the league today. 

- He’s been overall/in aggregate the league’s most productive recieving back over the past 4 seasons. 

- He’s a historically relevant and rare RB by becoming the first to average 100/50 in a season. 

- His total production and consistency make him the best back in the league today. 

And you’ve got:

- Yards/touches isn’t something a serious analysis uses.

- In your opinion he has not done anything special. 

- He was only ranked 5th on FO’s index this year as a rusher. (Yes, I know 9/11/5 as a reciever by DYAR/DVOA/EYrds) 

- He missed games in 2015 due to injury. 

- He is the first and only great RB to play for a good team and therefore, on top of his recieving not counting, his production needs to be arbitrarily adjusted down using #science.