Debunking the Kirk Cousins/Neil O’ Donnell comparison.

[jetspenguin]

1 hour ago, Patriot Killa said:

I felt like you were only bringing that up because that was the only thing you got out of it. You should of just said this to begin with.? 

sorry, @jetspenguin hope we are good bro.

No we are good, like I said it was a good write up and honestly I'm not against Cousins per se. I am not as confident in him as others are but he is no neil odonnell for christ sake. 

If we got him then we can use picks to address other needs and we can clearly afford it even if we overpay a bit. My gut however tells me he is another short term fix, 5 years max (likely 3-4) and if all the other stars arent aligned we still dont get a ring and have to start all over. 

At my age, I'd like a QB that is a minimum 10 year fixture and we can spend the first 3 years getting a serious team together and the next 7 whuppin some ass. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, jetspenguin said:

No we are good, like I said it was a good write up and honestly I'm not against Cousins per se. I am not as confident in him as others are but he is no neil odonnell for christ sake. 

If we got him then we can use picks to address other needs and we can clearly afford it even if we overpay a bit. My gut however tells me he is another short term fix, 5 years max (likely 3-4) and if all the other stars arent aligned we still dont get a ring and have to start all over. 

At my age, I'd like a QB that is a minimum 10 year fixture and we can spend the first 3 years getting a serious team together and the next 7 whuppin some ass. 

I have been on both sides of the fence as well as ON the fence with this subject so believe me I know where you are coming from. I feel like witthoe weak the AFC is right now(and how week it looks for the foreseeable future) we have a good shot with a good QB and pieces around him and definitely within that 3-4..5 year window. But I also would look a sustainable future as well. I wouldn’t mind double dipping and grabbing Falk if he lasted to the 3rd round just in s solid attempt to create a scenario where both of our opinions on what should be done can co-exists..although as you can tell by my Avi..I’m a huge Mayfield fan..you can say i’d be excited either way it goes and believe we can do something good next year either route we take. But the proven QB route(something people may not again is so proven) is what I’m leaning on at the moment. Hopefully we double dip. I love Falk’s accuracy..it’s the most important trait in a QB aside from reading defenses and going thru progressions. He’s tough too.

[jetspenguin]

48 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I have been on both sides of the fence as well as ON the fence with this subject so believe me I know where you are coming from. I feel like witthoe weak the AFC is right now(and how week it looks for the foreseeable future) we have a good shot with a good QB and pieces around him and definitely within that 3-4..5 year window. But I also would look a sustainable future as well. I wouldn’t mind double dipping and grabbing Falk if he lasted to the 3rd round just in s solid attempt to create a scenario where both of our opinions on what should be done can co-exists..although as you can tell by my Avi..I’m a huge Mayfield fan..you can say i’d be excited either way it goes and believe we can do something good next year either route we take. But the proven QB route(something people may not again is so proven) is what I’m leaning on at the moment. Hopefully we double dip. I love Falk’s accuracy..it’s the most important trait in a QB aside from reading defenses and going thru progressions. He’s tough too.

I have been back and forth so many times on this too. I was and mostly still am a big mayfield fan, I also bought into the stidham hype a month or so ago but have fallen back a bit on that. I've never paid much attention to falk honestly but I agree 100% that the accuracy of a qb in college is a significant factor in how much potential he has at the next level. I see brady and brees hit targets with deadly accuracy, leading their wr's, giving them a chance for YAC and it ******* burns me up that we can never get a guy to do that. Even in some of our "good" recent years the qb's we have throw in the general area and our wr's make a play on ball but rarely do we get the opportunities for YAC unless the wr's are breaking tackles like Q was doing a couple of years ago. 

I want a guy that can hit them in stride, lead them and throw them open with anticipation. If you put a gun to my head I'd take any guy you put in a green uniform that can do it, rook or vet. 

[JetFaninMI]

11 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Just a hypothetical, is that something you'd sign up for?

It's never going to happen. It's so far off the mark that you can't legitimately discuss it.

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, JetFaninMI said:

It's never going to happen. It's so far off the mark that you can't legitimately discuss it.

Just humor me, if that situation was possible would you sign up for it?

[JetFaninMI]

On 1/16/2018 at 7:01 AM, BigO said:

Cousins would be a fool to come here. He doesn’t strike me as a fool. He’s a cool, collected, smart kid whose extremely confident and savy. He’s in prime position to pick his spot. The Browns followed by the Jets would be his least desirable destinations. Anybody who thinks he’d sign with the Jets is whistling Dixie.....and wasting mental energy. Get over it Jetsies,  he's signing with the Broncos. 

This is what I have been saying for a while. The guy has to want to win and win now. Why in the hell would he come to a team with so many holes? So much needs to be done to this roster and those who think the addition of Cousins alone will make this a playoff team are delusional.

[#27TheDominator]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:25 PM, Matt39 said:

Parcells had more confidence in Ray Lucas.

Parcells had more confidence in Leon Johnson.  Parcells is a fat moron. 

[bla bla bla]

19 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

It's never going to happen. It's so far off the mark that you can't legitimately discuss it.

It absolutely sounds too good to be true. If it were a possibility though would you sign up for it? 

[JetFaninMI]

8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Just humor me, if that situation was possible would you sign up for it?

Cousins at 20 mil per? How many years? How much guaranteed? I need more info.                                                                                   I'm more interested in developing a QB than signing one. I would rather draft a guy and start from scratch and surround him with high end talent than pay a guy already set in his ways. Habits are hard to break and some guys are not adaptable. I'm not saying Cousins is but I'm not willing to spend 100 mil plus to find out.

[Patriot Killa]

24 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

Cousins at 20 mil per? How many years? How much guaranteed? I need more info.                                                                                   I'm more interested in developing a QB than signing one. I would rather draft a guy and start from scratch and surround him with high end talent than pay a guy already set in his ways. Habits are hard to break and some guys are not adaptable. I'm not saying Cousins is but I'm not willing to spend 100 mil plus to find out.

What if we can both get what we want. Kirk Cousins but double dip in the 3rd for someone with tools to succeed on the pro level like Luke Falk. Tough with pin point accuracy.

[#27TheDominator]

On 1/14/2018 at 3:08 PM, Patriot Killa said:

Don’t ask stupid questions if you know the answer ,as I had just reveled my birth date two posts above this one. Google, deep research and limitless resources are a thing, ya know? Don’t play me like I’m clueless. That’s the last thing I am. I did my leg work on the 90’s Jets. I don’t talk out of the side of my neck. I find it offensive that you are scrutinizing me because you don’t agree with my very informative and compelling write up. You can disagree. Don’t discredit me though.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 4:16 PM, Patriot Killa said:

I been flip flopping as you know. But this was my honest and wholesome evaluation.. So idk Who this is directed towards

Do you write your own yelp reviews? 

On 1/14/2018 at 2:42 PM, Patriot Killa said:

I knew this would be said. Which is why I made it a point to debunk that with the completion percentage per attempt comparison

How does completion percentage debunk anything?  First of all, completion percentage is the percentage of completions per attempt, so completion percentage per attempt is a bit redundant.  Second, why does that change the discussion of players from different eras?  Just as other passing statistics have gone up, so has completion percentage.  The last few years, the leaders have been around 70%.  In '98-99 the leaders were 63% and 65%.  There were some guys with high percentages during O'Donnell's time in the league, but (this is from memory, not checking numbers) I think they were primarily WCO Montana/Young.  I think Kenny Anderson had a crazy big year. 

O'Donnell and Cousins are different, but I think you sell O'Donnell a bit short.  His main claim to fame was not throwing INTs.  He did this quite well for most of his career, though he was pretty horrible in 1996.  He let the Steelers down in the Super Bowl against the Cowboys, throwing 2 picks that gave the Cowboys the ball on something like the 20 and 10 for easy TDs in a 10 point game.  Not a good look for a supreme game manager. The Steelers wanted him back - I think they were offering him about $4M per compared to the Jets $5M.  The Steelers, particularly in that era were very cheap and stuck to their number without panic.  They lost a bunch of players.

I thought O'Donnell would do well with Parcells.  Like Hugh Douglas and Adrian Murrell, his minimize mistakes style seemed like the right type of player for the Tuna.  Parcells never seemed to like him and I always assumed it had to do with personality/leadership. Parcells did seem to demand a certain personality.

None of this is to say that I think O'Donnell is a good comp for Cousins.  Beyond the idea that people don't like free agent QBs.  If O'Donnell was at the level of Cousins, the Steelers would have franchised him a time or two, no? 

[JetFaninMI]

12 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

What if we can both get what we want. Kirk Cousins but double dip in the 3rd for someone with tools to succeed on the pro level like Luke Falk. Tough with pin point accuracy.

Well I don't really think you should draft another QB if you're signing Cousins. If they go that route it means they are trying to win right now. That draft pick would be better served to fill a need position. What they should do if they signed Cousins is to bring back McCown to back him up. I'm for that if Morton is retained. A guy who knows the offense and could help out Cousins. While I'm not a huge fan of his McCown could be a quality backup.

[bla bla bla]

36 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

Cousins at 20 mil per? How many years? How much guaranteed? I need more info.                                                                                   I'm more interested in developing a QB than signing one. I would rather draft a guy and start from scratch and surround him with high end talent than pay a guy already set in his ways. Habits are hard to break and some guys are not adaptable. I'm not saying Cousins is but I'm not willing to spend 100 mil plus to find out.

That's the thing though, you really shouldn't be looking at total money or the per year average, you should be concerned about the % of cap that is taken up by the cap hits and if that will prohibit us from signing future talent. This is why I am asking you the questions the way I am, if you can humor me and just answer these 2 questions I promise it will be worth your while.

Question 1 - If we have $71M in cap for 2018 (4th in the NFL) and $45M in cap for 2019 (would be 11th in the NFL this year) and a full array of draft picks both years do you think that is enough to add talent to this team?

Question 2 - If his % of cap taken up is equivalent to that of 16th highest paid QB this year would you be okay with adding Cousins?

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

Well I don't really think you should draft another QB if you're signing Cousins. If they go that route it means they are trying to win right now. That draft pick would be better served to fill a need position. What they should do if they signed Cousins is to bring back McCown to back him up. I'm for that if Morton is retained. A guy who knows the offense and could help out Cousins. While I'm not a huge fan of his McCown could be a quality backup.

Cousins is getting $25-30M.  You want to add another $6M for his backup?  

[Patriot Killa]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

Do you write your own yelp reviews? 

How does completion percentage debunk anything?  First of all, completion percentage is the percentage of completions per attempt, so completion percentage per attempt is a bit redundant.  Second, why does that change the discussion of players from different eras?  Just as other passing statistics have gone up, so has completion percentage.  The last few years, the leaders have been around 70%.  In '98-99 the leaders were 63% and 65%.  There were some guys with high percentages during O'Donnell's time in the league, but (this is from memory, not checking numbers) I think they were primarily WCO Montana/Young.  I think Kenny Anderson had a crazy big year. 

O'Donnell and Cousins are different, but I think you sell O'Donnell a bit short.  His main claim to fame was not throwing INTs.  He did this quite well for most of his career, though he was pretty horrible in 1996.  He let the Steelers down in the Super Bowl against the Cowboys, throwing 2 picks that gave the Cowboys the ball on something like the 20 and 10 for easy TDs in a 10 point game.  Not a good look for a supreme game manager. The Steelers wanted him back - I think they were offering him about $4M per compared to the Jets $5M.  The Steelers, particularly in that era were very cheap and stuck to their number without panic.  They lost a bunch of players.

I thought O'Donnell would do well with Parcells.  Like Hugh Douglas and Adrian Murrell, his minimize mistakes style seemed like the right type of player for the Tuna.  Parcells never seemed to like him and I always assumed it had to do with personality/leadership. Parcells did seem to demand a certain personality.

None of this is to say that I think O'Donnell is a good comp for Cousins.  Beyond the idea that people don't like free agent QBs.  If O'Donnell was at the level of Cousins, the Steelers would have franchised him a time or two, no? 

Per attempt verses completion percentage is not just scheme based results. They also show the accuracy(obviously) and decisiveness of the QB. And yes, I know about the super bowl drives..it covers that in the links I embedded at the bottom. I’m not disregarding that but ultimately his sloppy QB play lost them that game. Further more Troy Aikman held a completion percentage in the high 60’s as well to challenge your point about the WCO system. His main claim to fame was winning games but leaning on his pro bowl RB and all star D. He was turnover prone to some extent and he wasn’t the most intelligent QB at reading what defenses were doing. But no, completion percentage/attempts DOES have a lot to do with the debunk of their comparisons as passers. It’s the only stat you can carry into different eras. 

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Cousins is getting $25-30M.  You want to add another $6M for his backup?  

If signing Cousins means we are gunning for a SB this season then I wouldn't really have a problem signing McCown after training camp if we had the cap space. I like the idea of having a capable backup, just not if it prohibits us from signing someone else.

[JetFaninMI]

2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

That's the thing though, you really shouldn't be looking at total money or the per year average, you should be concerned about the % of cap that is taken up by the cap hits and if that will prohibit us from signing future talent. This is why I am asking you the questions the way I am, if you can humor me and just answer these 2 questions I promise it will be worth your while.

Question 1 - If we have $71M in cap for 2018 (4th in the NFL) and $45M in cap for 2019 (would be 11th in the NFL this year) and a full array of draft picks both years do you think that is enough to add talent to this team?

Question 2 - If his % of cap taken up is equivalent to that of 16th highest paid QB this year would you be okay with adding Cousins?

You are leaving out a bunch of things. They need cap space to sign rookies, UFDA'S etc. Plus Cousins is not going to sign for your figure so that cap figure is wrong. You want to talk about percentages and rankings but you're basing it on a figure that will never happen. A waste of time really.

[Patriot Killa]

Just now, bla bla bla said:

If signing Cousins means we are gunning for a SB this season then I wouldn't really have a problem signing McCown after training camp if we had the cap space. I like the idea of having a capable backup, just not if it prohibits us from signing someone else.

Not when there are FA’s on the board like Lawrence, Jensen, Ansah, Robinson, Trumaine, Fuller available. We have other gaps too.

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, JetFaninMI said:

You are leaving out a bunch of things. They need cap space to sign rookies, UFDA'S etc. Plus Cousins is not going to sign for your figure so that cap figure is wrong. You want to talk about percentages and rankings but you're basing it on a figure that will never happen. A waste of time really.

Is the 4th most cap space in the league not enough to sign rookies and UDFAs? There would be 28 other teams that are in a dire cap situation then. I promise you this is worth your while just humor me and answer those 2 questions. It won't be a waste of your time.

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

Not when there are FA’s on the board like Lawrence, Jensen, Ansah, Robinson, Trumaine, Fuller available. We have other gaps too.

You didn't read my post correctly

[JetFaninMI]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Cousins is getting $25-30M.  You want to add another $6M for his backup?  

Well if they are going all in and they will be if they give Cousins 125-150 mil over 5 or more years they have to have a quality backup. What if Cousins gets hurt in that first year? Hey it could happen. You want to spend all that money on Cousins and other guy's they will have to add just to have a rookie or even worse Bryce friggin Petty  start? I know it's a long shot but if I'm going all in I want insurance for any and all contingencies.

[JoJoTownsell1]

This thread is pointless. I am sure there were idiots in New Orleans that didn't want to sign Drew Brees in 2006. I am sure those fans regret bringing in that short QB with Arm issues. If Brees was so good, why would the Chargers use a high pick on Rivers (well Eli, but you get the point)??

Cousins is a very good QB. Very good QBs rarely become available but thanks to an organization that has somehow been run worse than the Jets, we have a chance to sign away a franchise QB. We would be fortunate to land him. I am less worried about Cousins ability than I am with our ability to convince him to come to the Jets. 

[JetFaninMI]

8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Is the 4th most cap space in the league not enough to sign rookies and UDFAs? There would be 28 other teams that are in a dire cap situation then. I promise you this is worth your while just humor me and answer those 2 questions. It won't be a waste of your time.

The cap figure is based on 20mil per correct? So it's wrong if based on that figure. Cousins could make 10mil more per. It's just not realistic. Based on your numbers yes it would be enough to sign others.                                                                   To answer the second question in a word. No. I'm not okay with adding Cousins for all the reasons I have laid out over and over again. Draft a QB. Use FA and the draft to surround that QB with talent and use future drafts and cap space to augment it. Build something with a foundation to last year's not just a flash in the pan.

[#27TheDominator]

15 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Per attempt verses completion percentage is not just scheme based results. They also show the accuracy(obviously) and decisiveness of the QB. And yes, I know about the super bowl drives..it covers that in the links I embedded at the bottom. I’m not disregarding that but ultimately his sloppy QB play lost them that game. Further more Troy Aikman held a completion percentage in the high 60’s as well to challenge your point about the WCO system. His main claim to fame was winning games but leaning on his pro bowl RB and all star D. He was turnover prone to some extent and he wasn’t the most intelligent QB at reading what defenses were doing. But no, completion percentage/attempts DOES have a lot to do with the debunk of their comparisons as passers. It’s the only stat you can carry into different eras. 

Maybe I have no idea what you are talking about.  What is per attempt versus completion percentage?  

You can "challenge my point" but completion percentage has gone up through the years. It has gone up pretty steadily throughout NFL history.  Here look. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm  Similarly passing attempts have generally gone up as well, though the results are not as linear and we are dealing with tenths of an attempt per game.   How can you say you can carry that into different eras? 

I understand your argument that, as opposed to Cousins, O'Donnell suffered the more he was forced to throw, but that isn't the same thing as a statistic you can use to compare the two.  O'Donnell was a guy that never started all 16 games and due to injuries and strange coaching, missed plays and games in favor Mike Tomczak and Slash. I think that "statistic" is more a factor of the fact that the Steelers were a running defensive team and the Redskins are a pass first team with a bottom third D and sketchy running game.  Philosophically, that pretty much states that one will have higher attempts when he is having success, while the other will only throw volume when absolutely necessary.  

[Patriot Killa]

42 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

You didn't read my post correctly

After training camp..ahh but he had a career year and proved to be a valuable back up..no chance another team snatched him up?

[#27TheDominator]

38 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

Well if they are going all in and they will be if they give Cousins 125-150 mil over 5 or more years they have to have a quality backup. What if Cousins gets hurt in that first year? Hey it could happen. You want to spend all that money on Cousins and other guy's they will have to add just to have a rookie or even worse Bryce friggin Petty  start? I know it's a long shot but if I'm going all in I want insurance for any and all contingencies.

No.  You don't have to have a quality backup. If you think that Cousins is worth that much, then no backup is going to fill his shoes. You pay all that money precisely because you are not hedging your bets. Going all in is going all in, contingencies be damned.

[JetFaninMI]

35 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

No.  You don't have to have a quality backup. If you think that Cousins is worth that much, then no backup is going to fill his shoes. You pay all that money precisely because you are not hedging your bets. Going all in is going all in, contingencies be damned.

Yeah well I remember Vinny T going down after tearing his Achilles when this team had Super Bowl aspirations. I also remember the crappy season that followed. So I am a firm believer in hedging my bets. Especially in this game.                     I'm not asking the backup to fill the guys shoes. I'm just wanting the team to have a fighting chance in case the starter goes down. Not having a quality backup is incredibly shortsighted IMO and just ask any team that has lost their starting QB that question and I bet you find they will agree.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, JetFaninMI said:

Yeah well I remember Vinny T going down after tearing his Achilles when this team had Super Bowl aspirations. I also remember the crappy season that followed. So I am a firm believer in hedging my bets. Especially in this game.                     I'm not asking the backup to fill the guys shoes. I'm just wanting the team to have a fighting chance in case the starter goes down. Not having a quality backup is incredibly shortsighted IMO and just ask any team that has lost their starting QB that question and I bet you find they will agree.

Of course you try to have a quality backup, but paying $6M for the privilege is more shortsighted IMO.  You are the one referencing going all in.  As a GM I would never go all in, I am looking to compete year in, year out.  Putting $36M at the QB position does not do that.  The Jets did not have a fighting chance without Vinny no matter who they used.  I know, I know Ray Lucas. Ha.  The Jets do not have a "fighting chance" with McCown.  He had a career year and this team went 5-11.  The Eagles have Nick Foles, but they have that luxury because their QB is on a rookie deal.  You get Cousins you need a guy on a rookie deal. 

[JetFaninMI]

33 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Of course you try to have a quality backup, but paying $6M for the privilege is more shortsighted IMO.  You are the one referencing going all in.  As a GM I would never go all in, I am looking to compete year in, year out.  Putting $36M at the QB position does not do that.  The Jets did not have a fighting chance without Vinny no matter who they used.  I know, I know Ray Lucas. Ha.  The Jets do not have a "fighting chance" with McCown.  He had a career year and this team went 5-11.  The Eagles have Nick Foles, but they have that luxury because their QB is on a rookie deal.  You get Cousins you need a guy on a rookie deal. 

1st of all you or I don't know how much McCown would want. You tell him the situation and offer him X amount of money. If he declines so be it. That's why I'm against signing Cousins in the first place. You draft the QB and surround him with talent. Then if he goes down you can have the luxury of having a quality backup. You can also let that young QB sit until he is ready if need be. For this team right now I don't want Cousins. I think it's all moot anyway. Cousins is going to Denver, Arizona or a team yet to come in to the mix.

 

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

1st of all you or I don't know how much McCown would want. You tell him the situation and offer him X amount of money. If he declines so be it. That's why I'm against signing Cousins in the first place. You draft the QB and surround him with talent. Then if he goes down you can have the luxury of having a quality backup. You can also let that young QB sit until he is ready if need be. For this team right now I don't want Cousins. I think it's all moot anyway. Cousins is going to Denver, Arizona or a team yet to come in to the mix.

Not wanting Cousins to save money?  Okay.  Wanting Cousins and a "quality backup?"  Seems excessive.  How many teams have serious solid starting QBs and a "quality backup?"  How many teams have two QBs that are not on their rookie deals? 

McCown signed for $6M for 2017.   With his incentives he got much closer to $8M.  He had a career year.  Do you expect to sign him for the vet min?  Kick the tires, sure, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Say you get Cousins for $27M per.  What is your offer to McCown?

[bla bla bla]

5 hours ago, JetFaninMI said:

The cap figure is based on 20mil per correct? So it's wrong if based on that figure. Cousins could make 10mil more per. It's just not realistic. Based on your numbers yes it would be enough to sign others.                                                                   To answer the second question in a word. No. I'm not okay with adding Cousins for all the reasons I have laid out over and over again. Draft a QB. Use FA and the draft to surround that QB with talent and use future drafts and cap space to augment it. Build something with a foundation to last year's not just a flash in the pan.

Your right he would make more than $20M. The situation that I just described can certainly happen. If the Redskins place the transition tag on him, like is expected, and he doesn't want to sign there, which many people feel he wants out, there will only be 2 teams that can beat out the Redskins. The Browns and the Jets. The Browns have 2 picks in the top 5 and seem pretty satisfied with drafting their next QB. If the Jets offered to make Cousins the highest paid QB in the NFL and get him out of Washington I think he would take the deal.

The contract I illuded to is an average of $28M per year ($1M more per year than Stafford). 6 years $168M with $75M guaranteed, you're the only one in contention and he doesn't want to be there, so why go too high? 

Year 1 - $40M ($71M remaining in cap)

Year 2 - $35M ($45M in cap space, assuming we use every penny from 2018)

these two years would be what it would take IMO to make it impossible for Washington to match a deal. You can guarantee the first 2 years or even 3, I think you'd really plan to keep him longer than that anyway. Since you would have already paid $75M of the $168M the final 4 years of the deal would be 12.0% of the $200M cap in 2020 (16th highest paid QB this year takes 12.0% of the cap or $20.5M). Year 3 when his deal becomes manageable is when you'd need to pay your first FAs (Jenkins, Leo, Anderson)

Year 3 - $24M (12.0%) 

Year 4 - $23M (10.9%)

Year 5 - $23M (10.5%)

Year 6 - $23M (10.0%)

you'd basically be paying him lower the the 16th highest player gets now in relation to his cap percentage used up. I do believe Cousins is a top 16 QB in this league and could certainly be argued higher than that. So while it takes up a lot of space the first 2 years we still have more than enough money to sign whoever we want. There would only  be 3 teams with more cap space than us. 

If he doesn't bite on that then I'm 100% on board with trading up with the Browns who you'd think would auction the pick off if they signed Cousins. The Broncos, Jags, Cardinals, and Bills won't have enough cap to offer a deal the Redskins can't match and if Cousins doesn't want to go back to Washington he'll look for a team that can beat it.

[JetFaninMI]

2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Your right he would make more than $20M. The situation that I just described can certainly happen. If the Redskins place the transition tag on him, like is expected, and he doesn't want to sign there, which many people feel he wants out, there will only be 2 teams that can beat out the Redskins. The Browns and the Jets. The Browns have 2 picks in the top 5 and seem pretty satisfied with drafting their next QB. If the Jets offered to make Cousins the highest paid QB in the NFL and get him out of Washington I think he would take the deal.

The contract I illuded to is an average of $28M per year ($1M more per year than Stafford). 6 years $168M with $75M guaranteed, you're the only one in contention and he doesn't want to be there, so why go too high? 

Year 1 - $40M ($71M remaining in cap)

Year 2 - $35M ($45M in cap space, assuming we use every penny from 2018)

these two years would be what it would take IMO to make it impossible for Washington to match a deal. You can guarantee the first 2 years or even 3, I think you'd really plan to keep him longer than that anyway. Since you would have already paid $75M of the $168M the final 4 years of the deal would be 12.0% of the $200M cap in 2020 (16th highest paid QB this year takes 12.0% of the cap or $20.5M). Year 3 when his deal becomes manageable is when you'd need to pay your first FAs (Jenkins, Leo, Anderson)

Year 3 - $24M (12.0%) 

Year 4 - $23M (10.9%)

Year 5 - $23M (10.5%)

Year 6 - $23M (10.0%)

you'd basically be paying him lower the the 16th highest player gets now in relation to his cap percentage used up. I do believe Cousins is a top 16 QB in this league and could certainly be argued higher than that. So while it takes up a lot of space the first 2 years we still have more than enough money to sign whoever we want. There would only  be 3 teams with more cap space than us. 

If he doesn't bite on that then I'm 100% on board with trading up with the Browns who you'd think would auction the pick off if they signed Cousins. The Broncos, Jags, Cardinals, and Bills won't have enough cap to offer a deal the Redskins can't match and if Cousins doesn't want to go back to Washington he'll look for a team that can beat it.

The first two years of that contract are insane. You did put in some work on it and I commend you for it. I just don't see Macc ever committing to something like that. You how Macc is fond of his deals with structured outs after 2 or 3 seasons. I can't see him committing almost half the value of the contract in the 1st two seasons. It is so out of character for him that there is no way he does it based on his past deals.

The animosity between Cousins and the 'Skins may or may not be true. I don't think the Redskins will commit almost 35 mil for one season to Cousins without a long term commitment. I think Snyder will let him walk before he does that. If Cousins hits the open market he will be in play and I could see the teams you mentioned(except the Jags maybe) finding a way to fit him into their cap structure. I think the key is Elway. He can appeal to Cousins on a level few GM's can. I think Denver will somehow win out. The Bill should not be counted out either. They have 41 mil in cap space according to over the cap.com and can compete on a back loaded deal. Whatever happens it will be interesting to watch.

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Not wanting Cousins to save money?  Okay.  Wanting Cousins and a "quality backup?"  Seems excessive.  How many teams have serious solid starting QBs and a "quality backup?"  How many teams have two QBs that are not on their rookie deals? 

McCown signed for $6M for 2017.   With his incentives he got much closer to $8M.  He had a career year.  Do you expect to sign him for the vet min?  Kick the tires, sure, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Say you get Cousins for $27M per.  What is your offer to McCown?

If we do sign Cousins the ideal backup would be a rookie qb we draft in the middle rounds

[bla bla bla]

1 hour ago, JetFaninMI said:

The first two years of that contract are insane. You did put in some work on it and I commend you for it. I just don't see Macc ever committing to something like that. You how Macc is fond of his deals with structured outs after 2 or 3 seasons. I can't see him committing almost half the value of the contract in the 1st two seasons. It is so out of character for him that there is no way he does it based on his past deals.

The animosity between Cousins and the 'Skins may or may not be true. I don't think the Redskins will commit almost 35 mil for one season to Cousins without a long term commitment. I think Snyder will let him walk before he does that. If Cousins hits the open market he will be in play and I could see the teams you mentioned(except the Jags maybe) finding a way to fit him into their cap structure. I think the key is Elway. He can appeal to Cousins on a level few GM's can. I think Denver will somehow win out. The Bill should not be counted out either. They have 41 mil in cap space according to over the cap.com and can compete on a back loaded deal. Whatever happens it will be interesting to watch.

So with the transition tag isn't $34M it's actually $28M. This also allows the Skins to match a deal so it shows the fans they are allowing Cousins to test FA to get the best deal and they will match any reasonable deal that is put forward. Now if Cousins does not want to be there he needs to find a team that can beat the tag, that's where the Jets and Browns come into play. I do agree if he hits UFA my gut would tell me he may look to go to Denver for less money to allow them to keep some of their talent. I do think that the Redskins are upset with Kirk and would like to limit his options to where he can leave to. If they can block him from going to a hot team then that's their final "FU to Kirk" so if Kirk actually wants out of Washington he'll need to take a deal the Skins can't match and would in turn look like the bad guy for leaving instead of the front office for not trying to sign him.

So Macc may not want to commit that much up front but if Transitioned that would be the only way to get him so if he doesn't want him then we just have to turn our attention to the draft. I do think Macc, Bowles and the Johnsons all have their reasons why it makes sense for them to go hard after Cousins but the wild card is really what to the Redskins do in terms of FA or the Transition Tag, I don't think the Franchise Tag comes into play.

Denver can certainly back load a deal if they think they can make that work but the Redskins will be able to match a deal like that so he would need to be an UFA for a deal like that to work. Maybe the Skins are just done with him and don't care about their image but given the mud slinging that they have kind of done it would lead me to believe they care what their fans think.