An argument for Macc, or any GM who is on equal ground with their HC

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Macc and Bowles are essentially equals and both report to Chris Johnson. Macc has no say over who plays, and Bowles technically has no say in personnel decisions. The balance of power is in Bowles' favor. Macc has to select players who fit the scheme of the head coach, and Bowles does not have to play anyone who Macc selects. How can you truly judge a GM who essentially a bean counter? Does Macc select Adams and Maye if Bowles was an offense first type of coach?

I have my opinions on both Bowles and Maccagnan, but this thread is more about the chain of command and power structure. Insert any two names into this structure and my question remains the same. 

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Macc and Bowles are essentially equals and both report to Chris Johnson. Macc has no say over who plays, and Bowles technically has no say in personnel decisions. The balance of power is in Bowles' favor. Macc has to select players who fit the scheme of the head coach, and Bowles does not have to play anyone who Macc selects. How can you truly judge a GM who essentially a bean counter? Does Macc select Adams and Maye if Bowles was an offense first type of coach?

I have my opinions on both Bowles and Maccagnan, but this thread is more about the chain of command and power structure. Insert any two names into this structure and my question remains the same. 

Michael Maccagnan, independent of Todd Bowles, drafted Christian Hackenberg.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Michael Maccagnan, independent of Todd Bowles, drafted Christian Hackenberg.

I'm not giving him a pass on his whiff, but every GM has made an awful pick. At what point are we going to let it go? This is the same guy who traded a locker room cancer for a second round pick and a serviceable WR. 

[Beerfish]

Mac is handicapped by the awful ny jets org structure but in the end he has to pick good players and valuable players, that is his job, he has failed so far.

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'm not giving him a pass on his whiff, but every GM has made an awful pick. At what point are we going to let it go? This is the same guy who traded a locker room cancer for a second round pick and a serviceable WR. 

These things are true:

1. Both Sheldon Richardson and Mo Wilkerson, who were at-times dominant players under Rex Ryan, straight up quit on Todd Bowles.

2. Todd Bowles has shown zero—ZERO—ability to manage high maintenance personalities, and Mike Maccagnan has been tasked with dumping those players and salaries as a result.

3. Turning the ninth overall pick into Jermaine Kearse and a late two isn’t exactly voodoo witchcraft.

[Beerfish]

13 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'm not giving him a pass on his whiff, but every GM has made an awful pick. At what point are we going to let it go? This is the same guy who traded a locker room cancer for a second round pick and a serviceable WR. 

He has had three full drafts and he has solidified two positions, punter and safety.

QB, Rb, oline, Dline, CB's, OLBS are worse or the same.  ILB may be a push.

He has not found any of the premium positions on a team.  QB, #1 CB, pass rusher, LT, dominant  weapons playmaker (WR or RB)

i like mac a lot more than Bowles but mac has been poor.  If mac does not hit a grand slam this draft he has to go.

[dbatesman]

30 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I have my opinions on both Bowles and Maccagnan, but this thread is more about the chain of command and power structure. 

No it’s not. It’s yet another Maccagnan apologia dressed up as balanced, rational, pox-on-both-your-houses analysis.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

These things are true:

1. Both Sheldon Richardson and Mo Wilkerson, who were at-times dominant players under Rex Ryan, straight up quit on Todd Bowles.

2. Todd Bowles has shown zero—ZERO—ability to manage high maintenance personalities, and Mike Maccagnan has been tasked with dumping those players and salaries as a result.

3. Turning the ninth overall pick into Jermaine Kearse and a late two isn’t exactly voodoo witchcraft.

No, it's not witchcraft, but it is a quality move by a GM. Getting anything for a player who is a free agent at the end of the season is a good move. Getting a 2nd round pick and a decent WR who is on a team friendly contract is a really good move. If we are going to harp on his misses, we should praise his hits. 

I can't argue about Bowles, and I don't care to. Out of him and Macc, I see more potential in Macc.

[Dcat]

18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Michael Maccagnan, independent of Todd Bowles, drafted Christian Hackenberg.

Yup, he did.  But it was not a 1st rounder.  No GM under the Johnson regime gets to pick his 1st round selection without the approval of the HC.  That's why after Sanchez (picked by Rex under the Tanny regime b/c Rex fell in love with him), every one of the next NINE 1st round picks has been defense.  But the GM gets his choice in the other rounds.  And so far Mac has sucked in those rounds. 

Sanchez, Wilson, Coles, Wilk, Pryor, Richardson, Leo, Lee, Adams.  Tell me that's not Head Coach dictated?  9 defensive 1st rounders in a row.  No GM with true authority would ever do that.  /end

[Jetsplayer21]

30 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Macc and Bowles are essentially equals and both report to Chris Johnson. Macc has no say over who plays, and Bowles technically has no say in personnel decisions. The balance of power is in Bowles' favor. Macc has to select players who fit the scheme of the head coach, and Bowles does not have to play anyone who Macc selects. How can you truly judge a GM who essentially a bean counter? Does Macc select Adams and Maye if Bowles was an offense first type of coach?

I have my opinions on both Bowles and Maccagnan, but this thread is more about the chain of command and power structure. Insert any two names into this structure and my question remains the same. 

Just because your HC is 99% D oriented, doesn’t excuse Mac for being also. As GM he needs to know there is 2 sides of the ball. It shouldn’t be rocket science to know a Dcord HC is going to try to hussle you yo have put 90% of team focus on D. If Mac doesn’t realize that, or can’t stand up to Bowles about the need for offense, he should be fired first. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

No it’s not. It’s yet another Maccagnan apologia dressed up as balanced, rational, pox-on-both-your-houses analysis.

Are we going to get into a pissing match? The thread is about the chain of command and structure. It wouldn't make a difference if Phil McKrackin or Rosey Palmer was the GM, and Dick Grab was the head coach.

[SenorGato]

GM guy lost me at Mauldin but they have lots of money and draft picks year so that helps. 

I’ll be all all Cubs once ASJ and Claiborne resign THO

[Jetsfan80]

16 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

These things are true:

3. Turning the ninth overall pick into Jermaine Kearse and a late two isn’t exactly voodoo witchcraft.

And yet when I made a similar argument as this in another thread, like 12 people flamed me for it.  That's considered Macc's BEST trade to date, and still isn't anything special.  

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

If we are going to harp on his misses, we should praise his hits. 

If his misses far outweigh his hits, and his few hits aren't even that great, what good is he?

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

The thread is about the chain of command and structure. It wouldn't make a difference if Phil McKrackin or Rosey Palmer was the GM, and Dick Grab was the head coach.

 

The thread title starts with "An argument for Macc".  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The thread title starts with "An argument for Macc".  

Yup, but not apology for Macc.

[Jetsfan80]

17 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

No it’s not. It’s yet another Maccagnan apologia dressed up as balanced, rational, pox-on-both-your-houses analysis.

 

1 minute ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Yup, but not apology for Macc.

 

ap·o·lo·gi·a

ˌapəˈlōj(ē)ə/

noun

 

1. a formal written defense of one's opinions or conduct.

   "an apologia for book banning"

   synonyms:

   defense, justification, vindication, explanation; More

[CrazyCarl40]

13 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Are we going to get into a pissing match? The thread is about the chain of command and structure. It wouldn't make a difference if Phil McKrackin or Rosey Palmer was the GM, and Dick Grab was the head coach.

There’s no way that Dick Grab is ever coming to the Jets from Penn State. 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If his misses far outweigh his hits, and his few hits aren't even that great, what good is he?

Like I said, this thread is about the power structure. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

There’s no way that Dick Grab is ever coming to the Jets from Penn State. 

If a guy named Dick Grab with even remotely good front office experience came available, we'd simply have to hire him.  

He'd follow in the legacy of Woody Johnson and Dick Curl.  

[CrazyCarl40]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If a guy named Dick Grab with even remotely good front office experience came available, we'd simply have to hire him.  

He'd follow in the legacy of Woody Johnson and Dick Curl.  

Only if Korn Fairy or some washed up guy on TV said that he was the next big thing. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Like I said, this thread is about the power structure. 

The power structure sucks.  Our ownership sucks.  But that doesn't mean Macc is good.  It just means we need to fire Macc and Bowles, and start over with a VP taking control of all football operations away from the owners.  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

ap·o·lo·gi·a

ˌapəˈlōj(ē)ə/

noun

 

1. a formal written defense of one's opinions or conduct.

   "an apologia for book banning"

   synonyms:

   defense, justification, vindication, explanation; More

Dictionary -  a book or electronic resource that lists the words of a language

Like I said, I am not apologizing for Macc, and I am not apologia-izing for him either. It wasn't a formal written defense, and I am not defending his opinions or conduct. 

[CrazyCarl40]

1 minute ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Dictionary -  a book or electronic resource that lists the words of a language

Like I said, I am not apologizing for Macc, and I am not apologia-izing for him either. It wasn't a formal written defense, and I am not defending his opinions or conduct. 

So what is it that you would say that you’re doing here?

[Pac]

I'm more interested in the Ilks power structure.  Are DomShame and DButtman on equal footing?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[SenorGato]

The argument for GM guy is all tied to the bone dry salary cap situation. A few easy cuts and they’re at ~$110 million, nearly $150 in 2019, and nearly $180 in 2020 with no serious commits to anyone over 25. That’s the holy grail for rebuilding across sports sooooo....

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

The power structure sucks.  Our ownership sucks.  But that doesn't mean Macc is good.  It just means we need to fire Macc and Bowles, and start over with a VP taking control of all football operations away from the owners.  

I have no problem with a total house cleaning. This arrangement was doomed from the beginning. You can't be a GM if you are seated next to the head coach at a meeting.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

So what is it that you would say that you’re doing here?

See the original post and subsequent responses for that answer. 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I have no problem with a total house cleaning. This arrangement was doomed from the beginning. You can't be a GM if you are seated next to the head coach at a meeting.

Yep.  And it has helped make the Jets' draft philosophy among the worst in the league for years.  The GM comes in thinking they need to make picks whose first priority is to fit the HC's system and strengths.  That isn't a sustainable system; it's limiting.  And that's mainly how we end up with Darron Lee instead of, say, a Myles Jack or Michael Thomas, and Jamal Adams instead of DeShaun Watson.  And those kinds of mistakes impacted every previous regime.  

I get what you're saying.  ANY GM we have is going to have these problems.  Ownership is the biggest problem.  But it doesn't help that even when the GM is making picks to try to help the coach, he can't even pick good players.  

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  And it has helped make the Jets' draft philosophy among the worst in the league for years.  The GM comes in thinking they need to make picks whose first priority is to fit the HC's system and strengths.  That isn't a sustainable system; it's limiting.  And that's mainly how we end up with Darron Lee instead of, say, a Myles Jack or Michael Thomas, and Jamal Adams instead of DeShaun Watson.  

We agree completely on this.

[greenwave81]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Michael Maccagnan, independent of Todd Bowles, drafted Christian Hackenberg.

Not totally true....from SI:  https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/05/06/themmqb-christian-hackenberg-new-york-jets-quarterback-private-workout-nfl-draft-2016

Mired in a contract stalemate with Ryan Fitzpatrick, the Jets’ front office didn’t want the New York media to anoint Hackenberg as the franchise’s lifeline. On April 10, two weeks after the initial call, general manager Mike Maccagnan, head coach Todd Bowles, offensive coordinator Chan Gailey, quarterbacks coach Kevin Patullo, and two scouts drove to State College to conduct the workout at Penn State’s indoor football facility. The Jets delegation worked out the young quarterback for an hour, testing him on the aspects of the pro-style offense that weren’t a part of the Nittany Lions’ shotgun spread offense for the past two seasons...

 

As part of the evaluation process, Bowles wanted to hear Hackenberg explain his challenges with the coaching change, in order put to rest any concerns about his coachability. “I definitely needed to hear from him and hear what his thought process was and how he went through changing cultures and different coordinators in a system,” Bowles says. “He was forthright with everything, he understood that he has things he needs to work on, he acknowledged the coaching changes and he tried to do well in both systems. He admitted that he had some bad games but he also had some very good games, so I was very impressed with the way he presented himself.”

 

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

These things are true:

1. Both Sheldon Richardson and Mo Wilkerson, who were at-times dominant players under Rex Ryan, straight up quit on Todd Bowles.

2. Todd Bowles has shown zero—ZERO—ability to manage high maintenance personalities, and Mike Maccagnan has been tasked with dumping those players and salaries as a result.

3. Turning the ninth overall pick into Jermaine Kearse and a late two isn’t exactly voodoo witchcraft.

re: #3 Richardson

Actually, getting a 2nd round pick plus Kearse for a one-season rental (Sheldon is now a UFA) of an under-performing player who has a big mouth, clubhouse issues and is now one urine sample away from a full-year suspension is a damned good deal.  You're comparison is based on his draft status, which at the end of a rookie contract is no longer relevant, particularly when said player hasn't performed up to expectations, and has violated the league substance rules not to mention the 100+ MPH speeding with a child, a gun and pot in the car.  After 3 years, you know what you got and what he's worth.  Same for Wilk.  And Wilk had a rep for taking plays off from the very beginning and throughout his years with Rex.  Nothing new here.  Bowles couldn't fix it either.  That's on him for sure. 

But... Mac got the better of the Sheldon deal.  Has nothing to do with the untapped talent Sheldon has.  And Kearse is actually pretty good.

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Michael Maccagnan, independent of Todd Bowles, drafted Christian Hackenberg.

after reading the Bowles quote above, your statement is just wrong.  Apparently Bowles not only gave his blessing, but encouraged it.  And I am one who wants Mac gone. It is what it is.  In the world of Woody Johnson and bro, the HC and GM are equal in the power hierarchy.  I wish it weren't so, but that's the way it is in Florham Park.  We are stuck with it for now.  It's not changing anytime soon.

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

He has had three full drafts and he has solidified two positions, punter and safety.

QB, Rb, oline, Dline, CB's, OLBS are worse or the same.  ILB may be a push.

He has not found any of the premium positions on a team.  QB, #1 CB, pass rusher, LT, dominant  weapons playmaker (WR or RB)

i like mac a lot more than Bowles but mac has been poor.  If mac does not hit a grand slam this draft he has to go.

^This   

[Jetsplayer21]

6 minutes ago, Dcat said:

re: #3 Richardson

Actually, getting a 2nd round pick plus Kearse for a one-season rental (Sheldon is now a UFA) of an under-performing player who has a big mouth, clubhouse issues and is now one urine sample away from a full-year suspension is a damned good deal.  You're comparison is based on his draft status, which at the end of a rookie contract is no longer relevant, particularly when said player hasn't performed up to expectations, and has violated the league substance rules not to mention the 100+ MPH speeding with a child, a gun and pot in the car.  After 3 years, you know what you got and what he's worth.  Same for Wilk.  And Wilk had a rep for taking plays off from the very beginning and throughout his years with Rex.  Nothing new here.  Bowles couldn't fix it either.  That's on him for sure. 

But... Mac got the better of the Sheldon deal.  Has nothing to do with the untapped talent Sheldon has.  And Kearse is actually pretty good.

And you forgot to mention jets can easily sign Richardson back this yr as a FA. Kearse was a guy they wanted to dump on us. Mac did not fight to get him. We don’t get a 2nd rounder for Sheldon unless we took kearse. He would have been the Seahawks 4th option as receiver. I hope jets sign steal jimmy graham who is a FA.