Offensive Line Question

[TuscanyTile2]

I understand why a LT is so valuable (to protect the QB's blind side) and a C as well (since it's the middle of the O-line and touches the ball on every play).  However, why are guards less important than a RT?  Or are they?  It's just a guess but aren't more running plays generally up the middle than off tackle?  And even if those off the tackle runs can having pulling guards and that type of thing.  

[BCJet]

The bigger question is what lineman fit the zone blocking scheme that the jets are going to run, vs the power scheme that has been in place the last couple years.

Carpenter for one, is not a good zone blocker and would be a poor fit for what Dennison and Bates are going to run.  Winters should be good as he is athletic and good in space.  I personally think Beachem would be a good fit as well, because he is on the lighter, more athletic side as well.  Shell should be fine as a RT, I dont see him being a star, but he certainly isnt someone we look to replace with 2 years left on a rookie deal.

The bigger question is what to do now at center and guard.  Ryan Jensen is a big, mauling center - but Baltimore plays a zone/power combo scheme so he has experience with zone blocking.  If we do wind up "stuck" with drafting quentin nelson at 6, I believe his talent trumps the scheme and he can excel no matter what we run.  The opportunity that zone blocking presents though, is that if we do get lucky and Barkley or Chubb falls to 6, we can wait and draft the Iowa center James Daniels who has experience in a zone blocking system, and grab a different position at 6.

 

[bitonti]

7 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Ryan Jensen is a big, mauling center - but Baltimore plays a zone/power combo scheme so he has experience with zone blocking.  If we do wind up "stuck" with drafting quentin nelson at 6, I believe his talent trumps the scheme and he can excel no matter what we run.  The opportunity that zone blocking presents though, is that if we do get lucky and Barkley or Chubb falls to 6, we can wait and draft the Iowa center James Daniels who has experience in a zone blocking system, and grab a different position at 6.

2

Ryan Jensen would be a great pickup. The Jets should not be in the offensive line market in the draft rd 1 though. Nelson might be BPA but let's get real he's not going top 10 he's going to be like a late first when it's all said and done. If he does go high its the Chance Warmack, Jonathan Cooper pick all over again the guy who is "just a guard" shouldn't go top 10. 

The original poster asked a question about value and guards are not rare in fact every failed tackle can become a guard. A failed guard is not in the league. 

[TuscanyTile2]

7 hours ago, bitonti said:

Ryan Jensen would be a great pickup. The Jets should not be in the offensive line market in the draft rd 1 though. Nelson might be BPA but let's get real he's not going top 10 he's going to be like a late first when it's all said and done. If he does go high its the Chance Warmack, Jonathan Cooper pick all over again the guy who is "just a guard" shouldn't go top 10. 

The original poster asked a question about value and guards are not rare in fact every failed tackle can become a guard. A failed guard is not in the league. 

Why is this?  Is it that you need to be more athletic and cover more ground to be a tackle because plays can "go wide", whereas guards have the center and the tackle as their "helper"?  That's just a guess on my part.  I'm definitely no OL expert.

[Drums]

Cool thread because I’m curious about which prospects/FAs would fit our scheme and would like to learn more about the line. Thanks for creating an educational thread and for those that respond. 

[C Mart]

40 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Why is this?  Is it that you need to be more athletic and cover more ground to be a tackle because plays can "go wide", whereas guards have the center and the tackle as their "helper"?  That's just a guess on my part.  I'm definitely no OL expert.

I’ll go with w/Geoff says  

Geoff Schwartz (@geoffschwartz)

1/26/18, 12:39 PM

I'll say this again. If you want to move a OT to OG, they will be successful if their issue at OT is their foot speed. If you can't punch at OT, it's worse at OG

 

[chirorob]

3 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Why is this?  Is it that you need to be more athletic and cover more ground to be a tackle because plays can "go wide", whereas guards have the center and the tackle as their "helper"?  That's just a guess on my part.  I'm definitely no OL expert.

Space.   A tackle has to be big enough to take a bull rush, and quick enough for a speed guy.   Guard is working in a phone booth.   More power, less room to get beat side to side.

[JetsHex]

5 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Why is this?  Is it that you need to be more athletic and cover more ground to be a tackle because plays can "go wide", whereas guards have the center and the tackle as their "helper"?  That's just a guess on my part.  I'm definitely no OL expert.

To add to the correct answer above, Tackles are usually 1v1 against DEs and DEs are easily the best athletes on the field at all times. The combination of speed, power and finesse that these guys have nowadays is insane. If the OT can't match that with his own skill set then your QB is gonna have a bad time. There's a reason why even the most mediocre DE can make 10m+ /year

[Patriot Killa]

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/6/28/11641306/nfl-right-tackle-vs-left-tackle-scheme-salary

There was a time in the NFL when offenses could pretty much count on their opponent's best pass rusher consistently coming at the quarterback from his blind side. Teams responded by putting a premium on left tackles who could hold their own.

Those days have passed. In today's NFL, defensive coordinators play the matchup, putting their best rusher on a team's weakest blocker. And that means right tackles are increasingly called upon to go up against the toughest edge rushers in the league.

 

[rangerous]

here's the funny thing. i seem to recall ray lucas saying good things about wesley johnson because he's able to pull out like mawae could.  not saying johnson is the second coming of mawae or they shouldn't be in the market for a center, but could it be he was a victim of being in the wrong blocking scheme?

[Patriot Killa]

12 minutes ago, rangerous said:

here's the funny thing. i seem to recall ray lucas saying good things about wesley johnson because he's able to pull out like mawae could.  not saying johnson is the second coming of mawae or they shouldn't be in the market for a center, but could it be he was a victim of being in the wrong blocking scheme?

Who knows. Guess we only find out if he winds up a few different ones. You may be onto something though....we ran a o-line that requires maulers and powerful blockers. Johnson played so poorly he didn’t even rank within the 32 starting Centers in the league.

[Philc1]

RT is the second most important spot on the OL because they almost always block the other team’s best pass rusher

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

here's the funny thing. i seem to recall ray lucas saying good things about wesley johnson because he's able to pull out like mawae could.  not saying johnson is the second coming of mawae or they shouldn't be in the market for a center, but could it be he was a victim of being in the wrong blocking scheme?

I think Johnson we can live with.  Can you name the patriots starting center without google?

[Patriot Killa]

7 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

I think Johnson we can live with.  Can you name the patriots starting center without google?

Johnson was disgustingly unproductive this year. His PFF grade was ranked 34th I believe. He just isn’t good enough at pass blocking and often gets thrown around. He also doesn’t have the positional  IQ  to be good.

[Philc1]

5 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Johnson was disgustingly unproductive this year. His PFF grade was ranked 34th I believe. He just isn’t good enough at pass blocking and often gets thrown around. He also doesn’t have the positional  IQ  to be good.

His run blocking is fine.  A lot of McCown’s sacks were on other players in the OL.  Only jets fans think they need an all pro at the Center position 

 

There’s no mangold in this draft or Mawae in free agency anyway

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

His run blocking is fine.  A lot of McCown’s sacks were on other players in the OL.  Only jets fans think they need an all pro at the Center position 

I agree that he is a fine run blocker. But it’s not good enough to make up for terrible pass blocking. Center is a position that pass blocking is more valuable than anything else. Just went back and checked out his grade...actually ranked #36 and his performance rating is in the caragory of Poor.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/wesley-johnson/8808

 

[BCJet]

13 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Johnson was disgustingly unproductive this year. His PFF grade was ranked 34th I believe. He just isn’t good enough at pass blocking and often gets thrown around. He also doesn’t have the positional  IQ  to be good.

Wes Johnson was an abomination last year, and you dont need PFF to tell you that, you simply had to watch the games. He wasnt helped by Winters playing with a bad injury, but we simply cannot have 2 interior lineman who are as light and have the lack of power that Winters and Johnson have next to each other.

Johnson may be ok at pulling, but can anyone here remember a single example of him leading a toss sweep or outside zone run that was successful?  Teams were able to look at the combo of he and winters and simply overpower the interior of the line, and prevent us from even getting a running game started.  He is not a good run blocker nor is he a good pass blocker, he is a replacement level player in every way.   In NO WAY, should wes johnson be the starting center in 2018.  

Teams dont NEEd an all-pro center, but they need one elite line player to allow other lineman to help each other.  It can be a guard, but life gets much easier for the entire line when the center is dominant and can handle a DT alone, and also get to the second level on a zone run.  Pair Ryan Jensen next to a healthy winters and what happens is that Jensen handles his assignment alone and can likely get some sort of block on a LB, winters is freed up to not have to help the center at all and can either give 100% to his assignment or help shell if necessary.  This is in direct contrast to last year when winters was too hurt to help an overmatched johnson resulting in both of them getting knocked backwards and leaving shell on a island, which he wasnt totally ready for.

I think our bigger question is Carpenter. I didnt want to cut him as it opened another hole for us to fill and his contract is reasonable, but he is a poor fit for a zone scheme.  I think we could fill that spot in FA or look to draft someone like james daniels who I mentioned before who could potentially play guard and backup center.  

I think Beachem will do well in this scheme as he too is more athletic then stout and can move well for a LT.

[Patriot Killa]

14 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Wes Johnson was an abomination last year, and you dont need PFF to tell you that, you simply had to watch the games. He wasnt helped by Winters playing with a bad injury, but we simply cannot have 2 interior lineman who are as light and have the lack of power that Winters and Johnson have next to each other.

Johnson may be ok at pulling, but can anyone here remember a single example of him leading a toss sweep or outside zone run that was successful?  Teams were able to look at the combo of he and winters and simply overpower the interior of the line, and prevent us from even getting a running game started.  He is not a good run blocker nor is he a good pass blocker, he is a replacement level player in every way.   In NO WAY, should wes johnson be the starting center in 2018.  

Teams dont NEEd an all-pro center, but they need one elite line player to allow other lineman to help each other.  It can be a guard, but life gets much easier for the entire line when the center is dominant and can handle a DT alone, and also get to the second level on a zone run.  Pair Ryan Jensen next to a healthy winters and what happens is that Jensen handles his assignment alone and can likely get some sort of block on a LB, winters is freed up to not have to help the center at all and can either give 100% to his assignment or help shell if necessary.  This is in direct contrast to last year when winters was too hurt to help an overmatched johnson resulting in both of them getting knocked backwards and leaving shell on a island, which he wasnt totally ready for.

I think our bigger question is Carpenter. I didnt want to cut him as it opened another hole for us to fill and his contract is reasonable, but he is a poor fit for a zone scheme.  I think we could fill that spot in FA or look to draft someone like james daniels who I mentioned before who could potentially play guard and backup center.  

I think Beachem will do well in this scheme as he too is more athletic then stout and can move well for a LT.

This is a great post. I really wouldn’t mind Quinton Nelson, that would be your all pro guard right there. Guy is a anchor. Idk if he fits the scheme though.

[BCJet]

4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

This is a great post. I really wouldn’t mind Quinton Nelson, that would be your all pro guard right there. Guy is a anchor. Idk if he fits the scheme though.

Thanks.

In my opinion nelson is so talented that it wouldnt matter what scheme he played in, he would help a ton.  If we really wanted to double down on Oline and take him at 6 (he did play on the left side at ND), and also signed Jensen, I think our offensive line would go from average to elite overnight, no matter what the scheme is.

The thing is though, that I believe (not positive) is that the zone scheme allows you to use lesser players and still be successful meaning we could draft someone like the iowa guard sean welsh, who has experience in zone scheme in the mid rounds, and have enough success to use the 6th pick on a different position.  Andy Levitre is a good example of someone who was a pro bowler in a zone scheme and signed a big contract with Tennesse that was a bust, and then went to atlanta (same scheme bates will run) and has been a good stater since.

[Patriot Killa]

2 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Thanks.

In my opinion nelson is so talented that it wouldnt matter what scheme he played in, he would help a ton.  If we really wanted to double down on Oline and take him at 6 (he did play on the left side at ND), and also signed Jensen, I think our offensive line would go from average to elite overnight, no matter what the scheme is.

The thing is though, that I believe (not positive) is that the zone scheme allows you to use lesser players and still be successful meaning we could draft someone like the iowa guard sean welsh, who has experience in zone scheme in the mid rounds, and have enough success to use the 6th pick on a different position.  Andy Levitre is a good example of someone who was a pro bowler in a zone scheme and signed a big contract with Tennesse that was a bust, and then went to atlanta (same scheme bates will run) and has been a good stater since.

Here is an extensive write up on Notre Dames Offense and it says they run the zone scheme in a similar way Mike Shanahan and the Broncos did. Pretty good read here.

”

So how does Kelly's offense work?

Let's start with the running game. The most important thing to know is that the Irish are primarily a zone blocking team.

Zone blocking? What's that?

Zone blocking means that each lineman is not assigned a specific defender to block. In a man blocking scheme, each lineman has someone who they are responsible for, no matter where they line up. If the right tackle needs to block an outside linebacker on a run to the outside, that tackle needs to get between that linebacker and the sideline and drive him back, even if he's lined up outside of him, making it a difficult block.

In a zone blocking scheme, each lineman follows a few simple rules. If there's a defender in front of him - the lineman is "covered" - then he blocks him. If there's not, he chips with the guy next to him and then goes up to the second level and looks for a linebacker or safety to block. The goal of the blockers is to simply get leverage and start pushing that guy out of the way. On zone runs, the running back doesn't have a set gap he's trying to run through; he's supposed to just read his blocks and run through any holes that open up.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.onefootdown.com/platform/amp/2012/8/14/3240617/notre-dame-offense-101

[BCJet]

Good find.  Taking a guard at 6 is somewhat of a reach position wise, but if we are talking someone with a legitimate all-pro potential level grade, coming from the scheme we want to run, it might be the smart move to simply put him next to jensen and immediately have a dominant line for the forseeable future.

[Patriot Killa]

7 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Good find.  Taking a guard at 6 is somewhat of a reach position wise, but if we are talking someone with a legitimate all-pro potential level grade, coming from the scheme we want to run, it might be the smart move to simply put him next to jensen and immediately have a dominant line for the forseeable future.

Exactly. They say they want to make the Offensive line a priority this offseason. Well there is the easiest and most sustainable fix I can think of. Maybe even move down a pick or two.. grab some compensation and still get Nelson.

[rangerous]

8 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I think Johnson we can live with.  Can you name the patriots starting center without google?

that's kind of my point.  every season we see teams shuffle their olines and still have success.  the patsies have scarnecchia who seems to work miracles.  other oline coaches can do the same.

[Beerfish]

A smart team will move around their best pass rushers to take advantage of match ups.

Thus you stick Von miller over the RT if the team has a stud LT.

It is far tougher to get help for a tackle than a guard as it require removing a pass/run eligible player from the play (Te has to stay in to block or a rb has to chip)

Holding is far more evident on the outside one on one than in the inside.

A C can get help from a guard, a guard can get help from a C or a tackle, a tackle often gets help from no one (unless as i mentioned above the offense has to take a weapon out of the play)

All olineman are important and a stud run blocking Guard is great but tackles are more likely to save or get your Qb killed.  And this league is all about the QB.

[Beerfish]

9 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I think Johnson we can live with.  Can you name the patriots starting center without google?

Johnson is awful he got QBs killed twice by not knowing the snap count.  It was pure malfeasance by the front office to not upgrade center last year.

[long suffering jets fan]

14 hours ago, rangerous said:

here's the funny thing. i seem to recall ray lucas saying good things about wesley johnson because he's able to pull out like mawae could.  not saying johnson is the second coming of mawae or they shouldn't be in the market for a center, but could it be he was a victim of being in the wrong blocking scheme?

I used to love how Mawae would pull around the left tackle and lead the charge for the RB.  The OL in those days was really effective in run blocking, I don't know what's happened since.

[long suffering jets fan]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Johnson is awful he got QBs killed twice by not knowing the snap count.  It was pure malfeasance by the front office to not upgrade center last year.

After Free Agency and the draft, I thought the Jets knew something we didn't about Wes Johnson and the OL. The Jets paid almost no attention to the OL last year, short of signing Beacham in Free Agency, so I thought they felt comfortable with what they had.  Boy were they (and I) wrong. 

[rangerous]

8 minutes ago, long suffering jets fan said:

I used to love how Mawae would pull around the left tackle and lead the charge for the RB.  The OL in those days was really effective in run blocking, I don't know what's happened since.

yep and in cmart they had a running back who was patient enough to let the holes develop.  not saying the oline is blocking right but forte just doesn't look like a runner who can find holes.  powell shows flashes. mcguire may learn but they really need a better backfield too.

[long suffering jets fan]

1 minute ago, rangerous said:

yep and in cmart they had a running back who was patient enough to let the holes develop.  not saying the oline is blocking right but forte just doesn't look like a runner who can find holes.  powell shows flashes. mcguire may learn but they really need a better backfield too.

Our WR were pretty good blockers too from what I recall. 

[jets rooter]

The real truth is that the jets need a complete make over of the offemsive line.Checkout the current jets offensive line.Ugh