Offensive Line

[Lith]

46 minutes ago, jets rooter said:

It wouldn't surprise me.If the jets drafted 3 offensive linemen in the coming draft.left tackle,center and guard would be a blessing for the jets future.

 In 3 years under Macc, we have drafted 2 OL (Shell and Jarvis Harrison).  I would be shocked if we drafted 3 in one draft.  I would be happy with it, but shocked nonetheless.

[Greenseed4]

I like the idea of signing a FA center like Jensen/Richburg and shoring up the weakest link on the OL...but this draft has tremendous depth at center. I’d rather throw the bank at Norwell. And I mean the BANK. He’s a top-5 player at his position. 

For all the talk at #6, we could target the best LT in the draft and have him drop in our lap. This would send Beachum to RT, and by drafting a Billy Price or James Daniels in rd 2, we have 4 upgraded OL positions. 

I’m all about the Chubb, but I played around with Fanspeak and drafted:

1. Mike McGlinchy, OT

2a. Billy Price, OL

2b. Sony Michel, RB

3. Dallas Goedert, TE

By targeting the best LT, C, RB/TE, TE/RB with the first four picks of the draft, our team gives whoever plays QB the formula for success that earned Denver two super bowls with the Shanahan ZB offense. It featured a mobile zone-blocking OL with HOF LT, Gary Zimmerman; pro bowl LG, Mark Schlereth; pro bowl C, Tom Nalen; and HOF TE & RB, Shannon Sharpe & Terrell Davis. 

Not to say that wide receivers Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey were slouches, but they were benefactors of the ZB system and RB/TE game. 

We could very easily replicate that offense in one off season. 

 

[Greenseed4]

40 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

It certainly wouldn't be the worst decision.  A great OL makes the whole offense better.  It opens holes for RBs.  It gives the QB time to throw.  It gives the WRs more time to get open.  It even helps the defense if your offense can control the clock.

I still hope we draft a QB at 6 if one Macc likes falls to us but there might be value at QB in round 2 (Lauletta/Rudolph).  

And whoever this Norwell guy is, I'm all for the Jets signing him.  

From before this season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-panthers-place-second-round-tender-on-g-norwell

After this season, he was the #3 rated OG in the NFL (out of 64 starters). 

[Jetster]

7 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

From before this season:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-panthers-place-second-round-tender-on-g-norwell

After this season, he was the #3 rated OG in the NFL (out of 64 starters). 

Him & Jensen or Richburg need to be targeted. I want STUDS with all of our top picks. Winters & Beachum are signed, Shells got great pedigree & it take a huge step in 2018.

With our draft picks maybe Bradley Chubb drops to 6? Then top RB (Michel or Jones?), next BPA (WR, CB, TE?). 3rd could be any BPA at that point.

 

[jgb]

On 2/6/2018 at 8:01 AM, rangerous said:

the eagle oline certainly did a great job keeping foles clean.  but foles also threw passes into very small windows and his receivers were catching the ball too.

Foles gets a lot of credit but they're aren't many professional NFL QBs (back-ups or otherwise) that can't deliver darts if given all day. We are just biased because 2 of the few that can't are both on the Jets.

[Jetster]

8 hours ago, jgb said:

Foles gets a lot of credit but they're aren't many professional NFL QBs (back-ups or otherwise) that can't deliver darts if given all day. We are just biased because 2 of the few that can't are both on the Jets.

Petty was such a disappointment, I have no idea why he would still be a Jet in 2018. Bowles knew this from camp, why not replace him? 

[Jetsplayer21]

On 2/10/2018 at 3:57 PM, TuscanyTile2 said:

You make good points.  A great OL could be the way for a team with a less-than-spectacular QB to succeed.  Then again I guess the Cowboys are an example of an attempt of that move.  They've been up and down.

Thanks. My point is the Oline I would guess is by far the “ can’t miss “ guys in draft. Ofcourse qb is a risk, but so is college pass rusher who doesn’t transition well. I am not saying Onlinemen Don’t flop, but i it has to be much less then any other position ? Mac is obsessed with “ pba” but maybe he should start studying a new stat “ less likely to flop”

[DMan77]

17 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Thanks. My point is the Oline I would guess is by far the “ can’t miss “ guys in draft. Ofcourse qb is a risk, but so is college pass rusher who doesn’t transition well. I am not saying Onlinemen Don’t flop, but i it has to be much less then any other position ? Mac is obsessed with “ pba” but maybe he should start studying a new stat “ less likely to flop”

I definitely worry TB and Mac are a little distracted by the flashiness of the players they scout. OL men aren't flashy, as I think we all know. They do a 'boring' but incredibly important job.

I'm hanging my hat right now on the NFL being a copy cat league. I'm hoping Mac sat down and watched the playoffs and SB and at some point said "Huh, look what a good OL can do..."

[DMan77]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2018-nfl-free-agency-nfl-teams-will-be-bidding-on-small-crop-of-offensive-linemen/

Boy I sure hope the Jets invest some of that FA money on a couple of these guys... 

"As for (Ryan) Jensen, the Ravens will likely try to re-sign him, but to do that, they're going to have to outbid multiple teams for his services, and one of those teams is likely going to be the Jets."

 

 

[HessStation]

Here's the truths. 

Beachum is the LT. He's signed, he's good (graded out well per PFF) and he fits Bates scheme.

Shell is the RT. He's cheap, signed, developing and showed some progress, (PFF grade not horrible)

Winters is the RG. Signed and played injured last year, and athletic enough to fit scheme. 

Carpenter is a goner, horrible year, saves cap money and doesn't fit scheme.

The two holes to fill are at LG and C for 2018.

wish list:

Norwell LG, $15MM, tendered, could get franchised, 

Jensen, OC, $10MM

Nelson, LG, ND, 1st round

Price, C/G OSU, 2nd round (you hope)

Ragnow C/G UA, Mid rounds

Cole, C/G UM, mid rounds

 

...would love to get a combination of two players above 

[HessStation]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:13 PM, Jetsplayer21 said:

David DeCastro was just named the best Olineman for 2017. When our line was weak yrs ago I wanted this guy. He was a cant miss anchor they said. Smart too coming out of Stanford. Great scouting report. He is the reason why bell gets all his yards, and he didn’t let up a sack this yr. But a Dminded HC felt a Dlineman with questions about dogging it ( coples) was the better way to go ?. We could have used the hackenberg pick on a good lineman also. But we haven’t draft a Onlineman before 2nd round since 2006. We made the playoffs in 09/10 in large part of the dominant Oline we had. Picking dbrick and mangold at 4 and 34? sounded them with a few good vets. It’s not a hard blueprint to success. But ofcourse we let Dminded coaches only give attention to D

I would like to remind the board who would have taken DeCastro instead of Coples but really, more importantly just wanted to pat myself on the back again.

 

Hess for GM guyz. FoReal.

[Sperm Edwards]

11 minutes ago, HessStation said:

Here's the truths. 

Beachum is the LT. He's signed, he's good (graded out well per PFF) and he fits Bates scheme.

Shell is the RT. He's cheap, signed, developing and showed some progress, (PFF grade not horrible)

Winters is the RG. Signed and played injured last year, and athletic enough to fit scheme. 

Carpenter is a goner, horrible year, saves cap money and doesn't fit scheme.

The two holes to fill are at LG and C for 2018.

wish list:

Norwell LG, $15MM, tendered, could get franchised, 

Jensen, OC, $10MM

Nelson, LG, ND, 1st round

Price, C/G OSU, 2nd round (you hope)

Ragnow C/G UA, Mid rounds

Cole, C/G UM, mid rounds

 

...would love to get a combination of two players above 

Beachum isn't good; it's just that there are several tackles who are even worse (Shell among them), he's guaranteed $4m this year, and his full salary is only $4m above that. Shell's 2 best attributes are that he's young and cheap. Neither reason is adequate enough to stay away from replacements. 

As far as their PFF grades, first off those grades are often suspect. Second of all they have Beachum as the #35 tackle (#18 pass blocking, #71 run blocking). That's about the upside one should hope for in an $8m FA LT who was among the league's very worst a year earlier. They have Shell at #44 (#38 pass blocking, #64 run blocking).

Individually they're about average to below average, which means while keeping 1 of them as the weakest link might not be so terrible, having this pair of bookends thats horrid at run blocking and meh or below average at pass blocking? No, you can't bring back both and high picks and gobs of cap space suggests we shouldn't have to. Then throw in Beachum really only had 1 good year in his career (4 seasons ago, before he blew out his knee in 2015). 

The Jets should ideally be looking at making upgrades to both positions. At a minimum, one of them should be upgraded this year so we aren't boxed into an emergency to replace both next year if we get similar production from one and a serious injury to the other. Best would be upgrading LT and letting those 2 duke it out for the RT job (which would probably go to Beachum for as long as he's healthy, unless Shell makes some massive strides). Or just as ok, draft a LT who may need to spend his rookie year on the right side (as they often do). Each should also have trade value.

[HessStation]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Beachum isn't good; it's just that there are several tackles who are even worse (Shell among them), he's guaranteed $4m this year, and his full salary is only $4m above that. Shell's 2 best attributes are that he's young and cheap. Neither reason is adequate enough to stay away from replacements. 

As far as their PFF grades, first off those grades are often suspect. Second of all they have Beachum as the #35 tackle (#18 pass blocking, #71 run blocking). That's about the upside one should hope for in an $8m FA LT who was among the league's very worst a year earlier. They have Shell at #44 (#38 pass blocking, #64 run blocking).

Individually they're about average to below average, which means while keeping 1 of them as the weakest link might not be so terrible, having this pair of bookends thats horrid at run blocking and meh or below average at pass blocking? No, you can't bring back both and high picks and gobs of cap space suggests we shouldn't have to. Then throw in Beachum really only had 1 good year in his career (4 seasons ago, before he blew out his knee in 2015). 

The Jets should ideally be looking at making upgrades to both positions. At a minimum, one of them should be upgraded this year so we aren't boxed into an emergency to replace both next year if we get similar production from one and a serious injury to the other. Best would be upgrading LT and letting those 2 duke it out for the RT job (which would probably go to Beachum for as long as he's healthy, unless Shell makes some massive strides). Or just as ok, draft a LT who may need to spend his rookie year on the right side (as they often do). Each should also have trade value.

Id agree on upgrades if there wasn't already so many other massive holes, LG and OC being two of them on the OL alone. Just trying to be realistic given the current roster.

plus it's a better draft and FA for interior lineman 

[Sperm Edwards]

21 minutes ago, HessStation said:

Id agree on upgrades if there wasn't already so many other massive holes, LG and OC being two of them on the OL alone. Just trying to be realistic given the current roster.

Thing is, one of the reasons we have so much cap space is because the team hasn't adequately plugged these holes. Let's presume the Jets' top pick won't be a LT (and it'd better not be a ****ing guard when there are starting guards available every single offseason). It'll almost assuredly be a QB if they don't land Cousins; if they do sign Cousins then most likely it'll be an edge rusher or the RB, with a possibility of trading down with a QB-needy team. 

Center = the most obvious hole. The problem is it's such a big hole I don't think he'll wait to the draft to address it. It'd basically force him to draft for need at the top of round 2 whether the true value is there or not (or trade back into the bottom of round 1) when there surely will be steals available at higher-value positions after all those QBs get drafted. That steal may be a center, where we get that perfect marriage of need + value + instant starter (like we did with Mangold), but it'll be too risky to pray for that kind of luck in rounds 3 or later. So figure a FA signing or trade for a sure thing starter, with an outside possibility of a stopgap veteran he hopes to upgrade from during the draft. 

RG = They aren't replacing Winters this year, nor are they likely burning a pick on his future replacement. They just aren't. His $7m salary is fully guaranteed this year so that's that.

LT/RT = I'd say it's unlikely both tackles are replaced, though one of them should be upgraded at a minimum (as I outlined above).

So, so far you're looking at signing/drafting 2 linemen (hardly unheard of), with a possibility of 3 if they sign a C and T and the draft presents with value they just can't pass on at the other T position.

LG = that just leaves this as the tossup. Carpenter's $4.7m salary, and previous/recent high level of play, says (to me) he is lowest priority. They should ideally replace him, and will/should look to do so in March, but they aren't desperate to do so and can wait for the right opportunity, whether through FA, trade, or through the draft. If they do sign/draft 2 tackles, then he returns; there's no way 4/5 of the line is getting turned over in 1 offseason. Certainly not after he inked 4 FA contracts on the OL just last year (Beachum, Johnson, Winters, Ijalana). That is, unless a future LT spends his rookie year at LG, but that'd get sorted out over the summer.

 

C and one T position should  be sure things to bring in new names in 2018. Then on top of that, also upgrade either the other T position or LG, whichever presents itself.

[DMan77]

37 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 At a minimum, one of them should be upgraded this year so we aren't boxed into an emergency to replace both next year if we get similar production from one and a serious injury to the other. Best would be upgrading LT and letting those 2 duke it out for the RT job (which would probably go to Beachum for as long as he's healthy, unless Shell makes some massive strides). Or just as ok, draft a LT who may need to spend his rookie year on the right side (as they often do). Each should also have trade value.

 

That's my biggest fear right there... I'm really nervous they won't address the line with anything more than maybe a late round pick, and next season we'll be looking at having to redo the entire thing... Maybe we find a QB and some offensive skill players; but they go nowhere because they end up playing behind one of the worst lines in the league... What a development killer.

It has to be a high priority this year.

There might not be the pieces out there to just create a pro-bowl caliber OL in one offseason, but they can make upgrades. That much I am sure about. 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

18 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

 

That's my biggest fear right there... I'm really nervous they won't address the line with anything more than maybe a late round pick, and next season we'll be looking at having to redo the entire thing... Maybe we find a QB and some offensive skill players; but they go nowhere because they end up playing behind one of the worst lines in the league... What a development killer.

It has to be a high priority this year.

There might not be the pieces out there to just create a pro-bowl caliber OL in one offseason, but they can make upgrades. That much I am sure about. 

 

It's as though it's lost on him that the last 2 times the Jets were serious contenders wasn't just on the backs of a top defense alone; it was also behind a rock-solid (not to mention healthy) OL that hid so many other inadequacies on that side of the ball. 

A huge part of the problem with PFF's OL ratings are the blind spots resulting from circular logic. When you have a QB who gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds per attempt, like McCown in 2017, these linemen aren't typically asked to hold their blocks for as long as other linemen. Also when you have one or more that are SO bad (e.g. Johnson) their own assignments aren't the ones that get to the QB first. Even with those factors essentially padding their pass block rankings, they still were merely average to below average in that dept. That ranking makes them seem a lot better than they are.

Meanwhile when McCown did hold the ball longer, every Jets fan's recollection is him getting clobbered, along with fan complaints that he's holding the ball too long. Yet these same fans say nothing of other QBs picking apart defenses when their OL affords them more chances to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's as though it's lost on him that the last 2 times the Jets were serious contenders wasn't just on the backs of a top defense alone; it was also behind a rock-solid (not to mention healthy) OL that hid so many other inadequacies on that side of the ball. 

A huge part of the problem with PFF's OL ratings are the blind spots resulting from circular logic. When you have a QB who gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds per attempt, like McCown in 2017, these linemen aren't typically asked to hold their blocks for as long as other linemen. Also when you have one or more that are SO bad (e.g. Johnson) their own assignments aren't the ones that get to the QB first. Even with those factors essentially padding their pass block rankings, they still were merely average to below average in that dept. That ranking makes them seem a lot better than they are.

Meanwhile when McCown did hold the ball longer, every Jets fan's recollection is him getting clobbered, along with fan complaints that he's holding the ball too long. Yet these same fans say nothing of other QBs picking apart defenses when their OL affords them more chances to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds.

The Ol was very good and a huge reason why we made those runs, unfortunately they weren't good enough to hide Brett favre in 2008 or Thomas Jones late 2009/LT most of 2010 and people also forget we beat NE in that playoff game w/ Wayne Hunter as our RT.

Those Ols were built from the draft and FA.  we got 2 cornerstones in 2006, they regressed in 2007 w/ nothing around them then we spent big in 2008 and had a top OL. we don't have the building blocks but that doesn't mean they can't revamp this Ol and make it a good one in one offseason. I am looking forward to see what we do here, we all want a QB for the next decade+ but it's been proven you don't need elite Qbs to win but it's really hard to win w/o a good OL.  I think the most important position group we need to upgrade is the OL.

[HessStation]

41 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Thing is, one of the reasons we have so much cap space is because the team hasn't adequately plugged these holes. Let's presume the Jets' top pick won't be a LT (and it'd better not be a ****ing guard when there are starting guards available every single offseason). It'll almost assuredly be a QB if they don't land Cousins; if they do sign Cousins then most likely it'll be an edge rusher or the RB, with a possibility of trading down with a QB-needy team. 

Center = the most obvious hole. The problem is it's such a big hole I don't think he'll wait to the draft to address it. It'd basically force him to draft for need at the top of round 2 whether the true value is there or not (or trade back into the bottom of round 1) when there surely will be steals available at higher-value positions after all those QBs get drafted. That steal may be a center, where we get that perfect marriage of need + value + instant starter (like we did with Mangold), but it'll be too risky to pray for that kind of luck in rounds 3 or later. So figure a FA signing or trade for a sure thing starter, with an outside possibility of a stopgap veteran he hopes to upgrade from during the draft. 

RG = They aren't replacing Winters this year, nor are they likely burning a pick on his future replacement. They just aren't. His $7m salary is fully guaranteed this year so that's that.

LT/RT = I'd say it's unlikely both tackles are replaced, though one of them should be upgraded at a minimum (as I outlined above).

So, so far you're looking at signing/drafting 2 linemen (hardly unheard of), with a possibility of 3 if they sign a C and T and the draft presents with value they just can't pass on at the other T position.

LG = that just leaves this as the tossup. Carpenter's $4.7m salary, and previous/recent high level of play, says (to me) he is lowest priority. They should ideally replace him, and will/should look to do so in March, but they aren't desperate to do so and can wait for the right opportunity, whether through FA, trade, or through the draft. If they do sign/draft 2 tackles, then he returns; there's no way 4/5 of the line is getting turned over in 1 offseason. Certainly not after he inked 4 FA contracts on the OL just last year (Beachum, Johnson, Winters, Ijalana). That is, unless a future LT spends his rookie year at LG, but that'd get sorted out over the summer.

 

C and one T position should  be sure things to bring in new names in 2018. Then on top of that, also upgrade either the other T position or LG, whichever presents itself.

I think we just disagree between LG and OT.

the prized/impact pieces FA and draft are the guards/interior more than tackles imo...Norwell, Nelson, Price. 

I would rather an all pro LG to replace Carpenter, who is done, vs upgrading from average to a little better and/or more risk. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The Ol was very good and a huge reason why we made those runs, unfortunately they weren't good enough to hide Brett favre in 2008 or Thomas Jones late 2009/LT most of 2010 and people also forget we beat NE in that playoff game w/ Wayne Hunter as our RT.

Those Ols were built from the draft and FA.  we got 2 cornerstones in 2006, they regressed in 2007 w/ nothing around them then we spent big in 2008 and had a top OL. we don't have the building blocks but that doesn't mean they can't revamp this Ol and make it a good one in one offseason. I am looking forward to see what we do here, we all want a QB for the next decade+ but it's been proven you don't need elite Qbs to win but it's really hard to win w/o a good OL.  I think the most important position group we need to upgrade is the OL.

The most important position group we need to upgrade is QB. OL is a distant second specifically because a team can pick and choose when to upgrade the OL, almost on demand. Not so with QB, which requires a marriage of timing + availability + a good degree of luck.

Not requiring an elite QB isn't the same as saying we could just toss anyone out there and they'll perform. It may very well take the #6 pick just to get a good enough QB, even if he isn't elite. 

Regardless, there's no reason for addressing these 2 groups to be mutually exclusive unless the GM is brain dead. We have high enough picks and enough cap room to seriously address them both in this same offseason, with an additional piece or two on the OL to upgrade further in the following season (as needed after reassessing a year from now). 

[DMan77]

9 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The Ol was very good and a huge reason why we made those runs, unfortunately they weren't good enough to hide Brett favre in 2008 or Thomas Jones late 2009/LT most of 2010 and people also forget we beat NE in that playoff game w/ Wayne Hunter as our RT.

Those Ols were built from the draft and FA.  we got 2 cornerstones in 2006, they regressed in 2007 w/ nothing around them then we spent big in 2008 and had a top OL. we don't have the building blocks but that doesn't mean they can't revamp this Ol and make it a good one in one offseason. I am looking forward to see what we do here, we all want a QB for the next decade+ but it's been proven you don't need elite Qbs to win but it's really hard to win w/o a good OL.  I think the most important position group we need to upgrade is the OL.

Agreed! I've been trying to shout it from the roof tops for a while now... I don't care how skilled and flashy and loud your players are on offense... You're going no where without a line.

 

 

[kelly]

On 2/5/2018 at 6:39 PM, Larz said:

If they sign cousins I would love Nelson at 6, if he is still available 

Nelson or..

[nyjunc]

14 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The most important position group we need to upgrade is QB. OL is a distant second specifically because a team can pick and choose when to upgrade the OL, almost on demand. Not so with QB, which requires a marriage of timing + availability + a good degree of luck.

Not requiring an elite QB isn't the same as saying we could just toss anyone out there and they'll perform. It may very well take the #6 pick just to get a good enough QB, even if he isn't elite. 

Regardless, there's no reason for addressing these 2 groups to be mutually exclusive unless the GM is brain dead. We have high enough picks and enough cap room to seriously address them both in this same offseason, with an additional piece or two on the OL to upgrade further in the following season (as needed after reassessing a year from now). 

I want a QB to start for us for the next decade plus but it's easier to find OL than QBs.  I don't want us to simply take a QB b/c we have to.  if they take a QB at 6 this has to work or this regime will be gone w/in 2 years.  If the guys they are convinced of are gone by the time we pick we shouldn't just take a guy to take a guy b/c that's what the fans want.  This offseason is the biggest one we've had since the Idzik disaster w/ the million picks he had, that offseason set us back many years and this one can as well.  Regardless of who we pick it has to be right this time. 

[ZachEY]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:05 PM, HessStation said:

For reference...

Eagles OL PFF grade:

Vaitai 39.7 (But Peters 86.4)

Wisniewski 75.4

Kelce 91.5

Brooks 88

Johnson 85.3

 

Jets OL PFF grade:

Beachum 72.7

Carpenter 41.4

Johnson 31.3

Winters 36.9 

Shell 65.3

 

Redskins OL PFF grade:

Williams 82.1 

Kouandjio 49 

Roullier 56.6

Scherff 83.2

Moses 71.4

 

Macc was a genius for signing Winters to a contract he could get away from after two years... or something like that.

[ZachEY]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:46 PM, bitonti said:

the biggest problem on the OL is center. if they sign a Ryan Jensen type it instantly becomes a better group. Not an elite group but better. There's no real OL value at 6 by the way. Quenton Nelson is a guard and those guys don't go 6. 

There's no real S value at 6 by the way.  Jamal Adams is a SS and those guys don't go at 6.

[DMan77]

24 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Macc was a genius for signing Winters to a contract he could get away from after two years... or something like that.

I really thought Winters was going to work out! I liked his toughness and his effort... Clearly I may have been mistaken on that one... Of course I'm no GM so eh.

[jgb]

On 2/11/2018 at 10:09 PM, Jetster said:

Petty was such a disappointment, I have no idea why he would still be a Jet in 2018. Bowles knew this from camp, why not replace him? 

He will have a long career as a 3rd stringer.

[BigO]

On 2/5/2018 at 6:19 PM, DMan77 said:

Foles is a pretty good QB. Wentz looks good too... But neither of them come close to putting up the numbers they put up without that offensive line of the Eagles. Both guys had all the time in the world back there. Paired with some athletic WRs, they made it look easy.

That's what a good line can do. It elevates your QB from a 7 to a 9.

I know we all want a Manning/Brady/Rodgers type QB. Of course we do. But with a focus on greatly improving the offensive line you don't need one of those guys to win. I think this year really proved that. Sure, someone like McCown may not be good enough, but I think with a strong line you don't have to hope to find a hall of fame QB to win. The odds are better to find someone on the next tier or two, and give him all the protection you can. 

I really hope to see the Jets work hard to revamp things there in the next 80 days or so. 

 

Undubededdly. Our OL SUCKS. None of them are mainstays. A bunch of jags which are average to mediocre and are better served to provide depth than start for the most part.  I think Beecham and Winters still are under contract for another year. That however doesn’t prevent Mac from drafting their replacement this coming draft.  Carpenter and Johnson I believe can be cut or released. And Shell at RT is still a work in progress and an upgrade there would be wise. In other words, this entire OL should get a facelift over the next 2 years. A center and RT should immediately be prioritized. 

[HessStation]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The most important position group we need to upgrade is QB. OL is a distant second specifically because a team can pick and choose when to upgrade the OL, almost on demand. Not so with QB, which requires a marriage of timing + availability + a good degree of luck.

Not requiring an elite QB isn't the same as saying we could just toss anyone out there and they'll perform. It may very well take the #6 pick just to get a good enough QB, even if he isn't elite. 

Regardless, there's no reason for addressing these 2 groups to be mutually exclusive unless the GM is brain dead. We have high enough picks and enough cap room to seriously address them both in this same offseason, with an additional piece or two on the OL to upgrade further in the following season (as needed after reassessing a year from now). 

Except as of today via FA and the draft there is more available, less risky upgrades w interior lineman (Norwell, Nelson, Price) than OT.

[chirorob]

On 2/6/2018 at 6:00 PM, Jetsplayer21 said:

I thought he may have. Did we trade up a few spots for him from our early second ? I thought debrick was a bit of a reach at 4. But I always believed a Olineman is by far the lowest risk of a bust. And given our early first round busts I understood playing it safe. Maybe now Bowles keeps his mouth shut a little more, but can you imagine last yr or yr before picking two Olineman in first round ? Bowles would literally have to be restrained from attacking Mac. He should not even be in the draft room this yr

Mangold was the pick we got for Abe.

If you look at the rest of the top 10, Brick was a good choice.  The only other one worth it was Haloti Ngata.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, HessStation said:

I think we just disagree between LG and OT.

the prized/impact pieces FA and draft are the guards/interior more than tackles imo...Norwell, Nelson, Price. 

I would rather an all pro LG to replace Carpenter, who is done, vs upgrading from average to a little better and/or more risk. 

So, Carpenter is now done like Beachum was done a year earlier? 

Carpenter was still just 28 years old last season. He looked fat more than he looked done. Plus I don't know the full impact that playing next to a useless sack of crap like Johnson (and a below average LT like Beachum on the other side). PFFs rankings were kind to them all because one of them so often allowed a breakdown in protection early, which shielded the others from being the culprit on that play.

We just disagree, then.

I don't think saying LT being higher priority than G or C therefore means I think the latter positions are unimportant. 

Center he's going to have to fill in FA (or via trade) to some extent; he's not going to go into the draft with the position completely unaddressed. 

IMO guards are not impact pieces in any draft. Not anywhere near #6 overall anyway, no matter what asinine rankings come out. Every other year we hear about this or that guard prospect that they're already anointing as a future HOFer. A single elite guard isn't required: 3 good/reliable interior linemen are required; HOF-great ones are not. Save the high picks for positions we can't simply get whenever we want via FA. And in FA, even the best ones available in any given season don't typically cripple a team's cap (which was my - and many others' - objections with his 1st round picks). 

Teams - smart teams, anyway - jump on those very pieces they can't simply always get on demand (or if they're pretty much stacked and those lower-demand positions are simply the last remaining pieces). Or positions that are so expensive it frees up such a tremendous amount of cap room to spread around elsewhere (e.g. drafting a $4m CB instead of spending upwards of $14-17m for a FA "#1" CB). That lack of supply is what creates value in the form of higher compensation and that, in turn, causes these positions to become higher picks.

Individual exceptions notwithstanding, as a general rule, RTs are the least valuable, followed closely by C, followed by the 2 guards, followed by LT. Or often there's one more-dominant guard on the team and the lesser-one's importance swaps with C and/or RT.

I'm 100% on board with replacing Carpenter, but it isn't the priority that center is (simply because we have no one), and not at LT because it's so much harder to find an upgrade and you pounce on it when you can get it rather than trying to time it. Hell, look how long we held onto Ferguson even after he was half the player he once was. 

[shuler82]

I think the OL under performed last year because of Wesley Johnson. I have a hard time believing Carpenter’s play fell off that big of a cliff, and it had a lot to do with the sh*tty C next to him. Factor in Winters playing hurt all year, I think we need to target a C in FA or early in the draft. If we can snag a top FA G or T with our cap space I’m not against it, but I think this team has bigger holes to fill.

[BigO]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The most important position group we need to upgrade is QB. OL is a distant second specifically because a team can pick and choose when to upgrade the OL, almost on demand. Not so with QB, which requires a marriage of timing + availability + a good degree of luck.

Not requiring an elite QB isn't the same as saying we could just toss anyone out there and they'll perform. It may very well take the #6 pick just to get a good enough QB, even if he isn't elite. 

Regardless, there's no reason for addressing these 2 groups to be mutually exclusive unless the GM is brain dead. We have high enough picks and enough cap room to seriously address them both in this same offseason, with an additional piece or two on the OL to upgrade further in the following season (as needed after reassessing a year from now). 

We can get an elite QB or prospect AND upgrade the OL. Both need to get done in 2018. Or there will be another Petty Pancake highlight. So much for the elite QB or prospect. 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

44 minutes ago, HessStation said:

Except as of today via FA and the draft there is more available, less risky upgrades w interior lineman (Norwell, Nelson, Price) than OT.

There always are. That's nothing unique to this season, and it's why there are always guard opportunities but only rarely are there "less risky" LTs available. 

As I said a couple of posts above, you take those positions when you can get them, and don't put off the opportunity because, "Welllllll, we don't really have an emergency right now because we still have Beachum with half his $8m salary guaranteed and PFF says he was a top 40 tackle." If they can draft a LT - even if it means moving up from their 2nd rounder to the mid-20s - then get him. Beats sitting on our pick and waiting for the next guard to fall to us when adequate starting guards can be found any/every offseason.

Personally I think the LT position is overvalued a bit, but it's the difficulty in finding suitable replacements - precisely because of that demand - that makes it more important to find one when you can. A good LT is important; however finding the next Joe Thomas is rarely (if ever) required.
The problem is it isn't so easy to find a merely good one (which Beachum isn't); the overwhelming majority of the starting LTs - not counting those bumped into starting only due to starters' injuries - were 1st round picks IIRC. Like 70% of them.

[HessStation]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So, Carpenter is now done like Beachum was done a year earlier? 

Carpenter was still just 28 years old last season. He looked fat more than he looked done. Plus I don't know the full impact that playing next to a useless sack of crap like Johnson (and a below average LT like Beachum on the other side). PFFs rankings were kind to them all because one of them so often allowed a breakdown in protection early, which shielded the others from being the culprit on that play.

We just disagree, then.

I don't think saying LT being higher priority than G or C therefore means I think the latter positions are unimportant. 

Center he's going to have to fill in FA (or via trade) to some extent; he's not going to go into the draft with the position completely unaddressed. 

IMO guards are not impact pieces in any draft. Not anywhere near #6 overall anyway, no matter what asinine rankings come out. Every other year we hear about this or that guard prospect that they're already anointing as a future HOFer. A single elite guard isn't required: 3 good/reliable interior linemen are required; HOF-great ones are not. Save the high picks for positions we can't simply get whenever we want via FA. And in FA, even the best ones available in any given season don't typically cripple a team's cap (which was my - and many others' - objections with his 1st round picks). 

Teams - smart teams, anyway - jump on those very pieces they can't simply always get on demand (or if they're pretty much stacked and those lower-demand positions are simply the last remaining pieces). Or positions that are so expensive it frees up such a tremendous amount of cap room to spread around elsewhere (e.g. drafting a $4m CB instead of spending upwards of $14-17m for a FA "#1" CB). That lack of supply is what creates value in the form of higher compensation and that, in turn, causes these positions to become higher picks.

Individual exceptions notwithstanding, as a general rule, RTs are the least valuable, followed closely by C, followed by the 2 guards, followed by LT. Or often there's one more-dominant guard on the team and the lesser-one's importance swaps with C and/or RT.

I'm 100% on board with replacing Carpenter, but it isn't the priority that center is (simply because we have no one), and not at LT because it's so much harder to find an upgrade and you pounce on it when you can get it rather than trying to time it. Hell, look how long we held onto Ferguson even after he was half the player he once was. 

I could be too hung up on PFF grades but it's very hard to evaluate OL individually on your own. I just sorta think schemes have developed and that blind side LT isn't as predominantly more important as it once was. Just looking at this year's SB champs, their biggest and only weakness was LT w Peters out. You can go down the list of top teams and they all had really good G/interior play.

As far as placing additional need to replace Carpenter after C, is partly due to thinking Bates will install more zone blocking. That and I believe cutting Carpenter adds more cap space than cutting Beachum...that and again, I'm partially considering their 2017 advanced stats grades. Also considering value and risk to potential available replacements. 

[HessStation]

22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There always are. That's nothing unique to this season, and it's why there are always guard opportunities but only rarely are there "less risky" LTs available. 

As I said a couple of posts above, you take those positions when you can get them, and don't put off the opportunity because, "Welllllll, we don't really have an emergency right now because we still have Beachum with half his $8m salary guaranteed and PFF says he was a top 40 tackle." If they can draft a LT - even if it means moving up from their 2nd rounder to the mid-20s - then get him. Beats sitting on our pick and waiting for the next guard to fall to us when adequate starting guards can be found any/every offseason.

Personally I think the LT position is overvalued a bit, but it's the difficulty in finding suitable replacements - precisely because of that demand - that makes it more important to find one when you can. A good LT is important; however finding the next Joe Thomas is rarely (if ever) required.
The problem is it isn't so easy to find a merely good one (which Beachum isn't); the overwhelming majority of the starting LTs - not counting those bumped into starting only due to starters' injuries - were 1st round picks IIRC. Like 70% of them.

If the question is whether I'd take a joe Thomas or Steve Hutchinson clone I'll take Thomas. I agree LT is a more valuable position but I think I'm just weighing in more of a risk/reward factor. I'm more sure of a Nelson or Price vs. McClinchey or Brown. That evens up the evaluation more or less. There's less risk of busts. There's no Orlando Pace's in this draft which is why I'd prefer Nelson,