Jump to content

Josh Allen Hype Train Rolls on With Mayock’s QB Rankings


JetNation

Recommended Posts

Look I don't profess to be an expert on the game. I did play high school ball but back then we wore leather helmets and used cardboard cups. Played in college too. Hell they even let us throw the ball once in awhile. The thing is I've watched the Titans/Jets flame out so many times when it comes to recognizing and drafting talent at the QB position I have a little experience when it comes to guys "who have all the tools" and are "the prototype NFL QB" to know fools gold when I see it. I've watched the so-called draft guru's gush over guys who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a fookin' boat. I've seen guys on these boards be wrong about QB's in the past AND be right about them as well. The point is for all our experience and knowledge(this goes for the draft experts too) until we see these guys in game action on the NFL level(NOT PRE-SEASON) all it is is speculation.

Case in point is Deshaun Watson. I loved this guy coming out of college. Some fool at the combine wrote that article about the 46mph ball and a lot of guys ran with it. Although it was a small sample size Watson not only was pretty good but excelled at the NFL level. Talent is one thing but if you don't have the stones to back it up you're Ryan Leaf. That's one of the reasons why I love Mayfield in this draft. The guy has FACED ADVERSITY and came through it with flying colors. Any guy who walks on at not one but TWO major programs, wins the Heisman and comes close to winning a National Championship is worth a pick in my book. Too simply dismiss him because he is not tall enough or planted a flag at mid-field or grabbed his crotch on the sidelines is short-sighted and quite frankly kind of stupid. You call him a malcontent, I call him a NY'er. If he is there DRAFT THE GUY. Even if he flames out at least it will be more entertaining than the alternative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 229
  • Created
  • Last Reply

FWIW - at no point in Josh Allen's career did he ever have more run attempts than pass completions.  Whereas, Lamar Jackson only had more pass completions than rushes his Senior year but had more rush attempts than pass completions overall in college.  Both never cracked 60% completion in a season.

Statistically the odds of becoming a franchise QB are low for both.  However, Jackson's odds are even lower.  Nobody has ever done what he's attempting to do.  He's a special athlete but not sure he's the guy to do it.  He can looks atrocious at times attempting to pass.

Jackson - 135/163, 230/260, 252/235 = 619 completions, 655 rush attempts. 

Allen - 209/142, 152/92 = 365 completions, 237 rush attempts. 

I wouldnt touch either in the 1st round personally. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Crusher said:

If I had to choose between that and a discussion of racism on the forum then I agree. **** you. 

How come when I say **** You its x'ed out but when a Mod sez it you can see it? Double standard and borderline racist. I feel marginalized and unsafe. I will now retreat to my safe space and drink my mothers milk while I examine my participation trophies and 8th place ribbons for comfort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

How come when I say **** You its x'ed out but when a Mod sez it you can see it? Double standard and borderline racist. I feel marginalized and unsafe. I will now retreat to my safe space and drink my mothers milk while I examine my participation trophies and 8th place ribbons for comfort.

I feel hungry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Here is how race is playing into this. 

1. Most people who work in player personnel are dumb as ****. Honestly. ******* stupid as sh*t, and lazy besides. Look at the people who have those jobs. Better yet, look at the people who rise to the top of that profession. They’re pudgy meatheads who make awful decisions. Consider that Charlie Casserly and Mike Lombardi are considered deans of the craft. What would Mike Maccagnan do for a job if he wasn’t in the NFL?

 

2. Because these men are (1) Dumb and (2) Lazy, most of their professional development revolves around looking at other teams that win and simply copying what those teams did to get to that point, including which type of player was successful for that particular team. 

 

3. These scouts see 6’4” Caucasian quarterbacks winning Super Bowls.

 

4. Now, these lazy idiots don’t have to be “racist” in the sense that they’d express hostility toward non-whites, but they will, as a function of their job and as a result of their idiocy, discount QB prospects who are not (1) 6’4” and (2) Caucasian. 

 

And that’s why people draft Christian Hackenberg.

Well if you take away the not caucasian part this is the exact reason guys are discounting Baker Mayfield.

Do I believe there is a stigma concerning Black QB's? Yes. I do believe it is becoming less of a factor with the play of the guys who are in the league at this point. I think its bullsh*t to judge a guy based on the color of his skin. If the guy can do the job then have at it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, JiF said:

FWIW - at no point in Josh Allen's career did he ever have more run attempts than pass completions.  Whereas, Lamar Jackson only had more pass completions than rushes his Senior year but had more rush attempts than pass completions overall in college.  Both never cracked 60% completion in a season.

Statistically the odds of becoming a franchise QB are low for both.  However, Jackson's odds are even lower.  Nobody has ever done what he's attempting to do.  He's a special athlete but not sure he's the guy to do it.  He can looks atrocious at times attempting to pass.

Jackson - 135/163, 230/260, 252/235 = 619 completions, 655 rush attempts. 

Allen - 209/142, 152/92 = 365 completions, 237 rush attempts. 

I wouldnt touch either in the 1st round personally. 

 

If Crush didn’t warn us, I’d call you a racist Neocon, but he did, so, I won’t.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JiF said:

FWIW - at no point in Josh Allen's career did he ever have more run attempts than pass completions.  Whereas, Lamar Jackson only had more pass completions than rushes his Senior year but had more rush attempts than pass completions overall in college.  Both never cracked 60% completion in a season.

Statistically the odds of becoming a franchise QB are low for both.  However, Jackson's odds are even lower.  Nobody has ever done what he's attempting to do.  He's a special athlete but not sure he's the guy to do it.  He can looks atrocious at times attempting to pass.

Jackson - 135/163, 230/260, 252/235 = 619 completions, 655 rush attempts. 

Allen - 209/142, 152/92 = 365 completions, 237 rush attempts. 

I wouldnt touch either in the 1st round personally. 

 

not sure why you’re discounting rush attempts for jackson like you don’t want this kid to run. also when you adjust for completion % (drops, catchable balls) he ranks right with all the other top prospects, his footwork is also clean even facing pressure. if you want to look at pocket presence then watch this 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cant wait said:

not sure why you’re discounting rush attempts for jackson like you don’t want this kid to run. also when you adjust for completion % (drops, catchable balls) he ranks right with all the other top prospects, his footwork is also clean even facing pressure. if you want to look at pocket presence then watch this 

 

Watching this right now; good find. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

And you're opposed to drafting Lamar Jackson even if he's Vick minus the dogfighting and attitude?  

Vick's play-style always got him hurt and his reliance on it held him back in developing into a true NFL pocket passer. 

Lamar isn't remotely close to the talent that Vick was.  That's not even taking into account that the "fit" here is not a good one.

Lamar intrigues me, but I wouldn't go for him any earlier than late 1st-early 2nd round.  The hill he has to climb is larger than Vick's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Vick's play-style always got him hurt and his reliance on it held him back in developing into a true NFL pocket passer. 

Lamar isn't remotely close to the talent that Vick was.  That's not even taking into account that the "fit" here is not a good one.

Lamar intrigues me, but I wouldn't go for him any earlier than late 1st-early 2nd round.  The hill he has to climb is larger than Vick's.

Vick was faster and more elusive than Jackson.  That said the right coaching staff and system could make Jackson successful in the nfl but I doubt that is us

 

Darnold, Rosen and Rudolph  have the best chance of being good in NY but we have no shot at either first 2 without trading up and we will pass on Rudolph 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, cant wait said:

not sure why you’re discounting rush attempts for jackson like you don’t want this kid to run. also when you adjust for completion % (drops, catchable balls) he ranks right with all the other top prospects, his footwork is also clean even facing pressure. if you want to look at pocket presence then watch this 

 

I’m not discounting them, I’m pointing out that no QB in the modern era has transitioned from a run first QB to a successful pro QB.  And Jackson moved the ball more with his legs than his arm. 

And fwiw that breakdown was not good and clearly biased.  The very first play he calls that throw accurate...it’s was a terrible ball and if the WR doesn’t make the catch it’s a pick 6, so it was hard to take that serious. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest difference between Jackson and Vick has nothing to do with skills. Jackson ran a pretty complex O at Louisville. He's got a high football IQ and stays out of trouble. I really believe he is going to be a very good pro QB if matched with a good coach because the kid is very coachable and willing to put in the work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Vick vs. Jackson debate is an interesting one.  Vick was the unquestioned consensus #1 overall pick and was the very definition of a run first QB.  Nobody can put their finger on Jackson and while he too was a run first QB, he certainly threw the ball a lot more than Vick in college.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Jackson is ahead of Vick from gasping the NFL passing game aspect but is Jackson one of those generational athletes like Vick who defy odds?  I'm not sure.  Outside of the 2 year stretch in Philly, Vick was a terrible passer but a DC's nightmare because of what he could do with his feet. However, Vick had that ability to make sh*t happen when most needed and Jackson really doesnt.  Mike Vick led a terrible team to the National Championship basically single-handed.  Whereas, Jackson's teams were terrible. 

It's an interesting debate.  I'm not sure I'm ready to put Jackson in Vick's league in terms of just that special talent you cant stop.  He's very stoppable but I'm not sure that the comparison does anything to help predict Jackson's future in the NFL.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, jetsons said:

CLASSIC movie!!!

They couldn't make that movie today, the protests would close down its opening, lol. Thank god for the ONION. At least you can still READ funny politically incorrect humor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, JiF said:

The Vick vs. Jackson debate is an interesting one.  Vick was the unquestioned consensus #1 overall pick and was the very definition of a run first QB.  Nobody can put their finger on Jackson and while he too was a run first QB, he certainly threw the ball a lot more than Vick in college.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Jackson is ahead of Vick from gasping the NFL passing game aspect but is Jackson one of those generational athletes like Vick who defy odds?  I'm not sure.  Outside of the 2 year stretch in Philly, Vick was a terrible passer but a DC's nightmare because of what he could do with his feet. However, Vick had that ability to make sh*t happen when most needed and Jackson really doesnt.  Mike Vick led a terrible team to the National Championship basically single-handed.  Whereas, Jackson's teams were terrible. 

It's an interesting debate.  I'm not sure I'm ready to put Jackson in Vick's league in terms of just that special talent you cant stop.  He's very stoppable but I'm not sure that the comparison does anything to help predict Jackson's future in the NFL.

 

Great post.

The thing I will add, there were a lot of people who thought Vick would revolutionize the game and be Jordan to the NFL. At times Vick was dynamic and game changing, I think he proved its tough to win big, consistently with that type of player. He had a few decent runs, but was never really a threat to win the SB IMO. Maybe had he not gone to jail and missed years of his prime, that changes, don't know.

I think when people saw Vick, who was that generational athlete could not really work at the NFL level, it makes it hard to think that a lesser Vick can work, particularly in todays NFL which is even more geared towards the passing game than it was in Vick's NFL.

If we got Jackson in the 2nd, it would be exciting because he would be a lot of fun to watch, unless Bowles makes him handoff all game which he may. But, I just don't think he is the type of guy that you can expect to be a franchise QB that will have you winning 10-13 games every year for 10 years, which is what we really want and need.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Well Rosen, and Darnold are California boys so they might as well be black in terms of NFL thinking with QB’s lately.

Haha!  That makes Mark Sanchez black.  I always thought so!

edit: @Paradis this is just a lame attempt at a joke, so stay calm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JiF said:

The Vick vs. Jackson debate is an interesting one.  Vick was the unquestioned consensus #1 overall pick and was the very definition of a run first QB.  Nobody can put their finger on Jackson and while he too was a run first QB, he certainly threw the ball a lot more than Vick in college.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Jackson is ahead of Vick from gasping the NFL passing game aspect but is Jackson one of those generational athletes like Vick who defy odds?  I'm not sure.  Outside of the 2 year stretch in Philly, Vick was a terrible passer but a DC's nightmare because of what he could do with his feet. However, Vick had that ability to make sh*t happen when most needed and Jackson really doesnt.  Mike Vick led a terrible team to the National Championship basically single-handed.  Whereas, Jackson's teams were terrible. 

It's an interesting debate.  I'm not sure I'm ready to put Jackson in Vick's league in terms of just that special talent you cant stop.  He's very stoppable but I'm not sure that the comparison does anything to help predict Jackson's future in the NFL.

 

Vick played in a different NFL. Look what Ryan Fitzpatrick did with his feet in 2015 for the Jets. And he's like a turtle running compared to Jackson. The Jets don't finish 2015 with a 10-6 record without Fitz making plays with his legs. The Bills made the playoffs for the 1st time in years with Tyrod Taylor. Jackson is Taylor on steroids. Put together an athletic zone blocking Oline, draft a running back like Sony Michel, sign a sure handed ball catcher like Jarvis Landry. Take a look at film of players like Russell Wilson & Carson Wentz and put together an offense. Stop trying to FIT players & start trying to win using the skill sets your players possess. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Well damn. Haven’t looked at this thread in a bit. Let’s chill with the racism talk and the **** you’s Please. Not the place for either.  Thanks guys . 

 

17 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

This is definitely the place for **** you's.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

And you're opposed to drafting Lamar Jackson even if he's Vick minus the dogfighting and attitude?  

Yes because he's slightly built and will get the Sh*t kicked out of him, his style works great in Collage, but not in the NFL. It's why we have Running backs.

After a couples of Years in the NFL he will be on IR. Lamar is 6"3 210, He's going to get his ass knocked in. He's nothing like Russell Wilson, who's a mobile pocket passer. A man the uses his legs to extend plays. Jacksons a run first pass second guy. If we was drafting in the 20-25 range I may take a shot, just not at 6. This league is a pocket passer QB lead one. Just look at the longevity, games missed, and health issues of previous QB's of his ilk.

Sure it may be exciting for a couple of years, but I want a longer term QB, not one whos fooked after 3-5 years in the league. Hard Pass.

RGIII.

Michael Vick

Randel Cunningham.

Steve Young

Kordell Stuart

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

Great post.

The thing I will add, there were a lot of people who thought Vick would revolutionize the game and be Jordan to the NFL. At times Vick was dynamic and game changing, I think he proved its tough to win big, consistently with that type of player. He had a few decent runs, but was never really a threat to win the SB IMO. Maybe had he not gone to jail and missed years of his prime, that changes, don't know.

I think when people saw Vick, who was that generational athlete could not really work at the NFL level, it makes it hard to think that a lesser Vick can work, particularly in todays NFL which is even more geared towards the passing game than it was in Vick's NFL.

If we got Jackson in the 2nd, it would be exciting because he would be a lot of fun to watch, unless Bowles makes him handoff all game which he may. But, I just don't think he is the type of guy that you can expect to be a franchise QB that will have you winning 10-13 games every year for 10 years, which is what we really want and need.

 

Agreed.  I think if you take Jackson you're going to have to deal an adjustment to the NFL but even once he does, up and down seasons.  Especially if his play leads to injuries which is speculative but very possible if he's running the ball as much as he did in school.  He wont be able to run away from people the way he did in college and I think you're going to deal with a lot inconsistency game to game because of it.

I think Bowles would also neuter him so much that Jackson would be afraid of his own shadow. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Vick played in a different NFL. Look what Ryan Fitzpatrick did with his feet in 2015 for the Jets. And he's like a turtle running compared to Jackson. The Jets don't finish 2015 with a 10-6 record without Fitz making plays with his legs. The Bills made the playoffs for the 1st time in years with Tyrod Taylor. Jackson is Taylor on steroids. Put together an athletic zone blocking Oline, draft a running back like Sony Michel, sign a sure handed ball catcher like Jarvis Landry. Take a look at film of players like Russell Wilson & Carson Wentz and put together an offense. Stop trying to FIT players & start trying to win using the skill sets your players possess. 

You know, now that you mention it, I think Tyrod might be the only QB in the past 20 years or so to be a run first college QB and transition into an efficient NFL passer.  He's not a good one but he's efficient for the most part. 

Interesting.

FWIW Vick started Football games for the Jets the year before Fitz got here.  He was around for the evolution into a passing league.  He just never really adjusted except a few good years in philly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JiF said:

I’m not discounting them, I’m pointing out that no QB in the modern era has transitioned from a run first QB to a successful pro QB.  And Jackson moved the ball more with his legs than his arm. 

And fwiw that breakdown was not good and clearly biased.  The very first play he calls that throw accurate...it’s was a terrible ball and if the WR doesn’t make the catch it’s a pick 6, so it was hard to take that serious. 

try watching more than the first play before you write something off as “biased”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

Yes because he's slightly built and will get the Sh*t kicked out of him, his style works great in Collage, but not in the NFL. It's why we have Running backs.

After a couples of Years in the NFL he will be on IR. Lamar is 6"3 210, He's going to get his ass knocked in. He's nothing like Russell Wilson, who's a mobile pocket passer. A man the uses his legs to extend plays. Jacksons a run first pass second guy. If we was drafting in the 20-25 range I may take a shot, just not at 6. This league is a pocket passer QB lead one. Just look at the longevity, games missed, and health issues of previous QB's of his ilk.

Sure it may be exciting for a couple of years, but I want a longer term QB, not one whos fooked after 3-5 years in the league. Hard Pass.

RGIII.

Michael Vick

Randel Cunningham.

Steve Young

Kordell Stuart

 

 

 

 

 

 

The possibility, or rather likelihood, of injury scares me as well.  That’s my main reason for having Darnold, Baker and Rosen ahead of Jackson.  If one of them suffers a serious injury and lose speed, agility and explosiveness, it’s not nearly as important to their game.  If Jackson does, it’s a problem.

But if Jackson really has Vick talent and a better attitude (willingness to learn, no animal cruelty problems, not a partier) then I’m willing to take the chance.  

Vick’s talent wasn't the issue, nor really was his slight frame.  He went to prison. 

I’m interested to see how fast Jackson really is, and most importantly, I want to hear about his interviews with teams.  

If we can’t sign Cousins and all the quarterbacks we like are gone by 6... McCown already signaled he’d love to mentor Lamar Jackson.  I think I could get behind that idea.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JiF said:

I’m not discounting them, I’m pointing out that no QB in the modern era has transitioned from a run first QB to a successful pro QB.  And Jackson moved the ball more with his legs than his arm. 

And fwiw that breakdown was not good and clearly biased.  The very first play he calls that throw accurate...it’s was a terrible ball and if the WR doesn’t make the catch it’s a pick 6, so it was hard to take that serious. 

I don’t want the Jets to draft Lamar Jackson because they’ll ruin his career. But, I can see scenarios where he becomes the biggest star from this draft class and we’re all looking back saying, “well, we whiffed on that one.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...