MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position

[Integrity28]

2015

• early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1
• also gave up draft capital for Ryan Fitzpatrick, who despite his lucky season, was and is a trash QB

2016 

• allowed Fitzpatrick and the offense to manipulate him into grossly over-paying for Fitz to return
• drafted a broken Hack with the 2nd round pick, but...
• refused to give up draft capital to trade up for Goff or Wentz
• ignored college results and leadership qualities and passed on guys like Brissett and Prescott, who were drafted well after Hack

2017

• paid good FA money for Josh McCown, who like Fitz is a career loser
• elected to pass on Mahomes and Watson, guys who offensive-minded coaches traded up to get and who will walk into next season as unquestioned starting QBs
• didn't get Petty or Hack on the field for any valuable snaps all season

2018

• about to lose out on Kirk Cousins, even though the Vikings will pay him less, because the state of the Jets in Mac's tenure is even worse than Idzik

 

Discuss...

[Joe W. Namath]

Mac needs to spend like a drunken sailor to keep his job beyond this year.  He needs cousins, allen robinson, jarvis landry etc.

He needs to spend every penny and make the playoffs next year or him and bowles are toast.

[CTM]

This presents more like a history than a strategy, D- thread and Mac gets an F for either 

[Jetscreen]

The 2018 portion of your rant IMO is the most damming? 3 years into his career here and the Jets are worse than when Idzik ruined the team and got fired. Yet Woody gives the moron an extension. I guess for Woody you get style points for losing?

[nycdan]

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

[bla bla bla]

2 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

The 2018 portion of your rant IMO is the most damming? 3 years into his career here and the Jets are worse than when Idzik ruined the team and got fired. Yet Woody gives the moron an extension. I guess for Woody you get style points for losing?

I agree the 2018 portion hurts but I'd still take this years team over what they inherited. If we land a QB especially if it is Cousins or sitting tight at 6 we will be trending upwards very fast. They next tier down would be trading up for a QB, which really isn't that bad because we'd have had $100M to fix the roster. The absolute worst case situation is a division rival trades in front of us and takes a QB we want.

[Integrity28]

12 minutes ago, CTM said:

This presents more like a history than a strategy, D- thread and Mac gets an F for either 

Valid point, updated title.

[CanadienJetsFan]

Oye

[CTM]

23 minutes ago, nycdan said:

 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

Holy crap, fire them all

[JohnnyLV]

26 minutes ago, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

POTW here. Mac has no concept of positional value in the draft. He may be the only QM in the NFL that truly ranks players unweighted than takes BAP. The Jets picking another safety over a QB is a very very real possibility.

[RedBeardedSavage]

30 minutes ago, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

Mac is the Chad Pennington of drafting. 

It's 3rd and 5 and he's going to hit Jerald Sowell in the flats for a three-yard gain.  He "took what was there"... "stayed true to his board"... He "never won a goddam thing".  

I'd forgive it all if he found us a franchise quarterback in this year's draft.  

[Gen X Jet]

Who's the Jets' QB coach?

[mkajet01]

Why would cousins play for Jets? No decent players will play for bowles because he's a lousy coach! Mccagnan will mess up draft probably draft another safety or cornerback. Sign McCown to start all year. Mac & Bowles are clowns

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Grandy]

6 minutes ago, Gen X Jet said:

Who's the Jets' QB coach?

I think Bates is still retaining the position.

[T0mShane]

What’s odd is that even shortly after drafting Petty, Macc pinned his value as a “number two quarterback in this league,” as if he was someone that got drafted against Macc’s will. And both McCown and Fitzpatrick reek of Bowles’ wishes considering his history with veteran washouts. Hackenberg is the anomaly because neither of them—Bowles or Macc—seemed particularly enthused about drafting him. Could have been a quid pro quo deal with an agent or something like that. Either way, being in Year Four of a regime and having no QB of merit on the roster should get everyone fired. 

[ScarletKnight89]

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

[Gen X Jet]

5 minutes ago, Grandy said:

I think Bates is still retaining the position.

Great. More for less on the offensive side of the ball makes sense for Todd and Co. 

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

The second you sign on the line to become a general manager, your entire life depends on you getting a long-term answer at quarterback, and surrounding that quarterback with the coaches and players that quarterback needs to be successful. Everything else is peripheral. If Macc thought that Ryan Fitzpatrick was his long-term answer, then he deserves to be where he is now: presiding over the most hopeless roster situation in the NFL. 

[nycdan]

6 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one of them looked really good until his injury.  I didn't know either of them would pan out.  But I'm not paid to know that.  Macc presumably is.  And I suspect that part of what held him back was not being ready to give up on Hack at that point, which only makes it so much worse.

So yeah, he needs to own that he probably screwed the pooch last year.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

I'm under no illusion that Macc is a GM of the year candidate, but he isn't being judged fairly. He has been set up to fail from day 1, and he will never succeed for as long as Woody owns the team and Chris Johnson is running it. I can't judge a GM who stands on even ground with the head coach. I don't know which of his moves were his, and which of his moves were heavily influenced by a Johnson. In either case, Macc has to go. We need a head coach who makes personnel decisions who works with a bean counter who makes the transaction happen. No more of this ridiculous power structure.

[T0mShane]

9 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

Also, and I’m not picking on you personally, but this is like the 50th time I’ve read this type of post in my 30+ years of being a Jets fan. “What did you want [GM] to do? His hands were tied. He took the best player available. Quarterbacks don’t grow on trees.” Etc etc. 

[dbatesman]

59 minutes ago, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

I physically recoiled from this post. What a bumble**** outfit this franchise is.

[CTM]

6 minutes ago, nycdan said:

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one of them looked really good until his injury.  I didn't know either of them would pan out.  But I'm not paid to know that.  Macc presumably is.  And I suspect that part of what held him back was not being ready to give up on Hack at that point, which only makes it so much worse.

So yeah, he needs to own that he probably screwed the pooch last year.

I saw you post that in another thread and I agree, taking Hack probably lead directly to passing on Watson and drafting Adams

[varjet]

16 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

In 2016 should have not drafted Hack.  Prescott or Brissett would have been nice.

In 2017, as opposed to drafting a 5-11 safety who runs a 4.6, should have swung at Watson or Mahomes.  I think both will be decent QBs in the league.  

I actually do not fault Mac for not trading up-I don't think it was that easy either for the Jets to pull off.  

[ScarletKnight89]

18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The second you sign on the line to become a general manager, your entire life depends on you getting a long-term answer at quarterback, and surrounding that quarterback with the coaches and players that quarterback needs to be successful. Everything else is peripheral. If Macc thought that Ryan Fitzpatrick was his long-term answer, then he deserves to be where he is now: presiding over the most hopeless roster situation in the NFL. 

Fair. But I don't think Macc ever thought that Fitz was his longterm answer at QB. After his first year the negotiations with Fitz took forever. Probably because the Jets were offering him a short term contract. I don't think it's fair to say Macc thought Fitz was his guy. He definitely didn't think he was. I think if anything, he thought he was good enough to hold the fort until they could find their guy in the draft. He brought him in initially as a backup QB to Geno.

[RedBeardedSavage]

27 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

He's had three offseasons to improve this team. 

We have no players at premium positions.  We have no quarterback, no edge-rusher, no cornerback and no offensive tackle.  

He could've had Mahomes or Lattimore last year, or he could've traded down, acquired another first rounder for this year (the year with all the quarterbacks), and taken TJ Watt or Ryan Ramczyk or Tre'Davious White.  

I think every 21st century GM should be graded on how they address those four positions: QB, O-tackle, Edge-Rusher & Cornerback.  Nearly every other position on the field is surplus.  

[ScarletKnight89]

18 minutes ago, nycdan said:

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one of them looked really good until his injury.  I didn't know either of them would pan out.  But I'm not paid to know that.  Macc presumably is.  And I suspect that part of what held him back was not being ready to give up on Hack at that point, which only makes it so much worse.

So yeah, he needs to own that he probably screwed the pooch last year.

But we have to let Watson and Mahomes actually produce for an entire season before criticize Macc IMO. If you wanted the Jets to draft one of those guys then obviously you have a fair gripe if you believe in them. 

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

2015

• early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1
• also gave up draft capital for Ryan Fitzpatrick, who despite his lucky season, was and is a trash QB

2016 

• allowed Fitzpatrick and the offense to manipulate him into grossly over-paying for Fitz to return
• drafted a broken Hack with the 2nd round pick, but...
• refused to give up draft capital to trade up for Goff or Wentz
• ignored college results and leadership qualities and passed on guys like Brissett and Prescott, who were drafted well after Hack

2017

• paid good FA money for Josh McCown, who like Fitz is a career loser
• elected to pass on Mahomes and Watson, guys who offensive-minded coaches traded up to get and who will walk into next season as unquestioned starting QBs
• didn't get Petty or Hack on the field for any valuable snaps all season

2018

• about to lose out on Kirk Cousins, even though the Vikings will pay him less, because the state of the Jets in Mac's tenure is even worse than Idzik

 

Discuss...

All that to say Macc sucks at drafting QBs? 

[ScarletKnight89]

16 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Also, and I’m not picking on you personally, but this is like the 50th time I’ve read this type of post in my 30+ years of being a Jets fan. “What did you want [GM] to do? His hands were tied. He took the best player available. Quarterbacks don’t grow on trees.” Etc etc. 

That's fine. But I just don't see the path he could have taken. This is his 4th season. I'm not saying give him forever to find a guy. I just think 3 years is a small window to give a GM.

[Matt39]

23 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The second you sign on the line to become a general manager, your entire life depends on you getting a long-term answer at quarterback, and surrounding that quarterback with the coaches and players that quarterback needs to be successful. Everything else is peripheral. If Macc thought that Ryan Fitzpatrick was his long-term answer, then he deserves to be where he is now: presiding over the most hopeless roster situation in the NFL. 

In this case, does it really? I dont get the sense either are close to being fired nor do I sense any urgency to find a longterm answer at QB other than pay Cousins a billion dollars. Bowles not wanting to play a rookie QB also hamstrings this entire process. 

[ScarletKnight89]

11 minutes ago, varjet said:

In 2016 should have not drafted Hack.  Prescott or Brissett would have been nice.

In 2017, as opposed to drafting a 5-11 safety who runs a 4.6, should have swung at Watson or Mahomes.  I think both will be decent QBs in the league.  

I actually do not fault Mac for not trading up-I don't think it was that easy either for the Jets to pull off.  

The Hack was a disaster. I can't defend it. And if you believe in Watson or Mahomes then those are fair complaints.

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

Big deal. Philly won a championship. How is their leadership pal?

[ScarletKnight89]

3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

He's had three offseasons to improve this team. 

We have no players at premium positions.  We have no quarterback, no edge-rusher, no cornerback and no offensive tackle.  

He could've had Mahomes or Lattimore last year, or he could've traded down, acquired another first rounder for this year (the year with all the quarterbacks), and taken TJ Watt or Ryan Ramczyk or Tre'Davious White.  

I think every 21st century GM should be graded on how they address those four positions: QB, O-tackle, Edge-Rusher & Cornerback.  Nearly every other position on the field is surplus.  

He gutted the roster last off season though. He's drafted Williams and Adams in the first round and both picks look good. Lee has been up and down. They weren't going to spend money last off season, they went with a young cheap roster. This off season they are going to spend money and hopefully with 3 picks in the first 2 rounds will be adding a lot of talent to the roster. If they don't, then he should be fired.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

In this case, does it really? I dont get the sense either are close to being fired nor do I sense any urgency to find a longterm answer at QB other than pay Cousins a billion dollars. Bowles not wanting to play a rookie QB also hamstrings this entire process. 

Well, yeah, in this case where there is no boss, they’re going to get away with it for at least one more year. I think It’ll take Manish deciding to cover for Todd by throwing Macc under the bus, which will get Woody’s attention the same way that Trump finds out what the public-at-large thinks of his product via Fox and Friends. Manish has been strangely neutral with this regime so far, but it’s only a matter of time.

[Integrity28]

7 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

All that to say Macc sucks at drafting QBs? 

It’s a more artistic troll when you wrap it in the trials and tribulations ...