MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Pac said:

EY may be wrong a lot of the time

Link?

Examples?

[Pac]

45 minutes ago, Bugg said:

So you're completely discounting Watson and Mahomes, and don't acknowledge Goff and Wentz were doable with a modest bumped up trade offer; Richardson was traded and Wilkerson was cut eventually anyway.Any of thsoe 4 would be better than any QB on the Jets' roster during GM Coffee Boy's tenure. Could've signed Foles on 2 occasions or dealt for Cousins in years past as well. Or signed Kennum over McCown. Also you, with the BAP nonsense you are buying, wish to pretend Williams is Ngata, Adams is Polamalu(they're both solid decent but not superstar players) and well, Lee pretty much sucks no matter how you cut it. 

Watson and Mahomes were being touted as 2nd and 3rd rounders until about 2 weeks before the draft.  Watson was great for Fantasy (he helped me turn my season around) but still had a 3-4 record.  Mahomes has this bizarre hero worship despite having only played 1 throw away game last year where he looked just ok.

Everything I've read and seen has this years crop of QB's being the better class.  Watson would not have had Hopkins and Fuller here.  It may look like a miss right now but I'd like to see at least 1 full season before declaring it the miss of the century.  

I'm really looking forward to the progression of Williams, Adams, and Lee.  My guess is Williams' wrist injury had a bigger effect on him than they cared to admit..  Adams will be a stud..  he's going to be awesome.  I think you guys are all off your rocker on that one..  and Lee finally started to hit his stride a bit (especially against the run) towards the latter part of the season.

These guys are part of a good core group that will only get better.  If you want to say Lee is a "bust" I'll disagree..  I also don't think there was anyone in the 10-20 picks after him that we missed out on.  

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

You've discovered why the average NFL GM tenure is less than 3 years.

Tannenbaum was at one point the longest tenured GM w/o a super bowl appearance.  I'd be willing to be Mac is approaching longest tenured GM w/o a playoff appearance.

[T0mShane]

11 minutes ago, varjet said:

Honestly, I am almost willing to give Mac a pass on the Hack pick. 

Man, nah.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Because people don't want to acknowledge how bad things are, but rather cling to some hope that one small fix, fire the coach, draft the QB this time, will make it all better.

If there’s one thing that’s a given, it’s this: a scout by trade who was promoted to GM, who has an awful record in player evaluation, should then be thrust into the role of NFL HC evaluation. I mean, Macc’s mentor/teacher from two organizations was Chuck Casserly, and Bowles (like Maccagnan) was here because of that very thought process. So it’s totally reasonable to believe Maccagnan would have success in this additional role, right? 

Failure in the role in which he’s experienced — obviously therefore give him another, even larger role in which he has no experience (on top of keeping up the tasks in which he’s failed so demonstrably).

“This grave we’ve dug for ourselves is simply too shallow. We need to dig deeper.”

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Tannenbaum was at one point the longest tenured GM w/o a super bowl appearance.  I'd be willing to be Mac is approaching longest tenured GM w/o a playoff appearance.

most gms who get their jobs b/c the team sucks draft qbs right away to put their stamp on the team and make it their own.  we're approaching draft 4 and this guy has drafted 2 qbs, none in the first and only 1 in the first 3 rounds.  you'd think we have a stable of young qbs with this approach.

[Bugg]

5 minutes ago, Pac said:

Watson and Mahomes were being touted as 2nd and 3rd rounders until about 2 weeks before the draft.  Watson was great for Fantasy (he helped me turn my season around) but still had a 3-4 record.  Mahomes has this bizarre hero worship despite having only played 1 throw away game last year where he looked just ok.

Everything I've read and seen has this years crop of QB's being the better class.  Watson would not have had Hopkins and Fuller here.  It may look like a miss right now but I'd like to see at least 1 full season before declaring it the miss of the century.  

I'm really looking forward to the progression of Williams, Adams, and Lee.  My guess is Williams' wrist injury had a bigger effect on him than they cared to admit..  Adams will be a stud..  he's going to be awesome.  I think you guys are all off your rocker on that one..  and Lee finally started to hit his stride a bit (especially against the run) towards the latter part of the season.

These guys are part of a good core group that will only get better.  If you want to say Lee is a "bust" I'll disagree..  I also don't think there was anyone in the 10-20 picks after him that we missed out on.  

Sounds like Hoover telling Dean Wormer he really expects the midterms to bring up Delta House's GPA. 

A stud SAFETY- a F___CING SAFETY-who so far has no big plays, 

Lee hit his stride;  you mean clobbered by a 40-year old vegetarian? 

Williams is a nice interior DL guy. But he doesn't get to the QB. He's only gonna be resigned if Coffee Boy wants to justify his drafting of him. A new GM won't see the point of overpaying a guy who, while decent, doesn't get there. 

YOU DON'T GET IT. There is NO SUCH THING AS A SHUTDOWN DEFENSE IN 2018. Either you have a pass rush and a because of the cap a mass of average in the middle, or your defense sucks.You don't overpay nor overdraft those middle of the defense players.  And you have a QB who can move the ball and score by passing effectively. 

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, Pac said:

Watson and Mahomes were being touted as 2nd and 3rd rounders until about 2 weeks before the draft.  Watson was great for Fantasy (he helped me turn my season around) but still had a 3-4 record.  Mahomes has this bizarre hero worship despite having only played 1 throw away game last year where he looked just ok.

Everything I've read and seen has this years crop of QB's being the better class.  Watson would not have had Hopkins and Fuller here.  It may look like a miss right now but I'd like to see at least 1 full season before declaring it the miss of the century.  

I'm really looking forward to the progression of Williams, Adams, and Lee.  My guess is Williams' wrist injury had a bigger effect on him than they cared to admit..  Adams will be a stud..  he's going to be awesome.  I think you guys are all off your rocker on that one..  and Lee finally started to hit his stride a bit (especially against the run) towards the latter part of the season.

These guys are part of a good core group that will only get better.  If you want to say Lee is a "bust" I'll disagree..  I also don't think there was anyone in the 10-20 picks after him that we missed out on.  

Right now, would you rather have Jamal Adams or Deshaun Watson on your team? 

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Right now, would you rather have Jamal Adams or Deshaun Watson on your team? 

i'd rather have adams and the qb we get in this draft, compared to watson and the db we get this draft.

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Right now, would you rather have Jamal Adams or Deshaun Watson on your team? 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000798105/article/sources-tell-us-exec-says-jamal-adams-not-a-game-changer

Prophetic

[dcJet]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

didn't we draft around #20 that year? can you imagine the reaction from everyone had we moved up? we would have given up most of our draft to move up(slight exaggeration) and those QBs wouldn't have had the talent around them they have now nor the coaching and likely would have looked very different thus Jet fans and the media would have already run Goff/Wentz out of town and we'd bash Macc for making such a stupid move.

Rams gave up 2 ones,2 twos and 2 threes from 15 to 2.  We drafted 20th.  Goff looks good so far but Goff could have been an RGIII.

The Eagles trade is harder to assess because they traded Bradford.

 

[varjet]

11 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i'd rather have adams and the qb we get in this draft, compared to watson and the db we get this draft.

Depends how that goes.  One could argue that we would be better with Watson and Minkah

[dcJet]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

What if i told you THAT trade WAS there to be made. And he passed on it because they wanted an extra 3rd. So Wentz, or extra 3rd.

Yes, Macc needs heat for that. 

I've heard this before on this board but have never seen proof.   Link?

If so, the price may have been 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes. 

That a huge price, unless you look at yesterday through today's eyes.

[varjet]

12 minutes ago, gEYno said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000798105/article/sources-tell-us-exec-says-jamal-adams-not-a-game-changer

Prophetic

This is why Adams was there at 6, and the Jets were surprised!  Certain teams actually know what they are doing.  

[Pac]

21 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Right now, would you rather have Jamal Adams or Deshaun Watson on your team? 

Adams..  Watson has a torn ACL.

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, gEYno said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000798105/article/sources-tell-us-exec-says-jamal-adams-not-a-game-changer

Prophetic

I cringe whenever I see the word “versatility” listed as a strength. But, yeah. Landon Collins competes for DPOTY every time he steps on the field, and we’re stuck with the dude who tackles running backs. Interesting quote in JuJu Schuster, too. The Steelers find WRs so consistently they should just sell their scouting reports to other teams. 

[Pac]

15 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i'd rather have adams and the qb we get in this draft, compared to watson and the db we get this draft.

this the correct question!

Watson or Adams + Cousins, Darnold, Rosen, Allen, or Mayfield.

[dcJet]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He thought he had it right with Christian Hackenberg.  That's why we didn't take a QB last draft.  Because of Christian Hackenberg.

Let that soak in for a second.  

Nope. 

Mac deferred picking QB until this year.  He preferred Cousins or 2018 draft class over Watson/Mahomes. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Pac said:

Adams..  Watson has a torn ACL.

This makes me so happy. Thank you.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

I've heard this before on this board but have never seen proof.   Link?

If so, the price may have been 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes. 

That a huge price, unless you look at yesterday through today's eyes.

Big price on paper, yes.  But, look at the actual players we took.  You'd have to give them all up for a QB.

[MDL_JET]

44 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Tannenbaum was at one point the longest tenured GM w/o a super bowl appearance.  I'd be willing to be Mac is approaching longest tenured GM w/o a playoff appearance.

Just looked up a few guys and how long it took them to reach playoffs...

Rick Smith - 5 years

Reggie McKenzie - 4 years

Caldwell - 4 years

Snead - 5 years

Loomis - 5 years

Ryan Pace, hired same year as Mac, hasn't reached playoffs yet either. Got his QB last year though. 

It appears it takes some time I guess.

[dcJet]

Just now, gEYno said:

Big price on paper, yes.  But, look at the actual players we took.  You'd have to give them all up for a QB.

Yeah man but only in hindsight.  What if Goff played his whole career like he played the first season.  We'd be Washington after RGIII.

 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, Pac said:

this the correct question!

Watson or Adams + Cousins, Darnold, Rosen, Allen, or Mayfield.

let's be real here.  if mccags drafts a qb and he looks pretty good, his other failings will be forgiven by most everyone here.  

[Paradis]

8 minutes ago, dcJet said:

I've heard this before on this board but have never seen proof.   Link?

If so, the price may have been 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes. 

That a huge price, unless you look at yesterday through today's eyes.

I don't care. They identified Wentz as "their guy"... and when push came to shove, TEN said, give us another 3rd if you want to best the other offer (PHI).. and Macc exited. What a eunuch. If Wentz's the guy, then put your d*ck on the table and get it done. You think PHI regrets paying the ransom?

HELL NO

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, MDL_JET said:

Just looked up a few guys and how long it took them to reach playoffs...

Rick Smith - 5 years

Reggie McKenzie - 4 years

Caldwell - 4 years

Snead - 5 years

Loomis - 5 years

Ryan Pace, hired same year as Mac, hasn't reached playoffs yet either. Got his QB last year though. 

It appears it takes some time I guess.

So, suffice to say, Macc is getting there as far as tenure goes.  It's also a misrepresentation to suggest that those who have a problem with Macc and the job he has done have a problem due to lack of patience.  Most of us have plenty of patience, if there's progress.  This team has not shown anything in the way of progress over 3 years, and the crown jewel is an average safety, which doesn't win you football games.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Yeah man but only in hindsight.  What if Goff played his whole career like he played the first season.  We'd be Washington after RGIII.

Where are we now?  We just have a bunch of bad players instead of one bad player.

[Paradis]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

let's be real here.  if mccags drafts a qb and he looks pretty good, his other failings will be forgiven by most everyone here.  

ehh, might be too late for that. Last year, sure. This year, even if said QB looks good, not sure how much credit/leash that buys him. He's going to have to make some FA signings that actually make a difference, especially on offense. The RB he selects this year is going to have to be a banger. QB or not, another stinker offseason as far as playmakers go -- he's fcking out. 

[dcJet]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

I draw the line at 2 years of ineptitude. Woody Johnson school of management is let the guy show us he's a loser then hand him $100M to triple confirm it it by wiping out the franchise's future for the next five years. 

This thinking is why we suck for 40 years.  No established GM or coach will come here because we're unstable, so we have to hire rookies.  The rookies learn but make mistakes because that's the nature of the business.  So we fire them and they take the experience we gave them elsewhere, and we get new rookies.  Rinse and Repeat.

Let Mac learn.  I'm tired of tearing it down every 2 years.

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

ehh, might be too late for that. Last year, sure. This year, even if said QB looks good, not sure how much credit/leash that buys him. He's going to have to make some FA signings that actually make a difference, especially on offense. The RB he selects this year is going to have to be a banger. QB or not, another stinker offseason as far as playmakers go -- he's fcking out. 

the draft is set up for the jets, qb/rb/interior linemen.  

[Paradis]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

the draft is set up for the jets, qb/rb/interior linemen.  

Yes, i'm with you. It's seem fool proof right? But we somehow had back to back WR classes that JETS totally whiffed on, and came away from two strong RB drafts with McGuire. 

Not in the clear yet, bro. 

[nyjunc]

18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I cringe whenever I see the word “versatility” listed as a strength. But, yeah. Landon Collins competes for DPOTY every time he steps on the field, and we’re stuck with the dude who tackles running backs. Interesting quote in JuJu Schuster, too. The Steelers find WRs so consistently they should just sell their scouting reports to other teams. 

Collins was a real difference maker in 2015 and 2017. 

after 1 season Collins and Adamas were on the all rookie team, Collins took a big leap year 2.  How about we see how Adams progresses before we bash him?

[MDL_JET]

10 minutes ago, Paradis said:

ehh, might be too late for that. Last year, sure. This year, even if said QB looks good, not sure how much credit/leash that buys him. He's going to have to make some FA signings that actually make a difference, especially on offense. The RB he selects this year is going to have to be a banger. QB or not, another stinker offseason as far as playmakers go -- he's fcking out. 

Obviously a QB will buy him time, especially if he looks good. Lets be real here. But then his clock starts on whether he surrounds him with weapons or not. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Paradis said:

Yes, i'm with you. It's seem fool proof right? But we somehow had back to back WR classes that JETS totally whiffed on, and came away from two strong RB drafts with McGuire. 

Not in the clear yet, bro. 

guys like hansen and mcguire are fine for the rounds they're drafted in.  it's just amazing that this franchise hasn't drafted an offensive player in the first round since 2009 and has only 1 first round draft pick on its entire offensive roster.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

guys like hansen and mcguire are fine for the rounds they're drafted in.  it's just amazing that this franchise hasn't drafted an offensive player in the first round since 2009 and has only 1 first round draft pick on its entire offensive roster.

what's more amazing is that w/ all the 1st rd picks on D it never amounted to being even close to a top D.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

what's more amazing is that w/ all the 1st rd picks on D it never amounted to being even close to a top D.

at least that's more a function of poor coaching.  but that's what's bound to happen when your head coach plays sheldon at linebacker.

with the offense, i'm tired of all the wrs/tes/rbs/qbs being imported from other teams.