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MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position


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3 hours ago, CTM said:

I honestly don't get how he has any defenders. By any objective measure we are basically in the same place as we were 3 years ago, so why are we thinking we'll do the same thing with the same guys and get a different result over the next 3 years? Banking on the broken clock theory?

No man. I'm banking on him getting better at GM'ing after doing it for 3 years just like we all did at our jobs.

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2015 early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one

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10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I cringe whenever I see the word “versatility” listed as a strength. But, yeah. Landon Collins competes for DPOTY every time he steps on the field, and we’re stuck with the dude who tackles running backs. Interesting quote in JuJu Schuster, too. The Steelers find WRs so consistently they should just sell their scouting reports to other teams. 

I think Landon Collins is extremely overrated.  He is a good player and I was shocked that he dropped as far as he did, but he has had a sh*t year, an excellent year and an eh year.  I would be interested in how our "leader of men" dealt with "cancer in the locker room"  Do you think they are keeping Apple? I know they shopped him and were not happy with the offers.

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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I think Landon Collins is extremely overrated.  He is a good player and I was shocked that he dropped as far as he did, but he has had a sh*t year, an excellent year and an eh year.  I would be interested in how our "leader of men" dealt with "cancer in the locker room"  Do you think they are keeping Apple? I know they shopped him and were not happy with the offers.

was collins the guy who called apple the cancer or was it someone else?

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18 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This thinking is why we suck for 40 years.  No established GM or coach will come here because we're unstable, so we have to hire rookies.  The rookies learn but make mistakes because that's the nature of the business.  So we fire them and they take the experience we gave them elsewhere, and we get new rookies.  Rinse and Repeat.

Let Mac learn.  I'm tired of tearing it down every 2 years.

Or maybe we just hire the wrong rookies. 

Mangini, Rex, Herm, Idzik, Pettine, Tannenbaum - these guys are tearing up the league with all the experience we gave them.  Maybe we keep hiring people without an aptitude for the job.

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32 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Nope. 

Mac deferred picking QB until this year.  He preferred Cousins or 2018 draft class over Watson/Mahomes. 

If he preferred the 2018 class, why d*ck around with Josh McCown?  Why not tank properly, for once?

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35 minutes ago, varjet said:

This is why Adams was there at 6, and the Jets were surprised!  Certain teams actually know what they are doing.  

Hated the Adams trade then and hate it now. Safety at 6 is only marginally more smart than punter at 6. It is the least important position on a football team not a kicker.

Drafting Leo was just as dumb. 

 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The ridiculousness of only looking at players we were in a position to get is awesome. So if LA decided not to pull the trigger on an offer to move-up to #1, would Rams fans then claim they weren’t in a position to draft Goff (or Wentz) because they only had the 15th pick?

The ridiculousness of firing the 25 GM's that didn't move up for Wentz is awesome.

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14 minutes ago, dcJet said:

No man. I'm banking on him getting better at GM'ing after doing it for 3 years just like we all did at our jobs.

You act like he walked in off the street and took a training position. He's a GM who has spent a career in front offices.

If I hire a lead developer with 15 years experiance and find out they  can't code very well, I don't sit around and wait for them to learn while paying them 200k a year, I fire their ass.

If i hire a junior developer for 40k a year and know they will learn on job, I am willing to wait. (but even then not 3 years)

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58 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i'd rather have adams and the qb we get in this draft, compared to watson and the db we get this draft.

This is what makes or breaks Mac.  Is new QB and Adams > Watson and Minkah

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13 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think Landon Collins is extremely overrated.  He is a good player and I was shocked that he dropped as far as he did, but he has had a sh*t year, an excellent year and an eh year.  I would be interested in how our "leader of men" dealt with "cancer in the locker room"  Do you think they are keeping Apple? I know they shopped him and were not happy with the offers.

Collins was brutal in coverage last year, but I think Spagnuolo screwed with his role last year and put him in man a lot, which was a mistake. How do they not move Apple? That dude seems to be legitimately nuts, no?

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3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

The ridiculousness of firing the 25 GM's that didn't move up for Wentz is awesome.

So now we're down to the ridiculous suggestions that:

  • Anywhere near 25 GMs needed QBs in 2016;
  • These fictitious 25 GMs, interested in trading up for a QB in 2016, could make a better offer than the Rams and/or Jets;
  • These fictitious 25 GMs in 2016 then attempted to solve their current and longstanding QB problems with Christian Hackenberg and Ryan Fitzpatrick;
  • This failure to trade up nearly represents the full extent of Maccagnan's failure at the position.

So he's actually one of the league's better GMs, is a true asset, is an astute evaluator of talent and what that talent is worth, and is therefore likely to build a sustainable winner here.

I feel much better now.

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22 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Obviously a QB will buy him time, especially if he looks good. Lets be real here. But then his clock starts on whether he surrounds him with weapons or not. 

ehh, again. Imagine a scenario where we draft Rosen (or insert your fav name), and nothing else moves forward. A handful of 2nd rate veterans and some more rookies that look like... well, the rest of our draft classes.

Yea, just like TB who fired their coach shortly after drafting Winston, i think it's possible if the needle doesn't move. A QB isn't going to auto-buy time IMO. He's going to have to use our cap effectively. That's a must.  

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42 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I don't care. They identified Wentz as "their guy"... and when push came to shove, TEN said, give us another 3rd if you want to best the other offer (PHI).. and Macc exited. What a eunuch. If Wentz's the guy, then put your d*ck on the table and get it done. You think PHI regrets paying the ransom?

HELL NO

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17 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think Landon Collins is extremely overrated.  He is a good player and I was shocked that he dropped as far as he did, but he has had a sh*t year, an excellent year and an eh year.  I would be interested in how our "leader of men" dealt with "cancer in the locker room"  Do you think they are keeping Apple? I know they shopped him and were not happy with the offers.

You can't blame L.O.M. for others' actions. He's only a L.O.M. for those M. who would behave responsibly even in L.O.M.'s absence.

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1 minute ago, Paradis said:

ehh, again. Imagine a scenario where we draft Rosen (or insert your fav name), and nothing else moves forward. A handful of 2nd rate veterans and some more rookies that look like... well, the rest of our draft classes.

Yea, just like TB who fired their coach shortly after drafting Winston, i think it's possible if the needle doesn't move. A QB isn't going to auto-buy time IMO. He's going to have to use our cap effectively. That's a must.  

Not saying he automatically gets an extra 5 years. That's why I said his next clock starts to start pushing the whole team forward and surrounding said QB with a good supporting cast. And a hell of a lot more pressure is on Bowles. 

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18 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If he preferred the 2018 class, why d*ck around with Josh McCown?  Why not tank properly, for once?

That's easy...I don't think anyone expected McCown to be as good as he was early on. And the Team definitely got off on proving everyone wrong. I would too if my summer was spent getting told by Dick Cimini and Mehta that they were a 1-win team waiting to happen.

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2 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Not saying he automatically gets an extra 5 years. That's why I said his next clock starts to start pushing the whole team forward and surrounding said QB with a good supporting cast. And a hell of a lot more pressure is on Bowles. 

if mccags gets the qb question right this year he can spend the next few drafts with his beloved BAP and the team will improve, as long as they have competent offensive coaching and bowles stays out of harms way.

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17 minutes ago, CTM said:

You act like he walked in off the street and took a training position. He's a GM who has spent a career in front offices.

If I hire a lead developer with 15 years experiance and find out they  can't code very well, I don't sit around and wait for them to learn while paying them 200k a year, I fire their ass.

If i hire a junior developer for 40k a year and know they will learn on job, I am willing to wait. (but even then not 3 years)

That's a bad example.  GM'ing is way harder than developing.

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2 minutes ago, dcJet said:

That's a bad example.  GM'ing is way harder than developing.

Exactly why he deserved to be fired.  GM's get fired all the time for far less sh*tty work.  Hell, look at John Dorsey.  Why does Maccagnan get a pass because the job is hard?

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6 minutes ago, dcJet said:

That's a bad example.  GM'ing is way harder than developing.

I'd bet the average head technology guy is a lot smarter than mac

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly why he deserved to be fired.  GM's get fired all the time for far less sh*tty work.

This is what a rebuild looks like.  They tore the sh*t down.   I don't know what you expected.   

You know they didn't spend any money last year right?

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

I'd bet the average head technology guy is a lot smarter than mac

Maybe.  I've seen some losers.

Point is it's hard to hire someone with experience in a job where there are only 32 positions in the world.  So expect a learning curve.  He's done some stuff well like the Sheldon trade and not getting locked into long, back filled contracts.  It hasn't been a complete sh!tshow.

If there was a qualified guy available, i'd say pull the trigger now  But there isn't, so I say lets stick with the devil we know and see if he can show improvement in the re-rebuild.
 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Hell if i remember the thread buddy. Mogglez was pretty adamant.  Assume it's true. How do you feel about that. 

I've only seen it mentioned here.  Google says nada.

If it was 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes, I would have passed for Wentz back then.  Now, I'd throw in 3 fours.

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Just now, dcJet said:

Maybe.  I've seen some losers.

Point is it's hard to hire someone with experience in a job where there are only 32 positions in the world.  So expect a learning curve.  He's done some stuff well like the Sheldon trade and not getting locked into long, back filled contracts.  It hasn't been a complete sh!tshow.

If there was a qualified guy available, i'd say pull the trigger now  But there isn't, so I say lets stick with the devil we know and see if he can show improvement in the re-rebuild.
 

 

 

There are 32 eligible NFL GM jobs, it's not apples to apples to compare a lead dev at some podunk little company to an NFL GM. Imagine google or FB or Amazon, the head technologists of those companies are infinitely smarter than Mac. If google hires a head dev, you think they are giving him 3 years to learn on the job?

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1 minute ago, dcJet said:

I've only seen it mentioned here.  Google says nada.

 

Why would google know. Is that the measure for you -- some jerk off on twitter? The same one who reported we're "in love with Allen" and another who said Mayfield this month...

You're getting the goods inhouse. The real mcCoy. I suggest you nod and say thank you. 

 

btw - you didn't answer the question. 

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25 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Why would google know. Is that the measure for you -- some jerk off on twitter? The same one who reported we're "in love with Allen" and another who said Mayfield this month...

You're getting the goods inhouse. The real mcCoy. I suggest you nod and say thank you. 

 

btw - you didn't answer the question. 

I answered in the edit

"If it was 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes, I would have passed for Wentz back then.  Now, I'd throw in 3 fours."

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16 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This is what a rebuild looks like.  They tore the sh*t down.   I don't know what you expected.   

You know they didn't spend any money last year right?

lol.  Rebuilds don't take 4 years dude.  The first rebuild was supposed to be in Year 2.  Now we're in Year 4, and the roster is in shambles.

Macc CREATED the need to rebuild, by failing to bring in impact players in any of his 3 drafts. 

Macc blew everything up with TNT, twice, while you're acting like he walked into a natural disaster. 

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Just now, dcJet said:

I've only seen it mentioned here.  Google says nada.

 

Google also says nada about Woody forcing him into signing Revis for $20m/year, and there are no in-house leaks supporting it, yet many are positive this was the case.

It's unrealistic to fault the lack of any official team info release outlining details of a trade they declined to make -- especially in light of drafting a QB a round later, and a few months after that re-inking a veteran QB, and extending Mo who was integral to a trade up as well, and how much smarter it would have been to do this instead of the 3 of 3 failure moves they did make instead. How often do you hear about that from any team, especially from a GM on the hotseat?

Mogglez has and had no personal axe to grind, and was far less pessimistic of Macc despite all this and more. There seems little reason to make it up, and his account on this and other events is a bit more detailed than I'd expect from someone just fabricating things on a message board. The phony stories are usually people seeking internet fame and/or notoriety of some type beyond a lone team's unofficial fan forum. 

The team definitely inquired about a trade-up, which is to say there was an exchange of what each side wanted, and Macc did at least admit that much publicly. With the Rams (who didn't have a Mo to offer up in trade) successfully moving up from only #15, it's hardly far-fetched.

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10 minutes ago, CTM said:

There are 32 eligible NFL GM jobs, it's not apples to apples to compare a lead dev at some podunk little company to an NFL GM. Imagine google or FB or Amazon, the head technologists of those companies are infinitely smarter than Mac. If google hires a head dev, you think they are giving him 3 years to learn on the job?

Also he crosses his legs like a broad.

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I believe that the Ringer did an article on the average age of NFL players skewing much younger since the new CBA and there was a blurb there from the Bills GM on the players that they look to pay. It was essentially:

- 1 pass rusher

- QB

- 1 offensive playmaker

- LT

- CB

- 1 defensive playmaker

 

I think that's a solid strategy to field at least a competitive team barring the rest of your squad is replacement-level. Looking at the Jets 'solutions' at all of those aforementioned positions, how can anyone justify Maccagnan keeping his job? He's f*cked this thing all the way up.

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4 minutes ago, CTM said:

There are 32 eligible NFL GM jobs, it's not apples to apples to compare a lead dev at some podunk little company to an NFL GM. Imagine google or FB or Amazon, the head technologists of those companies are infinitely smarter than Mac. If google hires a head dev, you think they are giving him 3 years to learn on the job?

We are not discussing apples to apples.  NFL GM'ing is much different than lead developing.  Developers are a dime a dozen.  Franchise QB's aren't.

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