MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position

[CTM]

16 minutes ago, dcJet said:

We are not discussing apples to apples.  NFL GM'ing is much different than lead developing.  Developers are a dime a dozen.  Franchise QB's aren't.

I was talking about in terms of a leadership position, where the success or failure of the person put in the spot has a huge impact on the overall organizations success. If any normal company hires someone into a top leadership position they are doing it because they think the person has the talent, experience and knowledge to be successful today, not because they want them to learn on the job. They don't get 3 years to show improvment nor do they get a 4th year if the first 3 were abysmal. 

[#27TheDominator]

43 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This is what a rebuild looks like.  They tore the sh*t down.   I don't know what you expected.   

You know they didn't spend any money last year right?

sh*t was torn down when he got here.  I keep hearing how he is so smart at structuring contracts so we can get out of them (they have been standard contracts IMO) and then we had to spend 2017 in limbo to get out from under the sh*t he bought in 2015?  Or are you saying that we did that for Cousins? If so, it's sure going to sting if Cousins signs with the Vikes.

 

[dcJet]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol.  Rebuilds don't take 4 years dude.  The first rebuild was supposed to be in Year 2.  Now we're in Year 4, and the roster is in shambles.

Macc CREATED the need to rebuild, by failing to bring in impact players in any of his 3 drafts. 

Macc blew everything up with TNT, twice, while you're acting like he walked into a natural disaster. 

This is year 2 of the re-rebuild.  Spent no money last year, tank was on and we have lots of salary cap and draft capital this year.  Lets see how it plays out.   If he Idziks the bed, run him out.  

Mac didn't create the need for this rebuild.  Idzik did.  Next rebuild will be on Mac

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This is year 2 of the re-rebuild.  Spent no money last year, tank was on and we have lots of salary cap and draft capital this year.  Lets see how it plays out.   If he Idziks the bed, run him out.  

Mac didn't create the need for this rebuild.  Idzik did.  Next rebuild will be on Mac

He already Idzik'd the bed.  3 crappy drafts and back to back 5-11 seasons.   You don't get to blame 2016 and 2017 on the previous GM. 

[dcJet]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He already Idzik'd the bed.  3 crappy drafts and back to back 5-11 seasons.   You don't get to blame 2016 and 2017 on the previous GM. 

OK but when he makes "Exec of the Year" this year, he'll make up for it.

[#27TheDominator]

30 minutes ago, dcJet said:

I've only seen it mentioned here.  Google says nada.

If it was 2 ones, 3 twos and 3 threes, I would have passed for Wentz back then.  Now, I'd throw in 3 fours.

15 seconds on google and I found this 

"The simple answer to that question is yes," Maccagnan said. "If that was a player we felt strong about, we would have no qualms of potentially trying to go up and get him."  In three drafts, Maccagnan has yet to trade up in the first round, although he made inquiries in 2016. That's the year quarterbacks Jared Goff and Carson Wentz were selected one-two.

Maccagnan dodged an initial question about whether the Jets looked into trading up to No. 1. But then he gave an actual answer to a follow-up.  "The short answer is yes," he said. "The short answer is we inquired."

I'm sure it isn't exactly what you were looking for, but try harder.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

OK but when he makes "Exec of the Year" this year, he'll make up for it.

Good luck with that. 

[dcJet]

Just tired of changing GM's every 3 years.  The next 3 year guy might have us in same position as today .

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, dcJet said:

We are not discussing apples to apples.  NFL GM'ing is much different than lead developing.  Developers are a dime a dozen.  Franchise QB's aren't.

Meh. Virtually all either hire from within (e.g. Tannenbaum, or Reese with the Giants), hire people they've heard of from other teams (e.g. Accorsi for NYG, Bradway for us), or hire advisers' buddies/acquaintances (e.g. Maccagnan). Even by advice or reputation, they're from those who have a reputation within league circles (filled with meatheads anyway).

They're not exactly seeking out the very smartest and most competent members of society for these positions, and the league-wide annual turnover by team request - almost always demonstrably justified - seems ample proof of this. 

[dcJet]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

15 seconds on google and I found this 

"The simple answer to that question is yes," Maccagnan said. "If that was a player we felt strong about, we would have no qualms of potentially trying to go up and get him."  In three drafts, Maccagnan has yet to trade up in the first round, although he made inquiries in 2016. That's the year quarterbacks Jared Goff and Carson Wentz were selected one-two.

Maccagnan dodged an initial question about whether the Jets looked into trading up to No. 1. But then he gave an actual answer to a follow-up.  "The short answer is yes," he said. "The short answer is we inquired."

I'm sure it isn't exactly what you were looking for, but try harder.

Right, not questioning the attempt to trade.  The question though was @Paradis saying trade was done deal if we gave another third.  Seems inside info! 

[Paradis]

8 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Right, not questioning the attempt to trade.  The question though was @Paradis saying trade was done deal if we gave another third.  Seems inside info! 

I think it is insider knowledge -- but beyond that, the tea leaves say that there was obviously a QB whom we liked enough to make those calls. So if we made that determination -- and made those calls... like, at what point do you say "Just get it done". If the price escalates into so many #1s of the future that it compromises the integrity of the team... Yea, i get it. But if we're talking about mid round picks and pulling out because he couldn't find the spare change.... If you think he's "the guy" make it happen. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Paradis said:

I think it is insider knowledge -- but beyond that, the tea leaves say that there was obviously a QB whom we liked enough to make those calls. So if we made that determination -- and made those calls... like, at what point do you say "Just get it done". If the price escalates into so many #1s of the future that it compromises the integrity of the team... Yea, i get it. But if we're talking about mid round picks and pulling out because he couldn't find the spare change.... If you think he's "the guy" make it happen. 

my guess is, mccags didn't want to be defined immediately by a qb who flopped, so he's tried to build up some modest draft success by not screwing up his 1st and 2nd round picks.  but what he should have figured out sooner is that if he hit on a qb he would have the latitude to survive draft fails in subsequent drafts.

[dcJet]

26 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

sh*t was torn down when he got here.  I keep hearing how he is so smart at structuring contracts so we can get out of them (they have been standard contracts IMO) and then we had to spend 2017 in limbo to get out from under the sh*t he bought in 2015?  Or are you saying that we did that for Cousins? If so, it's sure going to sting if Cousins signs with the Vikes.

 

I hope i'm right but maybe I'm not.

I'd like to think that when Mac got approval for a real rebuild, he gutted the roster and decided to save his ammo for 2018.  He saw Cousins and the 2018 draft class as better than Watson/Mahomes.  

This is where I differ form some of youze.  Where some of you see incompetence, I see a plan.

[SenorGato]

On 3/6/2018 at 6:54 PM, Integrity28 said:

as grossly over-paying for Fitz

When I noped out. I cannot stand how NFL contracts get analyzed at the entertainment level. Essentially everyone is always an overpay, it gets way worse if they’re on one of the 31 teams that don’t win the latest championship. Harvard was coming off literally the only quality QB performance this franchise had had in a decade and wasn’t give franchise QB money or a high commit deal, that is not a gross overpay. 

Yes, we all knew he would probably suck and wouldn’t repeat the performance. Nooot really the point, there was a non-zero chance that could be wrong given the recency of the performance that got the deal and it was the ******* QB position. It also did nothing to actually impede any other moves, potential or otherwise. This is EXACTLywhat you do at that position until a franchise guy falls into your lap. It explains why a Casey Keenum signing has its support this offseason and would likely be greeted with polite applause here. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Collins was brutal in coverage last year, but I think Spagnuolo screwed with his role last year and put him in man a lot, which was a mistake. How do they not move Apple? That dude seems to be legitimately nuts, no?

I don't know what Spagnuolo did to him, but he can't play man because he isn't versatile! 

I don't know how crazy Apple is.  I don't remember it being an issue in college or pre-draft.  He wasn't the only Giants CB to be suspended.  I think they all were, I know they suspended DRC and Janoris Jenkins too.  This kid is 22, those guys have been around forever. 

He had some serious issues with his mom, either because she is a Lavar Ball stage mom or because she had brain surgery during the season.  Or both.  There may be something odd about him - he supposedly was weak as a freshman because of an iron deficiency and he couldn't work out this off-season because of an "undisclosed illness."  I think he is a guy that could use a change of scenery.  He is cheap enough and I don't he is any crazier than Marcus Peters.  Trade a 5th for him, it's a better deal than Rashard Robinson.  On the other hand, he walked out on RU because Schiano left, so **** 'im.

[#27TheDominator]

41 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Right, not questioning the attempt to trade.  The question though was @Paradis saying trade was done deal if we gave another third.  Seems inside info! 

We know what Philly gave up.  We know Maccagnan tapped out before he got there.  It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out a little more might have done it.

[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

March offseason (some of which I absolutely have outlined in prior posts, despite your guess to the contrary): 

• . Happy now?

Nice post Sperm and FWIW I was not directing my comments at you as much as others who always seem to be negative on a consistent basis. 

That being said I know this team has been a hot mess for the last 19 years not including the 2 AFCCG years when we basically got lucky to even make the playoffs. Either way I do not think we are currently in that bad a of a position a few well calculated moves (obviously pending on how FA and the draft falls) can turn this thing around quick especially if we land a top QB. Even with that happening I do not feel Todd Bowles is a good coach at all and I do not trust him to make the right calls even if this team becomes a playoff caliber team. In the playoffs its 1 and out and you simply can't make the mistakes we see Bowles make on a regular basis even with a talented roster.

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Nice post Sperm and FWIW I was not directing my comments at you as much as others who always seem to be negative on a consistent basis. 

That being said I know this team has been a hot mess for the last 19 years not including the 2 AFCCG years when we basically got lucky to even make the playoffs. Either way I do not think we are currently in that bad a of a position a few well calculated moves (obviously pending on how FA and the draft falls) can turn this thing around quick especially if we land a top QB. Even with that happening I do not feel Todd Bowles is a good coach at all and I do not trust him to make the right calls even if this team becomes a playoff caliber team. In the playoffs its 1 and out and you simply can't make the mistakes we see Bowles make on a regular basis even with a talented roster.

Good, then I don't need to take the time to run down this for the D.  

In truth, I'm far more concerned about what to do about the offense - as I've said in a couple of posts today - just because of the singular importance of giving a young QB the best possible chances without ****ing us up with boom/bust FAs coming off a career year they probably won't repeat, but pay him as though that's the expected baseline going forward.

[Smashmouth]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Good, then I don't need to take the time to run down this for the D.  

In truth, I'm far more concerned about what to do about the offense - as I've said in a couple of posts today - just because of the singular importance of giving a young QB the best possible chances without ****ing us up with boom/bust FAs coming off a career year they probably won't repeat, but pay him as though that's the expected baseline going forward.

Never I want the D

Yeah I agree the Offense really needs to be addressed especially the OL QB is a given. The longer the offense has the ball the better the chance our defense does not get worn down consistently in the 4th quarter where games are won and lost. This team really needs LB's which are always the heart and soul of a 3-4 defense. Do we have 1 LB you can truly say is even in the conversation of top 10 in the league ? I would think any good defense should have at least one or 2 we have 0

[Smashmouth]

4 hours ago, Paradis said:

 

I dunno dude, i think there's a significant portion of posters who that's all they do - is explore solutions or propose options. I don't think that's fair to say. Sure you get a handful of short and snippy jabs - but also of long winded "here's a scenario where the jets address A/B/C

Well my point is people are quick to point fingers and blame but so many NFL teams fail when addressing the QB position. and there's the small group of teams that just get downright lucky (Pats Seahawks).... Bottom line is the expert tag that so many evaluators are given is not really an expert tag at all its more like a luck tag or who got lucky today. We have QB's that have the Skills but for some reason the QB position comes down to so many more things that just ability the thought process that goes into the position is almost incalculable  at the college level transitioning to the Pro's

So for instance If I'm tooting the horn of Rosen all over these boards and pushing for the Jets to draft him at any cost if he sh*ts the bed can I really criticize Macc ? 

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, dcJet said:

No man. I'm banking on him getting better at GM'ing after doing it for 3 years just like we all did at our jobs.

My job wouldn't give a fourth year to show now improvement if I didn't show promise in the first 3.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If he preferred the 2018 class, why d*ck around with Josh McCown?  Why not tank properly, for once?

That, and while you could be fairly confident who'd be in the 2018 class, you couldn't be sure Cousins would be there.  People also thought much more highly of Darnold this time last year than they do now.

Meanwhile, in Macc land, we're sitting pretty to either overpay Cousins or get the 4th QB off the board.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, dcJet said:

This is what a rebuild looks like.  They tore the sh*t down.   I don't know what you expected.   

You know they didn't spend any money last year right?

No.  An ILB, Hackenberg, and back to back safeties is what a directionless rebuild looks like.  And what we expected was to value positions that are actually valuable, not take a bunch of low value players with high-value assets.  Again, no one expected us to be winning.  What we expected was for them to add talent at positions that win football games.  They haven't.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

This is year 2 of the re-rebuild.  Spent no money last year, tank was on and we have lots of salary cap and draft capital this year.  Lets see how it plays out.   If he Idziks the bed, run him out.  

Mac didn't create the need for this rebuild.  Idzik did.  Next rebuild will be on Mac

What exactly are the prior two years called, if this is year 2 of the rebuild?

And again, when you respond with the "competitive rebuild" then please explain to me how "competitive rebuild" is an excuse for two years worth of drafts producing one decent player.

[dcJet]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

I think it is insider knowledge -- but beyond that, the tea leaves say that there was obviously a QB whom we liked enough to make those calls. So if we made that determination -- and made those calls... like, at what point do you say "Just get it done". If the price escalates into so many #1s of the future that it compromises the integrity of the team... Yea, i get it. But if we're talking about mid round picks and pulling out because he couldn't find the spare change.... If you think he's "the guy" make it happen. 

I agree with this.  If you're willing to give the 2 ones, 3 twos and 2 threes... just give the other three alrady

[dcJet]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What exactly are the prior two years called, if this is year 2 of the rebuild?

And again, when you respond with the "competitive rebuild" then please explain to me how "competitive rebuild" is an excuse for two years worth of drafts producing one decent player.

It's not that hard.

Year one was rebuild and try to win with Geno.   Year two was holy sh*t, Fitz got us 10 wins, lets try to win with Fitz.  Year three was, lets rebuild the rebuild.

Yes, his first couple drafts weren't good... no excuse, he needs to draft better.

 

[Paradis]

43 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Well my point is people are quick to point fingers and blame but so many NFL teams fail when addressing the QB position. and there's the small group of teams that just get downright lucky (Pats Seahawks).... Bottom line is the expert tag that so many evaluators are given is not really an expert tag at all its more like a luck tag or who got lucky today. We have QB's that have the Skills but for some reason the QB position comes down to so many more things that just ability the thought process that goes into the position is almost incalculable  at the college level transitioning to the Pro's

So for instance If I'm tooting the horn of Rosen all over these boards and pushing for the Jets to draft him at any cost if he sh*ts the bed can I really criticize Macc ? 

He's being paid millions (literally) of dollars to make that decision/evaluation. So, yes. That's the price that comes with that salary. You wanna be the big cheese, get paid like a rockstar -- better make the right choices. So far, not so much. 

[Pac]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

I'd like to think that when Mac got approval for a real rebuild, he gutted the roster and decided to save his ammo for 2018.  He saw Cousins and the 2018 draft class as better than Watson/Mahomes.  

This is where I differ form some of youze.  Where some of you see incompetence, I see a plan.

Exactly!  Woody admitted blocking the full rebuild when Macc came on and only approved of it last year.  This is the 2nd year and Macc has us in a great position to dramatically improve the team. 

At least wait till May to declare we have the worst roster in the league..  Doing it in March is silly considering it's about to look a whole lot different in about 50 days.

[jgb]

3 hours ago, dcJet said:

This thinking is why we suck for 40 years.  No established GM or coach will come here because we're unstable, so we have to hire rookies.  The rookies learn but make mistakes because that's the nature of the business.  So we fire them and they take the experience we gave them elsewhere, and we get new rookies.  Rinse and Repeat.

Let Mac learn.  I'm tired of tearing it down every 2 years.

I've never heard a Jets fan make the point that the reason we suck is we don't give failures enough time to turn it around. This changes everything. 

[jgb]

59 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Well my point is people are quick to point fingers and blame but so many NFL teams fail when addressing the QB position. and there's the small group of teams that just get downright lucky (Pats Seahawks).... Bottom line is the expert tag that so many evaluators are given is not really an expert tag at all its more like a luck tag or who got lucky today. We have QB's that have the Skills but for some reason the QB position comes down to so many more things that just ability the thought process that goes into the position is almost incalculable  at the college level transitioning to the Pro's

So for instance If I'm tooting the horn of Rosen all over these boards and pushing for the Jets to draft him at any cost if he sh*ts the bed can I really criticize Macc ? 

I'm fine with firing a GM because he's unlucky. Whiffing on a QB can be forgiven if there are hits somewhere.

[dcJet]

 

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

I've never heard a Jets fan make the point that the reason we suck is we don't give failures enough time to turn it around. This changes everything. 

Pete Carroll says hello. 

You're an impatient dude.  This is what a rebuild looks like.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

 

Pete Carroll says hello. 

You're an impatient dude.  This is what a rebuild looks like.

Ah yes the old outlier-as-a-cautionary-tale discussion device. For every Pete Carroll there are 50 Chip Kellys and Kotites. 

Impatient? Only so much as I'm a mortal being with a hard stop. 40 years of waiting. I'd like to see some championship football before I'm in the dirt.

[Jetscreen]

5 hours ago, Paradis said:

What has he done right?

-two terrible QB selections. 1 that will be on NFL top 10 worst picks for the next 50 years.

-Leo and Adams? Helen Keller could have pulled that trigger. Zero strategy. One could even argue neither was the right pick for NYJ

-WR contributions Devin Smith (bad pick), and nobodies. TE that isn't great at either blocking or catching.

-Brandon Shell... i guess thats supposed to be a victory

-a collection of forgettable DBs

-A ILB playing out of position/scheme

-Stewart, a ridiculously over-drafted WR because of 'Bama -- while Kareem Hunt was on the board. Yes, there was many fists on tables that day yelling "Hunt"... he wasn't a secret. We needed a running back. He chose McGuire instead. 

-OG Jarvis harrison. Now in the CFL. 

-D. Simon... I guess that one is stripe on his shoulder?

-Robbie Anderson was not a Macc pick, and he's since shown to be moron

 

What am I missing? Mauldin... lol. Jenkins? What a terror he's been for opposing QBs.

 

This is so ridiculously unfair. 

Leo and Jamal are two good players. Now, maybe they haven't turned into all world studs, but they are still good players with tons of potential.

Brandon Shell IS a victory. Anytime you get a guy who could quite possibly be a decent starter in the 5th round, that's a victory.

Darrin Lee is not playing out of position or scheme, he's just not good enough in ANY scheme. He's too small to play linebacker.

And it's way too soon to be criticizing the 2017 draft. This really is over the top emotional. I think you need to take a step back.

[dcJet]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Ah yes the old outlier-as-a-cautionary-tale discussion device. For every Pete Carroll there are 50 Chip Kellys and Kotites. 

Impatient? Only so much as I'm a mortal being with a hard stop. 40 years of waiting. I'd like to see some championship football before I'm in the dirt.

You and me both Jet-Brother!  

If Mac blows this opportunity, then we're on the same street.  Just you got there sooner.  

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, dcJet said:

You and me both Jet-Brother!  

If Mac blows this opportunity, then we're on the same street.  Just you got there sooner.  

Yeah I don't see a difference between Idzik and Macc.

• Both had some "hits" in the first round. But this is the floor for an NFL GM. You better "hit" on at least 2/3 of your first round selections.
• Both have been absymal outside the first including a comical QB selection in the 2nd.
• Both have had one "find" outside the first: Idzik Enunwa and Macc Robbie Anderson.
• Both have cleared the decks to clear massive cap space.

In fact, Idzik is even a little ahead because he inherited a team in cap hell while Macc found a team with $80M in space and yet, 3 years later... he's got us back to how he found us. Also Geno's selection was less of a league joke than Hack's at the time it was made. So why did Idzik only get 2 years and Macc got extended? Only thing I can think of is he was saved by Trump sending the owner to London for 4 years so he's out of range of the beat writers, billboards and sky writers.