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MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position


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I never understood these threads about "trusting a GM" to draft a QB. He isn't getting fired 6 days before free agency! Has he missed on Hack/Petty, yeah just like the Pats missed on like 6 straight QBs they drafted between Brady and Jimmy G. You know, like the guys named Rohan Davey/Ryan Mallet etc.. Macc hasn't earned my trust, but he also hasn't lost my trust. Most QB picks are "busts." And by Most, i mean like 90pct. 

Whether we hate him, like him or love him, he is getting another chance this off-season. We will know by January if he was successful in Free agency/getting us a QB by then. 

If we go 6-10 and we don't have a franchise QB, he will be gone. If we make the playoffs and/or it's clear that the young QB he drafts is a future star then he will stay.   

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2015 early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one

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31 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I never understood these threads about "trusting a GM" to draft a QB. He isn't getting fired 6 days before free agency! Has he missed on Hack/Petty, yeah just like the Pats missed on like 6 straight QBs they drafted between Brady and Jimmy G. You know, like the guys named Rohan Davey/Ryan Mallet etc.. Macc hasn't earned my trust, but he also hasn't lost my trust. Most QB picks are "busts." And by Most, i mean like 90pct. 

Whether we hate him, like him or love him, he is getting another chance this off-season. We will know by January if he was successful in Free agency/getting us a QB by then. 

If we go 6-10 and we don't have a franchise QB, he will be gone. If we make the playoffs and/or it's clear that the young QB he drafts is a future star then he will stay.   

Problem is he hasn't hit on anything. 2/3 in first rounders. 0 in dozens after the 1st. He gets some credit for FA signing of Robbie Anderson. If you whiff on QBs fine. But too much to ask to get some good players outside of consensus BAP picks at the top of the draft?

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37 minutes ago, jgb said:

Problem is he hasn't hit on anything. 2/3 in first rounders. 0 in dozens after the 1st. He gets some credit for FA signing of Robbie Anderson. If you whiff on QBs fine. But too much to ask to get some good players outside of consensus BAP picks at the top of the draft?

Brandon Shell, Jordan Jenkins. Marcus Maye

And that's not my personal take. That is what I have heard from people in the league

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8 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

He's been ok. Not Great not Idzik level. That is the true answer and it should be the end.

He's a lot closer to a guy who was run out of here as a laughingstock than most want to admit. Really, there isn't that much of a difference when you think about it. Let's hope he finally creates some separation this off season.

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2 hours ago, dcJet said:

It's not that hard.

Year one was rebuild and try to win with Geno.   Year two was holy sh*t, Fitz got us 10 wins, lets try to win with Fitz.  Year three was, lets rebuild the rebuild.

Yes, his first couple drafts weren't good... no excuse, he needs to draft better.

 

Bad FA signings are a different story.  Still doesn't explain how we added so little talent in the 1st two years that could contribute in year 3 and beyond.  No matter what extraneous labels you've added, it doesn't change that the goal is always to add good young talent.  Macc has generally failed in that regard.

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24 minutes ago, jgb said:

He's a lot closer to a guy who was run out of here as a laughingstock than most want to admit. Really, there isn't that much of a difference when you think about it. Let's hope he finally creates some separation this off season.

Idzik only got 2 drafts.  Can only compare that to Macc's 1st two years.  They're both pretty equally inept.

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1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I never understood these threads about "trusting a GM" to draft a QB. He isn't getting fired 6 days before free agency! Has he missed on Hack/Petty, yeah just like the Pats missed on like 6 straight QBs they drafted between Brady and Jimmy G. You know, like the guys named Rohan Davey/Ryan Mallet etc.. Macc hasn't earned my trust, but he also hasn't lost my trust. Most QB picks are "busts." And by Most, i mean like 90pct. 

Whether we hate him, like him or love him, he is getting another chance this off-season. We will know by January if he was successful in Free agency/getting us a QB by then. 

If we go 6-10 and we don't have a franchise QB, he will be gone. If we make the playoffs and/or it's clear that the young QB he drafts is a future star then he will stay.   

The Jets and the Patriots needs and efforts re: QBs really should have been on a level playing field since Brady, so this analogy totally makes sense.

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2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

The Jets and the Patriots needs and efforts re: QBs really should have been on a level playing field since Brady, so this analogy totally makes sense.

So the Patriots were just goofing around when they were drafting QBs? They really weren't trying to get good ones so when the ones they got sucked it was just part of their master plan. Gotcha!

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Just now, JoJoTownsell1 said:

So the Patriots were just goofing around when they were drafting QBs? They really weren't trying to get good ones so when the ones they got sucked it was just part of their master plan. Gotcha!

Yeah, that's the point.  It's not that the Pats had no need to worry about bringing in a high level QB prospects because they were set with a starter, and could draft developmental QBs as needed with no impetus for them to actually play, vs the Jets, who have not had a quality starter in place since the moon landing.  It's that the Pats we're just goofing around.  You are so intelligent!

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2 hours ago, Jetscreen said:

This is so ridiculously unfair. 

Leo and Jamal are two good players. Now, maybe they haven't turned into all world studs, but they are still good players with tons of potential.

Brandon Shell IS a victory. Anytime you get a guy who could quite possibly be a decent starter in the 5th round, that's a victory.

Darrin Lee is not playing out of position or scheme, he's just not good enough in ANY scheme. He's too small to play linebacker.

And it's way too soon to be criticizing the 2017 draft. This really is over the top emotional. I think you need to take a step back.

You addressed what - two players? Show me where the money is. Leo and Jamal were low-brow BPA picks. So what if Leo was rated well, we did not need another DE - that was redundancy at its finest. Brandon is not decent, yet. He graded out poorly last year. 

Darron can play OLB in a 4-3 better than the ILB in a 3-4 base that he gets stuck at often right now.

I know what i'm talking about. We have not drafted well, and building a case for Macc's successes basically starts and ends with two players taken at #6 who required little to no neural involvement. 

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22 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

This guy is so in over his head it's impossible to even be angered when you realize he and the other idiot Bowles were sent by the NFL to try and save and the franchise.  Casserly has to be some kind of sadist to ship this level of ineptitude the Jets way.  You can't blame the owner.  He was given the team in order for him to stay away from his family's corporation.  No one who understands that situation could ever have confidence in him.  He needs his hand held.  Every top drafted selection is made with fear and to ward off personal criticism, since the guy KNOWS he is in over his head.  I always knew he would never draft a QB in the 1st Rd since unless your name is John Elway, if you whiff, you're also losing your job.  I really hope Cousins refuses to come to this sinking ship...Maccagnan and Bowles are going to have to sink or swim based on their own talents (of which there are none), where if they could buy Cousins they'd be buying more excuses and checks they don't deserve.

Woody is awful...reminds me of another place where A's hire A's...B's hire C's.  

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16 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

how can you make a statement like this ? We have 90 + million to spend to fortify the Oline possibly get a WR and possibly a QB who has played very will to this point. W also have a good amount of picks to continue to build the team. If teams like the Rams can turn it around quickly so can the Jets. I little optimism can't hurt Tom.

I mean what would you say if the Jets drafted the QB you wanted and by the difficulty of drafting the position the QB simply didn't work out ? Would you continue to bash Macc ?

Who exactly do you want at QB ? Who exactly do you want us to draft ? How should we spend our money in FA ? Lets hear that first before you try to destroy a GM strapped with an Idiot coach He didn't pick and keeps forcing him in a corner since every draft pick seems to have his name on it.

IMO this team has 2 glaring Issues which happen to be the most important in the NFL a Bad Coach and No QB . Macc has a chance to make good on the QB but he has no say on the HC

The problem is bigger than Macc or Bowles.

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14 minutes ago, Jetscode1 said:

The problem is bigger than Macc or Bowles.

This is clearly true.  

I would have to believe that every high level decision made by a team has substantial input by its owner, if not approval.

High first round draft pick, mega free agent-most owners are involved in those.  

Dorsey will recommend to Haslam who he should take.

If the Giants have a choice between Darnold/Rosen or Barkley-it is Mara/Tisch who should make that.  

But for Mac, he rises or falls pretty simply.

He basically has to outbid Minnesota, but not by stupid money unless Minnesota comes in low.  Cousins will choose Minnesota, but only because the Johnsons are losers.  But if Cousins signs in MN for lower than expected and Mac did not beat it substantially, that is a tough one.  

He needs to make credible offers to the 3rd and 4th picks-above the Trade Value Chart, by a little.  The 2 seconds should at least be enough for either move, if not too much.  If he makes credible offers and the Colts and Browns stand pat and pick, Mac did his best.  If we are outbid by another team making an offer that we should have made so Mac could take Minkah or Nelson, Mac is toast.  

I am resolved to take Allen as a backup plan at 6, although he is definitely not a WCO QB.  If Mac trades up for Allen, that could be a problem.

I think people understand if he trades up at takes Rosen or Mayfield.  Mayfield feels better at 4.  

Can't wait. 

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9 hours ago, Pcola said:

Teams that have found their starting QBs since 2015:

TB, TN, LAR, Phi, Dal, Chi, KC, & Hou.  

Basically 1/4 of the entire league.  So now because we won 5 games with a bunch of short term Jags, we either trade a ton of draft capital to get our QB, or we sit back and take the leftovers after Cle, Den, and possibly the NYG grab theirs.  Unless a team like Buffalo or Miami move up.  

Then we are looking at Teddy Bridgewater as the face of the franchise until training camp when his leg falls off.

Tired of sloppy seconds.

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12 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

This is what I don't understand.  The guy is absolved for his sins because Geno Smith got punched in the face?  Geno was a questionable QB1 at best.  This was not Aaron Rodgers breaking his collarbone.  Geno Smith got his jaw broken in early August 2015.  How does that excuse letting Fitzpatrick hold the team hostage and get that ridiculous contract almost a full year later?  He didn't think it would happen? 

The money from the 2015 FA class was spent prior to Geno getting knocked out. He can't take back the contracts at that point. I think the worst thing that happen to this team was the Geno punch -> career year by Fitz. It gave the team false hope thanks to a weak schedule, Fitz should never have been resigned but it is hard to sell a roster full of vets that we were going to roll with either Hack/Petty/Geno after the year Fitz had.

If that punch was never thrown I think we could have slammed the door shut on Geno and we likely have a worse record than what we had with Fitz. Having a worse record could also mean having a shot at Goff or Wentz. I'm probably reading into it too much but I felt like 2016 was a waste of a season because of what happen in 2015.

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54 minutes ago, Larz said:

15 pages? 

Someday we will learn to use our powers for good lol

So much of it bitching about giving Harvard a one year deal for $12 million during an offseason Casey Keenum is lined up for $18-22 million and would be considered a good idea. Gd bonanza

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On 3/6/2018 at 7:10 PM, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

What is the method to the madness?

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I'd also like to point out how much easier it should be to find replacement contributors when your baseline is the most talent-depleted roster in the league. Macc should donate to Trump's re-election campaign to keep his boss in London through 2024.

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4 hours ago, jgb said:

He's a lot closer to a guy who was run out of here as a laughingstock than most want to admit. Really, there isn't that much of a difference when you think about it. Let's hope he finally creates some separation this off season.

Just 1 question and it starts with WHY in capital letters.  Why the f**k do the NY Jets have to have some rookie greenhorn take over the GM's job (virtually every time)?  For that matter you can say the same for Head Coach.  Is there some kind of Law that I'm unaware of?  There are no Salary Cap restrictions, Ownership could open their bank vault as far as they'd like to pay a real GM, to pay a real Head Coach....but Jet ownership virtually never does.  Why is it that Mark Davis whose basically 1 and only Asset, the Oakland Raiders, was left to him by his father, and he has no problem paying Jon Gruden $10Mill a year, when at the same time the Jets idiot owner who has seen his family's investment in the Jets appreciate over $1Bill in Value since purchase, and J&J in the background, not only won't spring for a top Front Office, if anyone remembers, the year before the idiotic Revis signing he refused to spend the $20Mill Under the Cap that they were on a D-backfield, instead pocketing the money.

For any Jet fans who look at this roster, look at probably the worst Front Office and coaching staff in team history and not see you're getting played, then I feel sorry for you.

The sickest part is that this is all happening in the NY area.  This isn't Milwaukee.  And it's not just the Jets haha.  Daniel Murphy makes himself into one of the top 5 hitters in all of baseball.  Hits bombs off Clayton Kershaw, Grienke and 5 others, hitting HRs in 7 consecutive games and dragging the Mets into the World Series.  Met ownership wouldn't pay him $12Mill/3 years, they said it was either him or Cespedes...couldn't sign them both.  I've boycotted the Mets for I don't know how long, it's way way over a decade, at least until the despicable people who own them Sell (which ain't going to happen).....if this coffee drinking mope doesn't, by dumb luck, deliver a Franchise QB THIS YEAR, who the Sphinx wouldn't know how to Coach anyway.....I'm boycotting the Jets too..because there is no hope.  Who is going to replace Coffee Boy and the Sphinx?  Some other "scout" and Assistant defensive coach?  (That ownership can save money on).

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32 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Just 1 question and it starts with WHY in capital letters.  Why the f**k do the NY Jets have to have some rookie greenhorn take over the GM's job (virtually every time)?  For that matter you can say the same for Head Coach.  Is there some kind of Law that I'm unaware of?  There are no Salary Cap restrictions, Ownership could open their bank vault as far as they'd like to pay a real GM, to pay a real Head Coach....but Jet ownership virtually never does.  Why is it that Mark Davis whose basically 1 and only Asset, the Oakland Raiders, was left to him by his father, and he has no problem paying Jon Gruden $10Mill a year, when at the same time the Jets idiot owner who has seen his family's investment in the Jets appreciate over $1Bill in Value since purchase, and J&J in the background, not only won't spring for a top Front Office, if anyone remembers, the year before the idiotic Revis signing he refused to spend the $20Mill Under the Cap that they were on a D-backfield, instead pocketing the money.

For any Jet fans who look at this roster, look at probably the worst Front Office and coaching staff in team history and not see you're getting played, then I feel sorry for you.

The sickest part is that this is all happening in the NY area.  This isn't Milwaukee.  And it's not just the Jets haha.  Daniel Murphy makes himself into one of the top 5 hitters in all of baseball.  Hits bombs off Clayton Kershaw, Grienke and 5 others, hitting HRs in 7 consecutive games and dragging the Mets into the World Series.  Met ownership wouldn't pay him $12Mill/3 years, they said it was either him or Cespedes...couldn't sign them both.  I've boycotted the Mets for I don't know how long, it's way way over a decade, at least until the despicable people who own them Sell (which ain't going to happen).....if this coffee drinking mope doesn't, by dumb luck, deliver a Franchise QB THIS YEAR, who the Sphinx wouldn't know how to Coach anyway.....I'm boycotting the Jets too..because there is no hope.  Who is going to replace Coffee Boy and the Sphinx?  Some other "scout" and Assistant defensive coach?  (That ownership can save money on).

I'm a long suffering Mets fan also. Look on the bright side, the Mets are STILL paying Bobby Bonilla. ($1.9M a year through 2035!)

Why do I root for teams with horrendous management? Thanks, Dad! @SouthernJet

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23 hours ago, gEYno said:

I really don't understand it at all.  It's like everyone jumped on this hype train about an exceptionally solid and exceptionally unspectacular player.  It's not just a Jets thing either, if we passed, he'd still likely have gone top 10, and I still don't see what was top 10 about the guy's college highlights, let alone tape.

I think if you look at his "tape" you will probably find more to like.  Less negative plays.  He doesn't have the kind of amazing plays (highlight reel) you will get from a guy like Byron Jones (workout warrior), but he will probably have very few negative plays.  Strange thing is, coaches are supposed to want guys they can coach up - Williams, Jenkins and Adams came in as plug and play. We need more guys coached up, and used in ways they can excel even with more limited skills.  

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think if you look at his "tape" you will probably find more to like.  Less negative plays.  He doesn't have the kind of amazing plays (highlight reel) you will get from a guy like Byron Jones (workout warrior), but he will probably have very few negative plays.  Strange thing is, coaches are supposed to want guys they can coach up - Williams, Jenkins and Adams came in as plug and play. We need more guys coached up, and used in ways they can excel even with more limited skills.  

There's not really anything I don't "like" about Jamal Adams as a football player, beyond how he's talking about parades and revolutionizing the position before he's accomplished a single thing in the league.  What I don't like is exactly what you say, in college he doesn't have the kind of amazing plays...

Why are we drafting what you hope to find in round 3 at the 6th overall pick?

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14 hours ago, Jetscreen said:

This is so ridiculously unfair. 

Leo and Jamal are two good players. Now, maybe they haven't turned into all world studs, but they are still good players with tons of potential.

Brandon Shell IS a victory. Anytime you get a guy who could quite possibly be a decent starter in the 5th round, that's a victory.

Darrin Lee is not playing out of position or scheme, he's just not good enough in ANY scheme. He's too small to play linebacker.

And it's way too soon to be criticizing the 2017 draft. This really is over the top emotional. I think you need to take a step back.

I don't think it was ridiculously unfair at all.

Leo and Jamal are good players.  They are at or close to their tons of potential and the team has not seen more than 5 wins in a season and the D has not been particularly good.

Brandon Shell?  Any time you draft a player and he can't possibly be a decent starter, you should be fired.  I understand they aren't all going to be hits, but the guy isn't a hit yet.  He was an underwhelming player.  If he develops, he is a hit, if he turns into Rob Turner or Ben Ijalana - eh. 

Darrin Lee is too small to play LB?  That is a plus for the GM?  Didn't they measure him?  Didn't we call him a fidget right here on draft day? Too small for LB?  Should he be switched to S?  I guess not since they used their next two picks on safeties. 

It's never too early to criticize.  I have heard this excuse about Hackenberg for years.  Yes, Stewart, Hansen, McGuire could still turn out.  Yes the CBs were high upside unlikely projects - still, there were players that could have helped this team sitting there and we whiffed.

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15 hours ago, dcJet said:

It's not that hard.

Year one was rebuild and try to win with Geno.   Year two was holy sh*t, Fitz got us 10 wins, lets try to win with Fitz.  Year three was, lets rebuild the rebuild.

Yes, his first couple drafts weren't good... no excuse, he needs to draft better.

The problem is, he failed at his tasks in years one and two.

Year one: how did they rebuild?  The only player they signed that was worth is contract was Carpenter.  He traded picks for aging guys - Fitzpatrick, Marshall.

Year two he was so excited about Fitzpatrick's 10 wins that he dangled him out there until August?  Why didn't he get Fitzpatrick signed in season?  How did he improve the team otherwise?  Forte for Ivory?  Not exactly looking to the future.  Clady - who was contemplating retirement - for Brick?   A lateral move at best. He whiffed on Beachum and that is where we ended up. Where are the long-term solutions?

Year three he rebuilt the rebuild?  How?  What long term pieces did we add?  Added two safeties? Okay, but we used 6 overall and a high 2nd and there were several rookie safeties rated higher than both.  Traded a guy he should have traded by draft day 2015 for a 2nd and Kearse (who Seattle was probably going to cut). Decent enough move at the time, but a pick during the 2015 draft is worth approximately 3 rounds higher than what we got.  You do the math.  He added a bunch of one year guys (Ealy, Bass) and the only long term signing worth keeping is Winters.  Pryor for Davis?  Eh - plus now we still have to sign Davis.  If Davis and Kerley were worth anything, why did we dump them?  He paid Johnson close to $3M at C and signed Jonotthon Harrison and we literally don't have a C under contract.  Some of his moves seem okay - Beachum performed well for what we gave up, but I hear too much - we had to do this or that.  The GM is supposed to be prepared for every contingency.  This guy is constantly having his hand forced by stiffs like Clady and Fitzpatrick.  They should be begging us, not vice versa. 

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7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think it was ridiculously unfair at all.

Leo and Jamal are good players.  They are at or close to their tons of potential and the team has not seen more than 5 wins in a season and the D has not been particularly good.

Brandon Shell?  Any time you draft a player and he can't possibly be a decent starter, you should be fired.  I understand they aren't all going to be hits, but the guy isn't a hit yet.  He was an underwhelming player.  If he develops, he is a hit, if he turns into Rob Turner or Ben Ijalana - eh. 

Darrin Lee is too small to play LB?  That is a plus for the GM?  Didn't they measure him?  Didn't we call him a fidget right here on draft day? Too small for LB?  Should he be switched to S?  I guess not since they used their next two picks on safeties. 

It's never too early to criticize.  I have heard this excuse about Hackenberg for years.  Yes, Stewart, Hansen, McGuire could still turn out.  Yes the CBs were high upside unlikely projects - still, there were players that could have helped this team sitting there and we whiffed.

What makes you so certain Brandon Shell can't possibly be a decent player? As you said already, he's still developing. And when you draft a player in the 5th round you expect for it to take a few years to develop said player.

Darron Lee is a product of getting Bowles what he wanted IMO. Truth be told, I'll bet Mac wanted an OL and probably would have traded up to get one. Bowles had Mac's ear and he's the one (IMO. I don't know for sure), that persuaded Mac to take Lee. Bowles thought he could use him much in the way he used Buchanon in Arizona. Well, as we're seeing over and over again, Bowles does not know how to correctly evaluate talent. Bowles needs to change up his defensive philosophy to correctly utilize many of his players Williams and Lee and he's unwilling to do so.

And YES, I do think it's way too early to be criticizing the 2017 draft. Adams and Maye played well as rookies and that's about all you can say about it. Do they need to improve? Yes, of course. Can they improve? Who the hell knows? You don't....

 

And I'm with you on hinging drafting to the teams success or failure, but it was Woody that decided to give Mac and Bowles mulligans after the FA approach in 2015/16 blew up in their faces. Blame Woody for allowing them to get away with it.

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11 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

The money from the 2015 FA class was spent prior to Geno getting knocked out. He can't take back the contracts at that point. I think the worst thing that happen to this team was the Geno punch -> career year by Fitz. It gave the team false hope thanks to a weak schedule, Fitz should never have been resigned but it is hard to sell a roster full of vets that we were going to roll with either Hack/Petty/Geno after the year Fitz had.

If that punch was never thrown I think we could have slammed the door shut on Geno and we likely have a worse record than what we had with Fitz. Having a worse record could also mean having a shot at Goff or Wentz. I'm probably reading into it too much but I felt like 2016 was a waste of a season because of what happen in 2015.

So, he was hoping that Geno would suck and we could slam the door shut on him?  What if Geno was Geno, but we had a decent record because of our sh*t schedule?  Do you think he would have noticed?  There is some history of it.  It happened in 2013.  Those tough sell vets were mostly sh*theads he signed or traded for.  **** them.  If you can't deal with their mouths, cut them, suspend them.  They are all gone now, anyway.  Personally, I am fine with players mouthing off, but when you let the inmates run the asylum you are ****ed.  It's his job to make the tough decisions, not fold after months because of Eric Decker's twitter feed. 

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28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Darrin Lee is too small to play LB?  That is a plus for the GM?  Didn't they measure him?  Didn't we call him a fidget right here on draft day? Too small for LB?  Should he be switched to S?  I guess not since they used their next two picks on safeties. 

And I don't recall a single person calling Lee a fidget or whatever it is you're calling him? I wasn't a poster back then but I was looking at the board? What I saw was unanimous praise for selecting Lee. I recall Beerfish and one other poster (his name escapes me) criticizing the pick but that's it. Everyone said Darron Lee was Ryan Shazier. It was a great pick all the way. How wrong could they be?

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27 minutes ago, gEYno said:

There's not really anything I don't "like" about Jamal Adams as a football player, beyond how he's talking about parades and revolutionizing the position before he's accomplished a single thing in the league.  What I don't like is exactly what you say, in college he doesn't have the kind of amazing plays...

Why are we drafting what you hope to find in round 3 at the 6th overall pick?

The thing that scares me is needing a C. 

The best centers are worth late firsts.  There is no reason to pay them crazy money or draft them super high.  Mangold was a sure thing starter at the end of the first.  So was Eiflein and he went in the 3rd. Pocic was a 2nd and seems a solid starter.  The year before Martin was a  starter when not injured picked in the 2nd.  I would avoid spending big money or a high pick on a C, but we probably are going to be boxed - they may have wanted Martin, but the Texans moved ahead of us and we pulled the trigger on Hackenberg.  Ryan Kelly went like 18 overall and had been injured.  Cam Erving is a bust@ #10, but even though he was listed as C, he has played T in the NFL. 

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16 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

What makes you so certain Brandon Shell can't possibly be a decent player? As you said already, he's still developing. And when you draft a player in the 5th round you expect for it to take a few years to develop said player.

Darron Lee is a product of getting Bowles what he wanted IMO. Truth be told, I'll bet Mac wanted an OL and probably would have traded up to get one. Bowles had Mac's ear and he's the one (IMO. I don't know for sure), that persuaded Mac to take Lee. Bowles thought he could use him much in the way he used Buchanon in Arizona. Well, as we're seeing over and over again, Bowles does not know how to correctly evaluate talent. Bowles needs to change up his defensive philosophy to correctly utilize many of his players Williams and Lee and he's unwilling to do so.

And YES, I do think it's way too early to be criticizing the 2017 draft. Adams and Maye played well as rookies and that's about all you can say about it. Do they need to improve? Yes, of course. Can they improve? Who the hell knows? You don't....

 

And I'm with you on hinging drafting to the teams success or failure, but it was Woody that decided to give Mac and Bowles mulligans after the FA approach in 2015/16 blew up in their faces. Blame Woody for allowing them to get away with it.

Talk about ridiculous.

I did not say that Shell could not become a solid starter.  I said he is not one now. If/when he is we can call him a hit.  If we already knew he couldn't be he would be a(nother) miss. Jarvis Harrison comes to mind.  What he is, at this time, is an okay 5th.  Not somebody you hang your hat on when defending your GM.

The sh*t about Bowles is even more fantastic.  I will pass on commenting.  

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10 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

And I don't recall a single person calling Lee a fidget or whatever it is you're calling him? I wasn't a poster back then but I was looking at the board? What I saw was unanimous praise for selecting Lee. I recall Beerfish and one other poster (his name escapes me) criticizing the pick but that's it. Everyone said Darron Lee was Ryan Shazier. It was a great pick all the way. How wrong could they be?

Hold me closer tiny linebacker?  You just named Beerfish and another poster.  That is two.  I KNOW there were more, but I wasn't around much that year. 

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