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MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position


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12 hours ago, Bugg said:

He's a safety, and not an All World gaming changing one at that.  Taking a safety over and edge like Watt or a QB like Watson or Mahomes is criminal mismanagement. 

Fine. But you have to let these players develop first and see what they are. Adams was considered by many people to be the best player in the draft. I had no problem with that pick and still don't.

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2015 early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following

But he did have a legit chance.  He passed on two QBs at 6 that were eventually drafted at 10 and 12 both by teams that invested more picks to trade up to get them.  Both of them saw the field and one

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7 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

He has made good picks. I don't know what that's suppose to mean. I'm not saying Macc has been perfect. He deserves criticism for the Hack pick.

It's supposed to mean he hasn't made good picks.  Because, you know, the team is terrible and devoid of talent, and only won games because of Josh McCown.

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4 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

He did try. He’s on record saying ‘too costly’. He did pass on Watson and Mahomes. Nothing in my post is hypothetical. I don’t do hypothetical arguments, I’m not a half-ass Ape. 

Watson and Mahomes have played a combined 8 games of football so far. I just don't think it's a fireable offense to pass on those guys when they have barely played yet. JMO

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5 minutes ago, nycdan said:

But we DID change our starting QB once under Macc.  We swapped out our 34-year old journeyman for a 38-year old journeyman.

Yep.  We changed starters twice.  The problem is that we signed old guys and never really tried for a long-term solution.  Meanwhile, the Chiefs, Texans, Rams, Eagles, Bucs, Titans, Cowboys and 49ers are all happy with their situations - and we had the opportunity to get most, if not all, of those guys.  The Broncos and Browns are the only teams doing as poorly with the changeover as us - and the Broncos won the Super Bowl Mac's first year.  

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4 hours ago, Jetscreen said:

So it's fates fault that Mac sucks? You mean Mac gets to blame the world and he didn't do anything wrong? The GM and HC are always responsible whether you think it's fair or not.

I didn't say that at all. I'm saying people are mad that he hasn't delivered the team a QB without showing me where he messed up in that process. Whose the guy Macc blew it on? That's my point.

The way I view it is that he walked into a team with a lot of salary cap space and spent unwisely (in hindsight) his first year. The fanbase was tired of losing and he tried to put some bandaids on the team in the hopes for a quick fix or "competitive rebuild". It almost got them to the playoffs year 1 and then the team collapsed year 2. He gutted the roster last off season and here we are with the best chance we've had in a long time to finally find an answer at the QB position. I don't think he's done enough to show me that he shouldn't be the guy making that choice. 

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28 minutes ago, JiF said:

The level of poop is so high in this post that I feel obligated to respond even though others have rejected this notion many times already in the thread.

Since Mac has taken over the Jets, he's been the least active and urgent GM in the entire league in regards to filling the QB position other than the Cardinals.  In fact, every other QB needy team in the entire NFL (Eagles, Rams, Bills, KC, Texans, 49'ers, Vikings, Redskins, Indy, Chicago) all have aggressively addressed the QB position and for the most part, they've been successful.  Literally every single QB needy team has solved their QB issue with options the Jets had while Mac has been the GM.  The only teams who havent at least aggressively tried; Browns and Broncos and they're both in much better positions to fix it this year than the Jets. 

Fair enough. I disagree. 

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17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I completely disagree.  You won't ever contend for a championship the way mccagnan has approached qb.  If Brady and belichick were never around the afc would have been dominated by Peyton and rothlisberger.  You either find a real qb or you're just peddling to keep your job another year.  If mccagnan finds a qb in this year's draft he's got at least 5 years of job security.

Oh don’t get it confused I’m not in agreement with Mac’s approach in regards to how he’s handled the QB position. But I understand WHY he does what he does, he understands the NY market, the goal is to always keep the fans pacified enough while you buy yourself some time. 

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11 hours ago, nycdan said:

Now here's the kicker.  And @dbatesman if you physically recoiled from my last post, then strap yourself in.  

As I suggested earlier and you clearly pointed out, we drafted all middle/run defense.  DT, DT, S, S, ILB.  The Eagles drafted offense and edge/pass defense.

So now let's look at 2017 team rushing defense stats.  Seriously, if you are not sitting down comfortably, do so.

Okay..here we go.

PHI - allowed 79.2 ypg avg.  1st in NFL

NYJ - allowed 117.9 ypg avg. 24th in NFL 

I...have....no....words.

Lets do the Jags since Caldwell got there and they're SB contenders now!!!  LT, QB (followed by 2 WR's in the 2nd), Pass Rusher, Shut down corner, elite RB.  Supplemented similarly to the Eagles with great FA signings - Campbell, Jackson, Church, Bouye, Gipson.  He found his ILB in the 2nd and 5th, Jack and Smith. Found another pass rusher in the 3rd Ngakoue.

Should we post their stats too? lmfao

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3 minutes ago, August said:

Oh don’t get it confused I’m not in agreement with Mac’s approach in regards to how he’s handled the QB position. But I understand WHY he does what he does, he understands the NY market, the goal is to always keep the fans pacified enough while you buy yourself some time. 

The thing is, he hasn't bought any time.  He tried to fool people by touting this BAP philosophy, but all the while he thought he was smarter than everyone else.  Instead of doing whatever he could to get the qb he wanted to truly fix this team and make his mark on the nfl, he fooled himself into believing his best bet to buy time was to think he could find his qbs in any round other than the first round of drafts, which thus allowed him to draft what he considered to be BAP, and then at some point he'd stick in hack or petty and look like even more of a genius.

all he learned is that you usually don't luck into a quality starting qb by eschewing qbs in the first round every year.  And now he's on a prove it or lose it contract one-year thing and he burned 3 previous drafts to try to get it right.  All because his scouting told him that Jamal Adams was worth taking over a qb.

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7 minutes ago, gEYno said:

It's supposed to mean he hasn't made good picks.  Because, you know, the team is terrible and devoid of talent, and only won games because of Josh McCown.

Simply not true. He's made good picks. Williams is a good player, Adams is a good player, Anderson was a very good UDFA signing, McGuire looked good, Shell has potential to be a piece on the line. We'll see about Maye and some of the other guys in last years draft.

The team is low on talent because we are weak at some of the most crucial positions. No QB, no LT, no CB's, no pass rush. Those have to be addressed. But to say the Jets have no talent across the board is an inaccurate statement. And i'm not saying they have a ton of talent on the roster either. But i'm willing to give him one more off season after he completely gutted the roster to try and build it up.

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21 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Which picks were good?  Objectively, the only one is Jenkins.  I don't see how you pat him on the back for picking starters at #6 overall. 

Well i'm going to give him credit for Williams and Adams because they do look like good players but I understand your point. Jenkins is solid, Shell has been improving, I like the McGuire pick, Robby Anderson as an UDFA I give him credit for, and I actually like Charonne Peake and Chad Hansen as well.

We'll see about Darron Lee. He had a really good stretch of football in the middle of last season where he graded out as a top ILB over the course of like 5 weeks. With young players it's about finding that consistency. We'll see if he does.

I'm not saying Macc has done a phenomenal job. I just think he deserves this off season to try and get them going in the right direction.

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4 hours ago, Jetscreen said:

So is it your suggestion that because he hasn't been able to hire his own HC, that he can be GM for as long as he wants and never be held accountable? It is what it is, Mike MacCagnan accepted the Jets GM job. He should be judged as harshly as Bowles is

No. That is not what I'm suggesting. Nice straw man though.

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5 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Simply not true. He's made good picks. Williams is a good player, Adams is a good player, Anderson was a very good UDFA signing, McGuire looked good, Shell has potential to be a piece on the line. We'll see about Maye and some of the other guys in last years draft.

The team is low on talent because we are weak at some of the most crucial positions. No QB, no LT, no CB's, no pass rush. Those have to be addressed. But to say the Jets have no talent across the board is an inaccurate statement. And i'm not saying they have a ton of talent on the roster either. But i'm willing to give him one more off season after he completely gutted the roster to try and build it up.

The team is low on talent b/c offense has been ignored in so many drafts in a row that the team has continually imported qbs/wrs/rbs to compensate, and they get old and slow quickly and keep needing to be replaced in FA.  If they actually had drafted a few competent offensive players in the first few rounds this past decade they would be able to overcome deficiencies in other areas.

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5 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Well i'm going to give him credit for Williams and Adams because they do look like good players but I understand your point. Jenkins is solid, Shell has been improving, I like the McGuire pick, Robby Anderson as an UDFA I give him credit for, and I actually like Charonne Peake and Chad Hansen as well.

We'll see about Darron Lee. He had a really good stretch of football in the middle of last season where he graded out as a top ILB over the course of like 5 weeks. With young players it's about finding that consistency. We'll see if he does.

I'm not saying Macc has done a phenomenal job. I just think he deserves this off season to try and get them going in the right direction.

Look, I get the whole glass half full thing, but Peake and Hansen?  In 3 combined seasons their stats are barely 2 games worth of production.  Peake has 20 for 189, 1 for 3 last year.  Hansen 9 for 94.  Both are under 10 ypc and 55% catch rate.  All those things are pitiful.  I am tired of waiting on players to step up and then hearing we have to give them a 2nd contract.  I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like either can carry Jeremy Kerley's jock. 

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22 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Well i'm going to give him credit for Williams and Adams because they do look like good players but I understand your point. Jenkins is solid, Shell has been improving, I like the McGuire pick, Robby Anderson as an UDFA I give him credit for, and I actually like Charonne Peake and Chad Hansen as well.

We'll see about Darron Lee. He had a really good stretch of football in the middle of last season where he graded out as a top ILB over the course of like 5 weeks. With young players it's about finding that consistency. We'll see if he does.

I'm not saying Macc has done a phenomenal job. I just think he deserves this off season to try and get them going in the right direction.

give him credit

look like good players

solid

improving

I give him credit for

I actually like

really good strech of football

he deserves this offseason

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3 minutes ago, JiF said:

How can you disagree?  I'm stating verifiable facts.  

Because I don't see a move he should have made at the QB position that he didn't make. I don't go off of "well he hasn't got us a QB so fire him". I'm not saying you do or don't but i'm not willing to pull the plug after 3 seasons especially when he gutted the roster last off season and we all knew the team was going to be awful.

 I'm not saying he's done a great job but I don't see the fireable offense he made. Not after 3 seasons. If we are stuck in the same place this time next season i'll be calling for him to be fired. And I also give him credit for passing on some guys people wanted him to get as well. The QB position is the most important position on the team, it's the most important move you'll ever make as a GM. It usually will define your tenure with a team. It's important to pick and invest in the right guy.

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2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I'm not absolving Macc for his short comings but I think missing on Wilson, Coples, Hill, Milliner, Ducasse, Geno, Amaro and Pryor seriously hurt the foundation of this team. Those are selections that should have been difference makers through the last 3 years. 

If those picks were supposed to be difference makers, please point out the difference makers Mac has selected since taking over as GM? I won't debate that I think the talent is better since Mac started making the selections. But I don't see a single player that jumps off the page at you? A lot of very ho hum players. Then, there's the 2016 draft and that's flat out busts in the 1st and 2nd rounds.

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23 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The team is low on talent b/c offense has been ignored in so many drafts in a row that the team has continually imported qbs/wrs/rbs to compensate, and they get old and slow quickly and keep needing to be replaced in FA.  If they actually had drafted a few competent offensive players in the first few rounds this past decade they would be able to overcome deficiencies in other areas.

I agree with that. But that's why I also was happy that Macc purged the roster of exactly those type of players last off season. We got rid of the Deckers and Marshalls and those type of guys. 

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13 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Look, I get the whole glass half full thing, but Peake and Hansen?  In 3 combined seasons their stats are barely 2 games worth of production.  Peake has 20 for 189, 1 for 3 last year.  Hansen 9 for 94.  Both are under 10 ypc and 55% catch rate.  All those things are pitiful.  I am tired of waiting on players to step up and then hearing we have to give them a 2nd contract.  I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like either can carry Jeremy Kerley's jock. 

Hansen played 1 season so far and he's on a team with a coach that loves veterans which I can't stand. I'm just saying I like those players. I'm not giving him credit for great picks. They have to produce. I get that.

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3 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

If those picks were supposed to be difference makers, please point out the difference makers Mac has selected since taking over as GM? I won't debate that I think the talent is better since Mac started making the selections. 

Then we're done here. 

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4 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

give him credit

look like good players

solid

improving

I give him credit for

I actually like

really good strech of football

he deserves this offseason

I'm not really sure what that's suppose to mean. When you draft guys you have to wait for them to develop or not. Then you move on.

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9 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Because I don't see a move he should have made at the QB position that he didn't make. I don't go off of "well he hasn't got us a QB so fire him". I'm not saying you do or don't but i'm not willing to pull the plug after 3 seasons especially when he gutted the roster last off season and we all knew the team was going to be awful.

 I'm not saying he's done a great job but I don't see the fireable offense he made. Not after 3 seasons. If we are stuck in the same place this time next season i'll be calling for him to be fired. And I also give him credit for passing on some guys people wanted him to get as well. The QB position is the most important position on the team, it's the most important move you'll ever make as a GM. It usually will define your tenure with a team. It's important to pick and invest in the right guy.

You're fighting the good fight but the wolf pack is out for blood.  It doesn't matter what you say they are going to counter with asinine "facts" about how Macc should have found Joe Montana by now. 

It's nonsense..  their opinions are rubbish..  the sooner you accept those facts the sooner the JN experience becomes less frustrating.

You can print out this thread, tape it on the wall, blindfold yourself, throw a dart, and hit an asinine post by a wolf pup whining about big bad Macc holding back the Jets from glory.

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54 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Fine. But you have to let these players develop first and see what they are. Adams was considered by many people to be the best player in the draft. I had no problem with that pick and still don't.

Understood and I agree. The 2017 draft should be off limits as they need time to develop. The 2015 and 2016 drafts, however, we can make assessments of those players. My assessment says Williams, Jenkins, and Shell or OK players. The rest are all below average. Not a single player out of both of those drafts have lived up to their draft position.

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40 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The thing is, he hasn't bought any time.  He tried to fool people by touting this BAP philosophy, but all the while he thought he was smarter than everyone else.  Instead of doing whatever he could to get the qb he wanted to truly fix this team and make his mark on the nfl, he fooled himself into believing his best bet to buy time was to think he could find his qbs in any round other than the first round of drafts, which thus allowed him to draft what he considered to be BAP, and then at some point he'd stick in hack or petty and look like even more of a genius.

all he learned is that you usually don't luck into a quality starting qb by eschewing qbs in the first round every year.  And now he's on a prove it or lose it contract one-year thing and he burned 3 previous drafts to try to get it right.  All because his scouting told him that Jamal Adams was worth taking over a qb.

He has bought time, he’s not on the hot seat right? The fans and the media in this market isn’t patient enough for a true rebuild. So buy your time with veteran retread quarterbacks until Hackenberg or Petty steps up or go sign another veteran. That will guarantee enough job security while he buys himself enough time to field a competitive team. 

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18 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Because I don't see a move he should have made at the QB position that he didn't make. I don't go off of "well he hasn't got us a QB so fire him". I'm not saying you do or don't but i'm not willing to pull the plug after 3 seasons especially when he gutted the roster last off season and we all knew the team was going to be awful.

 I'm not saying he's done a great job but I don't see the fireable offense he made. Not after 3 seasons. If we are stuck in the same place this time next season i'll be calling for him to be fired. And I also give him credit for passing on some guys people wanted him to get as well. The QB position is the most important position on the team, it's the most important move you'll ever make as a GM. It usually will define your tenure with a team. It's important to pick and invest in the right guy.

Dude...there were literally 15 options he could have made at QB since he's taken over.  Every team that has been QB-less has been ultra aggressive, except for Mac.  This isnt a debate.  It's proof solid based on facts.

He gutted a roster of players he acquired who all failed and were not long term solutions.  He made that bed.  Nobody else.  And that doesnt excuse not even attempting to fix the QB position with multiple options last year.

And I dont know how you cant state the bold while excusing Mac's non-attempts at finding a QB.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Mac needs to spend like a drunken sailor to keep his job beyond this year.  He needs cousins, allen robinson, jarvis landry etc.

He needs to spend every penny and make the playoffs next year or him and bowles are toast.

I think he has a better job of hanging around for a while if he drafts a QB in the first round and lets him start, because people will be more patient.  7-9 with Cousins could mean his job,  7-9 with Mayfield or Rosen might get him two more years.

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1 hour ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

But where did he fail is my point? My point is he's never really took a swing. That's all.

The $80 million he spent in year 1 is a fair point. If you want him fired over that then that's fair. 

Watching 3 strikes go by is a strikeout.

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51 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

If those picks were supposed to be difference makers, please point out the difference makers Mac has selected since taking over as GM? I won't debate that I think the talent is better since Mac started making the selections. But I don't see a single player that jumps off the page at you? A lot of very ho hum players. Then, there's the 2016 draft and that's flat out busts in the 1st and 2nd rounds.

It's the issue with the thought process with those picks. Milliner was injury prone before that pick was made. Wilson is a CB from Boise State, not exactly top tier talent in that conference. Coples should never have been taken, Jets fans were pounding the table for Ingram. Hill barely had any receptions in college we took him because he was a combine freak. Ducasse may not be able to spell his name let alone play football. These picks just made no sense. Geno was throwing screen passes at WVU all day, he's lucky to have had Tavon and Bailey. Then we hear about how he made a big stink about falling out of the first round, that is not a QB I want to lead my team. Amaro looked like a good pick at the time but he flopped hard, I can give a pass on that one.

I can justify Leo, Smith, Lee, Adams, and Maye, maybe not over a QB but I understand wanting to see Hack before throwing a 1st at QBs you didn't feel comfortable with. Hack is the one pick that leaves us scratching our heads because the chances of a QB panning out in the late 2nd are so small. That pick should have been used elsewhere, it would have allowed us to attack QB in 2017.

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2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

What FA's would you have had us target in 2015 instead?

If the power is out for 10 hours I don't start digging up my front yard, I call up the power company and give them Hell.

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6 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

It's the issue with the thought process with those picks. Milliner was injury prone before that pick was made. Wilson is a CB from Boise State, not exactly top tier talent in that conference. Coples should never have been taken, Jets fans were pounding the table for Ingram. Hill barely had any receptions in college we took him because he was a combine freak. Ducasse may not be able to spell his name let alone play football. These picks just made no sense. Geno was throwing screen passes at WVU all day, he's lucky to have had Tavon and Bailey. Then we hear about how he made a big stink about falling out of the first round, that is not a QB I want to lead my team. Amaro looked like a good pick at the time but he flopped hard, I can give a pass on that one.

I can justify Leo, Smith, Lee, Adams, and Maye, maybe not over a QB but I understand wanting to see Hack before throwing a 1st at QBs you didn't feel comfortable with. Hack is the one pick that leaves us scratching our heads because the chances of a QB panning out in the late 2nd are so small. That pick should have been used elsewhere, it would have allowed us to attack QB in 2017.

Were you planning on answering my question?

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Some of the OP criticisms aren't really valid (thank GOD he didn't trade the farm for Goff because if he were our QB he'd look like he did as a rookie and not they way he did last year) but the overall point that Maccagnan has been dreadful at QB evaluation stands. Frankly, there just isn't much compelling evidence that Mac and Bowles deserved their extensions and probably should have been fired.

Oh well. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

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