MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Right? I did the same and felt silly commenting on a stupid highlight video, but his freaking highlight video is just clips of him running up and aggressively wrapping up running backs who were catching outlet passes in the flat. Usually those videos feature huge hits and interception/kick returns, but no.

I think the thing with Adams is that he has insanely low bust potential.  He is not a special athlete, but he is "good enough."  Everything else is there, and I don't think any prognosticator sees him as any less than a long-term starter.  Nobody wants to have 30 players rated higher and 10 never play a down in the NFL, so he is highly rated.  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Well aware

Glad we got that sorted

[ScarletKnight89]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

2015 = Cousins was available. RGIII was the starter and the HC announced as much — effectively inviting all trade offers to come forth. Things didn’t change in the pecking order there until several months later. In doing so, he’d also have been in a position to lock him up for far less than the $30m he’s in line for right now. It’s likely even a dope like Macc would have done so right after surrendering a high 2nd rounder (or whatever it would’ve been) to get him.

2016 = he turned down a trade offer to move up to #1 (which incidentally would have solved all the following problems at once: drafting D.Lee, drafting Hackenberg, extending Mo at $18.5m/year, embarrassing negotiations with Fitz, signing Fitz for $12m, signing McCown for $8m, and he’d have this year’s #1 pick (plus perhaps even more, if he ends up trading up from #6) to do what he pleases with a non-QB in round 1. Oh yeah, and a tiny little thing: two consecutive 5-win seasons which also came with no credibly optimisic hope for a future QB in sight. Also passed on 2 QBs taken after Hackenberg in this draft, who are each infinitely more successful.

2017 = passed on Mahomes and Watson. For all your doubt as to their future career prospects, as of today those are at worst on par with anybody the Jets are going to end up with in 2018. 

So I count, what is that, 6 starting QBs that were available to him (not even counting Brisset): Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson. 

Maccagnan is the absolute worst.

I'm not going to penalize a guy for trades that may or may not have been there to be made. You want to get on him for passing on Watson and Mahomes then that's fair but to me I don't think not making a potential trade to move up to number 1 is a fireable offense.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think the thing with Adams is that he has insanely low bust potential.  He is not a special athlete, but he is "good enough."  Everything else is there, and I don't think any prognosticator sees him as any less than a long-term starter.  Nobody wants to have 30 players rated higher and 10 never play a down in the NFL, so he is highly rated.  

Like the Honda Civic of draft prospects.

[jgb]

Just now, ScarletKnight89 said:

I'm not going to penalize a guy for trades that may or may not have been there to be made. You want to get on him for passing on Watson and Mahomes then that's fair but to me I don't think not making a potential trade to move up to number 1 is a fireable offense.

Call it simplistic but no franchise QB after 3 years = fail. Could I do better? No. But I'm not an NFL GM. He's supposed to be good at this and is paid like it.

[ScarletKnight89]

10 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

Which was fine.  But then he goes out and signs Josh McCown for some strange reason.  Totally idiotic move.

I didn't like the McCown move when it was made either. But I blame Bowles more for going with him as long as he did. 

[ScarletKnight89]

8 hours ago, legler82 said:

And when they do Mac apologists will just spout hindsight is 20/20.

Not me. 

It depends on what our situation looks like as well.

[ScarletKnight89]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Call it simplistic but no franchise QB after 3 years = fail. Could I do better? No. But I'm not an NFL GM. He's supposed to be good at this and is paid like it.

If you want him fired that's totally fair. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just don't really think he's struck out yet at finding a QB. He hasn't really gone after that guy. He's played it safe I guess but that's an important investment to make. You gotta be right with the guy you choose. This to me is the off season where it's time to deliver. 1. It's his 4th year. 2. It seems like the pieces are there this off season. JMO

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

If you want him fired that's totally fair. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just don't really think he's struck out yet at finding a QB. He hasn't really gone after that guy. He's played it safe I guess but that's an important investment to make. You gotta be right with the guy you choose. This to me is the off season where it's time to deliver. 1. It's his 4th year. 2. It seems like the pieces are there this off season. JMO

He thought he had it right with Christian Hackenberg.  That's why we didn't take a QB last draft.  Because of Christian Hackenberg.

Let that soak in for a second.  

[ZachEY]

33 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Right? I did the same and felt silly commenting on a stupid highlight video, but his freaking highlight video is just clips of him running up and aggressively wrapping up running backs who were catching outlet passes in the flat. Usually those videos feature huge hits and interception/kick returns, but no.

I really don't understand it at all.  It's like everyone jumped on this hype train about an exceptionally solid and exceptionally unspectacular player.  It's not just a Jets thing either, if we passed, he'd still likely have gone top 10, and I still don't see what was top 10 about the guy's college highlights, let alone tape.

[FidelioJet]

21 minutes ago, jgb said:

Call it simplistic but no franchise QB after 3 years = fail. Could I do better? No. But I'm not an NFL GM. He's supposed to be good at this and is paid like it.

Honeslty I think it is a bit more complicated...and a very bad and unexpected set of circumstances hit Mac.  He was in an impossible situation.

Year one - Geno gets hurt so he goes with Fitz - this was supposed to be year one of the "competitive" rebuild - whatever that means - but, to me, that reeks of Woody.  But Fitz goes on to have a career year - wins 10 games - more or less postponing the necessary rebuild.  

Too many people in hindsight are calling Mac an idiot for paying Fitz - but the VAST majority of this board and Jet fans LOVED "Fitzmagic" - there was simply NO WAY he could have let him walk without having hell-fire come down on him.  Even if he hated him - he had no real choice but to pay him.

Year two - was a negative product of year one's success.  He couldn't continue the rebuild - as they were now expected to get to the playoffs - they had to keep vets they likely would have cut, brought in FA to help them win now. The Hack miss was bad - but GM's miss on QB's all the time.

Year 3 - finally starts the rebuild they should have done in year one. Cleaned house.  And seems prepared to get us our franshise QB

I'm not saying he's been great but it really was a strange set of circumstances that got us here and I'm not prepared to call him a bad GM quite yet.  This is a huge year though.

[ZachEY]

18 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

I don't see the 3 strikes but ok. He gutted the roster entirely last year. Nobody expected the team to win. If you wanted him fired after 2016 then that's fair but if you were going to judge him on last year I don't know why you would. We knew they were going to be awful.

You can be upset that he started his second rebuild by doubling down on the least valuable position on the field, no?

Most people aren't upset that they weren't good last year.  They're upset because there's literally nothing on this roster, and no apparent plan, that makes you think that this year can be any better, and the year after that will be any better.

[CTM]

9 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I really don't understand it at all.  It's like everyone jumped on this hype train about an exceptionally solid and exceptionally unspectacular player.  It's not just a Jets thing either, if we passed, he'd still likely have gone top 10, and I still don't see what was top 10 about the guy's college highlights, let alone tape.

Most people are idiots who follow consensus or established thinking. 

What is more interesting to me is that you could rationalize and say hey, people like minimizing risk. Taking a solid high character player with low bust potentially is significantly less risky early as people don't lose their jobs over such picks. However, these same guys are now salivating over Josh Allen who is a prototypical boom or bust player (who is more likely to bust imo), so it seems inconsistent.  However, I think taking the project QB buys you job security for 3 years, which is what all of this comes down to for a lot of these guys. So it's really not as risky as it first appears.

I know there are a million platitudes about risk taking, but it often comes down having the will to take risk as what separates the wheat from the chaff. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, CTM said:

Most people are idiots who follow consensus or established thinking. 

What is more interesting to me is that you could rationalize and say hey, people like minimizing risk. Taking a solid high character player with low bust potentially is significantly less risky early as people don't lose their jobs over such picks. However, these same guys are now salivating over Josh Allen who is a prototypical boom or bust player (who is more likely to bust imo), so it seems inconsistent.  However, I think taking the project QB buys you job security for 3 years, which is what all of this comes down to for a lot of these guys. So it's really not as risky as it first appears.

I know there are a million platitudes about risk taking, but it often comes down having the will to take risk as what separates the wheat from the chaff. 

I think the guys we read and listen to hype and unhype many of the same players.  It is a long process and they need to generate hits, so the same players jump around on their boards.  Casual people around here think that these guys blowing up are combine warriors, but IMO the talking heads actually wait to tout the guys that will blowup so they have more to talk about. It's not much of surprise when most of these guys run fast. 

[Pac]

How is this 10 pages?

In 15' the Jets were fortunately not in a position to draft Winston or Mariotta so took a 4th round flyer on Petty.  The other drafted QBs were Garrett Grayson, Brett Hundley, Sean Mannion and Trevor Siemian.  

In 16' they tried to trade up for Wentz and were outbid.  They astutely avoided touching Paxton Lynch despite the cries to draft him.  They picked Hack with a late 2nd round pick.  Of the 10 QB's drafted after Hack was picked only 2 have done anything at all.  Dak looked good when team fully in tact, not so great when it's not.  Brissett played but led a Colt team to 3 wins that Luck was routinely leading to 10-12 wins.  Where's the inexcusable whiff?

In 17' they passed on Watson and Mahomes.  Watson had a great stretch of games resulting in a 3-4 record and we have no idea what Mahomes will do.

So again...  Here it is.  This is the irrefutable proof that Macc doesn't value the QB position.  

 

[ScarletKnight89]

20 minutes ago, gEYno said:

You can be upset that he started his second rebuild by doubling down on the least valuable position on the field, no?

Most people aren't upset that they weren't good last year.  They're upset because there's literally nothing on this roster, and no apparent plan, that makes you think that this year can be any better, and the year after that will be any better.

I like the Adams pick. But he needs to be a high caliber player for it to be worthy of the 6th overall selection. If there was a pick I didn't like that he made it would have been Williams at 6th overall in 2015 because of the position and the players we already had on the roster. 

I agree the roster lacks talent. But like I said, i'm giving him this off season to move it in the right direction. 

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, Pac said:

How is this 10 pages?

In 15' the Jets were fortunately not in a position to draft Winston or Mariotta so took a 4th round flyer on Petty.  The other drafted QBs were Garrett Grayson, Brett Hundley, Sean Mannion and Trevor Siemian.  

In 16' they tried to trade up for Wentz and were outbid.  They astutely avoided touching Paxton Lynch despite the cries to draft him.  They picked Hack with a late 2nd round pick.  Of the 10 QB's drafter after Hack was picked only 2 have done anything at all.  Dak looked good when team fully in tact, not so great when it's not.  Brissett played but led a Colt team to 3 wins that Luck was routinely leading to 10-12 wins.  Where's the inexcusable whiff?

In 17' they passed on Watson and Mahomes.  Watson had a great stretch of games resulting in a 3-4 record and we have no idea what Mahomes will do.

So again...  Here it is.  This is the irrefutable proof that Macc doesn't value the QB position.  

 

Which would explain why every other position on the roster is rock-solid. 

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, Pac said:

How is this 10 pages?

In 15' the Jets were fortunately not in a position to draft Winston or Mariotta so took a 4th round flyer on Petty.  The other drafted QBs were Garrett Grayson, Brett Hundley, Sean Mannion and Trevor Siemian.  

In 16' they tried to trade up for Wentz and were outbid.  They astutely avoided touching Paxton Lynch despite the cries to draft him.  They picked Hack with a late 2nd round pick.  Of the 10 QB's drafted after Hack was picked only 2 have done anything at all.  Dak looked good when team fully in tact, not so great when it's not.  Brissett played but led a Colt team to 3 wins that Luck was routinely leading to 10-12 wins.  Where's the inexcusable whiff?

In 17' they passed on Watson and Mahomes.  Watson had a great stretch of games resulting in a 3-4 record and we have no idea what Mahomes will do.

So again...  Here it is.  This is the irrefutable proof that Macc doesn't value the QB position.  

 

mccags thought he could restock the talent by not dealing up multiple picks to get to 1 or 2, and that approach can buy you a little time if the guys you draft don't suck.  but now he's in draft 4 and too many other teams have found qbs in the past 3 drafts and show me a gm who keeps his job more than this if he does not inherit a starting qb and fails to find one after 4 drafts.  

show me a new gm who has no qb, who doesn't even draft a qb in the first round 4 consecutive years.  it doesn't happen.

[Sperm Edwards]

22 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

give me a run down of what you think would be good moves this off season . 

Regardless of the odds who do you want at QB ? 

Who do you want to sure up the Oline ?

Who do you want at WR and at RB ?

Criticize is all most do around here I would love to see what all the critical thinkers have to say and how the players they think would make a difference pan out. problem is we never see that here. All we see is the Negative with no real ideas or possibilities put forth . Its a great way to keep complaining without ever having to answer for anything. 

My choice at QB is Josh Rosen who's your's ?

I would like to see the OL upgraded with Jensen and a few second round picks

I would also like to see the Jets target a WR in free agency and a RB in round 2 as well.

Is that far fetched ? If we get Cousins I would like to see all the same things happen but maybe luck into Chubbs or Barkley at 6

Once again a little luck needed but not that far fetched.

First off, I’m at a loss on rating the QBs because all I have to go by is others’ opinions. I’ve never seen a full game - or even an entire half-game - with any of these prospects. On the contrary, it’s the GM’s job to not only do so, but also to scrutinize over them. 

As much of a cop-out as that seems, it dramatically affects what the Jets do at #6 (which itself will change over the next 5-6 weeks as news cycles shuffle prospects’ rankings around further. 

Next, start with the premise that Cousins is not signable without a 5 year guarantee or something I’d never advocate. What I’m left with is taking the leftover at #6 - if all 4 of the “top” prospects don’t go by #5 - or trade up. I’m behind trading up in those scenarios, and worry less about next year’s 1st rounder because drafting the right QB is ideally a 15-year investment. The plan outside of that depends greatly on this decision.

Without attaching draftee names, take the best QB we can at #6 and let’s say even if trading up costs next year’s #1; beyond that it’s impossible to say what it’d cost to move up or how necessary it is in the first place. So I’m committed to drafting a QB, meaning I want help around him.

March offseason (some of which I absolutely have outlined in prior posts, despite your guess to the contrary): 

• If there’s an area I’m ok over-bidding on in FA it’s the OL (if we’re getting quality, not overbidding for forgettable talents like Winters). Top priority is Norwell. I’m guessing he’ll cost ~$13m but without insider info on pre-FA bidding it’s a guess. If it takes another million to snag him, well this flexibility is what a warchest of $100 is supposed to buy. No he’s not worth $14m, but he’s worth $14m more than Cromartie was worth $7m (at 2015 rates no less), as well as mor than Winters is worth $7.5m or Mo was worth $18.5m... Further, his $13-14m isn’t a net cost, at least in 2018, since I’d recover $5m in cutting Carpenter an hour later. If he’s signable for less, even better.
• At the other guard slot, we’re locked into paying Winters (and I’m going on the guess he’ll be 100% healthy come August 1st), so this is the guard position I’d address in the draft, in rounds 2-4 depending on how things shake loose (impossible to predict in early March). The idea is to replace Winters in 2019 with a 2018 draft pick.
• Center = depends on the numbers. The more prudent plan would have been to draft one last year instead of waiting until there was nobody even penciled in for 2018, but this is the mess Maccagnan made. Swanson and Richburg are adequate starters when on the field (though I don’t have an MRI report on either’s post-concussive situation. If medically cleared, I’m open to mimicking the same as for LG (overpay by a million or so to be the top bidder). But better still IMO would be to sign a solid older starter I expect to get worse in a year or so - Sullivan - and then there’s allegedly supposed to be >1 good option at center by our top pick in round 2. I’d be ok moving up from there as well if it’s getting to close. Sullivan shouldn’t be crazy money, but regardless it won’t be crazy long-term money, and I don’t want a rookie QB feeling the recent pressure up the gut that Jets QBs have felt. I’d lean towards this latter option, but would be open to Swanson/Richburg depending on the rate/risk.
• So long term this should shore up the 3 interior OL positions both long and short term, without dropping a #6 pick on a guard (I’m using that pick - and potentially next year’s #1 if necessary - for a QB). I’ve spent guess ~$13m on one guard, $8m on Sullivan (but I have no idea what a solid but older guard gets yet). I’ve used one 2nd rounder and another pick between rounds 2-4.  This leaves 2 tackle positions. The good news is these are the 2 best OLmen from the 2017 Jets, and both are under contract for low $. The bad news is they’re still not good and I wouldn’t want to simply hand both of them the starting job again. I haven’t looked over these options in detail yet, in the draft or FA, but a quick look says there are a good handful of FA tackles (mostly RTs, as usual) that would be more than adequate. I don’t have a name for you yet, but after each is signed and I’m in better position to know what it’d have taken to sign each I can render an opinion prior to seeing how they do in the upcoming season. One of our incumbents is also going to have to stay on, because it’s just impractical to instantly replace 5 OL starters in 1 offseason. It’s great to say look to the later rounds in the draft for a RT, but low percentage tries (from someone who knows next to nothing about these prospects) is not a plan.
• RB = I don’t have a name because I don’t know yet who’s going to be there at what point in the draft. So like I said the 2019 replacement for Winters should come in rounds 2-4, that’s weighed against who else is there at other positions and RB is a prime example of that. We have McGuire (meh so far) and Powell (just ok but I’d at least hang onto him until I have his replacement; there’s nothing in it for the team to drop him prior to May). I have mild interest in Hyde, but openly admit I don’t watch him regularly and it’s based on stats more than qualitiative analysis on more routine plays.
• WR = as much as we could use an upgrade, I think this is less of an urgency. Most important for a QB is having multiple decent options, even if none are elite or “true #1” types. I think a trio of that dipshit Anderson, Kearse, and Enunwa - plus 2 WRs I’m inheriting from 2017’s draft - are enough to hold off shooting my wad on a big name just yet. That said, it depends what the options are in FA or the draft. As of today am unsatisfied with this group long term as-is, but I can’t clean up 3 (ok 5) years of messes in 1 offseason, even with the magic $100m.
• TE = this is far more of a necessity. I outlined an offer for ASJ in another thread last week, but that wouldn’t be my first option. What would be better balance for our meh WR crew. First I’m looking at Graham and Burton (even though the former’s best days are likely behind him, he’s an instant upgrade, draws attention from the defense, and isn’t going to get crazy long-term guarantees). My limit is ~$10m/year for either. If both are nutty prices or they simply don’t want to come here, ASJ is my backup with low guarantees and upside if he shows something (again, see the other thread), and if so I have to draft one or see who’s available via trade b/c he just isn’t that good. If none of those are options at the outlined numbers, I’d have to visit options for them or others again at that time.
• other QBs = don’t spend much. If I’m investing this heavily in a QB in the draft I’m all in. Plus I don’t want the temptation to actually use this veteran other than maybe slow-dealing the rookie into the starting role by 1-4 weeks. I let the bigger names float around and take one from the next tier (or the tier after that, lol). I’m not using another pick on a QB even later. At best a UDFA, otherwise I guess Petty or Hack for #3 and I have no thumb on that scale. 

So what have I spent so far? Say $23m on G/C, either $0 or maybe up to $10-12m on a T (admittedly, it’s likely a RT) depending on who it is and my options, so that’s $23-35m. Another $10m on a TE = $33-45m, and toss in $3-5m on a backup QB just because, and another ~$5m for my 1st round pick QB. That’s my year 1 for the offense and I’m at ~$50m give or take.

Then the defense I’ll have to do later because I have to get some work done. Happy now?

[jgb]

57 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

If you want him fired that's totally fair. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just don't really think he's struck out yet at finding a QB. He hasn't really gone after that guy. He's played it safe I guess but that's an important investment to make. You gotta be right with the guy you choose. This to me is the off season where it's time to deliver. 1. It's his 4th year. 2. It seems like the pieces are there this off season. JMO

Yeah. My point is you can't preempt criticism by not trying. If its not a GM's job to find a franchise QB, then what is his job?

[jgb]

33 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Honeslty I think it is a bit more complicated...and a very bad and unexpected set of circumstances hit Mac.  He was in an impossible situation.

Year one - Geno gets hurt so he goes with Fitz - this was supposed to be year one of the "competitive" rebuild - whatever that means - but, to me, that reeks of Woody.  But Fitz goes on to have a career year - wins 10 games - more or less postponing the necessary rebuild.  

Too many people in hindsight are calling Mac an idiot for paying Fitz - but the VAST majority of this board and Jet fans LOVED "Fitzmagic" - there was simply NO WAY he could have let him walk without having hell-fire come down on him.  Even if he hated him - he had no real choice but to pay him.

Year two - was a negative product of year one's success.  He couldn't continue the rebuild - as they were now expected to get to the playoffs - they had to keep vets they likely would have cut, brought in FA to help them win now. The Hack miss was bad - but GM's miss on QB's all the time.

Year 3 - finally starts the rebuild they should have done in year one. Cleaned house.  And seems prepared to get us our franshise QB

I'm not saying he's been great but it really was a strange set of circumstances that got us here and I'm not prepared to call him a bad GM quite yet.  This is a huge year though.

Excuses are the crutch of the weak. Do we have a franchise QB? Answer is no. Bonus fail is we are no better than when he took over 3 years ago with $80M. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

I'm not going to penalize a guy for trades that may or may not have been there to be made. You want to get on him for passing on Watson and Mahomes then that's fair but to me I don't think not making a potential trade to move up to number 1 is a fireable offense.

They were there. The idea that trades are available only for other teams and not for the Jets is weak. The Rams traded up from #15 to #1 and they didn’t have a Mo Wilkerson to dangle as trade bait.

It’s not that 1 trade up to #1 - bad as it is - it’s that there are so many repeated failures. Any one of them would have been a solution and he went with Petty, Hackenberg, Fitzpatrick, and McCown over that span of time. 

Cumulatively, that is more than fireable. But our dipshit owners felt this history was deserving of a reward for both the GM and HC.

[ZachEY]

13 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

I like the Adams pick. But he needs to be a high caliber player for it to be worthy of the 6th overall selection. If there was a pick I didn't like that he made it would have been Williams at 6th overall in 2015 because of the position and the players we already had on the roster. 

I agree the roster lacks talent. But like I said, i'm giving him this off season to move it in the right direction. 

So, if you didn't like the Williams pick, then there's an argument to be made that Adams was his 1st good pick.  Which, a lot of people don't like.  And thus far, he has not shown he can be a high caliber player.  He's shown that he can be a solid strong safety.

[ZachEY]

16 minutes ago, Pac said:

How is this 10 pages?

In 15' the Jets were fortunately not in a position to draft Winston or Mariotta so took a 4th round flyer on Petty.  The other drafted QBs were Garrett Grayson, Brett Hundley, Sean Mannion and Trevor Siemian.  

In 16' they tried to trade up for Wentz and were outbid.  They astutely avoided touching Paxton Lynch despite the cries to draft him.  They picked Hack with a late 2nd round pick.  Of the 10 QB's drafted after Hack was picked only 2 have done anything at all.  Dak looked good when team fully in tact, not so great when it's not.  Brissett played but led a Colt team to 3 wins that Luck was routinely leading to 10-12 wins.  Where's the inexcusable whiff?

In 17' they passed on Watson and Mahomes.  Watson had a great stretch of games resulting in a 3-4 record and we have no idea what Mahomes will do.

So again...  Here it is.  This is the irrefutable proof that Macc doesn't value the QB position.  

 

 

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Which would explain why every other position on the roster is rock-solid. 

Pretty much this.  Give Macc a pass for failing at the QB position thus far if you like.  Do you double down on that pass for failing at improving the roster from the one he took over?

[Pac]

9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

mccags thought he could restock the talent by not dealing up multiple picks to get to 1 or 2, and that approach can buy you a little time if the guys you draft don't suck.  but now he's in draft 4 and too many other teams have found qbs in the past 3 drafts and show me a gm who keeps his job more than this if he does not inherit a starting qb and fails to find one after 4 drafts.  

show me a new gm who has no qb, who doesn't even draft a qb in the first round 4 consecutive years.  it doesn't happen.

I just showed you all the QB's drafted the last few years.  Exactly 1 team has found their QB that Macc was in a position to draft (Cowboys).  He aggressively tried to trade up for the best looking QB the last few years and was outbid.  So much for not being able to see talent at QB.

All that said I'm switching to your side if Macc misses out on Cousins then refuses to draft a QB at 6.  I just don't see that happening.

 

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They were there. The idea that trades are available only for other teams and not for the Jets is weak. The Rams traded up from #15 to #1 and they didn’t have a Mo Wilkerson to dangle as trade bait.

It’s not that 1 trade up to #1 - bad as it is - it’s that there are so many repeated failures. Any one of them would have been a solution and he went with Petty, Hackenberg, Fitzpatrick, and McCown over that span of time. 

Cumulatively, that is more than fireable. But our dipsh*t owners felt this history was deserving of a reward for both the GM and HC.

just goes to show you how the low the bar is set by the former gms on this team.  that's what happens when your first round picks are sanchez/gholston/kyle wilson/sheldon/milliner and throw in 2nd round failures which are too sad to list.  so if mccags drafts williams/adams and a few other guys who are contributing, that's enough to give the guy another shot.  and then mccags gets in the owners' ears and says he hasn't really tried yet to get a franchise qb, but this year is the year.  and now here we are, he's down to his last draft if he screws it up and hopefully cousins doesn't give him a free pass from having to draft a qb.

[Pac]

4 minutes ago, gEYno said:

 

Pretty much this.  Give Macc a pass for failing at the QB position thus far if you like.  Do you double down on that pass for failing at improving the roster from the one he took over?

There's not much I can say to you guys when you believe Jamal Adams is terrible and the roster is devoid of talent.

I disagree.  And when the Jets are a 10 win team next year you might as well.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Pac said:

I just showed you all the QB's drafted the last few years.  Exactly 1 team has found their QB that Macc was in a position to draft (Cowboys).  He aggressively tried to trade up for the best looking QB the last few years and was outbid.  So much for not being able to see talent at QB.

All that said I'm switching to your side if Macc misses out on Cousins then refuses to draft a QB at 6.  I just don't see that happening.

 

it's unclear how aggressively he tried to trade up.  my guess is he didn't put petal to the metal.  that's not him, but he may have to this year.

mccags likes to window shop, ask how much stuff costs, pretend is willing to pay that amount, but then looks for bargains.  he goes shopping needing jeans and a button down shirt but comes home with overalls, a ski mask and a bathing suit and says 'honey, you won't believe the deals i got on this stuff!"

[ScarletKnight89]

9 minutes ago, gEYno said:

So, if you didn't like the Williams pick, then there's an argument to be made that Adams was his 1st good pick.  Which, a lot of people don't like.  And thus far, he has not shown he can be a high caliber player.  He's shown that he can be a solid strong safety.

But I don't think Williams is a bad player. It was definitely not a bad pick. My point is that I had more problems with that pick then I did with the Adams pick.

Macc has been far from perfect. I get it. I'm not trying to convince anyone that he's done a great job.

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, Pac said:

There's not much I can say to you guys when you believe Jamal Adams is terrible and the roster is devoid of talent.

I disagree.  And when the Jets are a 10 win team next year you might as well.

No one (or at least very few) think Jamal Adams is terrible.  They think Jamal Adams is okay and plays a low value position.  And the team has very few players that, were they gone tomorrow, you'd miss.  To that end, the biggest one, may actually be gone tomorrow.

If the Jets sign Cousins, they have a shot at being a 10 win team.  If they do not, you'll quickly back down on that number.  My personal feelings on the Cousin's signing are mixed.  Will definitely improve the team, but not sure he'll provide the value his cap charge demands.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

But I don't think Williams is a bad player. It was definitely not a bad pick. My point is that I had more problems with that pick then I did with the Adams pick.

Macc has been far from perfect. I get it. I'm not trying to convince anyone that he's done a great job.

Yes, but it's a bit of a stretch to say he's done anything beyond a bad job, when, after 3 years, the team he's built is in the exact same place as the one he took over.  Unless we have very different expectations.

[ScarletKnight89]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yeah. My point is you can't preempt criticism by not trying. If its not a GM's job to find a franchise QB, then what is his job?

It's definitely his job to find a franchise QB but i'm just not willing to pull the plug on him after 3 seasons. If he drafted a QB in year 1 or 2 in the 1st and that guy is clearly a bust then it would be different.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, ScarletKnight89 said:

It's definitely his job to find a franchise QB but i'm just not willing to pull the plug on him after 3 seasons. If he drafted a QB in year 1 or 2 in the 1st and that guy is clearly a bust then it would be different.

problem is that he hasn't taken a real shot at one yet.  a new gm usually gets more than 1 shot at finding a qb.  hack and petty don't count, a late 2nd and a 4th rounder.  so really, mccagnan now only gets 1 chance, this draft (assuming no cousins).  he screwed his own job security by not taking a chance on a qb early on and now it's a do or die for him in year 4.

[CTM]

15 minutes ago, Pac said:

There's not much I can say to you guys when you believe Jamal Adams is terrible and the roster is devoid of talent.

I disagree.  And when the Jets are a 10 win team next year you might as well.

Stop being a child. There's a large area between terrible player and terrible draft pick that most of us occupy and you pretend doesn't exist.
 

[CTM]

15 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Yes, but it's a bit of a stretch to say he's done anything beyond a bad job, when, after 3 years, the team he's built is in the exact same place as the one he took over.  Unless we have very different expectations.

I honestly don't get how he has any defenders. By any objective measure we are basically in the same place as we were 3 years ago, so why are we thinking we'll do the same thing with the same guys and get a different result over the next 3 years? Banking on the broken clock theory?