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Breer: Plan was to tank?


MDL_JET

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This thread seems like a good place to make the following prediction: 

 

the internet is way higher on the QBs than the league actually is 

 

there's a thread worried about 4 qbs off the board by 6.  While that could happen, it might more realistically be 2 or 3. 

Darnold, Allen, Mayfield

Barkely, Chubb, Nelson 

 

one of these 6 will be a NYJ and forced to bet money I'd take the non qb group. It just feels like Mac's MO to sit tight and wait. 

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4 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

3. Jets’ flight plan. The Jets absolutely wanted Cousins, and probably worse than anyone else did. But if you go back a few months, you’ll see that he wasn’t initially Plan A for the team. A few months back, the idea for 2017 was to strip down the team, rely on young guys, and get a Top 2 or 3 pick to spend on a quarterback. And this wasn’t just on paper, either. At the urging of ownership, the Jets’ personnel department sunk an absolute ton of resources into kicking the tires on all the college quarterbacks last fall. New York had a scout at just about every UCLA, USC, Wyoming, Oklahoma and Louisville game in 2017, and did all the background you can imagine on Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson. 

So what changed? Two things. First, the Jets’ young core, particularly on defense, got feisty early, and a three-game winning at the September/October turn doomed the idea that the team would be able to keep up with the likes of Cleveland and the Giants in the race for the first pick. Second, quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates impressed enough to earn a promotion to coordinator just as a signal-caller proven in his system, Cousins, was set to come free. Remember, Bates is a disciple of Mike Shanahan, just as Cousins and his two favorite play-callers (Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay) are. So add the early-season surge to Bates’ rise, and you had a team with the sixth pick that could try and get a proven quarterback, which would free it up to use its draft capital to build on last year’s transformational offseason. That’s how they drew it up, anyway.

Now? Well, they move forward with the information they need—and I expect we’ll see Top 30 visits and on-campus workouts with the top quarterbacks here, too—on the quarterbacks, and less flexibility with their picks, particularly if they need to trade up. It’s not ideal, and it didn’t feel good for anyone there this week. But with Josh McCown and Teddy Bridgewater in the fold as “for now” answers, they can move forward with what they’d set out to do in the first place, and that’s take one high in April.
 
 
If that was the plan, why not play Petty and Hack you idiots! Can never do anything right.

The above doesn't even include the other smoking gun that, while merely suspect back then, now fits like a last puzzle piece. The testimony of Woody Johnson right after the draft (https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/jets/2017/05/03/woody-johnson-dont-judge-2017-jets-wins-losses/309602001/)

  • don't judge on how many games they win [Trying to remember hearing any owner or team president level executive saying this in the spring, even in the absence of a new GM or new HC or both]
  • trying a strategy they've never tried before in 17 years [not spending on 1 serious FA to improve the team in March, despite having the cap room to do so]
  • "We've got to find a quarterback" [says this days after passing up all opportunities to draft one just days earlier. They didn't even take a shot on a mid or even late rounder, which any team might do even if they didn't need a starter. The only new QB they added was a 38 year-old journeyman whose recent reputation was losing 90% of his starts and getting injured; either outcome would have been acceptable in this scenario.]
  • Then 4 weeks later they cut 2 more starters (not even borderline-starters) in favor of promoting their expected-downgrade replacements.

From Woody's own mouth - which now fits this narrative even more than it did back then - this was a coordinated plan to tank for whichever prospect ended up being the runaway best QB prospect in what was then expected to be the best QB class in decades.

Given the position's importance, it's not even a bad plan IF they were just staring at a QB class like 2013, or if they picked so low they had no chance at the draft's only 1 or 2 decent prospects. Except we started out at #6 and there were 3 QBs in the 2017 draft that 3 teams (2 of them playoff teams) felt were not only worthy of top 10-12 picks, but were worthy of trading up to make sure they got them. Meanwhile the Jets took a ****ing safety in a draft with like 20 of them.

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3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This thread seems like a good place to make the following prediction: 

 

the internet is way higher on the QBs than the league actually is 

 

there's a thread worried about 4 qbs off the board by 6.  While that could happen, it might more realistically be 2 or 3. 

Darnold, Allen, Mayfield

Barkely, Chubb, Nelson 

 

one of these 6 will be a NYJ and forced to bet money I'd take the non qb group. It just feels like Mac's MO to sit tight and wait. 

and he'll be fired after the upcoming 6-10 season.

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3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

  • "We've got to find a quarterback" [says this days after they passing up all opportunities to draft one just days earlier. They didn't even take a shot on a mid or even late rounder, which any team might do even if they didn't need a starter. The only new QB they added was a 38 year-old journeyman whose recent reputation was losing 90% of his starts and getting injured; either outcome would have been acceptable in this scenario.]

Macc is a stubborn old fool clinging to Hack like Rose to that piece of driftwood while Leonardo DiCaprio froze to death

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2 minutes ago, peebag said:

and he'll be fired after the upcoming 6-10 season.

Why wait? Oh because Woody is eating crumpets and Chris doesn't even have authority to order ice for the vending machines at MetLife

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36 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This thread seems like a good place to make the following prediction: 

 

the internet is way higher on the QBs than the league actually is 

 

there's a thread worried about 4 qbs off the board by 6.  While that could happen, it might more realistically be 2 or 3. 

Darnold, Allen, Mayfield

Barkely, Chubb, Nelson 

 

one of these 6 will be a NYJ and forced to bet money I'd take the non qb group. It just feels like Mac's MO to sit tight and wait. 

Why not include Rosen in that group? His draft stock falling?

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40 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The above doesn't even include the other smoking gun that, while merely suspect back then, now fits like a last puzzle piece. The testimony of Woody Johnson right after the draft (https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/jets/2017/05/03/woody-johnson-dont-judge-2017-jets-wins-losses/309602001/)

  • don't judge on how many games they win [Trying to remember hearing any owner or team president level executive saying this in the spring, even in the absence of a new GM or new HC or both]
  • trying a strategy they've never tried before in 17 years [not spending on 1 serious FA to improve the team in March, despite having the cap room to do so]
  • "We've got to find a quarterback" [says this days after they passing up all opportunities to draft one just days earlier. They didn't even take a shot on a mid or even late rounder, which any team might do even if they didn't need a starter. The only new QB they added was a 38 year-old journeyman whose recent reputation was losing 90% of his starts and getting injured; either outcome would have been acceptable in this scenario.]
  • Then 4 weeks later they cut 2 more starters (not even borderline-starters) in favor of promoting their expected-downgrade replacements.

From Woody's own mouth - which now fits this narrative even more than it did back then - this was a coordinated plan to tank for whichever prospect ended up being the runaway best QB prospect in what was then expected to be the best QB class in decades.

Given the position's importance, it's not even a bad plan IF they were just staring at a QB class like 2013, or if they picked so low they had no chance at the draft's only 1 or 2 decent prospects. Except we started out at #6 and there were 3 QBs in the 2017 draft that 3 teams (2 of them playoff teams) felt were not only worthy of top 10-12 picks, but were worthy of trading up to make sure they got them. Meanwhile the Jets took a ****ing safety in a draft with like 20 of them.

Nice work.

Just never ever a coherent Plan.  And no strategy to adjust when necessary.  Exactly like watching a Todd Bowles coached game.

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15 minutes ago, jgb said:

We have double protection against success. Macc is unlikely to sack up and do what is necessary to get the QB of the future and even if he does, Bowles is incapable of developing him.

Develop him?  He wont even be allowed to take snaps during the camp "competition" of Bridgewater vs. McCown.

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41 minutes ago, jgb said:

Macc is a stubborn old fool clinging to Hack like Rose to that piece of driftwood while Leonardo DiCaprio froze to death

This is an issue it seems with just about every Jet regime.  If they draft a guy, they’ll almost never cut them, no matter how terrible the player.  Simple reason, they’re protecting themselves.  Best example is how did Kyle Wilson last on an nfl roster as long as he did?  I remember listening to Sirius a few years ago and Pat Kirwin, who used to worked for the Jets, said he went out to Jet camp as it opened the year of the Vernon Gholston draft.  He watched him for only 10 seconds and told the guy he was with, “he can’t play in this league”...not he “he needs a lot of work”...flat out..”he can’t play”...because he couldn’t open his hips.  They held onto him forever also.  Not cool.

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1 minute ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

This is an issue it seems with just about every Jet regime.  If they draft a guy, they’ll almost never cut them, no matter how terrible the player.  Simple reason, they’re protecting themselves.  Best example is how did Kyle Wilson last on an nfl roster as long as he did?  I remember listening to Sirius a few years ago and Pat Kirwin, who used to worked for the Jets, said he went out to Jet camp as it opened the year of the Vernon Gholston draft.  He watched him for only 10 seconds and told the guy he was with, “he can’t play in this league”...not he “he needs a lot of work”...flat out..”he can’t play”...because he couldn’t open his hips.  They held onto him forever also.  Not cool.

start a thread about whether geno smith got a raw deal here to get an answer to your very good question.

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15 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This thread seems like a good place to make the following prediction: 

 

the internet is way higher on the QBs than the league actually is 

 

there's a thread worried about 4 qbs off the board by 6.  While that could happen, it might more realistically be 2 or 3. 

Darnold, Allen, Mayfield

Barkely, Chubb, Nelson 

 

one of these 6 will be a NYJ and forced to bet money I'd take the non qb group. It just feels like Mac's MO to sit tight and wait. 

True, but of course it's not only getting a QB so much as getting the right QB.

Like the Giants already had Rivers in their hand from the #4 pick, and they still made a trade for Eli. Argue the value between the 2 QBs all you want, but despite all Eli's flaws they got 2 rings with him however they happened, so there's probably a 0% chance they'd go back and change the decision even if they could.

 

Yes there's plenty of time for draft stocks rising and falling. Unless there's a major shakeup with 2 of them, I'd still be shocked if fewer than 3 go in the top 6.  Both Denver and the Giants know full well you can't time when you're going to be in a position to draft your next top 5 pick QB without surrendering as many as 3 #1 picks. I think whether either bites at 2-5 or wait a bit, may depend on how much realistic potential they still see in Webb and Lynch. Or Denver taking a QB may depend upon whether or not 2 QBs are taken ahead of them (whether the Giants at #2 or the Jets leapfrogging them).

If either deems their #2 guy as a lost cause or #2 is their likely ceiling, I think they take a QB with their top pick. Denver only signed Keenum for 2 years which is almost the definition of a stopgap just long enough to not make them panic early. Plus they just un-load-ed Semen ;). Eli turns 38 before the 2018 postseason and meh anyway. For all the rationalizing and pontificating (and joking), I have to believe the Jets and Browns are mortal locks to take QBs in the top 6 no matter what.

 

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

This thread seems like a good place to make the following prediction: 

 

the internet is way higher on the QBs than the league actually is 

 

there's a thread worried about 4 qbs off the board by 6.  While that could happen, it might more realistically be 2 or 3. 

Darnold, Allen, Mayfield

Barkely, Chubb, Nelson 

 

one of these 6 will be a NYJ and forced to bet money I'd take the non qb group. It just feels like Mac's MO to sit tight and wait. 

If there was no trades. 

Darnold

Nelson

Chubb

Fitzpatrick

Mayfield/Rosen

 

But...who the hell knows who wants to trade up.

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6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

True, but of course it's not only getting a QB so much as getting the right QB.

Like the Giants already had Rivers in their hand from the #4 pick, and they still made a trade for Eli. Argue the value between the 2 QBs all you want, but despite all Eli's flaws they got 2 rings with him however they happened, so there's probably a 0% chance they'd go back and change the decision even if they could.

 

Yes there's plenty of time for draft stocks rising and falling. Unless there's a major shakeup with 2 of them, I'd still be shocked if fewer than 3 go in the top 6.  Both Denver and the Giants know full well you can't time when you're going to be in a position to draft your next top 5 pick QB without surrendering as many as 3 #1 picks. I think whether either bites at 2-5 or wait a bit, may depend on how much realistic potential they still see in Webb and Lynch. Or Denver taking a QB may depend upon whether or not 2 QBs are taken ahead of them (whether the Giants at #2 or the Jets leapfrogging them).

If either deems their #2 guy as a lost cause or #2 is their likely ceiling, I think they take a QB with their top pick. Denver only signed Keenum for 2 years which is almost the definition of a stopgap just long enough to not make them panic early. Plus they just un-load-ed Semen ;). Eli turns 38 before the 2018 postseason and meh anyway. For all the rationalizing and pontificating (and joking), I have to believe the Jets and Browns are mortal locks to take QBs in the top 6 no matter what.

 

I would trade our first round pick for Eli rather than let Macc scout another QB. Look how long he clung to Hack. It would've taken 7 years for him to give up on Ryan Leaf. He's playing scared for his job. Understandable on a human level but putrid for a football team where you need to fail quickly when you whiff.

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3 hours ago, slats said:

Exactly. They should've been playing them anyway. It would've been a far different thing if they won a few games because of surprising play from a 21-year-old QB rather than a 38-year-old one. 

Because they would have been accused of tanking from the get go

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Weird... A lot of different takes on this above. My take is GREAT! We should have more info than any other team on the 5 QBs. So I expect good things. Whether it's sitting at 6 and taking Jackson because we have him rated highest or trading up to get Darnold because he is rated highest.

Information = power. And we should have the most information on the 5 QBs.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

  • don't judge on how many games they win [Trying to remember hearing any owner or team president level executive saying this in the spring, even in the absence of a new GM or new HC or both]
  • trying a strategy they've never tried before in 17 years [not spending on 1 serious FA to improve the team in March, despite having the cap room to do so]
  • "We've got to find a quarterback" [says this days after they passing up all opportunities to draft one just days earlier. They didn't even take a shot on a mid or even late rounder, which any team might do even if they didn't need a starter. The only new QB they added was a 38 year-old journeyman whose recent reputation was losing 90% of his starts and getting injured; either outcome would have been acceptable in this scenario.]
  • Then 4 weeks later they cut 2 more starters (not even borderline-starters) in favor of promoting their expected-downgrade replacements.

 

Woody’s quotes from last year confrim Breer’s story. I assume Woody and Chris both asked Mac why he didn’t draft Watson or Mahomes at 6, when teams were trading for them a few picks later.

I’d venture to guess Mac said Hackenberg deserves a shot and we like next year’s class better, and Kirk Cousins will be a free agent. 

Hackenberg sucks, we struck out on Cousins, there’s only one move left to make if you are Mac...or you’re gone.

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

Macc is a stubborn old fool clinging to Hack like Rose to that piece of driftwood while Leonardo DiCaprio froze to death

Nah I think what's most likely is what fits most accurately. They weren't cutting him just in case the light went on, but I think they could see how far he was and, a rose glasses view of his potential aside, what a mistake they made.

I think they felt in going with Hackenberg (either from week 1 or after McCown had his early injury) they saw 2 outcomes: he pleasantly surprises and they don't need a QB anymore, or he's still so impossibly bad he helps them get the #1 pick for the best upgrade possible. Problem is for all that theoretical all-or-nothing planning, even a rookie Geno was able to QB the team to 8 wins. Case in point, after going 2-20 with annual early injuries in 3 straight seasons, they started out 5-7 before McCown went down. 5-7 is still sucky, but it isn't 2-10 or 1-11, and he still couldn't outplay Petty.

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1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nah I think what's most likely is what fits most accurately. They weren't cutting him just in case the light went on, but I think they could see how far he was and, a rose glasses view of his potential aside, what a mistake they made.

I think they felt in going with Hackenberg (either from week 1 or after McCown had his early injury) they saw 2 outcomes: he pleasantly surprises and they don't need a QB anymore, or he's still so impossibly bad he helps them get the #1 pick for the best upgrade possible. Problem is for all that theoretical all-or-nothing planning, even a rookie Geno was able to QB the team to 8 wins. Case in point, after going 2-20 with annual early injuries in 3 straight seasons, they started out 5-7 before McCown went down. 5-7 is still sucky, but it isn't 2-10 or 1-11, and he still couldn't outplay Petty.

Okay but if a guy is worthy of a game day spot, he's worthy to give some snaps too when the season is over to see what you got. Bowles would've played Powell at QB before putting Hack out there. Keeping him active was a favor to Macc's ego imho.

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6 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Because they would have been accused of tanking from the get go

They were accused of that, anyway. If they played Petty and Hack from the get-go, I think they would've been accused of doing an extended evaluation of their young QBs. Hardly a crime. 

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2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Okay but if a guy is worthy of a game day spot, he's worthy to give some snaps too when the season is over to see what you got. Bowles would've played Powell at QB before putting Hack out there. Keeping him active was a favor to Macc's ego imho.

Lol you'd think so

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol you'd think so

Yeah, one would. Bowles can't play this both ways. Inexcusable to have him active all year yet not give him some garbage snaps when season was over. There is no justification for how it was good for the Jets. It was one over-promoted incompetent covering for another.

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7 minutes ago, slats said:

They were accused of that, anyway. If they played Petty and Hack from the get-go, I think they would've been accused of doing an extended evaluation of their young QBs. Hardly a crime. 

THey did see them in the preseason so it wasn’t like we didn’t see them at all.

i could actually see this just being another case of bad Jets luck. They bring in McCown knowing that if the young suck, McCown will be bad enough to tank into a top pick. And in true jets luck, he played better than they thought he would 

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9 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

THey did see them in the preseason so it wasn’t like we didn’t see them at all.

i could actually see this just being another case of bad Jets luck. They bring in McCown knowing that if the young suck, McCown will be bad enough to tank into a top pick. And in true jets luck, he played better than they thought he would 

Better than they "thought" he would? I'd say.  He had by far the best season of his career.

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4 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Since 2014, Josh McCown had won 2 games total. So the difference at that point was negligible

 

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Just another non educated article from national media.  The jets did not win nary a game due to ts young feisty defense.

The team went out and got two vet WRs just before the season in kerley and kearse.

The jets played mccown until he got hurt.

There was ZERO tanking going on.  An if that was the strat then the jets as usual screwed it up.

It was a passive tank. Nobody thought McCown would have a career yr at 38. Mac just wanted to sign a jag vet to make it look good. Nobody can say “ he saw something “ nobody else did in Josh McCown lol. He was a cheap vet to sign, just to show we weren’t going to be too obvious and tank with two bad young qbs. They actually believed in camp, Petty and Hackenberg could win qb job. Or at least they thought even if McCown won it, he and jets wouldn’t do well enough to justify keeping him in midway through season. 

They cut or traded some players would def would have helped them win. Marshall, Decker, Richardson. They did not go end and spend anything to replace them. If they wanted to win, why did they get rid of those guys without using the ton of $$ they had to sign others ? They were thinking about 2018 already, that’s why. 

Kerley was not a winning move lol. Kearse was a throw in with trade who turned out to surprise many. Seahawks were deep at receiver. I can’t believe we got a 2nd round pick for Richardson, I know Mac didn’t say “ no a 2nder is not enough, I demand kearse too ha. 

 You can call it what you want. Tank or “ just not care about winning in 2017, save it for 18. Anybody who can accept that truth can see the evidence. 

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50 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The bottom line is that’s you can’t get away with tanking a full season in New York. What was the last NY team, if any, to deliberately tank a full season from the beginning?

2018 NY Giants.

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This idea that a New York team can't tank is pure nonsense. The Rangers are tanking which was supposedly ordered by ownership and the majority of fans are very supportive. Heck there were Jets fans wearing Darnold jerseys at the first few USC games before we ruined it by winning a few meaningless games.

This fan base is worn out from watching retreads at the most important position in sports. I think a vast majority of Jets fans were more than happy at the thought of winning 2 or less games last season and having a shot at one of the top QBs. This team is just flat out boring, the offense has sucked for years and we haven't had even a glimmer of hope at the QB position since we drafted Sanchez.

As far as I am concerned its QB or bust on April 28 in the first round. I won't even be upset if the guy doesn't pan out but I will be infuriated if this team doesn't do whatever it takes to get that guy. Maccagnan needs to go down swinging or he can pack his bags. 

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Woody’s quotes from last year confrim Breer’s story. I assume Woody and Chris both asked Mac why he didn’t draft Watson or Mahomes at 6, when teams were trading for them a few picks later.
I’d venture to guess Mac said Hackenberg deserves a shot and we like next year’s class better, and Kirk Cousins will be a free agent. 
Hackenberg sucks, we struck out on Cousins, there’s only one move left to make if you are Mac...or you’re gone.
I still do not get picking Hack in the 2nd Rd unless he felt other teams would take him before their next pick.

I'm curious how many teams would sign him if he is cut or placed on their PS.


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