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Loving Josh Rosen (merged)


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6 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Is it really or am I just asking you not to worry about how I feel or anticipate my reaction a whole 6 weeks from now? Because that would actually be the childish thing to do if we just want to go on about being childish.

what, so you can say “HAHA I TULDD YA SO”?

yeah. Childish.

Give it a rest.

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1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

Nah that’s you that might want to do reread, big dog. Because I clearly went on about his decision making ability, his footwork and his field vision for the last 7 pages. 

You are on one, today.

Alright let's break down those claims, footwork he's better then Mayfield and actually has pretty damn good footwork, so sh*t claim there bud. Decision making is spotty I'll give you that. Vision, they all could get better at it. Pretty disingenuous to single out Allen, no?

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51 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

A whole 2 mph different to the left on a handful of tosses?  Lol, really?  We're the passs equal length, same exact patterns, just reversed? 

Is there anything more meaningless?  Other than to compare Rosen arm to Chads? 

Honestly asking, are you saying Arm Strenght is meaningless? 

If you look at the 2mph thing then Mayfield is basically as close to Allen as Rosen is to Mayfield.  2mph matters.

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1 minute ago, artemusclyde said:

Alright let's break down those claims, footwork he's better then Mayfield and actually has pretty damn good footwork, so sh*t claim there bud. Decision making is spotty I'll give you that. Vision, they all could get better at it. Pretty disingenuous to single out Allen, no?

But I already explained why I liked Mayfield better so what does that have to do with Allen’s footwork?

Field vision is something Rosen is extremely good at and Darnold shows an innate ability with it as well.

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Just now, Patriot Killa said:

But I already explained why I liked Mayfield better so what does that have to do with Allen’s footwork?

Field vision is something Rosen is extremely good at and Darnold shows an innate ability with it as well.

And neither of those guys are falling to the Jets, so I fail to see your point? It's going to come down to Mayfield or Allen.

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6 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Still doesn’t change the fact that his upside is out of this world.

Whenever someone plays this card for a prospect the numbers outright don't like, just call shenanigans and move on. The chances of being wrong are low and in the ultra rare situation you get a starter the payoff is almost never what they said in the first place. Upside ceiling development potential is the ultimate get out of this prospect sucks free card. 

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Just now, artemusclyde said:

And neither of those guys are falling to the Jets, so I fail to see your point? It's going to come down to Mayfield or Allen.

Ok so now not only are we QB evlation guru’s but we are fortune tellers too. 

I’m not talking about the availability of these players, art. That has nothing to do with our debate.

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1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

Whenever someone plays this card for a prospect the numbers outright don't like, just call shenanigans and move on. The chances of being wrong are low and in the ultra rare situation you get a starter the payoff is almost never what they said in the first place. Upside ceiling development is the ultimate get out of this prospect sucks free card. 

And Hackenberg is the proof in the pudding.

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23 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Not sure that I agree with Mayock that Josh Allen is better than Carson Wentz in most areas with the exception of intangibles / football IQ, but it certainly makes for a compelling comparison.  Again, for the record, I want 3 other guys before I'd want to take Allen.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/mike_mayock_on_josh_allens_nfl.html

"INDIANAPOLIS -- Josh Allen drew a collective 'ooh' from the coaches and scouts inside Lucas Oil Stadium with an almost effortless 65-yard throw during his workout at the NFL combine Saturday.

Question is, how impressed were the Browns, who have the No. 1 and No. 4 picks?

"If you're John Dorsey with Cleveland at one and four, you've got to look at (Allen),'' Mayock said during the workout on NFL Network. "He can play indoors, outdoors, all 32 stadiums, cold weather, warm weather, big hands, big arm.''

Mayock insists that Allen (6-4 7/8, 237) is better in some ways than Carson Wentz, who was an NFL MVP candidate before he suffered a season-ending knee injury in December. Wentz had an 11-2 record when he went down.

"Look at the comparison,'' said Mayock. "He's got a bigger arm than Wentz. He's a better athlete than Wentz. I don't know if he brings the intangibles to the table that Wentz does, the leadership and the football IQ, but that's what the decision makers have to find out in the next two months."

Lol aside from the things that matter with Qb. He’s just like Wentz! If not better! ?

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11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Fun facts:  

20 of 35 = 57%

22 of 35 = 63%

24 of 35 = 69%

Importance of accuracy is accurate ball placement, not completion percentage, which is effected by talent of WRs, scores of games, defenses played.  

Im not looking to draft Allen, he's my 3rd choice though.  And won't be so arrogant to think there is no reason behind picking Mayfield if he is the pick with Allen still available.  This insistence that one is clearly better than the other and the choice isn't there is comical. 

If it's soooo easy to cover that gap like you want to pretend it is - why couldn't Allen cover that gap against college players? Why would things get better as a pro? 

The choice is there, no one is denying that. The lesser of the two choices in this scenario is clear. 

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Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Ok so now not only are we QB evlation guru’s but we are fortune tellers too. 

I’m not talking about the availability of these players, art. That has nothing to do with our debate.

It's pretty much consensus that Darnold goes #1. Rosen is a bit more incertainty there, but the Giants would be making a massive mistake to take Barkley there over trading down with the Bills and robbing them, or getting their franchise qb. Considering how often Rosen has been name dropping the Giants, along with Shurmur mentioning how he likes his qbs accurate, it seems extremely likely that they take Rosen there if they stay.

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1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

Best arm in the group IMO.  Better than both Darnold and Rosen.  But accuracy issues and some of his decision-making concern me.

If you're not accurate you don't have a "best arm". Accuracy is the most trait of an NFL thrower.

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Just now, Mackman55 said:

If you're not accurate you don't have a "best arm". Accuracy is the most trait of an NFL thrower.

I agree, but accuracy isn't binary.  It's not like he's either accurate or inaccurate.  The question is whether 58% accuracy is bad compared to 64% accuracy if the guy with 58% is completing 70 yard TDs while the 64% guy is completing 8 yard out-patterns.

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4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Ok so now not only are we QB evlation guru’s but we are fortune tellers too. 

I’m not talking about the availability of these players, art. That has nothing to do with our debate.

Does anyone honestly think the Giants are taking a RB over potentially securing the successor to Eli for the next 12-15 years?

I’m not buying that for a second. The Giants are definitely going QB. Rosen in all likelihood.

I’d say the odds have to be 90% or higher that Darnold and Rosen are the first two players off the board.

So if it’s down to Allen or Mayfield...push comes to shove, give me Allen.

 

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Just now, artemusclyde said:

It's pretty much consensus that Darnold goes #1. Rosen is a bit more incertainty there, but the Giants would be making a massive mistake to take Barkley there over trading down with the Bills and robbing them, or getting their franchise qb. Considering how often Rosen has been name dropping the Giants, along with Shurmur mentioning how he likes his qbs accurate, it seems extremely likely that they take Rosen there if they stay.

Aside from the fact I painfully disagree again. still, I’m not talking about availability with these QB’s. Allen has been name dropped as the #1 as well. Is it more likely than Darnold? No. But the point being it’s still a toss up being that it’s the middle of March.

The Giants would actually do good by taking Barkley and then taking advantage of a Guard heavy draft by selecting Will Hernandez or another worthy G prospect at the top of the second. Contrary to what you may think, Shurmur and Gettleman apparently think the world of Webb and find his work ethic extremely high. They think he can play. If they truly want Eli for 2-3 more years then it makes no sense to go Rosen at 2 and it makes much more sense to surround him with immediate impact players while picking up another QB prospect in the 3rd round.

the only plausible situation where we don’t get a shot at Rosen in my mind is if the Bills jump us at 2.

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Just now, Untouchable said:

Does anyone honestly think the Giants are taking a RB over potentially securing the successor to Eli for the next 12-15 years?

I’m not buying that for a second. The Giants are definitely going QB. Rosen in all likelihood.

I’d say the odds have to be 90% or higher that Darnold and Rosen are the first two players off the board.

So if it’s down to Allen or Mayfield...push comes to shove, give me Allen.

 

Answered Art with this question.

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27 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Not sure that I agree with Mayock that Josh Allen is better than Carson Wentz in most areas with the exception of intangibles / football IQ, but it certainly makes for a compelling comparison.  Again, for the record, I want 3 other guys before I'd want to take Allen.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/mike_mayock_on_josh_allens_nfl.html

"INDIANAPOLIS -- Josh Allen drew a collective 'ooh' from the coaches and scouts inside Lucas Oil Stadium with an almost effortless 65-yard throw during his workout at the NFL combine Saturday.

Question is, how impressed were the Browns, who have the No. 1 and No. 4 picks?

"If you're John Dorsey with Cleveland at one and four, you've got to look at (Allen),'' Mayock said during the workout on NFL Network. "He can play indoors, outdoors, all 32 stadiums, cold weather, warm weather, big hands, big arm.''

Mayock insists that Allen (6-4 7/8, 237) is better in some ways than Carson Wentz, who was an NFL MVP candidate before he suffered a season-ending knee injury in December. Wentz had an 11-2 record when he went down.

"Look at the comparison,'' said Mayock. "He's got a bigger arm than Wentz. He's a better athlete than Wentz. I don't know if he brings the intangibles to the table that Wentz does, the leadership and the football IQ, but that's what the decision makers have to find out in the next two months."

This is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard from a NFL talent evaluator......

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13 minutes ago, Mackman55 said:

He thought last year's QB class was weak and didn't have any of the QB's ranked as "can't miss". He was adamant that Trubinsky should have stayed another year in school. In the 2016 draft he had Goff rated as a can't miss prospect and stated that Wentz was the most NFL ready college QB since Luck. He did not like Winston or Mariota. I follow him since he has a good track record of evaluating QB's, not perfect but who is.

I like how he always states his evaluation is based from just the tape. That’s it. He doesn’t interview, speak to the prospects or use hearsay.  

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1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

Aside from the fact I painfully disagree again. still, I’m not talking about availability with these QB’s. Allen has been name dropped as the #1 as well. Is it more likely than Darnold? No. But the point being it’s still a toss up being that it’s the middle of March.

The Giants would actually do good by taking Barkley and then taking advantage of a Guard heavy draft by selecting Will Hernandez or another worthy G prospect at the top of the second. Contrary to what you may think, Shurmur and Gettleman apparently think the world of Webb and find his work ethic extremely high. They think he can play. If they truly want Eli for 2-3 more years then it makes no sense to go Rosen at 2 and it makes much more sense to surround him with immediate impact players while picking up another QB prospect in the 3rd round.

the only plausible situation where we don’t get a shot at Rosen in my mind is if the Bills jump us at 2.

They could steal all of the Bills picks, and still take a really damn good rb in Guice. As for Webb love, that sounds like general pleasantries. That front office didn't draft Webb, and front offices generally show a preference for drafting their guy. They just benched Eli, and are playing in a division with the reigning Super Bowl champions, it's perfect time to draft a qb and start building up and waiting for the Eagles to decline. If their set on competing with Eli, you trade down and fill the holes in that team.

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5 minutes ago, Mackman55 said:

This is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard from a NFL talent evaluator......

He's not wrong. Allen is more physically gifted then Wentz. Allen is the type of qb you design in a lab, he's the ideal qb in terms of physical stats. Allen's talent is insane, he's been clocked throwing the ball at 66 mph. That's absolutely nuts, his talent is extremely rare, this is once in a lifetime stuff. Whether or not he develops is another question, but considering his work ethic and how praised Bates is, (along with his improvements since the senior bowl) I have faith that we can develop him, and if he develops, he is a top 5 qb.

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6 minutes ago, C Mart said:

I like how he always states his evaluation is based from just the tape.

Really? Listen to him for a few years and you'll get tired of it. It's like he can't finish a sentence without saying film and implying that everybody else in the whole world is just copying off each other's mock drafts. It's grating as ****.

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19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Honestly asking, are you saying Arm Strenght is meaningless? 

If you look at the 2mph thing then Mayfield is basically as close to Allen as Rosen is to Mayfield.  2mph matters.

Not in any way am I saying this.  What I'm saying is that questioning his arm strength off of the drill is meaningless.  

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21 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

If it's soooo easy to cover that gap like you want to pretend it is - why couldn't Allen cover that gap against college players? Why would things get better as a pro? 

The choice is there, no one is denying that. The lesser of the two choices in this scenario is clear. 

Why would you think that 2 extra pass completions can't be because of reasons other than he's inaccurate?  He's never p,ahead with even decent WR talent, isn't that a contributing factor to completing a couple of extra passes?  Not saying it's all on WRs, saying it could be the reason though and can't be dismissed.  If he's throwing to the right spots he's accurate.  If the WRs don't make the play doesn't make him inaccurate.  Does effect his comp. %.

its why I asked @Patriot Killamore than once how he was determining that he was so inaccurate 

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7 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

He's not wrong. Allen is more physically gifted then Wentz. Allen is the type of qb you design in a lab, he's the ideal qb in terms of physical stats. Allen's talent is insane, he's been clocked throwing the ball at 66 mph. That's absolutely nuts, his talent is extremely rare, this is once in a lifetime stuff. Whether or not he develops is another question, but considering his work ethic and how praised Bates is, (along with his improvements since the senior bowl) I have faith that we can develop him, and if he develops, he is a top 5 qb.

Allen’s issues aren’t mechanical unlike Hackenturd.  Allen needs to learn to put less velocity on his throws to short and medium routrs

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14 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I agree, but accuracy isn't binary.  It's not like he's either accurate or inaccurate.  The question is whether 58% accuracy is bad compared to 64% accuracy if the guy with 58% is completing 70 yard TDs while the 64% guy is completing 8 yard out-patterns.

I understand your point. The fact is some QB's are inherently less accurate regardless of the type of throw. I try to evaluate a prospect's entire body of work with whatever statistics are available to help eliminate slight differences in completion percentages, etc due to the factors you stated. 

Check this out.

  

 

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18 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Does anyone honestly think the Giants are taking a RB over potentially securing the successor to Eli for the next 12-15 years?

I’m not buying that for a second. The Giants are definitely going QB. Rosen in all likelihood.

I’d say the odds have to be 90% or higher that Darnold and Rosen are the first two players off the board.

So if it’s down to Allen or Mayfield...push comes to shove, give me Allen.

 

Agree it’s whoever is leftover from Rosen and Allen probably Allen

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2 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Allen’s issues aren’t mechanical unlike Hackenturd.  Allen needs to learn to put less velocity on his throws to short and medium routrs

Quote

Many of Allen's misses occurred when he overstepped with his front foot—called over-striding—which throws off his balance and arm angle and causes the ball to sail. Allen showed up in Mobile, Alabama, for the Senior Bowl with a cleaner step and improved accuracy. Through three days of practices and capping it off with a strong showing in the game, Allen's stock went up.

If you trust Miller, that's his take on Allen's accuracy issues. He can throw with touch, it's just that inaccuracy in his lower body mechanics that he needs fixing, and from reports, has now fixed.

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It’s way too early to talk in absolutes. The final draft order is still fluid. We can still move up, and the teams ahead of us can swap out, or draft non-QB... nobody knows. 

The prospects can all build upon their mechanics, strengths, and footwork. Or, any one of these guys can pull a Teddy and happen upon a horrific injury which takes them out of the running all together. 

All we know is, we moved up up get a QB. We no longer have to watch Josh McCown flounder away 4th quarter leads. Our hope-filled future is right around the corner, and whether it means watching Teddy play for sixteen weeks, or watching our new kid Goff his way through year-1. We’re making moves in the right direction. 

None of these young QBs are going to save our franchise this coming season. And with EVERY mistake they make this board is going to be filled with “told ya so’s” and “woe is me cause Mac didn’t take [other guy]”.

But as soon as 2019, we can finally move on. We can start complaining about other weak links on the roster and front office.  We can return to sh*t talking our opponents like normal fan bases do, and maybe, just maybe, get BEHIND our young players & support them so they actually WANT to play for the ******* Jets. 

Why do you think Mathieu went to the sweaty Alamo, and Kirk to the mosquito tundra? Because their fan bases are filled with 90 yr old nanas who show up every weekend, win or lose, with a “that’s okay, it’s just a game” attitude, while we sit here dissecting ball speed. 

Watson threw slow balls (like Rosen), he was short (like Mayfield), and his footwork was improved by J Palmer (like Allen), meaning ANY one of these guys could be the next big thing if we can sit the **** back and let them learn the game without enduring our hate mail & death threats.

But changing an entire fan base? Is that even possible. I’m starting to think the only way our team succeeds in this is if we somehow get Darnold because he is strangely aloof to it all. I can’t tell if he doesn’t care at all, or if he cares so much (about football) that he doesn’t care about the setting/politics/particulars of where he’s going, he just wants to throw a ball for a living cause to him “it’s just a game.”

 

 

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