Loving Josh Rosen (merged)

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

College QB's with accuracy problems at the college level (i.e. under ~60%) are generally considered poor prospects for the pro level and generally do not succeed once there.

That is what everyone thinks is wrong with Allen.  He's Hack-like in his inaccuracy.

Matt Stafford and Matt Ryan had similar percentages, both would be QB1 on this team no problem, no matter who they draft.

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

Nfl.com compares him to jake locker.  

I will stand by my contention that i can't see mccagnan taking allen after the hack failure.  He's going to take someone who has the tape and won't require a ton of work.  The qb they draft has to play this year and has to look good, the johnsons aren't going to be happy watching allen be inactive all season.

Absolutely agree. I wi go down to my grave saying Allen ain’t sh*t until he proves me wrong.(which I don’t think he will) 

Allen has nothing you look for in a elite QB. His mechanics are as sloppy as any other QB we have taken in the past DECADE. His already blow average accuracy suffers even more because of it and he couldn’t squeak on respectable numbers in one of CFB’s disgustingly easy conferences. Allen should of been putting up video game numbers in that conference if he was that damn good not the opposite. He isn’t pro ready. Macc would be stupid to make this same mistake and he would be fired the second it back fires...which it will. 

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Matt Stafford and Matt Ryan had similar percentages, both would be QB1 on this team no problem, no matter who they draft.

Cherry picking two of the few who did ok doesn't change the fact that being a sub-60% QB in college is a key feature of pro-level failures.

For every Stafford, there are a dozen who got drafted and failed Bit and you know it.

So I take it you're in the "Must Draft Allen at #3" camp then Bit?

[Thai Jet]

28 minutes ago, RSJ said:

Didnt Rosen pretty much say he wouldnt want to play for the Browns?


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Yes he did. He was implying that perhaps he'd stay in school for his senior year rather than declare for the draft if Cleveland had the top pick.

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

this assumes Mac learns from mistakes 

He might just blame Hack and double down on his own preferences. That seems far more likely than him shooting out of bed like Scrooge on Xmas morning and being a totally different GM. 

I think mccags has already learned from some of them - he traded up, and well before the draft.

[sec101row23]

Just now, Warfish said:

Cherry picking two of the few who did ok doesn't change the fact that being a sub-60% QB in college is a key feature of pro-level failures.

For every Stafford, there are a dozen who got drafted and failed Bit and you know it.

You can say the same thing about QBs under 6’1”.  

[RSJ]

It hasn't happened before but Denver could get him at 5 with Keenum (same height-ish) and be ready to roll.  Miami would take him at 11. Cardinals at 15 is all these guy's floor. I don't think he drops to 12. The bills have to go and get QB 4 but maybe just up to 7,8 or 9.

 

 

I think the Jets made this trade because they saw a scenario where Mayfield was the only QB left at 6 and they passed for Mikah. Being 100% serious here. We will see on draft day - but I dont see Mayfield getting picked in the top 10. Elway signed Keenum but even he picks QBs high that first have the right height/weight/speed. The footwork spread offense issue is another big factor.

 

 

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[Warfish]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

You can say the same thing about QBs under 6’1”.  

Yes, you absolutely can.

I like Mayfield.  I wouldn't have traded three #2 picks to get Mayfield.

[Mackman55]

41 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I didn't know this. Great find. 

I just hope they don't pick Mayfield 1st overall. Let them take Darnold and the Giants can take Rosen and leave the Jets with Mayfield. 

Maybe Dorsey is onto something here. Don't get me wrong, there's promise in Rosen...much potential, but im not really impressed with his overall game. The guy is almost as hyped this year as Darnold was hyped last year. It's a bit much. 

All of these QB's have issues, but I think Mayfield is as much under-appreciated as Rosen is over-hyped. 

I love Mayfield too but unfortunately I think the Browns love him too. 

Rosen is an immensely talented prospect with a big arm, as I stated in another thread he reminds me of Bert Jones of the old Baltimore Colts. With that said he is a huge risk to take this high in a draft that will define this franchise for the next few years. His injury history, especially the concussions, must be factored into the evaluation process for any prospect. One of the most important factors for a successful NFL QB is durability just look at Brady and Eli for example. As for the off the field stuff, I take most of this with a grain of salt but when respected football people like Trent Dilfer and John Dorsey (Browns GM) raise major red flags about him being a di__ you have to at least consider it.

I have watched all his games and he is a great QB when allowed to throw in rhythm from the pocket, especially in the middle of the field he is amazingly accurate and leads his target to maximize yards after the catch. When he is forced to move out of the pocket he becomes an average QB and is especially weak moving to his left. He also throws tons of bad interceptions when  under pressure. He certainly can be a top shelf NFL QB if he manages to stay healthy and if he gets a system that fits his talents. I think he would flourish in a West Coast style offense where most throws are quick reads in rhythm and where the hits he would have to absorb would be minimized.

The next 5 weeks will be fun.

 

 

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

he difference is the media hyped up Allen to such a high extent that Allen is what mostly is heard by the public. It has been Rosen and Mayfield just as much or more than Allen.

1

In terms of media - Baker Mayfield is the hype machine right now. That's without a doubt. He showed up at his pro day wearing a headband like he was in the Cobra Kai 

Josh Rosen is getting a ton of love from the internet. Guys on this board and others love watching his tape and are convinced he's amazing. 

Josh Allen is no one from no where's ville, the internet hates him with a passion. That troll site sponsored by Steven Segal bit 2 coin ?  He's a joke. The guy has been like a surprise at every turn. No one goes into a production meeting saying you know who America will love? Josh Allen! he's not that exciting or charismatic. 

Look we can disagree on these prospects ultimate success but if you think Allen is getting hyped while Rosen is getting dogged you aren't being objective. The only "hype" was Mel Kiper saying Allen would go 1. And that dude isn't all that imaginative he knows people and prints what he hears. 

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Cherry picking two of the few who did ok doesn't change the fact that being a sub-60% QB in college is a key feature of pro-level failures.

For every Stafford, there are a dozen who got drafted and failed Bit and you know it.

So I take it you're in the "Must Draft Allen at #3" camp then Bit?

My personal preference is they take someone who plays quarterback.

I don't care who it is. Really I don't give one single s--t. Whoever it is, I can see the case be made. 

and honestly if they take Barkley cause they only like 2 QBs and they are both gone, I'm ok with that too. 

[Jazy8ball]

14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

College QB's with accuracy problems at the college level (i.e. under ~60%) are generally considered poor prospects for the pro level and generally do not succeed once there.

That is what everyone thinks is wrong with Allen.  He's Hack-like in his inaccuracy.

So then why do the people that rank these guy for a living, AKA the experts rank Allen so high?

[MDL_JET]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Matt Stafford and Matt Ryan had similar percentages, both would be QB1 on this team no problem, no matter who they draft.

Ryan at least hit 62% twice and 59 his last year. Josh Allen barely reached 56% in his two seasons. Stafford yes, but I hope we're striving for something a little better then Matthew Stafford. 

[Warfish]

Just now, bitonti said:

My personal preference is they take someone who plays quarterback.

I don't care who it is. Really I don't give one single s--t. Whoever it is, I can see the case be made. 

and honestly if they take Barkley cause they only like 2 QBs and they are both gone, I'm ok with that too. 

Well.....I guess if i had your history of draft success predictions, I'd take the RayRay-esque "I'll take anyone, anyone they pick is a good pick" waffling position too.

At least you didn't say you'd also be ok with Chubb at #3, but I'd wager you probably would be.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Jazy8ball said:

So then why do the people that rank these guy for a living, AKA the experts rank Allen so high?

You tell me.  Explain it to me.  

He has prototypical size and a massive Ken O'Brien-like bazooka arm.

So tell me what else he has that makes him a great pick, given his horrid college accuracy.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, MDL_JET said:

Ryan at least hit 62% twice and 59 his last year. Josh Allen barely reached 56% in his two seasons. Stafford yes, but I hope we're striving for something a little better then Matthew Stafford. 

I can see cleveland, Arizona or buffalo taking allen but not us.  He's not a WCO guy.  

[MDL_JET]

1 minute ago, Jazy8ball said:

So then why do the people that rank these guy for a living, AKA the experts rank Allen so high?

That's what I don't understand. Every analyst ranks him top 3. With a guy who struggles so much with accuracy, you'd think he'd be at least a 2nd round guy. I don't understand how a big arm and "potential" can push you so high. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, MDL_JET said:

That's what I don't understand. Every analyst ranks him top 3. With a guy who struggles so much with accuracy, you'd think he'd be at least a 2nd round guy. I don't understand how a big arm and "potential" can push you so high. 

This is why guys like jake locker to top 10.  The analysts don't do the drafting, and don't get fired when they're wrong.

[Patriot Killa]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

In terms of media - Baker Mayfield is the hype machine right now. That's without a doubt. He showed up at his pro day wearing a headband like he was in the Cobra Kai 

Josh Rosen is getting a ton of love from the internet. Guys on this board and others love watching his tape and are convinced he's amazing. 

Josh Allen is no one from no where's ville, the internet hates him with a passion. That troll site sponsored by Steven Segal bit 2 coin ?  He's a joke. The guy has been like a surprise at every turn. No one goes into a production meeting saying you know who America will love? Josh Allen! he's not that exciting or charismatic. 

Look we can disagree on these prospects ultimate success but if you think Allen is getting hyped while Rosen is getting dogged you aren't being objective. The only "hype" was Mel Kiper saying Allen would go 1. And that dude isn't all that imaginative he knows people and prints what he hears. 

You are wildly inaccurate(As is Josh Allen) if you think the media doesn’t hype up Allen’s arm strength and his draft position. I had to sit here for 3 whole days during Senior Bowl week and hear Andrew Sicliano and Mike Mayock repeatedly mention the same words over and over again about Josh Allen.

”Oh boy, the arm strength of this kid.” 

“Tell ya what, Mike, I never seen the ball go that far.”

”Allen has the strongest arm I have ever seen, I sometimes think about how hard he beats his meat with that arm. To an Inhuman extent I tell ya!”

It’s a fooking joke to me, and I see no value in him besides the very thing that they hype him up with. Does he have Baker marketability? Of course not. That really is nothing new. But what he does have is media agenda behind his name whether he knows it or not. They love this man for zero reason besides arm strength and measurables. As a Jets fan have we not learned that it means nothing in the long run? 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Well.....I guess if i had your history of draft success predictions, I'd take the RayRay-esque "I'll take anyone, anyone they pick is a good pick" waffling position too.

At least you didn't say you'd also be ok with Chubb at #3, but I'd wager you probably would be.

2

Personally I would recruit Vinny T out of retirement for one last season. You know he's got it in him. 

My focus is not putting the GM hat and daydreaming that my hands are actually on the levers of power.  

Or engaging in Vaynerchukian delusions that one day might be the case. 

My focus is predicting the actions of the man who already has the job. What we want isn't relevant. 

I didn't predict this trade up tbh. didn't think mac had it in him. but considering how this franchise uses 2nd round picks that's fine.

[RSJ]

That's what I don't understand. Every analyst ranks him top 3. With a guy who struggles so much with accuracy, you'd think he'd be at least a 2nd round guy. I don't understand how a big arm and "potential" can push you so high. 

Because without being able to stretch the defense, you are limited and there is no way to over come that issue.


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[MDL_JET]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

This is why guys like jake locker to top 10.  The analysts don't do the drafting, and don't get fired when they're wrong.

They go top 10 because guys like Kiper rank them that high?

[Thai Jet]

31 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Wrong, Hack was a top 5 projected pick at one point and time. And that window quickly closed.

WHEN ?  At what point ?  He totally regressed from his freshman year. NEVER a top 5 prospect.

[RSJ]

I can see cleveland, Arizona or buffalo taking allen but not us.  He's not a WCO guy.  

I disagree. I dont think you cam say that Allen couldnt play in the WCO


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[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, MDL_JET said:

They go top 10 because guys like Kiper rank them that high?

They go top 10 because gms think they can fix qbs with major flaws in college, like mccags did with hack.  

[Patriot Killa]

Just now, Thai Jet said:

WHEN ?  At what point ?  He totally regressed from his freshman year. NEVER a top 5 prospect.

Exactly the year you just mentioned. Going into his sophomore year he was mentioned amount the top prospects in the class. 

[bitonti]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

You are wildly inaccurate(As is Josh Allen) if you think the media doesn’t hype up Allen’s arm strength and his draft position. I had to sit here for 3 whole days during someone combine and here Andrew Sicliano and Mike Mayock repeatedly mention the same words over and over again about Josh Allen.

”Oh boy, the arm strength of this kid.” 

“Tell ya what, Mike, I never seen the ball go that far.”

”Allen has the strongest arm I have ever seen, I sometimes think about how hard he beats his meat with that arm. Inhuman extent I tell ya!”

It’s a fooking joke to me, and I see no value in him besides the very thing that they hype him up with. Does he have Baker marketability? Of course not. That really is nothing new. But what he does have is media agenda behind his name whether he knows it or not. They love this man for zero reason besides arm strength and measurables. As a Jets fan have we not learned that it means nothing in the long run? 

3

that wasn't hype that was people watching something happen in real time. ditto the Senior Bowl. Allen could have been trash and they would have said this guy is trash.  Hype is when suits from Nike meet up with the suits from ESPN and say "How can we get this guy on the air more?"

Rosen and Mayfield are getting way more airtime. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, RSJ said:

 

I disagree. I dont think you cam say that Allen couldnt play in the WCO


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Didn't say he couldn't, but it doesn't seem like would be his offense with that bad completion %.

[Jazy8ball]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You tell me.  Explain it to me.  

He has prototypical size and a massive Ken O'Brien-like bazooka arm.

So tell me what else he has that makes him a great pick, given his horrid college accuracy.

I can’t explain it. I am nothing close to an evaluator of football talent. I just read what experts think. I’m not saying you’re wrong. Just saying people that do this for a living think Allen is a stud. I’d be thrilled with Allen, Rosen, Darnold or Mayfield. 

[Patriot Killa]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

that wasn't hype that was people watching something happen in real time. ditto the Senior Bowl. Allen could have been trash and they would have said this guy is trash.  Hype is when suits from Nike meet up with the suits from ESPN and say "How can we get this guy on the air more?"

Rosen and Mayfield are getting way more airtime. 

Are you serious? So when Josh Allen was missing targets by a whole MILE during Senior Bowl practice, commentary was saying he was trash? They weren’t. They didn’t open their mouths, period...unless he did something like throw the ball 90 yards in the air.

This is funny as hell but go on.

edit: BTW marketing and hyping come in different forms and can be different things based on the circumstances. Nike could want to sponser Baker and that’s marketing. Mike Mayock could want to kiss Josh Allen on his throwing arm on air and that’s hype.

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You tell me.  Explain it to me.  

He has prototypical size and a massive Ken O'Brien-like bazooka arm.

So tell me what else he has that makes him a great pick, given his horrid college accuracy.

At 235 he also has better speed than both Mayfield and Rosen. He's got no injuries unlike Rosen, who is always banged up. He doesn't come from the gimmicky Mayfield system surrounded by 5 star preps. 

I love these "I don't know why but Allen is a bust" threads

 

"OK EXCEPT FOR HIS HEIGHT, WEIGHT, SPEED, AGILITY, ARM STRENGTH and his own table at the CRACKER BARRELL what else does he HAVE? HUH?! I HATE HIM SO MUCH"

 

[RSJ]

Didn't say he couldn't, but it doesn't seem like would be his offense with that bad completion %.

He definitely seems mobile enough. I am not sure if Allens accuracy issues are mechanical or a product of his OC taking too many shots downfield. Sometimes its because of the system that the player has accuracy issues and not the player himself.


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[bitonti]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Are you serious? So when Josh Allen was missing targets by a whole MILE during Senior Bowl practice, commentary was saying he was trash? They weren’t. They didn’t open their mouths, period...unless he did something like throw the ball 90 yards in the air.

This is funny as hell but go on.

Just want to point out you are basing your Senior Bowl and Combine evaluations on what the announcers said.  That's not how the personnel people experience these events. 

Josh Rosen was no where to be found at either by the way except for press conferences and running a stinky 5 second 40 yard dash. 

[Thai Jet]

1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

Exactly the year you just mentioned. Going into his sophomore year he was mentioned amount the top prospects in the class. 

WOW a top 5 prospect as a freshman. How about when it was relevant like when he was draft eligible ? We need to be comparing apples to apples. Get real. We reached for him picking him in the 2nd round and everyone knew it at the time. . 

[Patriot Killa]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Just want to point out you are basing your Senior Bowl and Combine evaluations on what the announcers said.  That's not how the personnel people experience these events. 

Josh Rosen was no where to be found at either by the way except for press conferences and running a stinky 5 second 40 yard dash. 

Josh Rosen is a junior and that is why he wasn’t at the Senior Bowl. And the Senior Bowl was clearly not my only option to choose from when mentioning how many times Allen has been hyped. Rosen threw at the NFL combine and his pro day.

damn.

that wasn’t enough for you? You wanted he should pretend he was a senior and sneak into the Senior Bowl?