THEORY: Jets are targeting Baker Mayfield

[long suffering jets fan]

3 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Ummmmm was Allen more impressive than JaMarcus Russell????

Jamarcus wasn't throwing at the combine.  But Rosen was and i and a lot of other people weren't impressed.

[Dcat]

8 hours ago, Pcola said:

Baker - 9.25

Darnold - 9.375

Jackson - 9.5

Rosen - 9.875

Allen - 10.125

Say what you want about Allen, he’s not going to fumble a lot.

Many of the last 20 years of Jets QBs had bigger hands than all of them.  With Sanchez, its not the size of the hands but the size of the butt in front of him.

Ryan Fitzpatrick 10.75

Mark Sanchez 10.5

Brett Favre 10.375

Chad Pennington  10.25

Vinny Testaverde 10.0

Bryce Petty 10.0

Teddy Bridgewater 9.25

Geno Smith 9.25

Josh McCown 9.0

Christian Hackenberg 9.0

[Sonny Werblin]

17 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

And Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" but that doesn't mean everyone under 5' 5" can find success in the NBA.

Bogues was like half a foot shorter than what people view as the shortest height for an NBA guard. Mayfield is 1.325 inches shorter than Aaron Rodgers. Not sure I see the similarity. 

[bla bla bla]

16 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Huh, really, I didn't know that, thanks for the information, so basically Maccagnan has been busted down a notch, that is very good news.

Here is to hoping that Heimerdinger has lots of influence on the 1 single pick that will shape much of the next decade of Jet football.

@T0mShane I have a story that will give Jets fans nightmares until draft day. 

What if I told you Hack was not a Mac or Bowles pick?

The truth is far more nauseating. This time 2 years ago, after failing to trade up for Goff/Wentz, Brian Heimerdinger was asked who his choice at QB would be after the big two. Heimerdinger requested a laptop from the scouting department and fielded a phone call from a mystery outside source, this source was apparently very high on Hack. Bowles was not high on the pick, saying "this pick is not on me". Hack, after sitting for the entire 2016 season and not showing much in practice or training camp that year, the Jets decided to bring in a new QB coach, a coach who thought he could work with Hack, a coach that received a phone call from Heimerdinger 2 years ago, a coach that is now our OC.

Hack was a Jeremy Bates pick.

It makes my stomach flip and I pray there is no validity to it. Drafting a QB that late doesn't generally bode well in terms of production so hopefully it was just a stab in the dark, I'd like to believe any of the top 4 are far better options than the choices Bates was initially given.

[Flushing Roots]

If it's between Allen and Mayfield, I'd take Mayfield.

Inaccuracy IMO is a larger problem than height.

Mayfield could be the QB version of Wayne Chrebet.

Kid has that kind of grit.

[bla bla bla]

14 hours ago, Pcola said:

Baker - 9.25

Darnold - 9.375

Jackson - 9.5

Rosen - 9.875

Allen - 10.125

Say what you want about Allen, he’s not going to fumble a lot.

Not sure if it's been pointed out or not yet but Baker and Teddy have the same size hands.

Not related to your post but I do find it funny that people make such a big deal about Mayfield's height yet he is actually closer to 6'1" according to the combine, than he is 6'. Official hieght was 6' 5/8s ? He grew 1/4 between the Senior Bowl and the Combine, by the time the draft rolls around he'll be close to 6'2!

[T0mShane]

46 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

@T0mShane I have a story that will give Jets fans nightmares until draft day. 

What if I told you Hack was not a Mac or Bowles pick?

The truth is far more nauseating. This time 2 years ago, after failing to trade up for Goff/Wentz, Brian Heimerdinger was asked who his choice at QB would be after the big two. Heimerdinger requested a laptop from the scouting department and fielded a phone call from a mystery outside source, this source was apparently very high on Hack. Bowles was not high on the pick, saying "this pick is not on me". Hack, after sitting for the entire 2016 season and not showing much in practice or training camp that year, the Jets decided to bring in a new QB coach, a coach who thought he could work with Hack, a coach that received a phone call from Heimerdinger 2 years ago, a coach that is now our OC.

Hack was a Jeremy Bates pick.

It makes my stomach flip and I pray there is no validity to it. Drafting a QB that late doesn't generally bode well in terms of production so hopefully it was just a stab in the dark, I'd like to believe any of the top 4 are far better options than the choices Bates was initially given.

Is this real or is this something you made up to trick me into drowning myself in the Long Island sound 

[FidelioJet]

15 hours ago, legler82 said:

The sad irony about all this is that we had the 6th pick traded up to the 3rd sparking this big debate over Allen and Mayfield, 2 possible available prospects at that spot. We could of have had Mahomes at 6 last year, the guy who is essentially the best of those 2 merged into one prospect. Allen may have the slightly better arm strength but Mahomes has the better arm talent IMO. So you get the Allen type arm but with accuracy and production you feel good about while also getting everything people love about Mayfield but on steroids.

Fun fact:  Mahomes set an NCAA single game passing yards (734) and total yards (819) against Mayfield's Oklahoma team.

 

Mahomes was a good, not great prospect - many talent evaluator had him as a 2nd round prospect while very few have the other two from this year

There were plenty of concerns with him as a prospect - as a pro he's thrown 34 passes, 1int, no TD's...

Let's not make this guy to be Tom Brady quite yet. 

I'm not saying he's not going to be a good NFL QB - I'm saying blaming Mac for passing on him as if he's already proven something is simply unfair.

[T0mShane]

I will say that, after Bowles is fired, the flip from Morton to Bates needs to be re-examined. If you’re a cynic like me, you ave to believe it’s because Morton was the only guy on the staff that could reasonably step into Bowles’ job if he was fired mid-season. Now, he’s surrounded himself with dudes who are hanging on in the NFL by the tips of their fingernails. 

[dbatesman]

15 hours ago, Pcola said:

Baker - 9.25

Darnold - 9.375

Jackson - 9.5

Rosen - 9.875

Allen - 10.125

Say what you want about Allen, he’s not going to fumble a lot.

Big hands are a good thing, obviously, but this isn’t a direct correlation; Allen’s fumble rate is actually a little higher than Mayfield’s. A better example is Sanchez, who has hands like shovels and still fumbles once every game and a half or so. To borrow the velcro shoe crew’s argument about completion percentage: a lot of factors go into a QB’s fumble rate.

 

 

 

[Bruce Harper]

13 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

There's no question Allen was the most impressive QB at the combine and it wasn't even close.  Does that translate to getting picked before the others, or long term success, who knows, but he certainly didn't hurt himself. 

I didn''t watch it but I'm not a big combine guy.  Remember how impressive Gholston was?

[Bruce Harper]

11 hours ago, jetspenguin said:

Everything you said about him is correct.....but this is also correct. He doesnt WIN, he is off target almost as much as he is on and when playing against superior talent he FOLDED up the tent and took his big arse arm home to flip pancakes.

Some guys get more accurate in the pros but it is extremely rare.  In general, you can't coach accuracy and touch, which is why Allen will be a diappointing pro, IMHO.

[Bruce Harper]

10 hours ago, Pcola said:

Jeremiah just wrote a piece on the top 10 QB prospects over the past three years.  Spoiler alert: Darnold and Rosen were in the top 3, with Wentz at 2.  

So Rosen, according to Jeremiah, is a better prospect than Goff, Mayfield, Allen, and all the QBs drafted last year.

Link?

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Bruce Harper said:

Link?

I read it too and he did it on nfl network.  Mayfield was 5th, ahead of Watson and mahomes.  Very interesting take.  I still maintain this trade was made for mayfield in a worst case, and truth, a most likely scenario.  The only way the jets get either Rosen or darnold is if the browns take allen, b/c the giants slot is for a qb.

[bla bla bla]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Is this real or is this something you made up to trick me into drowning myself in the Long Island sound 

Unfortunately I did not make this up.

My only hope is that they were looking for a developmental prospect and that Bates didn't actually know when they'd pull the trigger on Hack.

[Bruce Harper]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Unfortunately I did not make this up.

My only hope is that they were looking for a developmental prospect and that Bates didn't actually know when they'd pull the trigger on Hack.

He's not going to make the pick at number 3, with Mac's job riding on it.

[Sonny Werblin]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Link?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000922045/article/top-10-qb-prospects-of-past-3-nfl-draft-classes-darnold-no-1

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Unfortunately I did not make this up.

My only hope is that they were looking for a developmental prospect and that Bates didn't actually know when they'd pull the trigger on Hack.

Interesting and thanks for passing this along. The ascension of Bates in the organization is all kinds of dubious. That they’d let him shape the future of the Jets QB position is a little scary. I mean, look at the guy’s career. The longest he’s lasted in any job is two years and was outright banished from the league for four.

 

[Sonny Werblin]

6 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Unfortunately I did not make this up.

My only hope is that they were looking for a developmental prospect and that Bates didn't actually know when they'd pull the trigger on Hack.

Wasn't Bates out of football at the time. And why the **** would our scouting department base a decision on an outsider? If true, heimendinger is a tool and Mac is a bigger tool.

[BCJet]

10 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Unfortunately I did not make this up.

My only hope is that they were looking for a developmental prospect and that Bates didn't actually know when they'd pull the trigger on Hack.

How would you know a story like this?  And why would Hermindinger go outside the organization to make a pick that important, Mac would be insane to allow that.

[Villain The Foe]

18 hours ago, Pcola said:

Baker - 9.25

Darnold - 9.375

Jackson - 9.5

Rosen - 9.875

Allen - 10.125

Say what you want about Allen, he’s not going to fumble a lot.

The size of a QB's hands isnt going to tell you whether that player will fumble alot or not. It could probably give you more of an indication on whether that player can grip the ball properly when trying to throw in the rain for example. But lets do this. 

Josh Allen is 6-5 with 10 inch hands. 

Blaine Gabbert is 6-4 with 10 inch hands. In 48 games played Blaine Gabbert fumbled the ball 30 times. He fumbled every other game he played.

The size of a QB's hands is a bit overrated when trying to determine whether that player will be fumbling the football. Russell Wilson has 10.5 inch hands and in 96 games he's fumbled 56 times. again, you're pretty much guaranteed that Wilson is going to fumble every other game. 

None of these guys have average size hands. The average size male hand is 7.5 inches. Guys like Mitch Trubisky, who's considered to have small hands, is only small by NFL standards, not by human standards. Mitch's hands measured at 9 1/2...slightly smaller than the 9 3/5 that they're used to. 

I would think that hand size would play a bigger role catching the ball than holding onto it as a QB. Im not saying that it has no impact at all, but if I had to choose the two situations, I would think that catching the ball would be easier with bigger hands. You can have smaller hands but if you have good technique and dont hold the ball like a loaf of bread you'll likely not fumble as often. 

Allen will fumble the football like the rest of these guys, and it will probably be around 1 fumble every other game. 

[legler82]

3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Mahomes was a good, not great prospect - many talent evaluator had him as a 2nd round prospect while very few have the other two from this year

There were plenty of concerns with him as a prospect - as a pro he's thrown 34 passes, 1int, no TD's...

Let's not make this guy to be Tom Brady quite yet. 

I'm not saying he's not going to be a good NFL QB - I'm saying blaming Mac for passing on him as if he's already proven something is simply unfair.

I'm pretty sure by the time the draft came around Mahomes most scouts had him in the first round.  If not, then the "many talent evaluators" you are referencing were criminally wrong.  How in the world can Mayfield be considered a consensus 1st rounder and Mahomes not?  They are both Air Raid products with video game production from the same conference with Mahomes throwing for more yards roughly the same amount of TDs with far inferior talent around him.  At some point they were even on the same team, where Mahomes ultimately won the job from the guy who took the job from Mayfield.  In a head to head match up Mahomes broke NCAA records for passing and total yards.  Mahomes was Mayfield on steroids;  all the ability in a bigger frame and rare arm talent.  If he was just "good, not great prospect", then Mayfield is a slightly above average one.  Where was all the love for Mahomes last year?  Is it because he not as good a crotch grabber?  This is classic example of how the school they go to affect fans perception of prospects.

Lastly, if we are talking about these guys prospects, then we ought to stick to that.   You can't have it both ways.  I blame Mac from passing on who I believe was a great "prospect".  If I wait until Mahomes becomes the FQB he is destined to be, then you and others like you will say hindsight is 20/20.  That's what's unfair.  I'm saying Mac screwed up royally now just as I did on draft day last year.  If Mahomes becomes Ryan Leaf, you and your buy Mac and come at me and that will be totally fair.

[legler82]

8 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

The size of a QB's hands isnt going to tell you whether that player will fumble alot or not. It could probably give you more of an indication on whether that player can grip the ball properly when trying to throw in the rain for example. But lets do this. 

Josh Allen is 6-5 with 10 inch hands. 

Blaine Gabbert is 6-4 with 10 inch hands. In 48 games played Blaine Gabbert fumbled the ball 30 times. He fumbled every other game he played.

The size of a QB's hands is a bit overrated when trying to determine whether that player will be fumbling the football. Russell Wilson has 10.5 inch hands and in 96 games he's fumbled 56 times. again, you're pretty much guaranteed that Wilson is going to fumble every other game. 

None of these guys have average size hands. The average size male hand is 7.5 inches. Guys like Mitch Trubisky, who's considered to have small hands, is only small by NFL standards, not by human standards. Mitch's hands measured at 9 1/2...slightly smaller than the 9 3/5 that they're used to. 

I would think that hand size would play a bigger role catching the ball than holding onto it as a QB. Im not saying that it has no impact at all, but if I had to choose the two situations, I would think that catching the ball would be easier with bigger hands. You can have smaller hands but if you have good technique and dont hold the ball like a loaf of bread you'll likely not fumble as often. 

Allen will fumble the football like the rest of these guys, and it will probably be around 1 fumble every other game. 

Sanchez had big hands and he fumbled often.  In theory I think bigger hands should allow you to fumble less.  However, in practice, I believe guys with bigger hands are more careless and tend move around the pocket with the ball in one hand; thus, fumbling more than they should.  All things being equal I think a guy with bigger hands who properly navigates the pocket securing the ball with both hands would fumble less than a guy with smaller ones.

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, legler82 said:

I'm pretty sure by the time the draft came around Mahomes most scouts had him in the first round.  If not, then the "many talent evaluators" you are referencing were criminally wrong.  How in the world can Mayfield be considered a consensus 1st rounder and Mahomes not?  They are both Air Raid products with video game production from the same conference with Mahomes throwing for more yards roughly the same amount of TDs with a far inferior talent around him.  At some point they were even on the same team, where Mahomes ultimately won the job from the guy to got the job over Mayfield.  In a head to head match up Mahomes broke NCAA records for passing and total yards.  Mahomes was Mayfield on steroids; all the ability in a bigger frame and rare arm talent.  If he was just "good, not great prospect", then Mayfield is a slightly above average one.  Where was all the love for Mahomes last year?  Is it because he not as good a crotch grabber?  This is classic example of how the school they go to affects fans perception of prospects.

Lastly, if we are talking about these guys prospects, then we ought to stick to that.   You can't have it both ways.  I blame Mac from passing on who I believe was a great "prospect".  If I wait until Mahomes becomes the FQB he is destined to be, then you and others like you will say hindsight is 20/20.  That's what's unfair.  I'm saying Mac screwed royally now just as I did on draft day last year.  If Mahomes becomes Ryan Leaf, you and your buy Mac and come at me and that will be totally fair.

B

I don't want to get in a back and forth about this but earlier in this thread someone posted a list of top 10 QB prospects over the past three years (by Daniel Jeremiah on NFL.com)

Mahomes isn't even on the list - Mayfield, Rosen and Darnold are in the top 5.  Not saying this guys word in fact, but just an objective opinion. 

We can all have our opinions and I can respect yours - All I'm trying to say is killing Mac for not drafting Mahomes is unfair. 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000922045/article/top-10-qb-prospects-of-past-3-nfl-draft-classes-darnold-no-1

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, legler82 said:

Sanchez had big hands and he fumbled often.  In theory I think bigger hands should allow you to fumble less.  However, in practice, I believe guys with bigger hands are more careless and tend move around the pocket with the ball in one hand; thus, fumbling more than they should.  All things being equal I think a guy with bigger hands who properly navigates the pocket securing the ball with both hands would fumble less than a guy with smaller ones.

Exactly. That pretty much goes for an nfl QB with any size hands. Secure the football. 

[CTM]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Is this real or is this something you made up to trick me into drowning myself in the Long Island sound 

Why not both!

[legler82]

13 hours ago, jetspenguin said:

Everything you said about him is correct.....but this is also correct. He doesnt WIN, he is off target almost as much as he is on and when playing against superior talent he FOLDED up the tent and took his big arse arm home to flip pancakes.

He took Wyoming to back to back bowl games.  Something they hadn't accomplished in 30 years.  It will be another 30 years before they sniff another bowl game.  This past year they won every game he started that wasn't against a major conference team.  He didn't FOLD at the Senior Bowl, isn't that the definition of going against superior talent?

[legler82]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't want to get in a back and forth about this but earlier in this thread someone posted a list of top 10 QB prospects over the past three years (by Daniel Jeremiah on NFL.com)

Mahomes isn't even on the list - Mayfield, Rosen and Darnold are in the top 5.  Not saying this guys word in fact, but just an objective opinion. 

We can all have our opinions and I can respect yours - All I'm trying to say is killing Mac for not drafting Mahomes is unfair. 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000922045/article/top-10-qb-prospects-of-past-3-nfl-draft-classes-darnold-no-1

Well if Daniel Jeremiah left him off the list but included Mayfield, then I stand corrected .

[JustInFudge]

4 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

@T0mShane I have a story that will give Jets fans nightmares until draft day. 

What if I told you Hack was not a Mac or Bowles pick?

The truth is far more nauseating. This time 2 years ago, after failing to trade up for Goff/Wentz, Brian Heimerdinger was asked who his choice at QB would be after the big two. Heimerdinger requested a laptop from the scouting department and fielded a phone call from a mystery outside source, this source was apparently very high on Hack. Bowles was not high on the pick, saying "this pick is not on me". Hack, after sitting for the entire 2016 season and not showing much in practice or training camp that year, the Jets decided to bring in a new QB coach, a coach who thought he could work with Hack, a coach that received a phone call from Heimerdinger 2 years ago, a coach that is now our OC.

Hack was a Jeremy Bates pick.

It makes my stomach flip and I pray there is no validity to it. Drafting a QB that late doesn't generally bode well in terms of production so hopefully it was just a stab in the dark, I'd like to believe any of the top 4 are far better options than the choices Bates was initially given.

SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kelly]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:18 AM, SMC said:

Macc, who likes tall QBs with strong arms did not move up to 3 to take a weak-armed midget QB.

This is all about getting Darnold  

fixed ^ ^ 

[bla bla bla]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Interesting and thanks for passing this along. The ascension of Bates in the organization is all kinds of dubious. That they’d let him shape the future of the Jets QB position is a little scary. I mean, look at the guy’s career. The longest he’s lasted in any job is two years and was outright banished from the league for four.

 

By all accounts they really value his opinion and think he's a great offensive mind. Since Macc and Bowles are still here I'm cool with rolling with him as OC. 

[bla bla bla]

3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Wasn't Bates out of football at the time. And why the **** would our scouting department base a decision on an outsider? If true, heimendinger is a tool and Mac is a bigger tool.

Correct he was out of football, meaning he had no connection to any other team. Teams bring on advisors all the time. I'm not saying it was a good move, I'm just telling you what I've heard.

[bla bla bla]

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

How would you know a story like this?  And why would Hermindinger go outside the organization to make a pick that important, Mac would be insane to allow that.

PM'd

[MDL_JET]

5 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

 I have a story that will give Jets fans nightmares until draft day. 

What if I told you Hack was not a Mac or Bowles pick?

The truth is far more nauseating. This time 2 years ago, after failing to trade up for Goff/Wentz, Brian Heimerdinger was asked who his choice at QB would be after the big two. Heimerdinger requested a laptop from the scouting department and fielded a phone call from a mystery outside source, this source was apparently very high on Hack. Bowles was not high on the pick, saying "this pick is not on me". Hack, after sitting for the entire 2016 season and not showing much in practice or training camp that year, the Jets decided to bring in a new QB coach, a coach who thought he could work with Hack, a coach that received a phone call from Heimerdinger 2 years ago, a coach that is now our OC.

Hack was a Jeremy Bates pick.

It makes my stomach flip and I pray there is no validity to it. Drafting a QB that late doesn't generally bode well in terms of production so hopefully it was just a stab in the dark, I'd like to believe any of the top 4 are far better options than the choices Bates was initially given.

Sweet jesus. What are you trying to do to us??? We still have 5 weeks of small hope and it's shrinking by the day with stuff like this!

[jetspenguin]

2 hours ago, legler82 said:

He took Wyoming to back to back bowl games.  Something they hadn't accomplished in 30 years.  It will be another 30 years before they sniff another bowl game.  This past year they won every game he started that wasn't against a major conference team.  He didn't FOLD at the Senior Bowl, isn't that the definition of going against superior talent?

This my friend is the answer to your question. Your argument is that he has a great record against weaker competition? The senior bowl is a very, very small sample size that cannot overcome his large amount of tape and bad stats.

Any squirrel..