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Warfish

Crying Over Spilled Milk (Jets QB Situation)

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So it's pretty clear I've been doing ALOT of crying over spilled milk since FA started. 

--I'm deeply disappointed in this franchise for failing to get a definitive answer at QB in the best FA QB available in ages, Kirk Cousins.  Yes, it would have been grossly expensive, but yes, we could (and IMO should) have afforded it.  It's not every day a 4,500+ Yard 28+ TD Passer becomes available to a team with as horrid a QB record as us.  Our failure to spend what it takes is a symptom of this franchises longstanding failure at the QB position to do what it takes to be legit.

--I'm deeply disappointed in the General Manager and his horrid record of moves related to the QB position.  He's botched nearly every QB-related decision he's made.  Sure, Fitz-as-backup turnout out fine, but then he horribly bungled the Fitz resigning.  He drafted Petty (bust) in the high 4th.  He drafted (reached) Hackenberg, then Hackenshirted him his entire time here despite being the 51st pick in the draft (2nd Round).  Then he never put his foot down to make the Head Coach play the kid, to the point that a QB drafted #51 will be gone from us before he ever takes a snap in a game.  He's wasted money on placeholders (McCown) and even managed to screw up everyone favorite "tank" season.  He then doubles down on that placeholder for more then twice a reasonable market value. He failed to get Watson when Watson was sitting in his lap, ofting for....a Safety.  A good safety, but a safety.  Then he signs, sight unseen, Teddy Bridgewater, a Sanchez-esque flier.  Then he trades multiple picks that are high enough they should (under a good GM) be long term starters just to move up to get a QB.   I simply cannot have faith this man will make the right choice, and just because the wrong choice might get him fired doesn;t comfort me.  I don't want firings, I want a damn QB.

With all that said, no amount of Fishy tears will change any of it.  Not one single thing.

So trying to look forward, We're now at pick #3 in a draft widely considered to have four (or three to some) legit QB prospects.  No one can seemingly agree on which three are the best, nor can they agree on which one we should want, nor can they agree on which ones have the least/least vital flaws (and they ALL have material flaws).  If ever there was a "Danger Zone" for us picking a QB, a "Perfect Storm" of risk, this GM and this draft class appears to be it.

No one likes a downer, I get it.  And a chance at something is better than no chance at anything, I get that too.

And at the end of the day, if we draft any one of these kids, they've got to be better than starting a 87 year old Josh McCown.  I do get that, despite my bitching.

It's just so damn tiresome always being in a spot like this.  We seemingly never are in the right spot, we're always in the bad spot and have to spend a ton just to get in a sort ok'ish spot.  We're never the #1 pick in a Luck-type draft.  We're #6 in a draft full of ????. We never sign the great FA offensive player, we always sign castoffs, old men (especially old men running backs it seems, before they retire) and mediocre players our GM (who thinks he's smarter than everyone else) thinks will get better, and they almost never do.

I can't be the only one frustrated at this point.  I don't want a chance at maybe some future optimism.  I want results for a change.  Is that too much to ask for?

I suppose I better just hope all the pro-this guy and pro-that guy and pro-that other guy are ALL right, that this is 1983 all over again, with multiple future Super Bowl winner getting drafted.

I hope, for once in my damn life, we're the team that gets the good guy.  And not the team that drafts the Todd Blackledge of this draft class......

TLDR:  Sorry for all the bitching, but hopefully you understand.  

       

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My latest/hindsight take on Cousins is that I should have been out when the Steelers tagged Bell. Cousins was never going to do this sh*t by himself because no one does this sh*t by themselves anymore, if ever, and losing the top offensive weaponz FA to the franchise tag pretty much killed the dream.

I also am not at all pissed about the Harvard and McChin signings. Money was there, young QB talent wasn't, and I don't believe in tanking.

Finally - Todd Bowels has gotten a top ten (Fitz 2015) and top 20 (McCown 2017) out of JAGs at QBs. The last time the Jets ranked that high in DVOA or DYAR or both was waaaaaaay back with healthy Pennington. I got hope this whole QB nonsense is coming to an end sooner rather than later.

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They traded for Brandon Marshall and Ivory for 1 good year but other then that... yes they have been reckless in the offensive FA and Draft.

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Here's another take that just occurred to me as I was reading the OP.  Suppose instead of trading all our 2s and our 1, we stood pat and watched as the draft progressed for any moves we could make.  Baring any moves, we take the BEST AVAILABLE QB irregardless with our 2018 1 & 2 2s.  Never sign McCown and let the three of them plus Teddy fight out for the start.

I think I'll send in my GM application as soon as I post this :)   

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All I can say is, I've never been so indecisive and uncertain on a position group as I am this year with this QB class.  These dudes are all highly flawed both on and off the field and now we're staring at potentially the 3rd best of out what seems like a 4 horse race and the guy picking the QB has shown zero ability to identify talent at the QB position.

And then if blah blah blah was right about their "phone a friend" pick for Hack, I've legit never been so frightened of a pick in my life. 

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Accurate post, I think a lot of us are feeling this way. I don't even love Cousins, but I can't disagree that when you've got the Jets track record with QBs, going after and getting an established top 10 or even top 15 QB should be a no brainer. Go and draft a QB atv6vtoo if you feel you love one. Point is, the way the league is set up, keep getting every potential franchise QB available to you until have one.

Only thing I disagree with is the Bridgewater signing, and comparison to Sanchez. He's guaranteed $500k. Can be traded or cut before opening day and he costs us that, plus another $500k workout bonus if he makes it that far. If hes on the opening day roster, his salary is $5MM non-guaranteed. Can earn another $10MM in incentives. If he earns $16MM with the Jets this year, we will all be thrilled with their season.

And he's a potential FQB. I love him slightly less than Cousins when healthy, but at that money, I'd have the same complaint if they didn't give it a shot.

So definitely not anything like trading a first, second and 3 players to move up to 5 for Sanchez...

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the sanchez trade was a steal.  we essentially got him for a 2nd rd pick.  we exchanged 1st rd picks, we didn't give up a 1st rd pick and we gave a 2nd and 3 backup players.  we then made 2 title games w/ him starting.  That worked out great in the short term. unfortunately we decided to take away all his weapons to continue stockpiling on D even though we never came close to 2009's D again.
I liked Sanchez as much as anybody for 2 seasons + 3 games games. He was mostly average during that span, but played very well in some big games. Until Mangold went down and the Ravens D ruined him, left him shell-shocked.

Still don't see how any aspect of acquiring or signing him compares to Bridgewater's "prove you're more than a camp arm" deal.

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Yeah they should’ve put a gun to Cousins head and made him sign with the Jets, even though the Jets offered more money than the Vikings..
He may have made up his mind before it came time to talk contract, I don't know, but the Jets offer would have netted him less. And if you don't think those numbers were presented to him, you're wrong.

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1 minute ago, isired said:

I liked Sanchez as much as anybody for 2 seasons + 3 games games. He was mostly average during that span, but played very well in some big games. Until Mangold went down and the Ravens D ruined him, left him shell-shocked.

Still don't see how any aspect of acquiring or signing him compares to Bridgewater's "prove you're more than a camp arm" deal.

I was just discussing acquiring sanchez on draft day.  whether someone loves him or hates him they can't question that deal top move up to get him.  it was a steal.

as far as Teddy, the only ones that complain are the ones that complain about everything.  It's a no risk signing for a guy who was highly though of as a young QB before his injury.  He may never recover and if he doesn't it doesn't hurt us but if he does then we have a potential long term starter or potential trade bait if the rookie shows promise.

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I was just discussing acquiring sanchez on draft day.  whether someone loves him or hates him they can't question that deal top move up to get him.  it was a steal.
as far as Teddy, the only ones that complain are the ones that complain about everything.  It's a no risk signing for a guy who was highly though of as a young QB before his injury.  He may never recover and if he doesn't it doesn't hurt us but if he does then we have a potential long term starter or potential trade bait if the rookie shows promise.
Actually before his injury not even the Vikings were 100% convinced he was their guy (though he was popular amongst fans and the team/staff), but I agree it's well worth the shot.

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24 minutes ago, JiF said:

All I can say is, I've never been so indecisive and uncertain on a position group as I am this year with this QB class.  These dudes are all highly flawed both on and off the field and now we're staring at potentially the 3rd best of out what seems like a 4 horse race and the guy picking the QB has shown zero ability to identify talent at the QB position.

And then if blah blah blah was right about their "phone a friend" pick for Hack, I've legit never been so frightened of a pick in my life. 

What's that about? 

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7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Holy Sh---

There's still five weeks until the draft - it's going to get ugly around here! :-)

Sorry, just thinking outloud.

It could. 

But honestly we have so many folks who (IMO) seem to think Macc is doing everything perfectly, it's silly to want to keep bashing ones head against that wall. 

Arguing about it starts becoming tiresome when so many responses are like ****** posts, and boils down to "why are you complaining, Macc is perfect and did it perfectly, it just didn't work out.  How dare you question or brilliant GM!  We're in a perfect spot now!". :rolleyes: 

I'm surprised this forum has become so Ray Ray'esque honestly.  Every decision was good, every failure not the GM's fault, every future golden now.

/shrug

  

 

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

It could. 

But honestly we have so many folks who (IMO) seem to think Macc is doing everything perfectly, it's silly to want to keep bashing ones head against that wall. 

Arguing about it starts becoming tiresome when so many responses are like ****** posts, and boils down to "why are you complaining, Macc is perfect and did it perfectly, it just didn't work out.  How dare you question or brilliant GM!  We're in a perfect spot now!". :rolleyes: 

I'm surprised this forum has become so Ray Ray'esque honestly.  Every decision was good, every failure not the GM's fault, every future golden now.

/shrug

  

 

There is a difference between plan and execution. This plan is perfectly sound. The execution of it is the question

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54 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So it's pretty clear I've been doing ALOT of crying over spilled milk since FA started. 

--I'm deeply disappointed in this franchise for failing to get a definitive answer at QB in the best FA QB available in ages, Kirk Cousins.  Yes, it would have been grossly expensive, but yes, we could (and IMO should) have afforded it.  It's not every day a 4,500+ Yard 28+ TD Passer becomes available to a team with as horrid a QB record as us.  Our failure to spend what it takes is a symptom of this franchises longstanding failure at the QB position to do what it takes to be legit.

--I'm deeply disappointed in the General Manager and his horrid record of moves related to the QB position.  He's botched nearly every QB-related decision he's made.  Sure, Fitz-as-backup turnout out fine, but then he horribly bungled the Fitz resigning.  He drafted Petty (bust) in the high 4th.  He drafted (reached) Hackenberg, then Hackenshirted him his entire time here despite being the 51st pick in the draft (2nd Round).  Then he never put his foot down to make the Head Coach play the kid, to the point that a QB drafted #51 will be gone from us before he ever takes a snap in a game.  He's wasted money on placeholders (McCown) and even managed to screw up everyone favorite "tank" season.  He then doubles down on that placeholder for more then twice a reasonable market value. He failed to get Watson when Watson was sitting in his lap, ofting for....a Safety.  A good safety, but a safety.  Then he signs, sight unseen, Teddy Bridgewater, a Sanchez-esque flier.  Then he trades multiple picks that are high enough they should (under a good GM) be long term starters just to move up to get a QB.   I simply cannot have faith this man will make the right choice, and just because the wrong choice might get him fired doesn;t comfort me.  I don't want firings, I want a damn QB.

With all that said, no amount of Fishy tears will change any of it.  Not one single thing.

So trying to look forward, We're now at pick #3 in a draft widely considered to have four (or three to some) legit QB prospects.  No one can seemingly agree on which three are the best, nor can they agree on which one we should want, nor can they agree on which ones have the least/least vital flaws (and they ALL have material flaws).  If ever there was a "Danger Zone" for us picking a QB, a "Perfect Storm" of risk, this GM and this draft class appears to be it.

No one likes a downer, I get it.  And a chance at something is better than no chance at anything, I get that too.

And at the end of the day, if we draft any one of these kids, they've got to be better than starting a 87 year old Josh McCown.  I do get that, despite my bitching.

It's just so damn tiresome always being in a spot like this.  We seemingly never are in the right spot, we're always in the bad spot and have to spend a ton just to get in a sort ok'ish spot.  We're never the #1 pick in a Luck-type draft.  We're #6 in a draft full of ????. We never sign the great FA offensive player, we always sign castoffs, old men (especially old men running backs it seems, before they retire) and mediocre players our GM (who thinks he's smarter than everyone else) thinks will get better, and they almost never do.

I can't be the only one frustrated at this point.  I don't want a chance at maybe some future optimism.  I want results for a change.  Is that too much to ask for?

I suppose I better just hope all the pro-this guy and pro-that guy and pro-that other guy are ALL right, that this is 1983 all over again, with multiple future Super Bowl winner getting drafted.

I hope, for once in my damn life, we're the team that gets the good guy.  And not the team that drafts the Todd Blackledge of this draft class......

TLDR:  Sorry for all the bitching, but hopefully you understand.  

       

My opinion:

You, and many others, vastly underrate this QB class.  I think it is far better than Trubisky, Watson, Mahomes.  Even with Watson's amazing rookie performance. The Jets are in one of the best acquire QB positions that I can remember in such a long time.  

I know, I know... your a glass half-empty kind of guy. I understand that.   I've been reading your posts for nearly a decade here and on that now defunct Jets forum so I feel like I know how you think.  It's all good.  We all want success.  I'd just rather not dwell on the negative potential as often as so many of us do.  I, myself, am guilty of it way more often than I will admit.

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Kirk Cousins is 4-19 against teams that finished above .500. I am thrilled that he bailed us out by signing with Minnesota. I am also extremely happy that we traded up to the third pick and will be excited if we end up with any of Darnold, Rosen, or Mayfield.

The thing to complain about is that this organization knew that they wanted a QB in this draft and didn't do everything necessary to land a top 3 pick on their own. All Maccagnan had to do was force Bowles to go with Petty and Hack and we would have won at least 2 less games and had the number two pick which we would have due to winning the tiebreaker. My issue is that McCown cost this organization 3 second round picks but at this point just give me one of the top 3 QBs and I will have a reason to watch next season.    

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8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It could. 

But honestly we have so many folks who (IMO) seem to think Macc is doing everything perfectly, it's silly to want to keep bashing ones head against that wall. 

Arguing about it starts becoming tiresome when so many responses are like ****** posts, and boils down to "why are you complaining, Macc is perfect and did it perfectly, it just didn't work out.  How dare you question or brilliant GM!  We're in a perfect spot now!". :rolleyes: 

I'm surprised this forum has become so Ray Ray'esque honestly.  Every decision was good, every failure not the GM's fault, every future golden now.

/shrug

  

 

Yup - I like Mac but I get frustrated with him often - for instance I still can't wrap my head around the $10mm for McCown signing.  But I just don't think the guy is a moron.  I find myself defending him, probably too often and with too much ferver, because I find the hyperbole against him to be over the top.  

I'm sure he's an intelligent man, thrown into a tough situation.  He's made plenty of mistakees but he's also done some things well.  We all want the same thing here - and the next 5 weeks will be chock full of debate - mostly over 3 people and there will be a lot of noise on the side of each of them.

 

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27 minutes ago, peebag said:

Why worry?  Only 2 good things come out of this situation:

1 - We finally hit a decent QB in the draft or - 

2 - Mac and Cheese Bowles get canned.

easy peasy.

 

 

image.jpg

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I can't be the only one frustrated at this point.  I don't want a chance at maybe some future optimism.  I want results for a change.  Is that too much to ask for?

I suppose I better just hope all the pro-this guy and pro-that guy and pro-that other guy are ALL right, that this is 1983 all over again, with multiple future Super Bowl winner getting drafted.

I hope, for once in my damn life, we're the team that gets the good guy.  And not the team that drafts the Todd Blackledge of this draft class......

TLDR:  Sorry for all the bitching, but hopefully you understand.  

       

I went through my frustrated period last year.  I'm in the healing period now.

Maccagnan made some good FA signings in the past 10 days.  The trade up positions us either perfectly (if we covet Allen or Mayfield) or positions us better than any other NFL QB-needy team (if we get lucky and Darnold or Rosen drop).  I don't think any other GM could have played it better.

Also, notice recent Super Bowl history where it's becoming more and more possible to win a Championship with a not-so-elite traditional franchise quarterback.  In the last 6 years, we've seen Kaepernick, Wilson, Flacco, Newton, Manning (as ineffective old man), and Foles.   That's 50% of the quarterbacks appearing in the big game who aren't HOF caliber yet managed to eke through for that one magic year.

Point being, we know what we have now can't get us to the promised land but perhaps one of the top 4 in this year's draft can.

SAR I

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27 minutes ago, Pennington said:

The Washington Redskins were 4-19 against teams that finished above .500. I am thrilled that he bailed us out by signing with Minnesota. I am also extremely happy that we traded up to the third pick and will be excited if we end up with any of Darnold, Rosen, or Mayfield.

 

fixed

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