Crying Over Spilled Milk (Jets QB Situation)

[Thai Jet]

21 minutes ago, Dcronin said:

This is just general negativity and whining.

1. We offered the most money to Cousins. He said no. That's his choice. He went with a team that was a game away from Superbowl last year.

2. Even if and when the Bills slide in front of us, we are still sitting with an above-average chance of getting a decent starting QB for next year or year after. That's a great thing. It cost us 3 2nd rounders. Who gives a crap about our second round picks. They usually blow.

Feel good, man!

Thank you. That's what I was trying to tell warfish.

[slats]

30 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Mate, it's ALWAYS a question of money.  When a player tells you it wasn't about the money.....it was about the money.

There was a price where Cousins would have been a Jet.

It's about the money because Cousins wants to cash in a second time. Where does he have a better chance to put together big number? Playing for a good team in a dome, or a bad one in the Jersey swamp? As soon as Minny showed interest, it was a done deal. Elway bowed out and Mac offered him more money and he still picked the Vikes. 

I'm not upset that the Jets didn't give a good not great QB $35M/year -or whatever it would've taken- to give NY serious consideration. 

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

It's about the money because Cousins wants to cash in a second time. Where does he have a better chance to put together big number? Playing for a good team in a dome, or a bad one in the Jersey swamp? As soon as Minny showed interest, it was a done deal. Elway bowed out and Mac offered him more money and he still picked the Vikes. 

I'm not upset that the Jets didn't give a good not great QB $35M/year -or whatever it would've taken- to give NY serious consideration. 

Of course you're not upset, your fanatic years are long behind you, right?   Casual fans don't get upset.

But tell me, if Cousins throws for 4,500 yards and 30 TD's this year, leading the Vikes deep into the playoffs, and the Jets draft Allen, who sits (Hackshirts) all year, will you be "upset" then?

What about in 2019, if Cousins again throws for 4,000+ yards, a gaggle of TD's, and another deep playoff run.....and Allen starts, and plays poorly.  Upset then?

What about in 2020, when Cousins finishes up his 3 year deal with another great season.  And Allen gets worse than he was in 2019.  Would you be upset then?

Just curious, knowing the baseline of what makes a person upset helps gauge their investment in the issue.

Me, if I watch Cousins, and Watson too, look great.  And Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield (say) all look great (or even play great).  And we draft a guy who doesn't look great at all....I'd be upset.

And I have a feeling, call it a crazy hunch, that I might be upset sometime around now in 2018, 2019, etc.

Crystal Balls are funny things, fuzzy as they can be.  So we'll see.

[SMC]

5 hours ago, JiF said:

These dudes are all highly flawed both on and off the field and now we're staring at potentially the 3rd best of out what seems like a 4 horse race and the guy picking the QB has shown zero ability to identify talent at the QB position.

This sentence is perfection.  It perfectly encapsulates the monumental dilemma the Jets are in.

It's like being in an Old West duel and the other gunman has let you take the first shot, but you're near sighted.

[slats]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Of course you're not upset, your fanatic years are long behind you, right?   Casual fans don't get upset.

But tell me, if Cousins throws for 4,500 yards and 30 TD's this year, leading the Vikes deep into the playoffs, and the Jets draft Allen, who sits (Hackshirts) all year, will you be "upset" then?

What about in 2019, if Cousins again throws for 4,000+ yards, a gaggle of TD's, and another deep playoff run.....and Allen starts, and plays poorly.  Upset then?

What about in 2020, when Cousins finishes up his 3 year deal with another great season.  And Allen gets worse than he was in 2019.  Would you be upset then?

Just curious, knowing the baseline of what makes a person upset helps gauge their investment in the issue.

Me, if I watch Cousins, and Watson too, look great.  And Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield (say) all look great (or even play great).  And we draft a guy who doesn't look great at all....I'd be upset.

And I have a feeling, call it a crazy hunch, that I might be upset sometime around now in 2018, 2019, etc.

Crystal Balls are funny things, fuzzy as they can be.  So we'll see.

The crux of the issue is that I don't think Cousins was ever not going to go to Minnesota, so speculation about what he may have done in NY is moot. As a fan, casual or otherwise, it was always more interesting and fun for me to have the Jets draft their next potential franchise signal caller - and that's understanding full well that every one of these guys probably has a 50% chance, or more, of busting. 

Should the Jets decide to draft the one QB who fails while the other three go on to the HoF, I imagine that I'll be unhappy about that. Luckily, the silver lining in that event should be Mac and Bowles being shown the door. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

- his draft picks have not generally sucked - although not exceptional they've been solid..

Strongly disagree.  Which picks have been "solid?"  Williams and Adams were #6 overall and have been good.  Other than that who?  Jenkins is solid.  Shell?  Maybe, some day.  Name one other solid pick without qualifying it with draft position, need, or some other nonsense.  The punter?  Edited to add Maye.

- So are you saying two years ago it wasn't an aging roster? that two years later needed to be purged?

Two years ago?  Yeah, two years ago it was an aging roster.  Clady, Forte, Marshall, Revis, Harris, Cromartie all had to be replaced.  They were also were all brought in by Maccagnan as part of this youth movement rebuilding project.  When he got here the team had several hole,s but it only had 3 aging starters that needed to be replaced - Brick, Mangold and Pace.  Not exactly an ancient roster - meanwhile he "purged" us of 3 top defensive lineman for a 2nd, Kearse and a sh*tload of money, some we are still paying. 

I think my point aligns with yours (sort of) in that he did sign thos deals with Fitz, Marhall, Forte ect...it's my contention and I feel strongly about it - that his mandate, from ownerhship was to "win-now" rather than rebuild. When in reality the whole thing should have been blown up when he started (which is what Idzik was trying to do)

He didn't have the leeway to bring in young "potential" - and under those circumstance he built a team that won 10 games.

The theory that he was forced to win now is just that, a theory.  Even if management wanted to compete, there was enough money to do so.  He "built" a 10 win team on the back of a career year from a journeyman QB and provided nothing sustainable.  Literally, the only pieces left from that "build" are Williams, Skrine and Carpenter.  Two of those guys are likely cuts and not exactly fan favorites. 

He didn't have the leeway to bring in young potential, but teams like the Steelers can do it year after year?  WTF?  It is his job to bring in good, young, cheap talent.  Did he ever get a player that was two of the three? 

 

See above.  

I understand fighting with Warfish.  He wants to crucify the pick before it is made, but he has ever reason to lack confidence.  

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

The crux of the issue is that I don't think Cousins was ever not going to go to Minnesota, so speculation about what he may have done in NY is moot. As a fan, casual or otherwise, it was always more interesting and fun for me to have the Jets draft their next potential franchise signal caller - and that's understanding full well that every one of these guys probably has a 50% chance, or more, of busting. 

Should the Jets decide to draft the one QB who fails while the other three go on to the HoF, I imagine that I'll be unhappy about that. Luckily, the silver lining in that event should be Mac and Bowles being shown the door. 

Elway, Marino and Kelly?

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

The crux of the issue is that I don't think Cousins was ever not going to go to Minnesota, so speculation about what he may have done in NY is moot.

You're simply wrong on this point.  Money always talks, to every man.  There was a price where he was coming here.  The only meaningful debate is what that price was.

7 minutes ago, slats said:

As a fan, casual or otherwise, it was always more interesting and fun for me to have the Jets draft their next potential franchise signal caller - and that's understanding full well that every one of these guys probably has a 50% chance, or more, of busting. 

Of course, we all want to have "our guy" from the start, and have him be all-world.  

7 minutes ago, slats said:

Should the Jets decide to draft the one QB who fails while the other three go on to the HoF, I imagine that I'll be unhappy about that.

Thank god for that.

7 minutes ago, slats said:

Luckily, the silver lining in that event should be Mac and Bowles being shown the door. 

So I can at least be comforted by knowing Macc and Bowles might get fired in 2021 if their pick fails to thrive.  And all it cost us is three more seasons, lol.

[jetrider]

On March 20, 2018 at 2:17 PM, slats said:

The crux of the issue is that I don't think Cousins was ever not going to go to Minnesota, so speculation about what he may have done in NY is moot. As a fan, casual or otherwise, it was always more interesting and fun for me to have the Jets draft their next potential franchise signal caller - and that's understanding full well that every one of these guys probably has a 50% chance, or more, of busting. 

Should the Jets decide to draft the one QB who fails while the other three go on to the HoF, I imagine that I'll be unhappy about that. Luckily, the silver lining in that event should be Mac and Bowles being shown the door. 

Depends on if the pick failed or the environment/system/coaching failed the pick.

[freestater]

[slats]

8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're simply wrong on this point.  Money always talks, to every man.  There was a price where he was coming here.  The only meaningful debate is what that price was.

And I think that you are the one who's simply wrong here. Cousins wants to cash in a second time. So a few million in the first deal isn't as important as setting himself up for the second contract. The odds of crashing and burning is significantly greater outside in the northeast on a bad team than it is in a dome with a good team. He was never coming here. He didn't even give Mac the courtesy of a meeting. 

And I think it's been reported that the Jets did offer something like $10M more over three years. How much more than that were they supposed to offer? What imaginary number do you think Cousins would've jeopardized his future for?  

[FidelioJet]

54 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

See above.  

I understand fighting with Warfish.  He wants to crucify the pick before it is made, but he has ever reason to lack confidence.  

 

We could completely go back and forth on this  - He did make some solid picks - No GM nails every pick - while not great he hasn't shown incompetance.  

Of course it's a theory, but a based on the circumstances at the time it is a very logical and likely scenario - all we do around here is dicuss theories - with a whole lot of guess work.

Steelers have Ben - FQB's hide a lot of errors.

Lastly, I agree Warfish and anyone else does have every right to lack confidence - there has been enough bad if you want to view it that way.

All I'm trying to say is, IMO there has also been enough good to be optimistic that he can get the pick right.

Just want to add one point - Again, just a theory and based on only a feeling - Chris Johnson has taken a more hands off approach tr and letting Mac do his thing.  Trying to build stability and taking a smarter approach as an owner.  

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, slats said:

And I think that you are the one who's simply wrong here. Cousins wants to cash in a second time. So a few million in the first deal isn't as important as setting himself up for the second contract. The odds of crashing and burning is significantly greater outside in the northeast on a bad team than it is in a dome with a good team. He was never coming here. He didn't even give Mac the courtesy of a meeting. 

And I think it's been reported that the Jets did offer something like $10M more over three years. How much more than that were they supposed to offer? What imaginary number do you think Cousins would've jeopardized his future for?  

If the next CBA goes in the player's favor, a few million a year over 3 may end up being peanuts in the long run. If Cousins keeps tossing 4K seasons, in 2021 the sky is the limit.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

 

We could completely go back and forth on this  - He did make some solid picks - No GM nails every pick - while not great he hasn't shown incompetance.  

Of course it's a theory, but a based on the circumstances at the time it is a very logical and likely scenario - all we do around here is dicuss theories - with a whole lot of guess work.

Steelers have Ben - FQB's hide a lot of errors.

Lastly, I agree Warfish and anyone else does have every right to lack confidence - there has been enough bad if you want to view it that way.

All I'm trying to say is, IMO there has also been enough good to be optimistic that he can get the pick right.

Just want to add one point - Again, just a theory and based on only a feeling - Chris Johnson has taken a more hands off approach tr and letting Mac do his thing.  Trying to build stability and taking a smarter approach as an owner.  

Yeah.  Instead of typing all of that I should have just put "Agree to disagree."  I am interested in what draft picks you like, but if you mention them I will just pick them apart and we will go in circles.  Instead, I will leave a different theory.  Maccagnan signed a bunch of older free agents and used his high first to get a solid player and won Executive of the Year.  He may think that was his goal.  I sure hope that isn't what he is going for now.

[slats]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If the next CBA goes in the player's favor, a few million a year over 3 may end up being peanuts in the long run. If Cousins keeps tossing 4K seasons, in 2021 the sky is the limit.

That's an if. TV ratings are down, so you have to think the networks will want that addressed in their next deal with the league, and the owners are already planning for a lockout when this CBA is done. 

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If the next CBA goes in the player's favor, a few million a year over 3 may end up being peanuts in the long run. If Cousins keeps tossing 4K seasons, in 2021 the sky is the limit.

Yeah.  Instead of typing all of that I should have just put "Agree to disagree."  I am interested in what draft picks you like, but if you mention them I will just pick them apart and we will go in circles.  Instead, I will leave a different theory.  Maccagnan signed a bunch of older free agents and used his high first to get a solid player and won Executive of the Year.  He may think that was his goal.  I sure hope that isn't what he is going for now.

I agree.  The trade up was bold (although most agree it was a smart move) He needs to continue being agressive.

I think he has to not be affraid to take who he wants - i.e. If he likes Mayfield better than Allen then he needs to take him.  Based on most of the media - Taking Mayfield over Allen would be looked at a bad decision.

Not saying he should take Mayfield (althohgh I would prefer him)  - just an example of wanting him to do what he wants to do and not what he thinks will make him look the best. 

If he likes Allen better than Rosen then take Allen etc...

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Lastly, I agree Warfish and anyone else does have every right to lack confidence - there has been enough bad if you want to view it that way.

Indeed.

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

All I'm trying to say is, IMO there has also been enough good to be optimistic that he can get the pick right.

Um....there has?  Can you help me see what Macc has done that gives you this optimism?   

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Just want to add one point - Again, just a theory and based on only a feeling - Chris Johnson has taken a more hands off approach tr and letting Mac do his thing.  Trying to build stability and taking a smarter approach as an owner.  

Stability is only a good thing if you're being stable with the right guys.  Stable mediocrity and failure is just more of the same.

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

See above.  

I understand fighting with Warfish.  He wants to crucify the pick before it is made, but he has ever reason to lack confidence.  

Just to be clear, the people I wish to crucify is MAcc, followed closely by Bowles.

I'll judge our soon-to-be-pick on what he does.  On the field.

Given the lengths this place (and others like it) went to try to stay optimistic about guys like Geno.....and the way those same folks excused Geno's endless failings.  And Sanchez's before that.  I fully expect I'll be SEEN as being overly critical, but that's only because I'm not drunk on cool aid.  I'll call a turd a turd, even if it's OUR turd.

I have doubts on every QB in this draft, yes, as does every objective observer.  But they all have upper-level potential too.

So we'll have to see.

[southparkcpa]

8 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The jets offered Cousins more money to come here, he didn't even visit.  what else did we want them to do to try to get him? we offered him more money w/ a fully guaranteed contract.  He wanted to go to Minnesota and while I would have liked Cousins that deal was crazy and if we can hit on Teddy or the pick then we will be in much better shaped to build a contender around the QB.  This is really Macc's first chance at a QB, he took a chance on hack and it didn't work out but that wasn't a high 1st rounder.  we are now at #3, let's see how this plays out.

Several retired players live here in Charlotte, many current players. Ive spoken to many who know my passion for the Jets.  They all tell me, with an apology, they told their agents, PLEASE, not the Jets.  Im sure there was a window here , window there but in general, we have shown little to attract real FA talent.  Can you blame Cousins?

[Titan24]

9 hours ago, Warfish said:

So it's pretty clear I've been doing ALOT of crying over spilled milk since FA started. 

--I'm deeply disappointed in this franchise for failing to get a definitive answer at QB in the best FA QB available in ages, Kirk Cousins.  Yes, it would have been grossly expensive, but yes, we could (and IMO should) have afforded it.  It's not every day a 4,500+ Yard 28+ TD Passer becomes available to a team with as horrid a QB record as us.  Our failure to spend what it takes is a symptom of this franchises longstanding failure at the QB position to do what it takes to be legit.

--I'm deeply disappointed in the General Manager and his horrid record of moves related to the QB position.  He's botched nearly every QB-related decision he's made.  Sure, Fitz-as-backup turnout out fine, but then he horribly bungled the Fitz resigning.  He drafted Petty (bust) in the high 4th.  He drafted (reached) Hackenberg, then Hackenshirted him his entire time here despite being the 51st pick in the draft (2nd Round).  Then he never put his foot down to make the Head Coach play the kid, to the point that a QB drafted #51 will be gone from us before he ever takes a snap in a game.  He's wasted money on placeholders (McCown) and even managed to screw up everyone favorite "tank" season.  He then doubles down on that placeholder for more then twice a reasonable market value. He failed to get Watson when Watson was sitting in his lap, ofting for....a Safety.  A good safety, but a safety.  Then he signs, sight unseen, Teddy Bridgewater, a Sanchez-esque flier.  Then he trades multiple picks that are high enough they should (under a good GM) be long term starters just to move up to get a QB.   I simply cannot have faith this man will make the right choice, and just because the wrong choice might get him fired doesn;t comfort me.  I don't want firings, I want a damn QB.

With all that said, no amount of Fishy tears will change any of it.  Not one single thing.

So trying to look forward, We're now at pick #3 in a draft widely considered to have four (or three to some) legit QB prospects.  No one can seemingly agree on which three are the best, nor can they agree on which one we should want, nor can they agree on which ones have the least/least vital flaws (and they ALL have material flaws).  If ever there was a "Danger Zone" for us picking a QB, a "Perfect Storm" of risk, this GM and this draft class appears to be it.

No one likes a downer, I get it.  And a chance at something is better than no chance at anything, I get that too.

And at the end of the day, if we draft any one of these kids, they've got to be better than starting a 87 year old Josh McCown.  I do get that, despite my bitching.

It's just so damn tiresome always being in a spot like this.  We seemingly never are in the right spot, we're always in the bad spot and have to spend a ton just to get in a sort ok'ish spot.  We're never the #1 pick in a Luck-type draft.  We're #6 in a draft full of ????. We never sign the great FA offensive player, we always sign castoffs, old men (especially old men running backs it seems, before they retire) and mediocre players our GM (who thinks he's smarter than everyone else) thinks will get better, and they almost never do.

I can't be the only one frustrated at this point.  I don't want a chance at maybe some future optimism.  I want results for a change.  Is that too much to ask for?

I suppose I better just hope all the pro-this guy and pro-that guy and pro-that other guy are ALL right, that this is 1983 all over again, with multiple future Super Bowl winner getting drafted.

I hope, for once in my damn life, we're the team that gets the good guy.  And not the team that drafts the Todd Blackledge of this draft class......

TLDR:  Sorry for all the bitching, but hopefully you understand.  

       

Well written post and if you're like me.... just hit my 40s and this may finally be a chance to get it right.  Maybe they will for once that's all I (we) can hope for.  Not sure if any amount of $$$ would have swayed cousins and who knows maybe it's for the best.

Go get the kid

[dcJet]

7 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

If the Jets really really wanted Cousins like that, then they should have traded Washington for a 2nd round pick to get him and then tried to sign him accordingly. 

Yes it would be risky but it is what I would have done.................

But I have a simple rule if you don’t want to be in New York I don’t want  to pay you for the privilege.   

Under the circumstances Mac didn’t do that poorly.   

That's a one year rental.  You only give the 2 if you agree on a long-term contract before the trade.

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, Warfish said:

Well, I do try and be honest when I enter full-on-2-year-old-whining mode!

I.e. not critical thinking, just la la la hope and optimism.

You're right, we don't control anything. But is there not a point of pride at some point not simply slurping up whatever sewage we get served as fans?  A point where we stop patting the GM on the back for literally screwing up every decision he's made since he came on board, especially and specifically at the QB position?

 

Is it not possible to think this GM did a lousy job the first 3 years here, also being critical of some of the moves he's made so far this offseason, and yet thinking he did the right thing by trading up to 3?  Is that not an example of "critical thinking?"

[jetstream23]

10 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

I'm going to try to present our position in a more positive manner:

We dodged a bullet with Cousins.  He is a slightly better than average NFL starting quarterback.  Sure he's better than anything we have but he is not 90-guaranteed-million good.  That is a huge commitment, and if he was a disappointment we are stuck with him for at least three years and 90 million guaranteed.  All that time we would not be developing a young quarterback and he would be eating up a third of our cap.  

We are very likely to get someone pretty damn good at 3.   My guess is that it will be Rosen or Mayfield.*  Either one of these guys likely will be our QB for 10+ years and make us competitive on a consistent basis, long after Tom Brady retires.  I think each of them will be better than Cousins.

*Of course, if we draft Allen, I am taking back all of this optimistic crap.

The only disappointment I have about not signing Cousins is how it would have completely unlocked the Draft for the Jets.

Had they signed Cousins we'd have a bonafide starting caliber QB (a Top 10ish QB) for 3 years and we would have bought more time to find the next QB.  The Jets would also be drafting a STELLAR player at #6 with no need to move higher.  Given the expected early run on QBs the Jets would likely have finally solved their Edge rusher problem with B. Chubb, gotten a franchise altering RB in Barkley, or a potential HoF OG in Nelson.  They would also have come back in Round 2 with two very high picks.  Imagine Cousins standing behind Nelson at OG and Daniels at C, handing off to a guy like Ronald Jones or Nick Chubb.

That's the problem with not signing Cousins.  Instead, we've traded the #6, both 2nd's and a 2nd next year in the HOPES that the Jets land the right QB.  There's a huge difference....

• QB Cousins, OG Nelson, C Daniels, RB Ronald Jones

-OR-

• QB TBD with no NFL Experience

Just my perspective on where not signing Cousins has left us.

[Warfish]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Is it not possible to think this GM did a lousy job the first 3 years here, also being critical of some of the moves he's made so far this offseason, and yet thinking he did the right thing by trading up to 3?  Is that not an example of "critical thinking?"

Yes, that’s reasonable.

Do you have belief that a GM who did a lousy job for three years, especially at QB, will now know which of these QB’s that fall to us at #3 (likely Allen and Mayfield) is the right one?

 

[nyjunc]

16 hours ago, LWC611 said:

We can agree to disagree. 

that's what we are here for, we don't have to agree but I have never heard Minnesota didn't like teddy in any way.  That franchise was devastated when teddy went down, they were expecting big things from him that season and beyond. 

15 hours ago, isired said:

 

I just remember hearing it in 2015, and reading leading up the injury that he needed to have a good year, and remember that the Vikings got to the 2015 NFC Championship game with Bridgewater performing as a game manager, they didn't give him the opportunity to make plays or to hurt them trying to do so. I'm not saying he was bad, didn't mean to imply that, but in 16 starts he threw for 3,231 yards, 14 touchdowns, 9 interceptions and a 65.3 completion percentage in 2015 - not quite Keenum-type numbers (14 starts / 3,547 yds /22 TD / 7 INT / 67.6%).

The Vikings lost in the wild card round in 2015.  Teddy was a 2nd year QB who had improved across the board from a good rookie season.  He was a young, developing QB that basically had a good RB and a bunch of young receivers around him.  of course they were going to just let him throw 500 times.  The talent was very different in 2017.  Diggs was a rookie and his top WR, Thielen was developing(thielen was their best WR in 2017), Rudolph was coming off 2 injury plagued years where he barely played and this year was his 3rd healthy season in a row.  It was a very different team.

 

10 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

Several retired players live here in Charlotte, many current players. Ive spoken to many who know my passion for the Jets.  They all tell me, with an apology, they told their agents, PLEASE, not the Jets.  Im sure there was a window here , window there but in general, we have shown little to attract real FA talent.  Can you blame Cousins?

when players see bad teams the money needs to be much higher, if the money is close they will choose the better team.  I don't blame them, when we prove we are truly headed in the right direction FAs will start giving us a better look.  I think had Minnesota not gotten involved Cousins would have come here over the other teams involved but once Minny got involved and the money was close he was going to Minny.

I happen to think he would have been better here and not b/c I am a Jet fan.  In Minnesota the expectation is SB or bust, anything less than a SB app this year and Cousins is considered a failure.  They made the title game w/ Keenum and Cousins is supposed to be much better so the perception will be failure if they don't make the SB whereas here we are building some pieces and if we won 7 games he would be celebrated this year and could have been part of rebuilding into a contender a year or 2 down the road but athletes don't always look down the road, they take it year to year and his best chance to win is in Minnesota this year(we would think, things do change fast in this league).

[nyjunc]

16 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Mac was absolutely thrown into a very tough situation that only got worse with unexpected success.

He was hired with a lot of cap space and an aging veteran roster and because his predecessor was fired for trying to rebuild he was given a mandate to spend all of the money and attempt to win - all under the guise of "competitive rebuild" - this was a team that needed to be blown up three years ago - but our PR first owner didn't have the stomach for it...

He did enough to get the team to 10 wins - Unfortunately, the success of year 1 - forced him all in on year 2 - the horrible FitzMagic situation forced him to overpay a below average QB (yes, he had ZERO choice but to pay him) and their failure caused the lockerroom to explode and the team to fall apart...

Last year he began the rebuild he should have in the first place and if feels like things are moving in the right direction.  

In a vacum I agree, he's done a terrible job as the team has regressed since taking over - but I, personally, don't look at it that way - I try to view it as if I were given that job and things fell the way did for him it's not entirely on him.  

With all of that said - he's made a lot head scratching mistakes.  Hack being the big miss and the steadfast adherence to BPA.

I guess my point is, I belive the team is on the proper course right now and he's done enough good to give me faith that he's not in over his head and will continue to right the ship.

this is an excellent post.  Outstanding.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

We should all be concerned, based on history, the Jets will draft Josh Allen, who will bust, there will be more regime changes and another decade of incompetence / rebuilding

Mac has spent over $30m on Fitz and McCown and selected the worst QB drafted in years at #51 = Unforgivable crimes for sure but he is showing signs of learning on the job;

trading Sheldon like he should have done with Mo, traded up like he should have done for Wentz

Also there is hope at at pick 3 that 1 or 2 make that mistake and the QB falls to the Jets

Thursday, April 26 we will know if this is another rerun or a new episode worth watching

Yes, I am saying there is a chance

[Lith]

7 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The only disappointment I have about not signing Cousins is how it would have completely unlocked the Draft for the Jets.

Had they signed Cousins we'd have a bonafide starting caliber QB (a Top 10ish QB) for 3 years and we would have bought more time to find the next QB.  The Jets would also be drafting a STELLAR player at #6 with no need to move higher.  Given the expected early run on QBs the Jets would likely have finally solved their Edge rusher problem with B. Chubb, gotten a franchise altering RB in Barkley, or a potential HoF OG in Nelson.  They would also have come back in Round 2 with two very high picks.  Imagine Cousins standing behind Nelson at OG and Daniels at C, handing off to a guy like Ronald Jones or Nick Chubb.

That's the problem with not signing Cousins.  Instead, we've traded the #6, both 2nd's and a 2nd next year in the HOPES that the Jets land the right QB.  There's a huge difference....

• QB Cousins, OG Nelson, C Daniels, RB Ronald Jones

-OR-

• QB TBD with no NFL Experience

Just my perspective on where not signing Cousins has left us.

I agree with most of your thoughts.  One of the reasons I wanted Cousins was so we could keep our draft capital and build around a legit QB.  But, signing Cousins signing was not an option any longer when we made the move.  And it does not sound like Kirk ever really considered us, since he never visited and according to reports, he never actually spoke to anyone at the Jets before signing with Minny.

At that point, what do you.  Either you take the conservative route, and sit at 6 and build around the QB position and see who (if anyone) falls to you in the first or remains on the board in the 2nd, or you get aggressive, move your chips to the center of the table and go all in to get a QB.  It may not work out, but I am glad Macc is going for it.

Personally, I think we end up with Allen and I will be cursing Macc again on draft night.  But even if we get Allen, I will get over it and root for the guy.

[Villain The Foe]

21 hours ago, Warfish said:

So it's pretty clear I've been doing ALOT of crying over spilled milk since FA started. 

--I'm deeply disappointed in this franchise for failing to get a definitive answer at QB in the best FA QB available in ages, Kirk Cousins.  Yes, it would have been grossly expensive, but yes, we could (and IMO should) have afforded it.  It's not every day a 4,500+ Yard 28+ TD Passer becomes available to a team with as horrid a QB record as us.  Our failure to spend what it takes is a symptom of this franchises longstanding failure at the QB position to do what it takes to be legit.

--I'm deeply disappointed in the General Manager and his horrid record of moves related to the QB position.  He's botched nearly every QB-related decision he's made.  Sure, Fitz-as-backup turnout out fine, but then he horribly bungled the Fitz resigning.  He drafted Petty (bust) in the high 4th.  He drafted (reached) Hackenberg, then Hackenshirted him his entire time here despite being the 51st pick in the draft (2nd Round).  Then he never put his foot down to make the Head Coach play the kid, to the point that a QB drafted #51 will be gone from us before he ever takes a snap in a game.  He's wasted money on placeholders (McCown) and even managed to screw up everyone favorite "tank" season.  He then doubles down on that placeholder for more then twice a reasonable market value. He failed to get Watson when Watson was sitting in his lap, ofting for....a Safety.  A good safety, but a safety.  Then he signs, sight unseen, Teddy Bridgewater, a Sanchez-esque flier.  Then he trades multiple picks that are high enough they should (under a good GM) be long term starters just to move up to get a QB.   I simply cannot have faith this man will make the right choice, and just because the wrong choice might get him fired doesn;t comfort me.  I don't want firings, I want a damn QB.

With all that said, no amount of Fishy tears will change any of it.  Not one single thing.

So trying to look forward, We're now at pick #3 in a draft widely considered to have four (or three to some) legit QB prospects.  No one can seemingly agree on which three are the best, nor can they agree on which one we should want, nor can they agree on which ones have the least/least vital flaws (and they ALL have material flaws).  If ever there was a "Danger Zone" for us picking a QB, a "Perfect Storm" of risk, this GM and this draft class appears to be it.

No one likes a downer, I get it.  And a chance at something is better than no chance at anything, I get that too.

And at the end of the day, if we draft any one of these kids, they've got to be better than starting a 87 year old Josh McCown.  I do get that, despite my bitching.

It's just so damn tiresome always being in a spot like this.  We seemingly never are in the right spot, we're always in the bad spot and have to spend a ton just to get in a sort ok'ish spot.  We're never the #1 pick in a Luck-type draft.  We're #6 in a draft full of ????. We never sign the great FA offensive player, we always sign castoffs, old men (especially old men running backs it seems, before they retire) and mediocre players our GM (who thinks he's smarter than everyone else) thinks will get better, and they almost never do.

I can't be the only one frustrated at this point.  I don't want a chance at maybe some future optimism.  I want results for a change.  Is that too much to ask for?

I suppose I better just hope all the pro-this guy and pro-that guy and pro-that other guy are ALL right, that this is 1983 all over again, with multiple future Super Bowl winner getting drafted.

I hope, for once in my damn life, we're the team that gets the good guy.  And not the team that drafts the Todd Blackledge of this draft class......

TLDR:  Sorry for all the bitching, but hopefully you understand.  

       

I feel you on this. Some felt like I was crying over not getting Cousins also, well its because everyone is crying during the regular season on our way to a 5-11 record. Then the moment offseason begins it's like we cant get upset at the same nonsense that we've seen year after year, not because it's wrong, but because folks want to believe so bad that "its different this time". All I've seen is alot of the same. Do I like the trade up to 3? Sure, given our QB situation. But we've had numerous opportunities to address this QB situation as you've stated above. Macc's decision making at this position is also not so comforting. 

Am I nervous about Macc's decision making this upcoming draft? Sure, because I can see make taking a guy with all of the potential/measurements but not the production (Josh Allen). And im not hating on Allen, im just saying that we did this exact same thing with both Petty and Hackenberg. Petty I can understand given that it was a 4th round pick, but Hackenberg was a total reach, and I bet he made that pick listening to Bill O'Brien glowingly speaking about his potential while he was working with the Texans organization. Nothing on tape indicated that Hack was worth that spot. Since Macc's tenure the Jets have fielded nothing but journeymen at the position and the only reason any of the drafted QB's received any playing time was based on injuries. Yet in my personal situation, anytime I express this folks who are sick of me stating facts prefer to talk about Mike Glennon. Sure, it's funny, but it doesnt dismiss the fact of the matter. 

You have every right to feel the way you feel because history supports it. Sure, it was a good move to move up to get your guy this year, but if we would ave picked Watson last year we could have kept those 4 picks and built around Watson. 

This is the life of a NY Jets fan. 

[Jethead]

My biggest criticism of Mac is that he’s been unlucky. I want the Jets GM to be a lucky sob who is criticized for doing everything wrong and then having things miraculously work out.

Let’s fire Mac and hire that guy! Oh, wait...

[Thai Jet]

19 hours ago, slats said:

As discussed before free agency, it made no sense for Cousins to come here. He wants the opportunity to cash in again. So where was he gonna go? To a bad team playing in a northeast swamp? Or a good team playing in a dome? This was a done deal as soon as the Vikings expressed interest. And Mac knew it, hence why he was so quick to pivot when his higher offer was rejected. 

If they land a franchise QB in this year's draft, those second rounders will be forgotten. For those three picks, the Jets went from potentially being shut out of the top four QBs to having their choice from at least two of them. We'd all prefer a sure thing, but I can't criticize him simply improving his odds. 

And all the coulda-woulda-shoulda is definitely spilled milk whining, so good job on the thread title. I'm not gonna worry about what's done or what I can't control, I'm just gonna hope they surprise us all and land a real QB. 

Playing inside a dome was a large factor in turning down the Jets better offer. Cousins has verbalized this. How much money does one really need ? He wants a good shot to win a ring and he thinks Minny is it. I can't argue his logic.

[jamesr]

21 hours ago, Dcat said:

My opinion:

You, and many others, vastly underrate this QB class.  I think it is far better than Trubisky, Watson, Mahomes.  Even with Watson's amazing rookie performance. The Jets are in one of the best acquire QB positions that I can remember in such a long time.  

I know, I know... your a glass half-empty kind of guy. I understand that.   I've been reading your posts for nearly a decade here and on that now defunct Jets forum so I feel like I know how you think.  It's all good.  We all want success.  I'd just rather not dwell on the negative potential as often as so many of us do.  I, myself, am guilty of it way more often than I will admit.

I posted a link in another thread to an article that ranks the last three year's QBs based on their draft grade ...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000922045/article/top-10-qb-prospects-of-past-3-nfl-draft-classes-darnold-no-1

4 of the top 6 are in this years draft. This made me feel a LOT better about the choice we have coming up.

It's easy with hindsight to forget that all these guys had questions coming out. Goff & Wentz were higher rated and went 1-2, but Trubisky / Mahomes / Watson had plenty questions and only one went Top 10.

My main concern overall is - picking the guy is the start of the process, not the end. You only got the right guy if you can work with him, coach him up and help him realise his potential. None of these guys can / will do it all on their own. I just hope Bates especially is the guy for the job. I have to trust that he is. And that he gets the time he needs to see that job through.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

.....because folks want to believe so bad that "its different this time".

Amen.

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Do I like the trade up to 3? Sure, given our QB situation.

Agreed.  Grudgingly, as I think one of the four would have been there at #6, but I could be wrong, we'll see.

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

But we've had numerous opportunities to address this QB situation as you've stated above. Macc's decision making at this position is also not so comforting. 

Am I nervous about Macc's decision making this upcoming draft? Sure

Amen.

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Yet in my personal situation, anytime I express this folks who are sick of me stating facts prefer to talk about Mike Glennon. Sure, it's funny, but it doesnt dismiss the fact of the matter. 

Miiiiike......Glennnnnnnnon.......

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

You have every right to feel the way you feel because history supports it.

Thank you.  It's funny how quick many Jets fans are to stomp all over (and question the "fandom" of) folks having moments of frustration or issues of disagreement.

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

This is the life of a NY Jets fan. 

Indeed.

[Bruce Harper]

9 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The only disappointment I have about not signing Cousins is how it would have completely unlocked the Draft for the Jets.

Had they signed Cousins we'd have a bonafide starting caliber QB (a Top 10ish QB) for 3 years and we would have bought more time to find the next QB.  The Jets would also be drafting a STELLAR player at #6 with no need to move higher.  Given the expected early run on QBs the Jets would likely have finally solved their Edge rusher problem with B. Chubb, gotten a franchise altering RB in Barkley, or a potential HoF OG in Nelson.  They would also have come back in Round 2 with two very high picks.  Imagine Cousins standing behind Nelson at OG and Daniels at C, handing off to a guy like Ronald Jones or Nick Chubb.

That's the problem with not signing Cousins.  Instead, we've traded the #6, both 2nd's and a 2nd next year in the HOPES that the Jets land the right QB.  There's a huge difference....

• QB Cousins, OG Nelson, C Daniels, RB Ronald Jones

-OR-

• QB TBD with no NFL Experience

Just my perspective on where not signing Cousins has left us.

Pat Kirwan (who, as we know, was not a particularly good front-office exec) pointed out another interesting thing about signing Cousins.  Even if it worked out, if we didn't give him the long-term deal after year three, he could have forced us to franchise him (for 43 million guaranteed for one year) or walk.  If he was a young Drew Brees or Aaron Rogers, it's a no-brainer, but this guy simply is not good enough to justify that kinda dough, and even if he played well we might have only had him for three years.  I'm not sure how that works but Kirwan said that was a real number.

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

Yes, that’s reasonable.

Do you have belief that a GM who did a lousy job for three years, especially at QB, will now know which of these QB’s that fall to us at #3 (likely Allen and Mayfield) is the right one?

It certainly lowers the risk of a bust when we're picking higher.  Even terrible organizations like the Lions (Stafford), Colts (Luck), and Titans (Mariota) were able to find franchise QB's by picking high. 

There are 3 guys I like.  Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield.  And we're picking 3rd.  Take one of those guys and let's go to war. 

Blind squirrel.  Nut. 

(Note:  All this goes out the window if we take Josh Allen.  I will join you with a pitchfork if that happens.)

[jetstream23]

2 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

Pat Kirwan (who, as we know, was not a particularly good front-office exec) pointed out another interesting thing about signing Cousins.  Even if it worked out, if we didn't give him the long-term deal after year three, he could have forced us to franchise him (for 43 million guaranteed for one year) or walk.  If he was a young Drew Brees or Aaron Rogers, it's a no-brainer, but this guy simply is not good enough to justify that kinda dough, and even if he played well we might have only had him for three years.  I'm not sure how that works but Kirwan said that was a real number.

I would take him for the 3 years and pray that at some point the Jets could find his replacement in the Draft.  Could have even signed him this year and drafted a guy like Lauletta in the 2nd.