Another athlete opinion: Phil Simms would take Josh Allen #1

[Grandy]

2 minutes ago, HessStation said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/phil-simms-is-not-impressed-with-the-2014-nfl-draft-qb-class/amp/

 

Simms had

1 Bortles

2 Manziel

3 Bridgewater

4. Carr 

To be fair, it's only bad in hindsight. It was actually how the draft fell, and he was spot on about that.

[Patriot Killa]

23 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I hope you're not referring to me.  I have Allen as my 4th QB behind Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield.

I'm simply sharing a link and the perspective of Phil Simms.

And don't worry, we still have 5 weeks of this stuff to go!  

No, not you. Though this link only helps their cause lol.

18 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I think many of convincing themselves he is good hoping browns take him. But Every Jet fan is going to jump up and cheer at the tv if browns or giants pick Allen lol.

You know..they very well might do that.

[HessStation]

2 minutes ago, Grandy said:

To be fair, it's only bad in hindsight. It was actually how the draft fell, and he was spot on about that.

To be fair? I said EJ Manuel would probably be the best qb in that class. He was picked first. What do I win lol?

all it shows was he was as wrong as the rest of the league 

[ScarletKnight89]

Simms and Boomer both think Allen should go number 1. I'm not sure if Boomer thinks Allen is the best QB or if he's just the QB he thinks the Browns will take. It's somewhat interesting I guess. I'm still not a fan. Give me Mayfield and i'll be ecstatic, but I can also live with Darnold or Rosen.

[bitonti]

40 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Fcking rights. 

This thing is out of control. It's become Malcolm Gladwell "Tipping Point" material. There is absolutely, 100%, unequivocally zero grounds for taking Josh Allen over Darnold/Rosen. Even those that LIKE Allen would tell you the same thing. 

This is getting absurd -- and the person who's going to suffer the most from this? Josh Allen - who should be going into a low pressure situation like Pat Mahomes was afforded. This not going that direction right now. 

 

If the Jets draft Josh Allen he will be QB3 they aren't going to throw him into the fire anytime soon. In fact it buys Mac time, which is like his only motivation in life.  The biggest armed player is also the fastest and the tallest.   

As for Darnold and Rosen, the JEts don't play in Southern California. Met Life stadium doesn't have a roof. 

being the QB for a team that's outmanned and plays in crap weather, that's a more relevant college experience than Rosen vs Darnold who can bang the most cheerleaders on the sunniest day. also the last time the jets drafted a So cal dude he created the buttfumble. 

 

so my point is yes in a vacuum Darnold maybe the best QB in the last 10 years I still don't think he or rosen are great fits for this market or this team. They are going to show up and realize football isn't as much fun as they thought it was.  Josh Allen already knows. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 hour ago, k-met57 said:

no, whats "disgustingly stupid" is posters having enough conviction about a guy that they start thinking its fact. you can have an opinion, but realize...ITS FOR FUN...you (more than) likely don't know jack about jack when it comes to grading a QB.

He won’t be good. You can come back in 4 years to this very thread and bow to me as God of QB evaluation. 

I’ll accept all apologies in form of checks/physical dollars.

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

I don’t understand why it’s considered so batsh*t crazy that some of us prefer Allen over Mayfield.

I still firmly believe that Darnold and Rosen are the Top 2 guys...but after them? It gets a bit murky.

And if I’m gambling on the 3rd/4th guy in this class...yeah, give me the one with the insane upside over the one who is a shade over 6’0 and has shown a tendency to do dumb sh*t both on and off the football field.

 

Fair enough.

I don’t like inaccurate QB’s though. Mayfield has a set of skills that appeal to me and give me something to put belief behind. Upside is something I always hear and it rarely gets fulfilled. That height doesn’t mean as much to me as much as the work that would need to be done for Allen to actually look OK. If you can’t throw it accurate in college where the windows of opportunity in completing a pass are a lot wider..hows it gonna look in the Pros?

[Stark]

34 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Right. Just because a guy can play QB doesn’t mean he can see it in other’s if they can play or not. 

Jordan Palmer is one of the biggest after thoughts ever but now he is regarded as a “footwork/QB mechanics Guru”

he's done wonders for Hackenberg 

[Warfish]

50 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

But what does Phil know about drafting, developing and coaching QB's while managing a large diverse roster of talent and the cap compared to us?

FYP

For the record, it's easy for a TV talking head to say "I'd draft X, Y, or Z".  

They have no accountability, and no one will remember (or care) that they liked X, Y or Z.

Playing QB =/= Evaluating QB Prospects.  On the contrary, the best players make some of the poorest talent evaporators.

If that weren't the case, wouldn't EVERY NFL GM be an ex-NFL QB?

We're really ramping up the "Allen was really the clear cut best QB in this draft (but not because he's the QB who fell to us, nope!)" hype, eh?

[HessStation]

14 minutes ago, SMC said:

Coach-Him-Up

That's the idea with Josh Allen.  He's a physical beast.  Some coaches, scouts and media folks like Phil Simms see a non-rapey Ben Roethlisberger.

Allen is big, has a cannon and is mobile. He's not a dick.  People think they can mold him into a QB because the measurables are great. 

Not saying that's a good way to evaluate, but that's obviously what's going on.  The choice in order would be Darnold, Rosen, Allen for me.

Simms has an easy MO. Take the nice, biggest, strongest armed kid every time 

[k-met57]

2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

He won’t be good. You can come back in 4 years to this very thread and bow to me as God of QB evaluation. 

I’ll accept all apologies in form of checks/physical dollars.

he may not be good, i wont argue that...but he may be good...i dont think you or i or anyone here is qualified to make that judgement. its just a bunch of guys throwing sh*t at the wall, thats what this board is.

[HessStation]

Btw I taught Phill Simms how to boogey board, true story 

[Warfish]

48 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Meanwhile Allen lands in Buffalo, everyone initially laughs at them, and then Allen proceeds to drill it up our assh0les rain, sleet or snow for the next 15 years...

At least we’ll still have Baker’s “moxie” though...

The perenial Jets Fan Mantra "We MUST do this, or (insert rival here) will get him, and beat us!"

Nothing like living every moment in perpetual fear the Pats/Phins/Bills will steal our jerbs and beat us with them!

 

I bet if Cousins had been thinking of going to the Dolphins, THEN everyone here would have been all-in on signing him, lol.

[k-met57]

Just now, HessStation said:

Simms has an easy MO. Take the nice, biggest, strongest armed kid every time 

do u know what the success ratio is of 6'5 QB's with a cannon compared to 6 foot QB's with a water pistol is? its not a completely unfounded philosophy...one that many teams follow.

[Gangrene]

Phil Simms cited Mark Sanchez's footwork as the best he had ever seen in a college athlete.

Was he wrong ? Possibly not for Dancing with the Stars. 

Phil makes some good, if somewhat isolated, points.

 

"Hello everybody, I have five days. I am not as averse to drafting Josh Allen as I once was".

Looking into football history, to me the bigger factor hinging on Josh Allen's success is where he lands, much like the other three qbs.

Comparing him to Kyle Boller in college is not legitimate, Kyle Boller was special bad... significantly worse than Christian Hackenberg in college.

Go back and compare Allen with Eli Manning's college record, Manning had one more year of college ball but equally uneven/medicore.

Manning sucked deflated footballs for 3+ years in the pros but the Giants drafted well on defense and were well coached with Coughlin. He turned the corner, got a little lucky and now has as many Super Bowls as his famous brother.

Josh Allen may be damaged goods from getting hammered too much behind a porous line in college. However put him behind an above average line, with a decent/patient coach who tailors a game to Allen's strengths... he's probably going to need talent around him.

 Sheee-it Aaron Rogers for all his other worldly talent, he has only managed one Super Bowl. The reason why the Jets have not won a Super Bowl has as much to do with scouting as coaching.

Are the Jets capable of surrounding Josh Allen with enough talent to win? Looking at the recent draft history of the Jets front office, I would have to say no, they are unlikely to be able to put it all together. Mike McCagnan is a very nice man, which is about the best you can say about him.

 

 

[ljr]

21 minutes ago, SMC said:

Coach-Him-Up

That's the idea with Josh Allen.  He's a physical beast.  Some coaches, scouts and media folks like Phil Simms see a non-rapey Ben Roethlisberger.

Allen is big, has a cannon and is mobile. He's not a dick.  People think they can mold him into a QB because the measurables are great. 

Not saying that's a good way to evaluate, but that's obviously what's going on.  The choice in order would be Darnold, Rosen, Allen for me.

Maybe they see him as equally rapey ... Just with horses instead of women ... So no worry about it being disclosed after the draft 

[BurnleyJet]

If the Browns take Allen 1# I may just c#m in my pants. Also the rest of the league may offer The Giants their whole draft to move up.

[HessStation]

8 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

do u know what the success ratio is of 6'5 QB's with a cannon compared to 6 foot QB's with a water pistol is? its not a completely unfounded philosophy...one that many teams follow.

Apples and oranges, but obviously the fail rate on 6'5 rocket arms is extremely high. 

 

And in actuality, when given a fair chance the shorter QBs have had a pretty good success rate, however based off a much smaller pool.

[Skeptable]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

What are the odds that Phil Sims has seen 2 seconds of Josh Allen play football? 

Very good, Phil Simms is a film junky.... He watches film as a hobby all year round.  There is a very good chance he has seen every throw that these QBs have thrown.  I wouldn't dismiss him that fast. Boomer also thinks Allen will go #1. 

[RESNewYork]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

What are the odds that Phil Sims has seen 2 seconds of Josh Allen play football? 

Honestly I would bet Phil has seen more film on these QBs than all the posters here combined.  And Phil actually understands what he's watching. 

Boomer in the mornings is always talking about Phil being a film junkie. 

[SMC]

7 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

Phil Simms cited Mark Sanchez's footwork as the best he had ever seen in a college athlete.

Was he wrong ? Possibly not for Dancing with the Stars. 

Phil makes some good, if somewhat isolated, points.

 

Going into the Steelers AFCCG, we all thought Sanchez had the makings of a star.  Don't fall for revisionist history.  Sanchez just beat Peyton and Brady in back-to-back weeks.  Or how about that 1 minute comeback with no TOs against the Texans that same season. He was brilliant in that 4th quarter and screamed having "It" then

Things fell apart for Sanchez for a variety of reasons (including off-the-field issues), so it's not like Phil was wrong in his assessment.

As to Phill's other takes, Hess is right about the big, strong armed QBs.  Phil was one of them in his time.  He believes in that mold. Peyton, Brady, Big Ben are in that mold as well.  That's a preference.

[jack48]

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

But what does Phil know about playing QB compared to us?

Phil loves big arms

[Untouchable]

15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The perenial Jets Fan Mantra "We MUST do this, or (insert rival here) will get him, and beat us!"

Nothing like living every moment in perpetual fear the Pats/Phins/Bills will steal our jerbs and beat us with them!

 

I bet if Cousins had been thinking of going to the Dolphins, THEN everyone here would have been all-in on signing him, lol.

Oh, when it comes to the Pats signing one of our castoffs like LaMont Jordan, Leon Washington, Victor Hobson, Chris Baker, Shaun Ellis, etc and Jets fans sh*tting their pantaloons over the possibility of the Pats turning then into stars...I’m right there with you.

This? This is different. We’re talking about a potential franchise QB for the next 12-15 years. Complete franchise-altering sh*t.

If the Bills ended up walking away with Allen and we get Mayfield, I’d at least be excited that we possibly solved our QB situation for the next decade. But in the back of my mind...yes, some doubt will have crept in. Regardless of whether you like Allen or not, to deny his upside is just dumb. He has the most raw potential of any QB in this draft or in recent memory. He could turn out to be a bust, or he could be an Elway/Roethlisberger with the skills to carry an offense on his back if need be.

And with the Jets giving up multiple picks to get to #3, I say go big or go home.

 

[SMC]

5 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

If the Browns take Allen 1# I may just c#m in my pants. Also the rest of the league may offer The Giants their whole draft to move up.

Don't be surprised if the the draft goes Allen and Barkley 1 & 2.  The question then will be how quickly Macc's head will explode.

[SouthernJet]

I think he said also that he thinks Jets like the best and will take Mayfield.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Untouchable said:

Oh, when it comes to the Pats signing one of our castoffs like LaMont Jordan, Leon Washington, Victor Hobson, Chris Baker, Shaun Ellis, etc and Jets fans sh*tting their pantaloons over the possibility of the Pats turning then into stars...I’m right there with you.

I thought you were, hence why I was a bit surprised....

1 minute ago, Untouchable said:

This? This is different. We’re talking about a potential franchise QB for the next 12-15 years.

Or, statistically more likely, a potential bust/JAG.  But sure.

1 minute ago, Untouchable said:

If the Bills ended up walking away with Allen and we get Mayfield, I’d at least be excited that we possibly solved our QB situation for the next decade. But in the back of my mind...yes, some doubt will have crept in. Regardless of whether you like Allen or not, to deny his upside is just dumb. He has the most raw potential of any QB in this draft or in recent memory. He could turn out to be a bust, or he could be an Elway/Roethlisberger with the skills to carry an offense on his back if need be.

Each of the top five guys (including Jackson) have legit potential and upside.

Each of the top five guys (including Jackson) comes with some massive flaws and risks.  Really obvious ones.

1 minute ago, Untouchable said:

And with the Jets giving up multiple picks to get to #3, I say go big or go home.

Well, having already traded three #2's, I know there is a meaningfully large contingent here at JN who want to trade an additional 4-6 picks (based on the Chicago 3->2 trade cost est.) to now move up to #2.

I feel like this is crazypants, but /shrug.

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, SMC said:

Don't be surprised if the the draft goes Allen and Barkley 1 & 2.  The question then will be how quickly Macc's head will explode.

Along with a goodly portion of the posters here, who get to watch Macc pick between Darnold and Rosen, lol.

Suck for Sam may have worked after all, eh?

[Gangrene]

7 minutes ago, SMC said:

Going into the Steelers AFCCG, we all thought Sanchez had the makings of a star.  Don't fall for revisionist history.  Sanchez just beat Peyton and Brady in back-to-back weeks.  Or how about that 1 minute comeback with no TOs against the Texans that same season. He was brilliant in that 4th quarter and screamed having "It" then

Things fell apart for Sanchez for a variety of reasons (including off-the-field issues), so it's not like Phil was wrong in his assessment.

As to Phill's other takes, Hess is right about the big, strong armed QBs.  Phil was one of them in his time.  He believes in that mold. Peyton, Brady, Big Ben are in that mold as well.  That's a preference.

I think Allen goes 1 or 2. If he is still there at three and the Jets draft him, I won't be upset...

The five top qbs in the draft are wildly different but I think they've all got a shot at making their mark in this league. 

[jmat321]

I remember Phil saying Mark Sanchez "Has all the tools"

[Thai Jet]

59 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I hope you're not referring to me.  I stupidly have Allen as my 4th QB behind Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield.

I'm simply sharing a link and the perspective of Phil Simms.

And don't worry, we still have 5 weeks of this stuff to go!  

Fixed it. lol    Yeah ONLY 5 more weeks of this.

[Paradis]

47 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

That's simply not true. 

These were the first 3 mock drafts for the 2018 Draft I found dating back to last April/May

Mcshay's mock draft from last May had Allen at 2: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2017/insider/story/_/id/19294111/todd-mcshay-way-too-early-2018-mock-draft-nfl-draft

Here's mock draft from last April had Allen at 6: https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/2018-nfl-mock-draft-the-way-too-early-two-round-projection-042917

Matt Miller's mock draft from last May had Allen at 2. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2706876-2018-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-way-too-early-predictions

Talent evaluators, if anything, have been uber consistent in their feelings for Allen for well over a year now. 

Ok let me correct/clarify myself... 

During the 2016 season, as QBs for the 2017 draft were being discussed and evaluated - Josh was not looked at as this uber-gem that he is now. He got extra attention in december/january (before he decided to return to for 2017 season) because quite frankly, Trubisky and Watson were the only names in the draft and Allen was kind of the "other guy" that some thought might make it an interesting discussion.

McShay's has obviously had a hard on for Allen since dating back - so my bad, maybe that guy has always been about Allen... But posting links to mock drafts "Post-2017 draft" aren't convincing me of anything. I didn't say he only became a name just last fall...

I said, he wasn't viewed as top 10 pick going into the 2017 draft had he declared. Then he suddenly he became viewed as this top prospect, while playing no/worse football. 

This is over simplifying the whole situation -- but my point stands. His praise/following has materialized out of FOMO more than prudent scouting/assessment.

[Thai Jet]

3 minutes ago, jmat321 said:

I remember Phil saying Mark Sanchez "Has all the tools"

You miss quoted. He said Sanchez WAS a tool.  Seriously he did take us 2 two AFC Championship games. Ain't been close since.

[Paradis]

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If the Jets draft Josh Allen he will be QB3 they aren't going to throw him into the fire anytime soon. In fact it buys Mac time, which is like his only motivation in life.  The biggest armed player is also the fastest and the tallest.   

As for Darnold and Rosen, the JEts don't play in Southern California. Met Life stadium doesn't have a roof. 

being the QB for a team that's outmanned and plays in crap weather, that's a more relevant college experience than Rosen vs Darnold who can bang the most cheerleaders on the sunniest day. also the last time the jets drafted a So cal dude he created the buttfumble. 

 

so my point is yes in a vacuum Darnold maybe the best QB in the last 10 years I still don't think he or rosen are great fits for this market or this team. They are going to show up and realize football isn't as much fun as they thought it was.  Josh Allen already knows. 

if you're gonna talk about markets and fits - it's Baker x100000000000000000000000000 over Allen. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 hour ago, k-met57 said:

he may not be good, i wont argue that...but he may be good...i dont think you or i or anyone here is qualified to make that judgement. its just a bunch of guys throwing sh*t at the wall, thats what this board is.

But my sh*t smells the best is what I’m trying to say here.

[ljr]

48 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Oh, when it comes to the Pats signing one of our castoffs like LaMont Jordan Jets fans sh*tting their pan.

 

Them's fighting words!

 

✊

[jetstream23]

I'm getting more and more convinced that had we stayed at #6 all 4 QBs would be gone.  We each may not get the guy we want most, but we won't be cockblocked from a QB in Round 1.  I like that we'll AT LEAST have a choice between 2 of these guys.