Air Raid Qbs in the NFL - why are they all bad?

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Philc1 said:

Look in two years when Mayfield is struggling to keep a backup job with the dolphins or bills you can find another undersized trash talking problem child system qb to induct into Canton because you watched a couple YouTube highlight videos

I'll see you in two years then Philc1

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

It could be. There both not something that is constant (in respects to locking on to receivers), but he does need to display anticipatory throws more often at the pro level. 

My points to all this though was to show that he has weaknesses, and I see them as well...and that people crying here dont present this because they're not watching....they're instead playing a popularity contest. This is why I said what I said, it's not like I saying the guy is perfect, but how many times are going to hear about Manziel when the guys are not the same? Or about his height, yet never provide consistent on-field examples of how his height impacts his game. 

This is why I approach some of these convos the way I do. Their position is garbage....it's meaningless. What you just presented is respectable and can be taken seriously. 

I have him rated as the second or third QB I'd take. Rosen is definitely number 1. I see a definitive top 7 QB for most of his career if he can stay on the field. I do not say that lightly - generally I'm too scared to make definitive statements like that. The only other guy I have ever said that about is currently building a HoF resume in GB - which goes to show you that I don't always believe in the whole system/surroundings/conference argument.

Allen is definitely number 4. Currently I'm leaning towards Darnold at 2 just because of the higher ceiling (no pun intended) that he presents - and if I'm taking a QB this high I'd rather go for the boom/bust than the low ceiling-high floor guy. But, we still have a month to go. Lots can change.

[Villain The Foe]

12 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I have him rated as the second or third QB I'd take. Rosen is definitely number 1. I see a definitive top 7 QB for most of his career if he can stay on the field. I do not say that lightly - generally I'm too scared to make definitive statements like that. The only other guy I have ever said that about is currently building a HoF resume in GB - which goes to show you that I don't always believe in the whole system/surroundings/conference argument.

Allen is definitely number 4. Currently I'm leaning towards Darnold at 2 just because of the higher ceiling (no pun intended) that he presents - and if I'm taking a QB this high I'd rather go for the boom/bust than the low ceiling-high floor guy. But, we still have a month to go. Lots can change.

This^^^^^^^^

You have your position, you support it when need be...but there's no crying here. There's no need to discredit every single thing that a particular QB has amassed in his career in order to make your guy seem like the right guy to you.

This is what happens with Mayfield. Just sit back and look at some of the positions from folks who are crying about him. 99% of it has nothing to do with performance on the field, yet they will make conclusions relevant to his performance. 

I've spoken quite a few times about my concerns with Rosen and what his coach and Trent Dilfer had to say about him, however never once has anyone seen me use that as a way to discredit his peformance on the field. The logic or approach with some of the folks here just makes me laugh, then I admittedly begin trolling a bit...because it is easy. But as with you, you seen what I wrote about "no one asking me about his weakness", you asked me the question without extra bullsh*t and you got a straight answer. Im easy to deal with when things are straight forward and meaningful, when folks start with corny comments I start insta-trolling. I'll admit that. lol. 

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Well yeah the tap dancing was easy it involved not ignoring his entire career in the nfl until last December 

Which included passer raters over 100 twice, including his pro-bowl season.

We get it; you have an agenda, and you don't want Baker Mayfield on the team because you are worried he will fail compared to the 'can't miss' options in Darnold or Rosen.

Just say it and own it, but know that you MIGHT be wrong.  Nobody is going to know anything until they have all played 3-5 years. 

[CanadaSteve]

58 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Garcia only had a decent career because he had Terrell Owens to throw to

 

Last I checked we didn’t have a Young TO on the roster 

That really could be said of most any great QB; that they were only as good as the guys they threw to. 

[RESNewYork]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

what matters is, 1) do the coaches know what is the correct system, and 2) how big is the upside?  if you're really good in a particular system, that's great.   i think what people fear most about mayfield isn't that he'll suck, but that his upside is that he'll be serviceable, while guys like allen and rosen become top 10 qbs.  then we really, really lost that trade.

This exactly. We gave up 3 premium picks to move up. I don't want the serviceable good QB. I want the one that has the potential to be a franchise top 5 QB. And that is rare. Does Baker have the highest ceiling? Maybe he has the highest floor but why give up draft capital for that.

[RESNewYork]

12 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I dont care. Im good. Gonna go on about my day now. We're done. 

Wow. Ok. Didn't  think i was being offensive. But maybe this is, your obsession with this kid is borderline creepy. But all good.

[Villain The Foe]

25 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

Wow. Ok. Didn't  think i was being offensive. But maybe this is, your obsession with this kid is borderline creepy. But all good.

?

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

This exactly. We gave up 3 premium picks to move up. I don't want the serviceable good QB. I want the one that has the potential to be a franchise top 5 QB. And that is rare. Does Baker have the highest ceiling? Maybe he has the highest floor but why give up draft capital for that.

If we wanted Mayfield he would have fallen to 6 most likely.

[jetstream23]

 This draft can’t come soon enough! 

[#27TheDominator]

13 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Garcia only had a decent career because he had Terrell Owens to throw to

 

Last I checked we didn’t have a Young TO on the roster 

He did pretty well in Tampa throwing to a 52 year old Joey Galloway. 

[Jetscreen]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:35 AM, Philc1 said:

Besides Tim Couch, Geno Smith, Johnny Manziel and Jared Lorenzen I can’t think of any college air raid qbs who have taken the nfl by storm.

It's easy to see why you might think that. Often those QB's are not to use caution when throwing the ball. It's college and they can get away with being a gunner because the competition is so poor and slow to catch up to the ball.

However, that's not say you can't teach those QB's the right way and have them turn out to be franchise QB's? Everyone else also mentioned it and you're conveniently forgetting those facts. You're not telling the whole story.

[Philc1]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:39 AM, CanadaSteve said:

Which included passer raters over 100 twice, including his pro-bowl season.

We get it; you have an agenda, and you don't want Baker Mayfield on the team because you are worried he will fail compared to the 'can't miss' options in Darnold or Rosen.

Just say it and own it, but know that you MIGHT be wrong.  Nobody is going to know anything until they have all played 3-5 years. 

Right ok so Nick Foles was a top 10 nfl qb prior to Wentz tearing his ACL and just took the backup job because he’s a nice guy

 

 

#revisionisthistory

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, Jetscreen said:

It's easy to see why you might think that. Often those QB's are not to use caution when throwing the ball. It's college and they can get away with being a gunner because the competition is so poor and slow to catch up to the ball.

However, that's not say you can't teach those QB's the right way and have them turn out to be franchise QB's? Everyone else also mentioned it and you're conveniently forgetting those facts. You're not telling the whole story.

The underlying issue here is air raid qbs like Mayfield tend to produce fools gold stats in college

[DetroitRed]

What the others did or didn’t do won’t apply to Mayfield. He is my third choice


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[CanadaSteve]

17 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Right ok so Nick Foles was a top 10 nfl qb prior to Wentz tearing his ACL and just took the backup job because he’s a nice guy

 

 

#revisionisthistory

Again, we get it; you have a viewpoint, and will defend it to your death.  Awesome.

But your viewpoint is not without slight flaws.  You don't want an air-raid QB in Mayfield.  We ALL get it.  That doesn't mean you won't be wrong about him, just like it won't mean you will be right about him. 

[Villain The Foe]

23 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Again, we get it; you have a viewpoint, and will defend it to your death.  Awesome.

But your viewpoint is not without slight flaws.  You don't want an air-raid QB in Mayfield.  We ALL get it.  That doesn't mean you won't be wrong about him, just like it won't mean you will be right about him. 

And to add, just because Foles wasnt viewed as a "top 10 NFL QB prior to Wentz tearing his ACL" his performance surely showed that he's not just some back up QB. Back up QB's at best keep the boat afloat via game management, they typically dont lead the charge, win SB's and have MVP performances while doing so.  

That's the problem with his view point as well. When a person (like Foles) proves that he's more than just a back up via his performance, the fact is either completely missed or dismissed because it doesnt support the agend....I mean narrative. 

The fact that Foles came from a Air Raid and on two occassions  shown that he's more of a top 10 QB than he is just some back up says something. 

[Philc1]

I love it.  Nick Foles the guy who was forced to hold a clipboard and take backup money up until last December is exhibit A as to why Air Raid Qbs are sooooooooooo good in the nfl

 

Geno Smith, Tim Couch, Manziel, Josh Heupel — different era amirite?

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

I love it.  Nick Foles the guy who was forced to hold a clipboard and take backup money up until last December is exhibit A as to why Air Raid Qbs are sooooooooooo good in the nfl

 

Geno Smith, Tim Couch, Manziel, Josh Heupel — different era amirite?

What part of WE GET YOUR AGENDA do you not understand?

 

[Philc1]

3 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

What part of WE GET YOUR AGENDA do you not understand?

 

My agenda is to be good.  Your agenda is to flash Pom poms for Macagnan while we go 5-11 or worse because “the true rebuild” is going to be capped off with trading up for an undersized system qb with attitude issues both on and off the field 

[CanadaSteve]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

My agenda is to be good.  Your agenda is to flash Pom poms for Macagnan while we go 5-11 or worse because “the true rebuild” is going to be capped off with trading up for an undersized system qb with attitude issues both on and off the field 

Yeah, that is EXACTLY what I am doing. 

Apparently you like to cherry-pick people's comments as well.

 

[Philc1]

On 3/29/2018 at 9:24 AM, Villain The Foe said:

I wasn't saying that, but sure, I would consider Baker Mayfield a System QB. I dont think there's anything wrong with that. I think what's wrong is trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. A guy like Kurt Warner was a system QB. Under Dick Vermeil Kurt Warner couldn't be stopped. He goes to NY and he's not such a good fit there. He then goes to the Cards and for the first 2 seasons it was okay, Ken Whisenhunt gets there and its like Kurt Warner is back to his young form. 

Being a system QB isnt a bad thing for as long as you're really good in that system. I think it's bad coaching not to acknowledge that. 

 

Mayfield could be a system QB, time will tell. It's hard to determine because I've only seen him in college playing in this system. But again, it's about aptitude. Is he a natural QB that can naturally absorb different concepts as well as understand what defenses are doing? If the answer to that is yes, then he's not really a system QB....time will have to tell on that one brother. 

So we should trade the 6th pick overall plus three second round picks to find out if a guy who is probably just another college system qb is in fact a system qb

[Villain The Foe]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

So we should trade the 6th pick overall plus three second round picks to find out if a guy who is probably just another college system qb is in fact a system qb

Every QB is judged on their physical ability and their aptitude. Every QB is pretty much a system QB in a general sense. Coaches coach the system they are running. When they evaluate players they look at their skillset and from there figure out if that player has the skillset/ability to run their offense. Running an Air Raid doesn't make you a system QB, it makes you a QB that ran a particular offense. Christian Hackenberg played in a Pro Style offense under Bill Obrien at Penn St. and he surely didn't play in the Air Raid when Obrien left. What happened to Hackenberg? Exactly what everyone saw before he was drafted, an inconsistent passer that regressed every year he was in college. Yet in almost every game he would "flash"....but his performance was what it was. He came into the league and couldnt hack it....pun intended. 

I'll give you two examples...

Josh Allen has a Strong arm, but there's a difference between a "Strong Arm" and a "talented arm". You put Allen on a football field and he can damn near throw the length of it. He has incredible strength, but the dude has zero touch.  That's the difference between a strong arm and a talented arm. Give Allen a crossing route he tends to be inconsistent because he has no touch on his passes and he's inaccurate. Almost every throw is a bullet and that's a problem when a receiver is 5 yards away from the LOS. He also has accuracy issues as stated. Typically the further down field you throw the less accurate you become, but with Allen you can give him 10 short to intermediate routes and tell him to throw those and what you'll get is essentially a bag of tricks in terms of accuracy and touch. What captivates folks about Allen is that every game he'll have that "one throw" that only a guy with his arm can make. The dude is pure hype, yet folks are calling Mayfield a system QB but won't call Allen what he is...which is a tease. He's a QB that some HC/FO will take on as a project with the mindset of "I can develop him". Meanwhile, folks are okay with taking alll of what I just explained with the 3rd pick in the draft. This doesn't mean that he'll bust, but it clearly demonstrates his "boom/bust" label and his limited ability to work in a system that heavily depends on touch accuracy and timing. A coach who's looking for timing and accuracy in the short to mid range area in order to keep the offense on time and moving won't look at Allen because his attributes doesn't fit that system. He doesn't "fit that system". Does that make him a system QB? See where im getting at here?

This isnt Madden, this isnt just data, this isnt just "on paper", you look at the QB's and, look at their skillset and what they've put on tape. You check to see if their performance is something that can work well in your system. Josh Rosen is a typical pocket QB and he's taken the time to polish his throwing motion and mechanics to do damage in the pocket. Putting Josh Rosen in a Carolina Panthers Option system won't work for Josh Rosen because the coach for the Panthers would take one look at Rosen and realise that he doesn't have the athleticism, the durability, the size, the ability to run that system. That isnt Rosens make up. Does that make him a system QB? 

 

Whenever you decide you want to approach this more seriously I have no problem talking to you about it. 

[Philc1]

14 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Every QB is judged on their physical ability and their aptitude. Every QB is pretty much a system QB in a general sense. Coaches coach the system they are running. When they evaluate players they look at their skillset and from there figure out if that player has the skillset/ability to run their offense. Running an Air Raid doesn't make you a system QB, it makes you a QB that ran a particular offense. Christian Hackenberg played in a Pro Style offense under Bill Obrien at Penn St. and he surely didn't play in the Air Raid when Obrien left. What happened to Hackenberg? Exactly what everyone saw before he was drafted, an inconsistent passer that regressed every year he was in college. Yet in almost every game he would "flash"....but his performance was what it was. He came into the league and couldnt hack it....pun intended. 

I'll give you two examples...

Josh Allen has a Strong arm, but there's a difference between a "Strong Arm" and a "talented arm". You put Allen on a football field and he can damn near throw the length of it. He has incredible strength, but the dude has zero touch.  That's the difference between a strong arm and a talented arm. Give Allen a crossing route he tends to be inconsistent because he has no touch on his passes and he's inaccurate. Almost every throw is a bullet and that's a problem when a receiver is 5 yards away from the LOS. He also has accuracy issues as stated. Typically the further down field you throw the less accurate you become, but with Allen you can give him 10 short to intermediate routes and tell him to throw those and what you'll get is essentially a bag of tricks in terms of accuracy and touch. What captivates folks about Allen is that every game he'll have that "one throw" that only a guy with his arm can make. The dude is pure hype, yet folks are calling Mayfield a system QB but won't call Allen what he is...which is a tease. He's a QB that some HC/FO will take on as a project with the mindset of "I can develop him". Meanwhile, folks are okay with taking alll of what I just explained with the 3rd pick in the draft. This doesn't mean that he'll bust, but it clearly demonstrates his "boom/bust" label and his limited ability to work in a system that heavily depends on touch accuracy and timing. A coach who's looking for timing and accuracy in the short to mid range area in order to keep the offense on time and moving won't look at Allen because his attributes doesn't fit that system. He doesn't "fit that system". Does that make him a system QB? See where im getting at here?

This isnt Madden, this isnt just data, this isnt just "on paper", you look at the QB's and, look at their skillset and what they've put on tape. You check to see if their performance is something that can work well in your system. Josh Rosen is a typical pocket QB and he's taken the time to polish his throwing motion and mechanics to do damage in the pocket. Putting Josh Rosen in a Carolina Panthers Option system won't work for Josh Rosen because the coach for the Panthers would take one look at Rosen and realise that he doesn't have the athleticism, the durability, the size, the ability to run that system. That isnt Rosens make up. Does that make him a system QB? 

 

Whenever you decide you want to approach this more seriously I have no problem talking to you about it. 

And that issue with Allen of throwing had to receivers running slant and drag routes is actually correctable he can simply not throw as hard.  Other qbs have had that problem and fixed it while in the nfl (Favre, Bledsoe)

 

Btw your boy Mayfield likes to throw hard to the slant route too.  

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

And that issue with Allen of throwing had to receivers running slant and drag routes is actually correctable he can simply not throw as hard.  Other qbs have had that problem and fixed it while in the nfl (Favre, Bledsoe)

 

Btw your boy Mayfield likes to throw hard to the slant route too.  

That was only half of Allen's issue. I stated rarely display's touch and he's consistently inaccurate no matter the level he's throwing. Sure, Mayfield may also throw the ball hard at guys on slant routes too, but no one is doubting his touch and his ability to throw a catchable ball that is accurate. Just because Mayfield has done it doesnt mean that he consistently does it because he has no touch. Mayfield may do it but he completes 70% of his passes. And lets not blame this on the Cowboy receivers, Allen's "Target drop pass percentage" was 4.8% while Mayfield's was 8%. Im not saying this because Mayfield is "my boy", these are simply the facts of the matter. 

Favre broke fingers, but he was accurate. He was in the league for 20 years yet had only 5 years where he threw under 60%, of those 5 years 3 of those years were a 59.9%, 59.3% and 58.3%. He threw bullets, and really didnt have touch but he threw accurate passes that atleast made those passes catchable. I cant tell you how he was view entering the league in terms of being a boom bust project that had enormous throwing power but had little touch or accuracy. So I cant sit here and speak on any Favre issues being fixed. 

Drew Bledsoe wasnt a great QB, he was okay as a starter and he threw almost as many INT's as TD's. And again, I dont remember if Drew had the same issues that we see with Allen today, but with that said if Allen had a Bledsoe career I would say that Allen's 56% comp rate in college would be spot on and that as an overall player he wasnt worth the 3rd pick in the draft. Bledsoe was an ok player. Better than anything the Jets have had during his time with NE, but nothing to brag about when using the 3rd pick in the draft. 

I wouldnt mind taking a guy who throws hard slants but will complete his passes at a high clip, rarely turns the ball over, completes passes on 3rd and long at a high clip, is mobile and is elusive in the pocket yet is still a pass first QB when dealing with pressure. He wont throw the football 80 yards all air, but throwing it 55 all air is good enough in the NFL. 

Again, I want to make it crystal clear that Im not calling Allen a bust, but im certainly calling the man overhyped. If Bill Polian is going to call out Lamar Jackson for his athletic abilities and tell him to consider making a position change, possibly to WR, he should have done the same thing for Josh Allen and told him to possibly consider changing to a TE, because if his touch and accuracy doesnt change that will pretty much be his option. 

[Philc1]

On 3/30/2018 at 5:51 PM, DetroitRed said:

What the others did or didn’t do won’t apply to Mayfield. He is my third choice


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How does it not apply?

[Claymation]

23 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Every QB is judged on their physical ability and their aptitude. Every QB is pretty much a system QB in a general sense. Coaches coach the system they are running. When they evaluate players they look at their skillset and from there figure out if that player has the skillset/ability to run their offense. Running an Air Raid doesn't make you a system QB, it makes you a QB that ran a particular offense. Christian Hackenberg played in a Pro Style offense under Bill Obrien at Penn St. and he surely didn't play in the Air Raid when Obrien left. What happened to Hackenberg? Exactly what everyone saw before he was drafted, an inconsistent passer that regressed every year he was in college. Yet in almost every game he would "flash"....but his performance was what it was. He came into the league and couldnt hack it....pun intended. 

I'll give you two examples...

Josh Allen has a Strong arm, but there's a difference between a "Strong Arm" and a "talented arm". You put Allen on a football field and he can damn near throw the length of it. He has incredible strength, but the dude has zero touch.  That's the difference between a strong arm and a talented arm. Give Allen a crossing route he tends to be inconsistent because he has no touch on his passes and he's inaccurate. Almost every throw is a bullet and that's a problem when a receiver is 5 yards away from the LOS. He also has accuracy issues as stated. Typically the further down field you throw the less accurate you become, but with Allen you can give him 10 short to intermediate routes and tell him to throw those and what you'll get is essentially a bag of tricks in terms of accuracy and touch. What captivates folks about Allen is that every game he'll have that "one throw" that only a guy with his arm can make. The dude is pure hype, yet folks are calling Mayfield a system QB but won't call Allen what he is...which is a tease. He's a QB that some HC/FO will take on as a project with the mindset of "I can develop him". Meanwhile, folks are okay with taking alll of what I just explained with the 3rd pick in the draft. This doesn't mean that he'll bust, but it clearly demonstrates his "boom/bust" label and his limited ability to work in a system that heavily depends on touch accuracy and timing. A coach who's looking for timing and accuracy in the short to mid range area in order to keep the offense on time and moving won't look at Allen because his attributes doesn't fit that system. He doesn't "fit that system". Does that make him a system QB? See where im getting at here?

This isnt Madden, this isnt just data, this isnt just "on paper", you look at the QB's and, look at their skillset and what they've put on tape. You check to see if their performance is something that can work well in your system. Josh Rosen is a typical pocket QB and he's taken the time to polish his throwing motion and mechanics to do damage in the pocket. Putting Josh Rosen in a Carolina Panthers Option system won't work for Josh Rosen because the coach for the Panthers would take one look at Rosen and realise that he doesn't have the athleticism, the durability, the size, the ability to run that system. That isnt Rosens make up. Does that make him a system QB? 

 

Whenever you decide you want to approach this more seriously I have no problem talking to you about it. 

 

 

That looks like touch to me.

[Villain The Foe]

32 minutes ago, Claymation said:

 

 

That looks like touch to me.

Then ignore his years of performances at Wyoming in order to settle for a play or two at the senior bowl. Makes no difference to me...unless the Jets draft him.

[Bruce Harper]

For the people trying to use Nick Foles’ one good month in the nfl as the big card to show that air raid qbs might actually be good in the nfl— The Eagles incorporated a lot of gimmicky air raid concepts into their offense if you watched the Super Bowl.  Bates and the Jets run a version of WCO which is totally opposite from air raid

In addition to his superbowl MVP he also had an excellent full season earlier in his career but don’t let that get in the way of your hypothesis.


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[Bruce Harper]

Geno did not run the same offense as Mayfield. 

That’s not going to stop him from saying that. And anyone could have gone 27/2 and lights out in the superbowl because the Pats were so bad.


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[Bruce Harper]

My bad because it was in conference he had to sit out did not know that stipulation, but here is why he initially didn’t get a scholarship, it clearly reads OU planed on giving him one but Tech was ******* with him, and them.

Mayfield transferred to Oklahoma. That got ugly.

There are two relevant rules to know here. One is the NCAA’s, and one is the Big 12’s. The NCAA’s says that players who transfer, if they haven’t already graduated, must sit out a year before returning to game action. That “academic year in residence” is a redshirt season, so players get an extra season tacked on at the end of their careers.

But the Big 12 has a rule that if players transfer within the conference, they lose that year of eligibility, in addition to having to sit out the season. That loss of eligibility could be waived by the player’s former school, but Tech denied Mayfield’s request to do that — and also, for a while, to let Oklahoma put Mayfield on scholarship.

So OU wasn’t allowed to put him on Scholarship, but once they could the following year they did, and always planned to.

So then I guess he wan’t that good?


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[Bruce Harper]

Lol he still is a 1 time walk on, and was tossed away like trash.

If you say so.


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[Bruce Harper]

If we wanted Mayfield he would have fallen to 6 most likely.

At least you are consistent, if not correct. This would not have happened.


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[Philc1]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

At least you are consistent, if not correct. This would not have happened.


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See you in about 23 days!

[Sonny Werblin]

16 hours ago, Claymation said:

 

 

That looks like touch to me.

And I once threw a perfect forkball, but it doesn't mean I can pitch in major league baseball. Show me the mash up of ALL of his touch throws (it shouldn't take long to compile), then put together all of his throws where he held the ball too long because he refused to throw the ball until he "saw" his receiver open (that's gonna take awhile). He's a very nice kid with a boat load of arm strength and athletic ability. What he lacks is the "skill" of anticipation. He is unable to see something before it happens. You can not teach that, it is a God given ability (just like his arm strength and size). I've read, on more than one occasion, about Joe Namath's insane ability to see things on the field before they happened. One guy said he played pool with Namath and that Namath saw shots on the table that no one else did because he seemed to be able to see how all of the balls would interact with each other by just envisioning it. Since reading that, I've been an advocate of GM's taking college QBs out to play a game of 8 ball. It could very well be as useful and insightful as viewing hours of game video.