Allen discusses his inaccuracy.

[Sonny Werblin]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Hack once being a top prospect is actually a prime example of why Allen is different.  The fact that Allen is still a top prospect while Hack wasn't says a lot about his potential.

Not all tall QB's are the same - just because the Jets over drafted Hack doesn't make him a similar QB to Allen.  No matter how hard you all try to make it so.

The hack example was not meant to equate them. It was meant as an example of things changing. Hack was projected by many as the first overall pick BEFORE his last season at PSU. He went from top prospect to middle round project (to everyone except Mac). Allen didn't fall as far. IMO, he went from possible first overall pick to middle to late first round QB with a very high ceiling and high bust potential. 

IMO he is the least safe pick of the top 6 QBs, but he could be the best of them. His value depends on your view of "could". I personally, after watching him play all season, do not like his chances. I think the NFL will prove to be too fast for him. He's just not a good decision maker.

[FTL Jet Fan]

I will support whoever we draft. If we do draft Allen, like Pat Kirwan said he would sit him a year. I don't know about a sitting him for a full season. I think he would have to be brought along slowly like the Dolphins did with Tannehill. They started him off with short easy throws, slants screens, etc, with the occasional deep ball or a 25 yard out. Tannehill also had problems throwing to his left and is not the most accurate throwing deep, he is great throwing from 0-15 yards and letting his receivers do the rest. That scares me about Allen, taking a QB at 3 I would like to not have to worry about footwork,  accuracy issues, and problems throwing the left side of the field. I  have no idea how any of these guys will turn in the pros, I just hope we make the right pick.

[Bruce Harper]

7 hours ago, legler82 said:

 

Sounds very similar to what he was saying about Hack when he was working with him.

[Bruce Harper]

18 hours ago, Untouchable said:

People really underestimate just how sh*tty of a supporting cast he had last season.

Just look at the Potato Bowl against Central Michigan. His receivers are completely blanketed on damn near every pass attempt. Can’t even get an inch of separation against Chippewa DB’s.

There’s no denying that he’s a risk...but so is Mayfield. So is Rosen. So is Darnold.

Difference is, if every last one of these guys were to reach the peak of their potential, Allen would laugh down from his mountain at their asses, Crom-style.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath.  

[Bruce Harper]

17 hours ago, Philc1 said:

If we stayed at 6 Mac would have drafted the same exact player he just traded 3 2nds and a 1st for, Shorty Mayfield 

No matter how many times you say this it won't be true.  And you must be really tall to call a 6'1" guy "shorty" and a "hobbit."

[#27TheDominator]

4 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I also find it telling that those who defend Rosen or Mayfield do it with performance on the field, yet defenders of Allen talk about his physical traits...blame everything on his targets, excuse his inaccuracy away and will only use his senior bowl highlights...a game where he took a couple series and called it a day.

 

 

Kind of a ridiculous statement.  Mayfield had great stats.  Why wouldn't people talk about his performance?  It is nice, but not the be-all-end-all.  Manziel and Graham Harrell had great stats too.  I remember when people ranted about how Graham Harrell was undrafted and was a better prospect than one year wonder Mark Sanchez.  I heard some of this sh*t in 2012 when we signed him, but luckily there was too much Matt Simms love around for it to catch on during the week he was here before we signed Flynn or Quinn or some other never was to replace him.

People defend Mayfield and Rosen with on-field stuff cause they are good on the field, but they seem like a pair of douchebags.  People defend Allen on the field because his stats sucked, but there are plenty of reasons to think he can play.  Despite his accuracy issues I think he can be an early starter.  He has they physical tools to be a Flacco or Roethlisberger type and any decent offensive coach should be salivating at the chance to use him and tailor and offense around his skills.  Like it or not, players get drafted based on physical skills, not college production. As many college superstars fail as workout warriors. 

I have kind of been talked into Mayfield and talked out of Allen, but I think I will get behind whoever they take.  Any of these guys can work out.  I want the staff to have conviction, get their guy and stand behind him.  I have little faith they will be right, but this is their chance.  We have given them enough rope.  They either succeed or hang themselves.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

No matter how many times you say this it won't be true.  And you must be really tall to call a 6'1" guy "shorty" and a "hobbit."

He's not 6'1"  You rounding up? I am 5'9" and I could post him up easy and my hands are  bigger.  My Dad is 5'10" and his hands are a full inch larger.

[Bruce Harper]

17 hours ago, Untouchable said:

I wouldn’t be that pessimistic about the odds.

And frankly, I haven’t been waiting over 40 years for this moment just to favor the Jets going with the “safe” pick and take the guy whose upside is a “good” or “solid” starter.

Go big or go home

If Allen pans out, he could literally end up having a HOF type career.

If he busts...well...then we’re in the same position that we’ve basically always been in. 

 

Allen will be an absolute disaster at 3.  He has never played all that well in college.  Why do we think he's going to be good all of a sudden?  Because he worked with Jordan Palmer?  So did Hackenberg.  I might risk it in the 4th round but you don't draft a project at 3.  

[Bruce Harper]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

He's not 6'1"  You rounding up? I am 5'9" and I could post him up easy and my hands are  bigger.  My Dad is 5'10" and his hands are a full inch larger.

By 3/8th of an inch, yes.   And with your big hands I'm sure you would have been an all world college QB too.  I just don't understand the hate for this guy.

[Bruce Harper]

13 hours ago, Gangrene said:

Matthew Stafford, 57.1% college completion rate. 133 passer rating.

Josh Allen, 56.2% college completion rate, 137 passer rating.

Stats tell part of the story, but let's not pretend you can judge an NFL career pased solely on completion percentage. If it was that easy there would be no need for scouts.

 

 

Agreed, except that out of all the stats it has proven to be the most reliable indicator.

[legler82]

3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

So we're going to act as if this video talked about Josh Allen being a top QB in college??? The conversation in the video you provided talked about his journey to Wyoming, it stated nothing about his "traits" and and how it makes him a top 5 pick and all of the nonsense we hear today. 

 

Why so many actors? Do I look like an actor (got up to look myself in the mirror)? Last time I checked, 1st round traits include anticipation, accuracy, ball placement, production etc. How the heck does Mayfield NOT fit that bill? WHY YOU ACTING like Mayfield hasn't put up production traits that teams look for in 1st round talent just so you can act like physical traits are the only traits that teams in the first round look for? Furthermore, if it was solely about these physical traits (given that Allen doesn't show performance traits consistently) then why isnt Mike White in this conversation as a top player? He's 6'4, has a powerful arm and had a better career than Allen. He's the same height as Allen and is taller than all of the top QB's? It makes no sense. 

You can criticize the Gimmick that is the spread option, but I'll leave you with this....directly from the mouth of Drew Brees regarding the spread...a system that he played in by the way.  

If Mayfield didn't fit the bill, he wouldn't be mocked in the top 5 consistently. Why you acting bro?

Allen may also be mocked, but it has nothing to do with his performance but his physical traits...which makes him an immediate boom/bust candidate. 

Have the last word my friend. As long as the Jets dont draft him, then I dont really give a rats behind about Allen. 

This is so silly.  People act as though Brees's success was based on his measurable, talent and college production.  Those just got him drafted in the 2nd round and ousted out of San Diego.  Sean Payton's offense and his borderline psychotic work ethic is what made him into a future 1st ballot HOFer.  Jay Glazer on the Rich Eisen show recently told a story of how he was going out late with Sean Payton somewhere.  They had to make a not so quick detour back to the stadium or practice facility because Payton had forgot something.  The building was completely empty except for Brees studying and working out.  When Jay asked Brees why are you here by yourself, Bress responded "sometimes being great is lonely".  The combination of talent, measurables, potential and on a smaller scale college production determines your draft position.  Like it or not Allen is simply more talented, has better measurables and potential than Mayfield; blame it on God and genetics.  The only thing Mayfield has over him is production which doesn't hold as much weight in the draft.  So Allen most likely will and should be drafted ahead of Mayfield.  Their careers beyond that will be predicated on coaching, scheme fit and work ethic.  No one knows for sure at this point if Mayfield is a harder worker than Allen.  Time will tell.

[Philc1]

14 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

No matter how many times you say this it won't be true.  And you must be really tall to call a 6'1" guy "shorty" and a "hobbit."

You called Mayfield 6’1 lol

[dbatesman]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

People defend Allen on the field because his stats sucked, but there are plenty of reasons to think he can play.  Despite his accuracy issues I think he can be an early starter.  He has they physical tools to be a Flacco or Roethlisberger type and any decent offensive coach should be salivating at the chance to use him and tailor and offense around his skills.  Like it or not, players get drafted based on physical skills, not college production. As many college superstars fail as workout warriors. 

Players get drafted for tons of reasons, and most of those reasons are stupid. It’s entirely possible Allen turns into a successful pro in the same way that it’s entirely possible I’ll win the Powerball.

[Philc1]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

He's not 6'1"  You rounding up? I am 5'9" and I could post him up easy and my hands are  bigger.  My Dad is 5'10" and his hands are a full inch larger.

Before the week is over Baker Mayfield will be 6’5, not an alcoholic problem kid and have extensive experience under center

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

By 3/8th of an inch, yes.   And with your big hands I'm sure you would have been an all world college QB too.  I just don't understand the hate for this guy.

This is typical of the bitch fest around here.  Where did I say that I hate him?  I don't and I will be okay with him as the pick, but don't act like there shouldn't be concerns.  There is something wrong with all of these guys, except maybe Barkley and I sure as hell don't want him.  

Also, you have no idea about me or my playing history, but I can throw a ******* football if you are wondering. 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Players get drafted for tons of reasons, and most of those reasons are stupid. It’s entirely possible Allen turns into a successful pro in the same way that it’s entirely possible I’ll win the Powerball.

It is a delicate balance.  I don't want to pick sh*theads to be coached up.  On the other hand, I don't want coaches that don't think they can coach up a guy with an arm like that. Seems obvious that these guys can't anyway, whether they think they can or not.

[legler82]

26 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Sounds very similar to what he was saying about Hack when he was working with him.

Except he was the ONLY person saying it when it came to Hack.

[Bruce Harper]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

This is typical of the bitch fest around here.  Where did I say that I hate him?  I don't and I will be okay with him as the pick, but don't act like there shouldn't be concerns.  There is something wrong with all of these guys, except maybe Barkley and I sure as hell don't want him.  

Also, you have no idea about me or my playing history, but I can throw a ******* football if you are wondering. 

I shouldn't have made assumptions about your athleticism.  I just think that people seem to attack his size because it is pretty tough to attack his play.  The guy is a baller.  And I think he will be in the pros, whether for the Jets or someone else.  And 6' and 5/8" is not exactly Doug Flutie.  Everybody seems to be acting like it is.   On the other side of things, I'm 6'4" 230, but that doesn't mean I would be a good NFL QB.

[Bruce Harper]

13 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

You called Mayfield 6’1 lol

Did you want me to round down by 5/8ths?  Rounding up 3/8ths of an inch gives you an lol?    You usually don't display such a cheery disposition.  In fact, just the opposite.  

[Untouchable]

18 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

By 3/8th of an inch, yes.   And with your big hands I'm sure you would have been an all world college QB too.  I just don't understand the hate for this guy.

What hate?

There are legitimate concerns with the guy just like there are legitimate concerns with Allen.

What’s amusing to me is most don’t want dick to do with Allen because of a subpar completion percentage...but Mayfield? Oh, never mind the fact that he’s under 6’1. Never mind the fact that he was caught on tape drunkenly running from the police. Never mind the fact that he was caught grabbing his dick and shouting “f*ck you” at the Kansas sideline. Never mind the fact that he was caught throwing a football at a group of TCU players. Nevermind the fact that he comes from a simplistic air raid spread offense that has a sh*tastic track record of producing quality pro QB’s. Never mind the fact that he would be the first sub-6’1 QB drafted in the Top 5 in the modern Super Bowl era...he’s got that fire guys!!! Moxy in spades, baby!!

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, Bruce Harper said:

Did you want me to round down by 5/8ths?  Rounding up 3/8ths of an inch gives you an lol?    You usually don't display such a cheery disposition.  In fact, just the opposite.  All the miserable complaining must be exhausting.  I know it is for us.

So when are you going to start telling us Mayfield also has experience doing 3,5, and 7 step drops in the pro style system he played in?

[Philc1]

4 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

What hate?

There are legitimate concerns with the guy just like there are legitimate concerns with Allen.

What’s amusing to me is most don’t want dick to do with Allen because of a subpar completion percentage...but Mayfield? Oh, never mind the fact that he’s under 6’1. Never mind the fact that he was caught on tape drunkenly running from the police. Never mind the fact that he was caught grabbing his dick and shouting “f*ck you” at the Kansas sideline. Never mind the fact that he was caught throwing a football at a group of TCU players. Nevermind the fact that he comes from an air raid spread offense that has a sh*tastic track record of producing quality pro QB’s. Never mind the fact that he would be the first sub-6’1 QB drafted in the Top 5 in the modern Super Bowl era...he’s got that fire guys!!! Moxy in spades, baby!!

Delusional jets fans want to nitpick and beat up every qb in the draft except the guy with Juan Manziel written all over him 

[legler82]

1 minute ago, Untouchable said:

What hate?

There are legitimate concerns with the guy just like there are legitimate concerns with Allen.

What’s amusing to me is most don’t want dick to do with Allen because of a subpar completion percentage...but Mayfield? Oh, never mind the fact that he’s under 6’1. Never mind the fact that he was caught on tape drunkenly running from the police. Never mind the fact that he was caught grabbing his dick and shouting “f*ck you” at the Kansas sideline. Never mind the fact that he was caught throwing a football at a group of TCU players. Nevermind the fact that he comes from an air raid spread offense that has a sh*tastic track record of producing quality pro QB’s. Never mind the fact that he would be the first sub-6’1 QB drafted in the Top 5 in the modern Super Bowl era...he’s got that fire guys!!! Moxy in spades, baby!!

...Nevermind the fact he admitted to not putting a lot of effort in studying a teams playbook prior to a meeting because he felt he would be long gone by the time they picked. 

[Bruce Harper]

Just now, Philc1 said:

So when are you going to start telling us Mayfield also has experience doing 3,5, and 7 step drops in the pro style system he played in?

Why would I say that?  I'm not saying the guy is perfect.  If he was he wouldn't be available at 3.  All I am saying is that I would rather we draft him at 3 than Allen, who looks to me like a project.

[Philc1]

Just now, Bruce Harper said:

Why would I say that?  I'm not saying the guy is perfect.  If he was he wouldn't be available at 3.  All I am saying is that I would rather we draft him at 3 than Allen, who looks to me like a project.

I’d rather go project than Manziel 2.0

[Bruce Harper]

Just now, Philc1 said:

I’d rather go project than Manziel 2.0

I don't see the similarity but I guess we'll find out.

[Philc1]

7 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

What hate?

There are legitimate concerns with the guy just like there are legitimate concerns with Allen.

What’s amusing to me is most don’t want dick to do with Allen because of a subpar completion percentage...but Mayfield? Oh, never mind the fact that he’s under 6’1. Never mind the fact that he was caught on tape drunkenly running from the police. Never mind the fact that he was caught grabbing his dick and shouting “f*ck you” at the Kansas sideline. Never mind the fact that he was caught throwing a football at a group of TCU players. Nevermind the fact that he comes from a simplistic air raid spread offense that has a sh*tastic track record of producing quality pro QB’s. Never mind the fact that he would be the first sub-6’1 QB drafted in the Top 5 in the modern Super Bowl era...he’s got that fire guys!!! Moxy in spades, baby!!

All those air raid and big 12 qbs have dominated the nfl dude

[FidelioJet]

35 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The hack example was not meant to equate them. It was meant as an example of things changing. Hack was projected by many as the first overall pick BEFORE his last season at PSU. He went from top prospect to middle round project (to everyone except Mac). Allen didn't fall as far. IMO, he went from possible first overall pick to middle to late first round QB with a very high ceiling and high bust potential. 

IMO he is the least safe pick of the top 6 QBs, but he could be the best of them. His value depends on your view of "could". I personally, after watching him play all season, do not like his chances. I think the NFL will prove to be too fast for him. He's just not a good decision maker.

I agree that he's a huge risk - not going in with blinders here. (Jackson is much, much more of a risk though) 

I guess we watch his fill and are seeing very different things.  I see a guy whose skill-set translate incredibly well to the NFL game.  

Very athletic, can throw on the run and has the arm strength and accuracy to fit the ball into very tight windows.  He's not nearly as innacurate as many make him out to be (comp% is not a good metric to define accuracy - way too many variables)  I believe learning touch is something he can fix - soften the ball on swing or deeper passes.

My biggest concern with him (and it's a big one) is can the game slow down for him?  He def. seems to panic a lot more than he should and does seem to get happy feet.  Will the game slow down for him?  That's the risk - but, for me, it's one worth taking.

IMO if he can find comfort in the pocket he will be a guy that will make us perennial SuperBowl contenders.  

[Untouchable]

9 minutes ago, legler82 said:

...Nevermind the fact he admitted to not putting a lot of effort in studying a teams playbook prior to a meeting because he felt he would be long gone by the time they picked. 

Nevermind the fact that none of these Mayfield diehards were even mentioning him as an alternative back in December when it looked like we were out of the Darnold/Rosen sweepstakes.

Seriously, these same people were talking up the likes of Luke Falk and Jarret Stidham while not saying boo about Mayfield just 3 months ago.

They weren’t even talking about him as a possibility in the 2nd round but now they want to take him in the Top 3. Many even now favoring him over Darnold/Rosen.

What a hootenanny 

[#27TheDominator]

18 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

I shouldn't have made assumptions about your athleticism.  I just think that people seem to attack his size because it is pretty tough to attack his play.  The guy is a baller.  And I think he will be in the pros, whether for the Jets or someone else.  And 6' and 5/8" is not exactly Doug Flutie.  Everybody seems to be acting like it is.   On the other side of things, I'm 6'4" 230, but that doesn't mean I would be a good NFL QB.

You can make all the assumptions about my athleticism you want.  I can guarantee you that I would be talking trash the moment we stepped on the field. Why shouldn't you?

[Philc1]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree that he's a huge risk - not going in with blinders here. (Jackson is much, much more of a risk though) 

I guess we watch his fill and are seeing very different things.  I see a guy whose skill-set translate incredibly well to the NFL game.  

Very athletic, can throw on the run and has the arm strength and accuracy to fit the ball into very tight windows.  He's not nearly as innacurate as many make him out to be (comp% is not a good metric to define accuracy - way too many variables)  I believe learning touch is something he can fix - soften the ball on swing or deeper passes.

My biggest concern with him (and it's a big one) is can the game slow down for him?  He def. seems to panic a lot more than he should and does seem to get happy feet.  Will the game slow down for him?  That's the risk - but, for me, it's one worth taking.

IMO if he can find comfort in the pocket he will be a guy that will make us perennial SuperBowl contenders.  

He won’t.  Mayfield will be forced to run a lot of bootlegs to compensate for the fact that he can’t function under center in a traditional pocket 

[mrcoops]

College QBs play in gimmcky schemes.  It is what it is.

Mariota played in a gimmcky system and went, what, #2 overall?  That was a projection selection, based on his talent.

Trubisky took about 95% of his snaps from the shotgun, and isn't much taller than Mayfield. Went #2 overall. Projection selection.

Mayfield?  Same thing. Great production, best of the bunch, questions over scheme. But he has the talent to go very high, and to play very well in the NFL.

[FidelioJet]

6 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

He won’t.  Mayfield will be forced to run a lot of bootlegs to compensate for the fact that he can’t function under center in a traditional pocket 

I was talking about Allen - but completely agree about Mayfield though!

[JoJoTownsell1]

12 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

He won’t.  Mayfield will be forced to run a lot of bootlegs to compensate for the fact that he can’t function under center in a traditional pocket 

Agreed. That doesn't mean he won't be a great QB. Brees has had success in the pocket and Wilson has had to roll out. I think Baker can do both and is the kind of kid that will do whatever it takes to make the play. That's not a bad thing. 

Would I rather take a pure pocket passer like Darnold/Rosen/Allen? Probably, but I don't think Mayfield is anything close to Manziel, on or off the field. Comparing Mayfield to Manziel is as dumb as comparing Allen to Hackenberg. 

[Untouchable]

20 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

I don't see the similarity but I guess we'll find out.

Mayfield is a more polished passer than Manziel...but otherwise, there are plenty of similarities.

Both are under 6’1. Both come equipped with maturity concerns both on and off the field. Both hail from the same air raid offense. Both are Heisman winners. Both were lauded for their “moxy” and “passion” on the field. 

Hell, Joel Klatt, a mega-Mayfield supporter even admits that Mayfield’s floor is similar to what Manziel amounted to in the pros.