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Just let me say that watching Lebron in these playoffs is sad, not because he’s out there by himself, but because he’s solely responsible for the bums he’s playing with that left him by himself. He picked Kevin Love and JR Smith, and those two are absolute trash. This reminds me of when Jason Kidd steamrolled Byron Scott and picked up all his loser-ass buddies to come play with him on the Nets so you ended up with dudes like Rodney Rogers and Devin Harris stealing paychecks and minutes. 

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2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Just let me say that watching Lebron in these playoffs is sad, not because he’s out there by himself, but because he’s solely responsible for the bums he’s playing with that left him by himself. He picked Kevin Love and JR Smith, and those two are absolute trash. This reminds me of when Jason Kidd steamrolled Byron Scott and picked up all his loser-ass buddies to come play with him on the Nets so you ended up with dudes like Rodney Rogers and Devin Harris stealing paychecks and minutes. 

Kerry Kittles was good! 

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NBA basket ball is garbage.  Nothing but travels, charges  and backing up with your ass into the defenders face and lebron is as big of an offender as anyone.

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10 hours ago, HessStation said:

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The Lebron-Michael stuff is pretty funny.  Lebron lost his chance to ever catch Michael when he started the super team trend.  can you imagine Michael saying to himself "I can't do it here, I need to join other top players to win"?

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

The Lebron-Michael stuff is pretty funny.  Lebron lost his chance to ever catch Michael when he started the super team trend.  can you imagine Michael saying to himself "I can't do it here, I need to join other top players to win"?

Jordan played on GREAT teams in Chicago. Besides Pippen who himself is probably top 20 all time he had Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Kukoc,  Ron Harper was incredibly underrated as a defender

 

The year Jordan retired in 1994 they won 55 games without him

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On 5/17/2018 at 9:51 PM, Beerfish said:

NBA basket ball is garbage.  Nothing but travels, charges  and backing up with your ass into the defenders face and lebron is as big of an offender as anyone.

Most players in today’s nba are too soft to guard Lebron 

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3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Jordan played on GREAT teams in Chicago. Besides Pippen who himself is probably top 20 all time he had Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Kukoc,  Ron Harper was incredibly underrated as a defender

 

The year Jordan retired in 1994 they won 55 games without him

What did those guys do without him? Outside of rodman who won early and Jordan won 3 without him.  

Miami won 47 the year before LeBron went there.

LeBron would have won in Cleveland the first time but he wanted to take the easy way out. Michael never would have done that.

 

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4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

What did those guys do without him? Outside of rodman who won early and Jordan won 3 without him. 

Quite a bit, actually. Grant, Kerr, and Harper won championships after him. Bill Cartwright was an AS long before he went to the Bulls, and Pippen was literally a MVP candidate in Jordan's absence. The list goes on.

It's stupid anyways. The revisionist and romanticized history about Jordan is beyond saving at this point. Rodman and Pippen were, by far, better players than anyone Lebron has ever had next to him, and that's including Wade. The problem, however, is that's all Lebron's fault, so who knows.

End of the day, I think Pippen got it right this week. They are both completely different players in completely different eras, and while comparing the two is fun it's probably impossible to come up with any sort of definitive answer.

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And I'll tell you an even better one, Larry Bird and Magic. As if the dudes didn't play with rosters loaded with Hall of Famers and literally the greatest coaches of all time. But no, can't mention that. Because grit and smiles and showtime and lunchpails and they were so cute with each other.

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I remember Celtics fans saying this about Jordan in 1990. 

During Lebron's first run with Miami, when he was flopping all over the place, there were multiple people both on this board and in the media reminiscing about the good ol' days. I distinctly remember posters on this board crying that the Bad Boy Pistons would be ashamed of such ****ery. And they were serious about that. They legit remembered Dennis Rodman and Bill Lambeer as gritty veterans who would have never regularly engaged in such tactics.

The human memory is a fickle, fickle woman.

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11 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Lebron lost his chance to ever catch Michael when he started the super team trend.

Yes. LeBron being a better executive than Jordan definitely somehow means he's a worse player. Bitching about the decision is the least secret code since pig latin. Nobody bitches when superteams are assembled by middle-aged white men and nobody bitches when teams assembled by LeBron are sh*tty.

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14 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Quite a bit, actually. Grant, Kerr, and Harper won championships after him. Bill Cartwright was an AS long before he went to the Bulls, and Pippen was literally a MVP candidate in Jordan's absence. The list goes on.

It's stupid anyways. The revisionist and romanticized history about Jordan is beyond saving at this point. Rodman and Pippen were, by far, better players than anyone Lebron has ever had next to him, and that's including Wade. The problem, however, is that's all Lebron's fault, so who knows.

End of the day, I think Pippen got it right this week. They are both completely different players in completely different eras, and while comparing the two is fun it's probably impossible to come up with any sort of definitive answer.

Horace Grant and Ron Harper  weren't keys to championships, they were role players late in their careers w/ LA.

Steve Kerr was nothing more than a role player, he started 29 games his entire career.

The only truly great player was Pippen and Pippen was still not old when Michael retired. he first went to Houston w/ Barkely and Hakeem and couldn't win the went to Portland where they were LOADED w/ talent and had a HUGE lead in game 7 against the Lakers in 2000 and couldn't win.

 

Jordan led 2 dynasties, one pre Rodman and one w/ Rodman.  Last I checked outside of very early in his career when he was a bench player he didn't win anything either.  couldn't win w/ David Robinson and SA, couldn't win w/ LA and LA would become a dynasty after letting him go.

In his 3 years w/ Michael he never made an AS game, made all NBA 1st team D year 1 and never earned any other honors.

Dwyane Wade was a different player than Pippen but in his prime a better player, Bosh was a better version of Rodman as he could actually score.

 

1991 Bulls starting lineup:

John paxon- average player, never made an ASG

Bill Cartwright- average player, never made an ASG

Horace Grant- nice role player. made ONE ASG in career, the yr w/o Jordan in Chi.

Scottie Pippen- developing into great player

In 1993 BJ Armstrong took over for Paxon in the starting lineup- another average player. he did make 1 ASG, yr Jordan was out.

of all their starters in the first 3 titles his teammates made 2 ASGs(both Pippen).

 

let's contrast this w/ the Miami teams:

starting lineup:

Wade- all time great player, lock HOfer

Bosh- top player, future HOfer

Chalmers- average player

Haslem- average player

Wade and Bosh made 4 ASGs(keep in mind this is 2 years vs. 3 for the Bulls)

 

Lebron had the better supporting cast for his Miami championships vs. the 1st 3 for Jordan and again Jordan didn't have to go form  a superteam.  There's no way his ego would allow that, he knew he was the best and would never go join other teams to win. 

1996-1998 Bulls starting lineups:

Pipppen- HOFer

Rodman-HOFer but really a HOF role player.  he was a great rebounder and D player, didn't do much else.

Harper- solid role player, never made ASG

Longley- not even an average C, never made ASG

Kukoc eventually joined starting lineup- decent player. never made ASG

in 1998 Pippen only played 44 games in reg season, they still won 62 games.

total ASG apps by teammates 1996-1998: 2 both from Pippen again

 

Cleveland 2016:

Irving- star player

Love- AS level player

JR Smith- average role player

Tristan Thompson- average player

no ASG apps by teammates though Love/Irving were AS caliber.

 

give the edge to Jordan's roster here but again he didn't go chase another superteam like Lebron did. this was 2nd time he formed a superteam to win a championship and next year will likely be the 3rd time.

 

14 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

And I'll tell you an even better one, Larry Bird and Magic. As if the dudes didn't play with rosters loaded with Hall of Famers and literally the greatest coaches of all time. But no, can't mention that. Because grit and smiles and showtime and lunchpails and they were so cute with each other.

ok, your point?

the greatest coaches of all time?  Pat Riley never won anything w/o the greatest players in the world. Magic went to a finals w/o Kareem and with Mike Dunleavy. The lakers still had Kareem and won 47 games yr before Magic, w/ Magic as a rookie they won 60 and the title.

Bird had KC Jones, remind me of all his winning w/o Larry? Boston the yr before Larry won 29 games, Larry's rookie year they won 61 and by yr 2 won the title.

12 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Yes. LeBron being a better executive than Jordan definitely somehow means he's a worse player. Bitching about the decision is the least secret code since pig latin. Nobody bitches when superteams are assembled by middle-aged white men and nobody bitches when teams assembled by LeBron are sh*tty.

when superteams are assembled by middle aged white men? what does that even mean? your racism is showing.

Lebron forms those teams, if they are sh*tty then it's his fault.  the problem is when they win it's all Lebron but when they lose people like you use the teammates excuse.   he could have won titles in Cleveland if he never left, instead he chose to form superteams to take the easy way out to titles.

tell me the star players pre Lebron in their primes who were FAs and went to other teams to join forces to win titles?  could you imagine competitors like michael, Magic, Larry saying they can't do it where they are and they need to join forces w/ other great players to win? you have to be kidding me.  Lebron wanted the easy way out to championships and he got it.  He also formed teams in the East which has been incredibly weak in this era w/ iterally no competition outside the couple of years of Boston in the late 00s/early 10s.

Lebron is an all time great, he's a top 5 all time player and maybe even as high as top 2.  he's not Michael.

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If I were starting a team tomorrow, I'd pick a 21 year old Lebron over a 21 year old Jordan, simply because I've never seen a player utterly dominate all facets of the game like Lebron routinely does (scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense).  What Lebron did two NBA finals ago was simply remarkable: The only player in NBA history to lead BOTH teams in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks). Thus, as an overall player, Lebron > Jordan. 

Now, if I needed to win a single basketball game to save my life and could add any single player to my team, I'd pick Jordan over Lebron. Jordan was clutch AF. When you needed a basket or key play down the stretch, there was no one quite like Jordan. Thus, if I'm playing game 7 of the NBA finals tomorrow, I'd say Jordan > Lebron. 

Basically, I don't think there is a correct answer to the Jordan/Lebron debate. It really depends how you look at it. 

 

 

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On 5/21/2018 at 7:28 AM, Philc1 said:

 

The year Jordan retired in 1994 they won 55 games without him

Yep. They were also an awful foul call away from potentially beating the Knicks in the Eastern Conference Semis that year. That Bulls team was stacked. 

 

Also, when Lebron left Cleveland, they went from being a 61 win team to a 19 win team. Again, Lebron's overall dominance on the sport/impact on a given team is impossible to overstate. 

 

 

 

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On 5/21/2018 at 11:02 AM, nyjunc said:

 

LeBron would have won in Cleveland the first time but he wanted to take the easy way out. Michael never would have done that.

 

I agree. I don't think Lebron has the competitive drive that Jordan had. I just think he is an athletic freak of nature. Basically "a man playing with boys" sort of deal. 

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On 5/21/2018 at 3:41 PM, RutgersJetFan said:

Quite a bit, actually. Grant, Kerr, and Harper won championships after him. Bill Cartwright was an AS long before he went to the Bulls, and Pippen was literally a MVP candidate in Jordan's absence. The list goes on.

It's stupid anyways. The revisionist and romanticized history about Jordan is beyond saving at this point. Rodman and Pippen were, by far, better players than anyone Lebron has ever had next to him, and that's including Wade. The problem, however, is that's all Lebron's fault, so who knows.

End of the day, I think Pippen got it right this week. They are both completely different players in completely different eras, and while comparing the two is fun it's probably impossible to come up with any sort of definitive answer.

I basically agree with all of this, especially the bolded. (The only complaint I might have is that Wade was pretty ******* great, lol)

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