Tony MaC Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 http://turnonthejets.com/2018/05/new-york-jets-does-todd-bowles-favor-veterans-too-much/ I felt as though this needed to be discussed here. This narrative that Todd Bowles refuses to play younger talent has always seemed greatly exaggerated and its nice to see tangible proof of it. TB is obviously not one to play a younger player when a season is looking down and out simply so that they can gain experience. But that doesn't mean he wont go with rookies over established veterans as a rule either. If a rookie is good or better than the veterans he'll play them, simple as that. Something to keep in mind going into summer. New York Jets – Does Todd Bowles Favor Veterans Too Much? Joe Caporoso on if Todd Bowles reputation for not trusting young players is accurate Share this: Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window) 9Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window)9 Click to share on Google+ (Opens in new window) One of the common criticisms from New York Jets fans about Head Coach Todd Bowles is his reluctance to embrace utilizing the younger players on his roster. This has led to an assumption that Bowles would have a problem starting Sam Darnold during his rookie year, instead preferring to stay with 2017 starter Josh McCown. There are plenty of valid criticisms of Bowles through three years, mostly around his game management and lack of aggressiveness, but is being antiquated in his thinking about giving younger players and rookies an opportunity actually a fair complaint? Bowles inherited a veteran heavy roster in 2015 after a spending spree in the preceding offseason. Despite this he opened training camp with Geno Smith as his starting quarterback, even with the presence of Ryan Fitzpatrick on the roster, who had substantially more starting experience. Smith lost his job due to an injury in the preseason and Bowles appropriately didn’t give it back to Smith due to Fitzpatrick’s production throughout 2015 but his initial inclination was to play the younger (at the time, potentially developing) quarterback over the veteran journeyman. Beyond this, the 2015 draft class was not held back despite the roster being loaded up with so many veterans. First round pick Leonard Williams played 887 snaps (77% of the defensive snaps) despite the presence of Muhammad Wilkerson and Sheldon Richardson, established above average starters at his position. Second round pick Devin Smith played 394 snaps and was immediately inserted in the offensive receiver rotation when he returned from his preseason injury in week 3. Smith’s snap total would have been higher if he had not been lost to a season ending injury in week 14. Third round pick Lorenzo Mauldin also played 353 snaps, despite missing multiple games due to injury. Bowles also had no issue with previously unproven second year player Quincy Enunwa knocking veteran Jeremy Kerley out of the team’s receiver rotation. Bowles was not without his flaws in this regard during 2015. He should have played cornerback Marcus Williams (489 snaps) more than Antonio Cromartie earlier in the year (993 snaps) but on the whole, there wasn’t a reluctance to avoid first and second year players. In 2016, the Jets season went dramatically different than 2015. Bowles likely stuck with the incumbent starter Fitzpatrick for a few games too many before benching him in week 7 for Geno Smith (who was promptly knocked out for the year). Over the reminder of the season, second year quarterback Bryce Petty was given four starts before also being knocked out for the year. To be fair to Bowles, there was no answer at quarterback for this team on his roster. 2016 first round pick Darron Lee played 788 snaps (62% of the defensive snaps), despite being largely ineffective. After an early season injury, third round pick, outside linebacker Jordan Jenkins played 588 snaps despite the Jets being predominantly a nickel defense. Fourth round rookie corner Juston Burris played 486 snaps, while fifth round rookie tackle Brandon Shell started the team’s final few games, logging over 200 snaps. Beyond that, rookie UDFA receiver Jalin Marshall received offensive reps starting in week 1 and totaled 226 snaps despite missing substantial time with an injury. Another rookie UDFA Robby Anderson began receiving reps in week 3 and finished the season with 717 snaps. Rookie seventh round receiver Charone Peake also added in 454 snaps himself, while the Jets seventh round rookie punter, Lachlan Edwards held his job the entire season. Another UDFA, Lawrence Thomas was in the defensive line rotation week 1 before being knocked out for the year with an injury and then converting into the team’s starting fullback in his second season. Finally in 2017, there was no hesitation from Bowles to start both first and second rounder Jamal Adams and Marcus Maye from day one, as they finished second and third on the team in total snaps. Sixth rounder Elijah McGuire played 267 snaps, while fourth rounder Chad Hansen played 376. Despite being leap frogged by Hansen on the depth chart, third round rookie ArDarius Stewart was given an opportunity to be the kick returner and played 363 snaps. The Jets finished 8th in the NFL in total rookie snaps and the number likely would have been higher if late round picks Jordan Leggett, Dylan Donahue and Jeremy Clark weren’t lost for the season with injuries very early in the year. View image on Twitter Pro Football Focus ✔@PFF A look at how many snaps rookies played for every team in the NFL! 11:47 AM - Feb 20, 2018 1,012 443 people are talking about this Twitter Ads info and privacy It should also be noted that Bowles gave second year quarterback Christian Hackenberg every chance to win the starting job last preseason over veteran Josh McCown. Hackenberg took the majority of first team training camp reps after the first week of practice and started the team’s second and third preseason game. He simply failed to win the job, leaving Bowles no choice but to start McCown, especially with Bryce Petty injured to end the preseason. Bowles has been far from perfect but he has been more than willing to give his young players a chance, despite many of them getting hurt or being ineffective out of the gate. He is less popular with fans than GM Mike Maccagann for reasons we discussed here but there is validity to this observation: Jeff Weiner ✔@JeffWeinerOS Replying to @JCaporoso Time has revealed Bowles’ reputation for not liking young players as actually reflecting that Macc has made a lot of bad draft picks. 8:35 PM - May 3, 2018 3 See Jeff Weiner's other Tweets Twitter Ads info and privacy Moving forward, it shouldn’t be assumed Bowles or the Jets coaching staff will be hesitant to play Sam Darnold this season, if he acquits himself well in training camp and the preseason. It also shouldn’t be assumed that other rookies and younger players on the roster won’t receive substantial reps or roles based on his previous decisions around playing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Something to also keep in mind is how much he loves him some Sam Darnold. If Darnold is looking ready...nothing is stopping Bowles from doing what needs to be done..not even Bowles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freestater Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Crusher said: Yes. Brevity is the soul of wit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESNewYork Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 It's a made up narrative that is popular here. The other is all the talent on the roster, particularly on defense. If you take a look at the past rosters, it was littered with players who are no longer in the NFL or are struggling with another team. Bowles is accused of having all these 1st round resources on defense, but look at the list. Pre Mac and Bowles 2010 Kyle Wilson, no longer in the NFL 2011 Mo Wilk, on a prove it one year deal 2012 Quinton Coples, no longer in the NFL 2013 Dee Miliner, no longer in the NFL 2013 Sheldon Richardson, on a prove it one year deal 2014 Calvin Pryor, no longer in the NFL Mac and Bowles picks 2015 - 2017, Williams, Lee, Adams. All young starters from day 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freestater Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 It is a bit exaggerated. Bowles' job may be on the line. If Darnold appears a better option than Teddy or McCown(!), he'll play him. I have little doubt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bealeb319 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 It is a bit exaggerated. Bowles' job may be on the line. If Darnold appears a better option than Teddy or McCown(!), he'll play him. I have little doubtI really hope he plays teddy and we are able to trade him away Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmajet Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 I buy all of the arguments about talent - Petty and Hack could not beat out Fitz and McCown, fine. I cannot get around Forte playing over Powell (although both vets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 He favors guys that know what is going on No dummies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Larz said: He favors guys that know what is going on No dummies i tend to agree. i think bowles truly does want to win football games and that's what he bases his starters on. hence starting fitz in 2015 when he had a broken hand over geno. but really does starting mean so much? with the exception of maybe half of the players, the rest are rotated in and out whenever the matchups are there or even just to give a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdels62 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 5 hours ago, RESNewYork said: It's a made up narrative that is popular here. The other is all the talent on the roster, particularly on defense. If you take a look at the past rosters, it was littered with players who are no longer in the NFL or are struggling with another team. Bowles is accused of having all these 1st round resources on defense, but look at the list. Pre Mac and Bowles 2010 Kyle Wilson, no longer in the NFL 2011 Mo Wilk, on a prove it one year deal 2012 Quinton Coples, no longer in the NFL 2013 Dee Miliner, no longer in the NFL 2013 Sheldon Richardson, on a prove it one year deal 2014 Calvin Pryor, no longer in the NFL Mac and Bowles picks 2015 - 2017, Williams, Lee, Adams. All young starters from day 1 I got the opposite of an erection from reading this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayNoToDMC Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Yeah, but he'll be gone next year(I been saying that for 3 years) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 9 hours ago, SayNoToDMC said: Yeah, but he'll be gone next year(I been saying that for 3 years) The coach is ripe for the slaughter?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetFaninMI Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 It may just be a lack of options. Lets face it Macc hasn't been tearing it up in regards to draft pics aside from some that fell into his lap(yes Darnold fell into his lap too). I think this season will put that favoring veterans theory to the test. Am I defending Bowles? NO. I'm just stating the facts as I see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long suffering jets fan Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 14 hours ago, bealeb319 said: I really hope he plays teddy and we are able to trade him away Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app Why so eager to get rid of a Teddy? This guy was a first round pick, the undisputed starter in Minnesota and was shaping up to be a good QB till he got hurt. McCown isn't going to be around forever and not sure if Hackenberg will even be on the team beyond training camp. I wouldn't mind Darnold and a healthy Bridgewater being our 1 and 2 next year. QBs get hurt all the time you need to have a solid backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 The answer is yes, no matter how you want to spin it. Obviously, last year's roster tear down created a situation where he had no choice but prior to the 2017 season and the 2 safeties starting day 1 would screw a snap count chart but here's a link to the 2016 snap count and you can see the heavy favoritism of the veterans, some who were absolutely terrible but Todd kept trotting them out there ie; Mo, Revis, Gilchrist, Pryor, Harris with younger talent on the roster who could use the snaps/experience, nope, still rolled out the bums. Mac forced his hand last year. Fact. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/2016-snap-counts.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Remember when Todd Bowles started Ryan Fitzpatrick for sixteen games in 2026 when the team was 5-11 and Fitzpatrick was the lowest rated quarterback in the league haha but seriously no it’s a meritocracy here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obrien2Toon Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Cromartie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 19 hours ago, RESNewYork said: It's a made up narrative that is popular here. The other is all the talent on the roster, particularly on defense. If you take a look at the past rosters, it was littered with players who are no longer in the NFL or are struggling with another team. Bowles is accused of having all these 1st round resources on defense, but look at the list. Pre Mac and Bowles 2010 Kyle Wilson, no longer in the NFL 2011 Mo Wilk, on a prove it one year deal 2012 Quinton Coples, no longer in the NFL 2013 Dee Miliner, no longer in the NFL 2013 Sheldon Richardson, on a prove it one year deal 2014 Calvin Pryor, no longer in the NFL Mac and Bowles picks 2015 - 2017, Williams, Lee, Adams. All young starters from day 1 If you don't like that narrative, maybe you can explain yours. Why does having had bad drafts prior to his arrival give him a veteran roster that is blocking his rookies and younger players? Regarding the article in the OP, how did he "inherit a veteran heavy roster?" That spending spree came after he was on board. Maccagnan and he were hired within a couple of days of each other. I tend to think the idea he won't play rookies is overblown. The problem is, the reason I think he doesn't (or waits to) play these younger players (Petty, Hack, Burris, Shell) is because they aren't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAR I Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 He knows he's not a good coach and he knows that his style is not what NFL owners are looking for. So he's always afraid of losing his job so he doesn't take chances on younger players. This is why he will be fired next year and we will make the splashy signing of an established head coach with a winning pedigree which is what you get when you draft a blue chip QB. Look for us to go after Andy Reid, Sean Peyton, or Mike Tomlin when they are released or resign. SAR I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 "It should also be noted that Bowles gave second year quarterback Christian Hackenberg every chance to win the starting job last preseason over veteran Josh McCown. Hackenberg took the majority of first team training camp reps after the first week of practice and started the team’s second and third preseason game. He simply failed to win the job, leaving Bowles no choice but to start McCown, especially with Bryce Petty injured to end the preseason. " This is a flat out lie imo., As for the rest he will play d rookies more than o rookies because being a d coach he thinks he can handle the risk. More distrubing is keeping vets in in a lost season like last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESNewYork Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said: If you don't like that narrative, maybe you can explain yours. Why does having had bad drafts prior to his arrival give him a veteran roster that is blocking his rookies and younger players? Regarding the article in the OP, how did he "inherit a veteran heavy roster?" That spending spree came after he was on board. Maccagnan and he were hired within a couple of days of each other. I tend to think the idea he won't play rookies is overblown. The problem is, the reason I think he doesn't (or waits to) play these younger players (Petty, Hack, Burris, Shell) is because they aren't very good. I think we agree? Won't play rookies is overblown. Why do I have to have a narrative? I think I see it for what it was. Year 1. Mac had a floor to spend. Signed veterans to contracts that did not put the future in jeopardy. Surprisingly win 10 games with journeyman QB who had career year and veterans who had career years. Broke offensive franchise records. Year 2. After 10 wins they tried to go for it. Journeyman QB crashed back to earth. Veterans fell off of cliff. 5 wins. Year 3. Purged roster of those veterans. Those veterans did nothing on their new team or are out of the league. No surprse they could only win 5 games the previous season. What was surprising was winning 5 games with a young roster lead by another journeyman QB. Fans love to say "We dedicated so much first round draft capital to the defense and Bowles still can't coach them up." See list I posted. 4 are no longer in the NFL. 2 just signed one year prove it deals. Overall Mac has drafted evenly offense and defense. The 3 first round picks Mac drafted on defense, 2 are considered ascending young cornerstones. 1 greatly improved year 2. See, no narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantasy Island Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 On 5/9/2018 at 4:54 PM, freestater said: Brevity is the soul of wit. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 21 hours ago, #27TheDominator said: If you don't like that narrative, maybe you can explain yours. Why does having had bad drafts prior to his arrival give him a veteran roster that is blocking his rookies and younger players? Regarding the article in the OP, how did he "inherit a veteran heavy roster?" That spending spree came after he was on board. Maccagnan and he were hired within a couple of days of each other. I tend to think the idea he won't play rookies is overblown. The problem is, the reason I think he doesn't (or waits to) play these younger players (Petty, Hack, Burris, Shell) is because they aren't very good. On the other hand the narrative also uses examples like 2015 rookies Williams D.Smith & Mauldin. When you peel the onion back, you see a bit more. Williams wasn't going to be on anyone's bench, and what he did was move Sheldon around because he was the most versatile. Smith was not starting over their veteran WRs, but honestly the team had only B.Marshall & Decker & then a lot of nothing. Enunwa was used as a blocker more than as a receiver, and didn't wow the team with improvement strides until the following summer. In other words, he got "you go deep" WR3 duties on a team with no one else to fill that role. Mauldin? Name all the other OLBers on the 2015 roster. That's why he saw the field as much as he did, and he still wasn't starting. All that aside, the reason is mostly because of your last line: the young players he's been given just suck. Wasn't so long ago people were angry that he didn't start Juston Burris the 2nd half of 2016, and based on limited action just 1 year ago he was anointed as one of Macc's big successes: finding a long-term starting CB in the 4th round. Why? He once caught an interception on a ball Matt Moore underthrew by 5 yards, purely because Burris was trailing his man him by the same distance. A week later some TE no one has ever heard of embarrassingly dusted him for a longer TD (length was only limited from being longer by the endzone's proximity). And still he was viewed as being a "gem" of a pick in comparison. The thing that bothers me (and others) most isn't merely the lack of playing time overall to young players, but rather the lack of playing time to young players even after the time the biggest homers plainly accept they're not contenders. If he didn't break his hand vs Denver, McCown likely would've started the rest of the season; if not for a revolt from fans & a zillion articles by the media, Fitz might have started all 16 games the year before. It's this nothing-to-lose/mulligan playing time that he puts off until it's so late that the team then signs or drafts the position the following spring because they don't have a young/proven man (or worse, fails to do so because a mildly-used player, like Burris, gave the team false hope in limited garbage-time). A lot of it is about job preservation, since in the end he's graded on how many games the Jets win, and losing games - even after they're out of contention - is still held against a HC on the hotseat (while winning meaningless games is rewarded). Mostly, though, I tend to agree with you it's that the draftees generally just stink, and he hasn't been keeping some abundance of rostered weapons on the bench purely out of some blind stupidity. If they look like the goods - e.g. Anderson: an undrafted rookie at a high profile position - they get playing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snell41 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 If this is really true, someone please list out all of the young guys that came in and outplayed the vet they were sitting behind for far too long. Bowles doesn’t favor vets to a fault. Bowles knew that Petty and Hack are and were downright awful. Fans demanded they see it for themselves, me included at times admittedly, and got pissed and assumed Bowles just won’t play young guys. Otherwise we’ve had young guys and rookies starting all over the team.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Snell41 said: If this is really true, someone please list out all of the young guys that came in and outplayed the vet they were sitting behind for far too long. Bowles doesn’t favor vets to a fault. Bowles knew that Petty and Hack are and were downright awful. Fans demanded they see it for themselves, me included at times admittedly, and got pissed and assumed Bowles just won’t play young guys. Otherwise we’ve had young guys and rookies starting all over the team. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Agree, but with the caveat that once we're eliminated who cares -- let them get some extra live reps so when (ok, if) they are looking more ready in practice, they'll have that much more live playing time under their belts. Plus playing live might throw some extra stuff at them that they don't see in practice against players whose tendencies/strengths/weaknesses they know well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenFish Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 I think it depends on if the rookie is good. If the rookie can’t play, he prefers to play the veteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 2:55 PM, GreenFish said: I think it depends on if the rookie is good. If the rookie can’t play, he prefers to play the veteran. Agree. I think Bowles stinks but to say he favors veterans just because he wouldn’t play Dumb and Dumber Hack and Petty gtfo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 On 5/11/2018 at 11:33 AM, Snell41 said: If this is really true, someone please list out all of the young guys that came in and outplayed the vet they were sitting behind for far too long. Bowles doesn’t favor vets to a fault. Bowles knew that Petty and Hack are and were downright awful. Fans demanded they see it for themselves, me included at times admittedly, and got pissed and assumed Bowles just won’t play young guys. Otherwise we’ve had young guys and rookies starting all over the team. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This perception was created by jets fans who actually thought Hack and Petty had talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetstream23 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Bowles wants to win. Bowles needs to win. I can't see him intentionally sitting a better rookie in favor of an ineffective veteran. If he's consciously making that choice then the ramifications will be poor team performance and lost games for which Bowles will eventually lose his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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