Can we talk receivers?

[Long Island Leprechaun]

There are clearly different ways to skin this cat. Pittsburgh and Atlanta are the more traditional model with an elite #1, but there are many successful teams that spread their receiver numbers around, as I already pointed out with NE and Philly. Here are more, and I added the Jets to show just what made us different last year (not the absence of an elite receiver, but the absence of quality #3 and #4 receivers. It's one or the other -- super elite guys that carry the load or a range of very good receivers that force coverage problems:

LA Rams

RECEIVING
NAME	REC	TAR	YDS	AVG	TD
Cooper Kupp	62	95	869	14.0	5
Todd Gurley II	64	87	788	12.3	6
Robert Woods	56	85	781	13.9	5
Sammy Watkins	39	70	593	15.2	8

 

Jacksonville Jaguars

RECEIVING
NAME	REC	TAR	YDS	AVG	TD
Keelan Cole	42	81	748	17.8	3
Marqise Lee	56	96	702	12.5	3
Allen Hurns	39	56	484	12.4	2
Dede Westbrook	27	51	339	12.6	1

 

New York Jets

RECEIVING
NAME	REC	TAR	YDS	AVG	TD
Robby Anderson	63	114	941	14.9	7
Jermaine Kearse	65	103	810	12.5	5
Austin Seferian-Jenkins	50	74	357	7.1	3
Matt Forte	37	45	293	7.9	1

 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

Lol 

Gimme a holler when Sam plays at Brady levels and then you can throw around NE in this conversation. 

Yeah, you're just reinforcing the point that others have already made. It's not about having an elite #1 receiver (Antonio Brown or Julio Jones) but about the quality of the QB influencing the success of a receiver group.

[Scoop24]

There only  like 7- 10  true #1 receivers in this league Julio, OBJ, AB, Green , Hopkins ,Mike Evans 

these guy aren’t growing on trees .. Robby would start for quite a few teams in this league 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

6 minutes ago, j4jets said:

I think you have a good assessment. But it’s one that JN hates to admit. We are in a denial. Most JN fans think the one-trick-pony is a true #1 and Kearse n Enunwa’s are a close 2a and 2b. Pryor can actually be the dark horse though. He may surprise us. One way or the other. I think he will be the 1k receiver he was in Factory of Sadness. 

The assumption that we expect Anderson to be Antonio Brown is frankly ridiculous. As I noted above, depth at receiver is a counter-balance to the traditional elite receiver model. Anderson producing a 1000 yards while Kearse produced 750 and Enunwa produces 700-800, and Pryor produces in that range as well makes our receiving corps elite.

[Paradis]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Yeah, you're just reinforcing the point that others have already made. It's not about having an elite #1 receiver (Antonio Brown or Julio Jones) but about the quality of the QB influencing the success of a receiver group.

no no no -- you're picking the best quaterback of all time. Talk about the mother of all outliers.  fck outta here with NE lol

ATL - had Julio and 2 high drafted RBs. PHI had both Jeffery and 1st round pick Agholor, and top TE of his class Ertz. We're playing with marbles in comparison. 

[Scoop24]

11 minutes ago, j4jets said:

I think you have a good assessment. But it’s one that JN hates to admit. We are in a denial. Most JN fans think the one-trick-pony is a true #1 and Kearse n Enunwa’s are a close 2a and 2b. Pryor can actually be the dark horse though. He may surprise us. One way or the other. I think he will be the 1k receiver he was in Factory of Sadness. 

I can’t take anything you say valid if you still calling him One trick pony .  Go re watch the games Anderson ran plenty routes off the tree this year . It’s specifically what he worked on with Chad Johnson last offseason and he improved quite a bit a it . 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

no no no -- you're picking the best quaterback of all time. Talk about the mother of all outliers.  fck outta here with NE lol

ATL - had Julio and 2 high drafted RBs. PHI had both Jeffery and 1st round pick Agholor, and top TE of his class Ertz. We're playing with marbles in comparison. 

Not based on the receivers' production. I don't care a damn where they were drafted. Look at the numbers. And those teams were successful. Wentz and Goff are not Tom Brady yet. Having Calvin Johnson is one way to approach the receiver issue, but it's not necessarily the only way or even the best way.

[Paradis]

4 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

There only  like 7- 10  true #1 receivers in this league Julio, OBJ, AB, Green , Hopkins ,Mike Evans 

these guy aren’t growing on trees .. Robby would start for quite a few teams in this league 

true (though don't confuse FF with real life, there's more than 7-10, more like 18-20)... which is why we have to start doing more to obtain one. I don't count 2 rnd picks at WR in 18 years as trying very hard. 

[Paradis]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Not based on the receivers' production. I don't care a damn where they were drafted. Look at the numbers. And those teams were successful. Wentz and Goff are not Tom Brady yet. Having Calvin Johnson is one way to approach the receiver issue, but it's not necessarily the only way or even the best way.

i don't give a sh*t what the numbers say - wins matter. that's the only stat that means anything. 

[Scoop24]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

true (though don't confuse FF with real life, there's more than 7-10, more like 18-20)... which is why we have to start doing more to obtain one. I don't count 2 rnd picks at WR in 18 years as trying very hard. 

There is no confusion There’s isn’t 18-20 true #1 in NFL. There good receivers but there is limited amount of true elite #1s like those guys . 

[RichardTodd27]

I'm actually excited about our WR's this year (especially Enunwa).

Young with lots of potential.

And please, no need to go after a big name malcontent WR (like Dez). Guys like Dez, Moss, T.O., Ochocinco, etc... don't seem to win Super Bowls.

I'll take a big name O-lineman over a WR any day.

[sec101row23]

When was the last time the Jets even drafted a true X receiver?  Keyshawn?   Moss and Coles were both more Z and slot guys, Hill was an abortion, they haven’t even taken many swings at it.   That’s why they’re reduced to a scrap heap and FA cast offs.  At some point you will NEED to get Darnold some legit pieces.  

[Paradis]

5 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

There is no confusion There’s isn’t 18-20 true #1 in NFL. There good receivers but there is limited amount of true elite #1s like those guys . 

Oooh now we're talking about elite? *eye roll*

These guys are all #1 on most offenses. 

1. Brown
2. OBJ
3. Green
4. Gordon
5. Evans
6. Allen
7. Cooper
8. Robinson
9. Watkins
10. Thomas
11. Hilton
12. Jones
13. Cooks
14. Hopkins
15. M Thomas
16. Adams
17. Jeffery
18. Bryant

 

Take your numbers somewhere else. Couple of those guys near the bottom are in swing years and slowing down - but all those guys are capable of producing. they're talented WRs who defense game plan for and can fill #1 shoes. 

[Paradis]

11 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

When was the last time the Jets even drafted a true X receiver?  Keyshawn?   Moss and Coles were both more Z and slot guys, Hill was an abortion, they haven’t even taken many swings at it.   That’s why they’re reduced to a scrap heap and FA cast offs.  At some point you will NEED to get Darnold some legit pieces.  

they've grotesquely ignored a true split. Bandaiding with troubled FAs and said abortions

it's 20 years since we drafted an X in round 1.... 20 freaking years. 

[RSJ]

Really the one WR this team is missing is a move the chains type slot WR with sure hands. They havent had one since Chrebet. Forcing the safety to play down on a guy like this opens everything else up on the outside.

[Scoop24]

15 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Oooh now we're talking about elite? *eye roll*

These guys are all #1 on most offenses. 

1. Brown
2. OBJ
3. Green
4. Gordon
5. Evans
6. Allen
7. Cooper
8. Robinson
9. Watkins
10. Thomas
11. Hilton
12. Jones
13. Cooks
14. Hopkins
15. M Thomas
16. Adams
17. Jeffery
18. Bryant

 

Take your numbers somewhere else. Couple of those guys near the bottom are in swing years and slowing down - but all those guys are capable of producing. they're talented WRs who defense game plan for and can fill #1 shoes. 

Lmaooo good job in proving my point .. ??? . you even know what true Elite #1 is ? Cooper just came off a sh*tty year that a elite #1? Sammy Watkins wasn’t even the #1 on the Rams, Ty Hilton great player but is slot receiver. Davante good #2 , Dameriyius Thomas is shell of himself really hasn’t been that productive since Peyton left .  only person on this list  that u ain’t list would Michael Thomas . Rest of the list full of 2 s and slots . And I’m hoping the last name on this list isn’t Dez Bryant cuz the guy can’t even run and struggling to get a job right now how would he be a #1 on most teams ? 

[Paradis]

9 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

Lmaooo good job in proving my point .. you even know what true Elite #1 is ? Cooper just came off a sh*tty year that a elite #1? Sammy Watkins wasn’t even the #1 on the Rams  ???? .  

those guys are number #1s pal. Last time i checked, Sammy just got what, 15 million a year? 

But hey, why would I expect a jets fan to understand what a #1 looks like? You probably haven't even seen one in your life in G&W... i can't expect you to understand. 

Also, you forgot at least 1 crying laugh face. 

[Scoop24]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

those guys are number #1s pal. Last time i checked, Sammy just got what, 15 million a year? 

But hey, why would I expect a jets fan to understand what a #1 looks like? You probably haven't even seen one in your life in G&W... i can't expect you to understand. 

Also, you forgot at least 1 crying laugh face. 

The fact u think Sammy Watkins is a number 1 is comical . He got 15 mill and everyone thought he got overpaid .  Dude had 598 yard in 15 games  yet you wanna trash your own in Robby who clearly out performed Sammy this year and last year 

[BCJet]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

no no no -- you're picking the best quaterback of all time. Talk about the mother of all outliers.  fck outta here with NE lol

ATL - had Julio and 2 high drafted RBs. PHI had both Jeffery and 1st round pick Agholor, and top TE of his class Ertz. We're playing with marbles in comparison. 

Im sorry can you clarify the Phila argument

Agholor  62 catches  768 yards 8 TDs

Jeffery 57 catches 789 yards 9 TDs

Robby Anderson 63 catches 941 yards and 7 TDs

Why isnt Anderson a comparable player exactly?

[#27TheDominator]

59 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Not based on the receivers' production. I don't care a damn where they were drafted. Look at the numbers. And those teams were successful. Wentz and Goff are not Tom Brady yet. Having Calvin Johnson is one way to approach the receiver issue, but it's not necessarily the only way or even the best way.

The problem is that you are considering yards as production.  Anderson and Kearse got a ton of targets.  Enunwa got a load in 2016 when Decker went down.  Pryor got 140 targets in 2016 on a bad Browns team.  There aren't enough targets out there for them all to produce anywhere near the levels you are talking about.  They need to be more efficient.  

[Jetsplayer21]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I remember this was a thing, but this article was from before the 2014 season.  The premise that you should not count on rookie WRs was kind of thrown out the window when guys like Beckham, Evans, Watkins and Benjamin had big rookie years. 

There is a similar article about free agent WRs not usually helping in their first season.  It may be the acclimation to they system as much as to the NFL game. 

It is pretty much every position. I think it’s more for offensive players. Now a days Olineman aren’t playing much their 1st yr, or impacting much either. Lot to learn. Why I think Mac avoids drafting offense like the plague.

[Scoop24]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The problem is that you are considering yards as production.  Anderson and Kearse got a ton of targets.  Enunwa got a load in 2016 when Decker went down.  Pryor got 140 targets in 2016 on a bad Browns team.  There aren't enough targets out there for them all to produce anywhere near the levels you are talking about.  They need to be more efficient.  

 No one thinks all 4 are having 1,000 yard season . The idea is to be able to rotate 4 players on the field that can be Reliable and make plays when called upon . All 4 of these guys have proven to be able do this . Jets might not have a Great WR or flashy big name guy. But they have solid group with depth . 

[Paradis]

25 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Im sorry can you clarify the Phila argument

Agholor  62 catches  768 yards 8 TDs

Jeffery 57 catches 789 yards 9 TDs

Robby Anderson 63 catches 941 yards and 7 TDs

Why isnt Anderson a comparable player exactly?

[Paradis]

30 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

The fact u think Sammy Watkins is a number 1 is comical . He got 15 mill and everyone thought he got overpaid .  Dude had 598 yard in 15 games  yet you wanna trash your own in Robby who clearly out performed Sammy this year and last year 

its comical is it? How much money do you make a year? Do you make as much as an NFL GM? Do you think that Sammy "invented" his market? That he simply said - nah nah guys, i'm amazing!  - and teams just believed him?... or is it more likely that people are paid to evaluate talent still see #1 there, despite what 2017 suggests?

Fck Robby, i'll take Sammy any day over that criminal mastermind

[BCJet]

19 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Um ok.  

Anderson may be a moron off the field, but if you think Nelson Algholor is a better player, im not sure what to tell you.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

40 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The problem is that you are considering yards as production.  Anderson and Kearse got a ton of targets.  Enunwa got a load in 2016 when Decker went down.  Pryor got 140 targets in 2016 on a bad Browns team.  There aren't enough targets out there for them all to produce anywhere near the levels you are talking about.  They need to be more efficient.  

Look at their average per catch. Anderson and Kearse were solid. And as targets they were at around one target more per game then their counterparts, mostly because there was junk behind them. The 2018 corps is promising because the return of Enunwa and addition of Pryor does actually create the possibility that we will have a balanced and high quality group. We don't have any guarantees at TE, which would add to the mix, but if Herndon or Leggett can put up even 400 yards, that would make for a respectable passing game. No elite guys here, but it's not necessary.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

20 minutes ago, Paradis said:

its comical is it? How much money do you make a year? Do you make as much as an NFL GM? Do you think that Sammy "invented" his market? That he simply said - nah nah guys, i'm amazing!  - and teams just believed him?... or is it more likely that people are paid to evaluate talent still see #1 there, despite what 2017 suggests?

Fck Robby, i'll take Sammy any day over that criminal mastermind

Wait, so you're actually arguing that where someone is drafted is the determination of their being "elite" and if that doesn't work, then go for how much they get paid? What kind of jungle juice are you drinking?

[joewilly12]

Terrell Owens hasn't played an NFL snap since 2010, but that doesn't mean he's officially done with football. Is the 44-year-old wide receiver working out to make an NFL comeback? Watch above to see why T.O.'s social media workouts could mean a return to the gridiron. 

[Paradis]

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

Um ok.  

Anderson may be a moron off the field, but if you think Nelson Algholor is a better player, im not sure what to tell you.

I'm being a little facetious, but you should check out the book. You'll get my point. Sometimes the most obvious answer, is the right one. 

[Paradis]

3 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Wait, so you're actually arguing that where someone is drafted is the determination of their being "elite" and if that doesn't work, then go for how much they get paid? What kind of jungle juice are you drinking?

32/32 teams will take Sammy Watkins over our any/all of our WRs. He's has #1 pedigree and potential. 

I don't know what the heck you're talking about tbh. This feels like a Jordan Peterson interview. Watkins has the talent and ability to be a #WR1. there's nothing to debate there. He was drafted high for that reason. He was paid for that reason. It's not an aberration. It's not confusing. He belongs on a #1WR list.

Someone's wrong on how valuable Watkins is... Is it you and JeffDaniels24, or is it the entire NFL? 

[#27TheDominator]

4 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

 No one thinks all 4 are having 1,000 yard season . The idea is to be able to rotate 4 players on the field that can be Reliable and make plays when called upon . All 4 of these guys have proven to be able do this . Jets might not have a Great WR or flashy big name guy. But they have solid group with depth . 

No.  First of all, these guys have not proven able to do this.  Of the 4 players that you are counting on, none have had 2 seasons over 800 yards.  Pryor's 2nd best year was 240 yards, Enunwa's 315. Anderson is in his 2nd year, but the others have been in the league from 2014, 2012 and 2011.  I am okay with seeing what we have, but acting like this is some kind of strength is misguided.  

Nobody thinks they are all having 1,000 yard seasons?  See below -  1,000 + 750 + 700-800 + 700-800?  So, they are all going to have career years?  

5 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

The assumption that we expect Anderson to be Antonio Brown is frankly ridiculous. As I noted above, depth at receiver is a counter-balance to the traditional elite receiver model. Anderson producing a 1000 yards while Kearse produced 750 and Enunwa produces 700-800, and Pryor produces in that range as well makes our receiving corps elite.

1,000 + 750 + 700-800 + 700-800?  So, they are all going to have career years?  This isn't going to happen.  

3 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Look at their average per catch. Anderson and Kearse were solid. And as targets they were at around one target more per game then their counterparts, mostly because there was junk behind them. The 2018 corps is promising because the return of Enunwa and addition of Pryor does actually create the possibility that we will have a balanced and high quality group. We don't have any guarantees at TE, which would add to the mix, but if Herndon or Leggett can put up even 400 yards, that would make for a respectable passing game. No elite guys here, but it's not necessary.

Dude, I don't give a **** about their average per catch.  Look at their average per target.  There are not enough throws around for these guys to all sniff 800 yards.  Everyone of them required 100+ to get to 800.  Then you are expecting Herndon or Leggett to get 400 yards?  On what?  4 targets?  I expect them to throw to the backs a bunch too. If you are gauging success on yards per season, you are bound to be disappointed. 

[j4jets]

6 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

The assumption that we expect Anderson to be Antonio Brown is frankly ridiculous. As I noted above, depth at receiver is a counter-balance to the traditional elite receiver model. Anderson producing a 1000 yards while Kearse produced 750 and Enunwa produces 700-800, and Pryor produces in that range as well makes our receiving corps elite.

Just because we have WRs capable of doing 800+ yards a season doesn’t mean we can put together 5 guys like that and all of a sudden produce 4000-5000 receiving yards. Having a true #1 makes everyone else around him better in theory. 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

45 minutes ago, j4jets said:

Just because we have WRs capable of doing 800+ yards a season doesn’t mean we can put together 5 guys like that and all of a sudden produce 4000-5000 receiving yards. Having a true #1 makes everyone else around him better in theory. 

In theory? The Patriots have been disproving this idea year after year. Bottom line, as someone else here pointed out, the QB will be a major factor in whether our receivers produce as I'm arguing or don't. All I'm saying is that it's well within the realm of possibility that we will have four receivers who can average at least 750 yards receiving. Of course that depends on Enunwa being fully healthy as well as Pryor. Call me an optimist... I think these guys can be a solid and productive group.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

No.  First of all, these guys have not proven able to do this.  Of the 4 players that you are counting on, none have had 2 seasons over 800 yards.  Pryor's 2nd best year was 240 yards, Enunwa's 315. Anderson is in his 2nd year, but the others have been in the league from 2014, 2012 and 2011.  I am okay with seeing what we have, but acting like this is some kind of strength is misguided.  

Nobody thinks they are all having 1,000 yard seasons?  See below -  1,000 + 750 + 700-800 + 700-800?  So, they are all going to have career years?  

1,000 + 750 + 700-800 + 700-800?  So, they are all going to have career years?  This isn't going to happen.  

Dude, I don't give a **** about their average per catch.  Look at their average per target.  There are not enough throws around for these guys to all sniff 800 yards.  Everyone of them required 100+ to get to 800.  Then you are expecting Herndon or Leggett to get 400 yards?  On what?  4 targets?  I expect them to throw to the backs a bunch too. If you are gauging success on yards per season, you are bound to be disappointed. 

so much truths across this whole post. It's like diced onions smeared across my eyes. 

[Paradis]

23 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

In theory? The Patriots have been disproving this idea year after year. Bottom line, as someone else here pointed out, the QB will be a major factor in whether our receivers produce as I'm arguing or don't. All I'm saying is that it's well within the realm of possibility that we will have four receivers who can average at least 750 yards receiving. Of course that depends on Enunwa being fully healthy as well as Pryor. Call me an optimist... I think these guys can be a solid and productive group.

I thought we covered the NE outlier. Basing arguments and strategies off that is not sane. 

And i missed the part where you called our WR corps elite. Suddenly this conversation feels like it needs to go in a different direction.... Are you ok?