Do Jets have double standard when it comes to QB development?

[Gas2No99]

Do Jets have double standard when it comes to QB development?

Reaching into the New York Jets mailbag on a couple of hot-button issues ...

@RichCimini Assume for the moment that Hack is right & Jets should have coached up his throwing motion. Isn't it legit to question @nyjets saying they won't mess with Darnold's 'hitchy' mechanics? Seems oddly missing with Bates' reported obsession with footwork. #jetsmail

— Rob Feinstein (@RobFeinstein) May 25, 2018

@RichCimini: Fair question, Rob. Allow me to make a couple of points.

You're right, the Jets say they're cool with Sam Darnold's quirky throwing motion -- an elongated delivery in which he lowers the ball as he brings it back. The difference between Darnold and Christian Hackenberg is that Darnold was a highly successful passer in college while Hackenberg was inconsistent, so I can understand why the Jets are in the "if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" mode with Darnold.

I agree with that approach. It's hard enough for a rookie quarterback to make a transition to the NFL, so the last thing he needs is to worry about overhauling his motion. It would be like a PGA Tour rookie trying a new swing after just qualifying.

Quarterback experts have told me it takes at least 8,000 reps to alter muscle memory, and Jets offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates evidently didn't think there was enough time for Hackenberg to get it done in one offseason. And let's be honest: The Jets knew Hackenberg had no future with the team, so they probably were hesitant to invest the time. I'm sure they'll be more receptive if Darnold wants to do the same thing next offseason.

---

From Ian Damon on Twitter: Is there a reason Buster is taking reps at No. 2 CB spot? Won't he play in the slot this season? #jetsmail

@RichCimini: You're right, Ian. Buster Skrine was working with the starting base defense, opposite Trumaine Johnson, in the first practice (open to the media). I was a little surprised, but if you recall, coach Todd Bowles hasn't anointed Morris Claiborne as the No. 2 cornerback. He has always painted it as a competition between Claiborne and Skrine. I think many observers, myself included, assumed it would be Claiborne and Johnson. So far, there appears to be legitimate competition. It wasn't just lip service from the coach.

It's way too early to draw any conclusions, but it's safe to say Skrine and Claiborne will be heavily involved. In the nickel, Skrine can slide inside to the slot, with Claiborne joining Johnson on the outside. I know fans aren't thrilled with Skrine, but he has a big fan in Bowles, whose opinion matters most.

It's a good time to discuss "Ring of Honor" candidates. I think Marvin Powell & Joe Fields need to be inducted before Nick & Brick. Is it possible to start a campaign to educate the fanbase about these 2 multiple Pro-Bowlers? #Jetsmail

— Kenneth Kaplan (@drkenkaplan) May 25, 2018

 

@RichCimini: You're preaching to the choir on this one, Ken, especially when it comes to Marvin Powell. Only four players in franchise history have been first-team All-Pro in at least three seasons: Larry Grantham (fives times in the AFL), Mark Gastineau (three), Darrelle Revis (three) and Powell (three). There's no doubt Powell belongs in the Ring.

From what I understand, Powell, living in Tampa, Florida, has lost touch with the team, but that's no reason to keep him out of the Ring. The Jets inducted Matt Snell, didn't they? Snell is so ticked off at the team (for reasons unknown) that he didn't show up for the ceremony.

So, yes, Powell belongs. Nick Mangold and D'Brickashaw Ferguson will be there some day, but why rush it?

[Joejet]

To break it down simplistically, Darnold was successful and accurate at the collegiate level and Hackenberg was not!  

[jetrider]

Dear @RobFeinstein: One QB has great accuracy, the other can't hit the battleship Missouri from the Cowpens St dock.

 

 

(it's Memorial Day weekend, okay?)

[BurnleyJet]

Dick be dickin.

[Jet9]

How about expanding rosters and allowing teams to, ya know, practice? Until then... 

[The Crusher]

You need to start with a QB to finish with a QB. 

[Jetsplayer21]

11 hours ago, Joejet said:

To break it down simplistically, Darnold was successful and accurate at the collegiate level and Hackenberg was not!  

Didn’t he lead the nation in turnovers last yr? I know he had a much shhittier OL than he did precious yr. he doesn’t have to worry about that on the jets ?

[Warfish]

Let's not pretend that this coaching staff has any record of any success "coaching" or "Developing" pro-level QB's.

 

[Joejet]

6 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Didn’t he lead the nation in turnovers last yr? I know he had a much shhittier OL than he did precious yr. he doesn’t have to worry about that on the jets ?

I’m not sure if he led the nation in turnovers or not.  His 2018 record was 11-3, he threw for 26 touchdowns with 13 interceptions with 63% completion rate and a 148.1 qb rating.  His career totals were 57 tds, 22 interceptions, a 65% completion rate and a qb rating of 153.7.  I consider those numbers to show accuracy and being successful.

Darnold did have 9 fumbles last year and that certainly needs to be cleaned up.  He isn’t perfect but the original point was that they weren’t changing his quirky form and that constitutes a double standard.  The stats say he was successful and that was the point that I was making.

[Beerfish]

It's easier to hit the ocean with and elongated hitch style throw it seems.

[Philc1]

For a guy who showed nothing in TC and preseason ever and constantly stunk in practice Hack has a big mouth

[Philc1]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Let's not pretend that this coaching staff has any record of any success "coaching" or "Developing" pro-level QB's.

 

Never had any talented qbs to work with ever. Rookies or veterans

 

And I hate Bowles but that is a fact

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Never had any talented qbs to work with ever. Rookies or veterans

 

And I hate Bowles but that is a fact

"This time my husband won't beat me, I'm sure of it.  I probably deserved it".

Battered Fan Syndrome is a sad thing to see.....

[RESNewYork]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Let's not pretend that this coaching staff has any record of any success "coaching" or "Developing" pro-level QB's.

 

This is some list of QBs this staff has worked with.

Ryan Fitzpatrick, a career journeyman who broke Jet single season offensive records. Fitzpatrick broke Jet records under this staff.

Geno Smith, has done nothing since leaving the Jets

Josh McCown, a career journeyman had one of his personal best seasons with the Jets last season. 13 games started. 67.3% completion, 2,926 yards, 18 TDs 9 picks. The staff did pretty well compared to what McCown has done career wise.

You can have an argument if Hack or Petty amount to something now that they are playing under different coaches but you have to admit they look more like Geno. And why waste any more resources with these two with what they showed when those resources are better spent developing Darnold. 

So looking at the QBs above what was the expectation that would have been deemed successful?

If you were a coach, would you feel you were given a fair shot to develop a QB when all you had was Petty and Hack? Wouldn't you feel you had success given the numbers you squeezed from Fitz and McCown. 

 

[SayNoToDMC]

No, Hackenburghs problem wasn't an elongated throwing motion.  It's the fact that at the end of it the ball was as likely to be in the stands as the receivers hands. You don't think the GM and coaches wanted him to succeed? Their Jobs should have been on the line with him if our ownership wasn't worthless. Mac shouldn't have been allowed to pick Darnold and Bowles staff shouldn't be allowed to coach him.

[Jetster]

5 hours ago, Warfish said:

Let's not pretend that this coaching staff has any record of any success "coaching" or "Developing" pro-level QB's.

 

When a QB that we've drafted leaves the Jets & becomes SUCCESSFUL, I'll have a comment on this. Until then the only thing we really know about these coaches is that they've had to try to coach up terrible young QBs, in Geno, Petty & Hackenberg.

[jetrider]

Cimini's title should be: In what other industry can a 21-yr-old sign a $4.66M contract before learning basic fundamentals? 

[slats]

2 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick, a career journeyman who broke Jet single season offensive records. Fitzpatrick broke Jet records under this staff.

Record. One. Singular. He broke the single-season TD record and nothing else. 

It was one of his best seasons, for certain, but I hate hearing the records instead of record because I can't stand the guy and hated when they resigned him. 

2 hours ago, RESNewYork said:

Geno Smith, has done nothing since leaving the Jets

If Geno could get his head together, he'd have the best chance of all the ex-Jet QBs to have any success, IMHO. 

The overall point is definitely valid, though, Bowles has had nothing to work with at QB since he got here, and got some of the best out of Fitz and McCown while shuffling thru OCs and having questionable offensive talent. 

[Gas2No99]

36 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Cimini's title should be: In what other industry can a 21-yr-old sign a $4.66M contract before learning basic fundamentals? 

 

Off the top of my head,

Sadly:

Rock Bands/Rap Groups - Music Industry

Pro Video Gamers - Video Game Industry

YouTube Brand-sponsored celebrities - Millenials

SUPER HOT int'l Prostitutes (see Ribery & Benzema scandal a few years back) - Leisure & Entertainment Industry 

[Sperm Edwards]

Usually you'll see teams correct mechanics first under the walk before you run mentality. On the other hand, if he can be successful enough to learn on the field (rather than developing bad habits to cover up bad habits), then even if they need correcting eventually, I can understand letting him learn the position better from the neck up first. 

I guess it depends on the player (like many things). He's been throwing this way since he was however old, so maybe one more season of it outweighs having neither the neck-up nor neck-down stuff second nature in year two. 

Wilson kind of has this windup as well. He's at a point he really could do with fixing it, as he seems to have the rest of the game as down pat as anyone needs to. Romo made big adjustments a couple of times in his career during the offseason. Recently so did Wentz, who played as a rookie then tinkered with his mechanics the winter/spring after that, and the Eagles were greatly rewarded from doing it "backwards" with run-then-walk in a sense. 

It seems this is what they tried with Hackenberg, but that was utter foolishness since it was obvious he wasn't going to be usable enough to play as a rookie, so he was going to lose the season either way, and they might as well have had him in mechanics camp from (at the latest) the day Fitz re-signed and Hack was a humiliating 4th string. Would have been less humiliating if 4th string was fake, that it wouldn't matter if he was 4th or 104th; his slot in the pecking order is irrelevant because he's not playing this year while he works on his mechanics. He probably would have been lousy no matter what, but would have been less lousy. 

[RESNewYork]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Record. One. Singular. He broke the single-season TD record and nothing else. 

It was one of his best seasons, for certain, but I hate hearing the records instead of record because I can't stand the guy and hated when they resigned him. 

If Geno could get his head together, he'd have the best chance of all the ex-Jet QBs to have any success, IMHO. 

The overall point is definitely valid, though, Bowles has had nothing to work with at QB since he got here, and got some of the best out of Fitz and McCown while shuffling thru OCs and having questionable offensive talent. 

You're right, but Fitz did have one of the best seasons any Jet QB has ever had. And yes the resign was a disaster but again, coming off that season, it was tough not to bring him back for one more season, especially with nothing else on the roster QB wise.

[rangerous]

On 5/26/2018 at 3:01 PM, Joejet said:

To break it down simplistically, Darnold was successful and accurate at the collegiate level and Hackenberg was not!  

that's makes the whole hack pick way more of a head scratcher.  in just about every draft it seems the top qb prospects have flawed throwing motions yet that didn't stop them from being a high drat pick.  hack?  wtf? it's like mac and co. were blinded by his freshman season and really discounted his lack of success in the next two seasons. well, he's gone now and let's all hope darnold is guy.

[rangerous]

3 hours ago, Jetster said:

When a QB that we've drafted leaves the Jets & becomes SUCCESSFUL, I'll have a comment on this. Until then the only thing we really know about these coaches is that they've had to try to coach up terrible young QBs, in Geno, Petty & Hackenberg.

imo, in all fairness to hack and geno, gailey just didn't have his heart in being the offensive coach, especially after the 2015 season.  whatever happened, they totally forgot that hack was supposed to be the future and ignored his development.  part of that is on bowles for not getting involved enough in how the offense was being run.  hopefully that's all in the rear view mirror and all parties have learned for the better.

[Jetster]

12 minutes ago, rangerous said:

imo, in all fairness to hack and geno, gailey just didn't have his heart in being the offensive coach, especially after the 2015 season.  whatever happened, they totally forgot that hack was supposed to be the future and ignored his development.  part of that is on bowles for not getting involved enough in how the offense was being run.  hopefully that's all in the rear view mirror and all parties have learned for the better.

Like I said, if Gruden turns Christian into a viable NFL starting QB then you can say it's true this group dropped the ball. But until that happens I'll just look at this as a case of bad draft picks.

[BurnleyJet]

9 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Like I said, if Gruden turns Christian into a viable NFL starting QB then you can say it's true this group dropped the ball. But until that happens I'll just look at this as a case of bad draft picks.

If Sam Darnold turns out to be a Franchise QB, I won't give a sh*t.

[Dcat]

21 hours ago, Jetster said:

Like I said, if Gruden turns Christian into a viable NFL starting QB then you can say it's true this group dropped the ball. But until that happens I'll just look at this as a case of bad draft picks.

That's about as likely as Kate Upton knocking on my door asking if she could sit on my face.

[jack48]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Gas2No99 said:

Do Jets have double standard when it comes to QB development?

Reaching into the New York Jets mailbag on a couple of hot-button issues ...

@RichCimini Assume for the moment that Hack is right & Jets should have coached up his throwing motion. Isn't it legit to question @nyjets saying they won't mess with Darnold's 'hitchy' mechanics? Seems oddly missing with Bates' reported obsession with footwork. #jetsmail

— Rob Feinstein (@RobFeinstein) May 25, 2018

@RichCimini: Fair question, Rob. Allow me to make a couple of points.

You're right, the Jets say they're cool with Sam Darnold's quirky throwing motion -- an elongated delivery in which he lowers the ball as he brings it back. The difference between Darnold and Christian Hackenberg is that Darnold was a highly successful passer in college while Hackenberg was inconsistent, so I can understand why the Jets are in the "if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" mode with Darnold.

I agree with that approach. It's hard enough for a rookie quarterback to make a transition to the NFL, so the last thing he needs is to worry about overhauling his motion. It would be like a PGA Tour rookie trying a new swing after just qualifying.

Quarterback experts have told me it takes at least 8,000 reps to alter muscle memory, and Jets offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates evidently didn't think there was enough time for Hackenberg to get it done in one offseason. And let's be honest: The Jets knew Hackenberg had no future with the team, so they probably were hesitant to invest the time. I'm sure they'll be more receptive if Darnold wants to do the same thing next offseason.

---

From Ian Damon on Twitter: Is there a reason Buster is taking reps at No. 2 CB spot? Won't he play in the slot this season? #jetsmail

@RichCimini: You're right, Ian. Buster Skrine was working with the starting base defense, opposite Trumaine Johnson, in the first practice (open to the media). I was a little surprised, but if you recall, coach Todd Bowles hasn't anointed Morris Claiborne as the No. 2 cornerback. He has always painted it as a competition between Claiborne and Skrine. I think many observers, myself included, assumed it would be Claiborne and Johnson. So far, there appears to be legitimate competition. It wasn't just lip service from the coach.

It's way too early to draw any conclusions, but it's safe to say Skrine and Claiborne will be heavily involved. In the nickel, Skrine can slide inside to the slot, with Claiborne joining Johnson on the outside. I know fans aren't thrilled with Skrine, but he has a big fan in Bowles, whose opinion matters most.

It's a good time to discuss "Ring of Honor" candidates. I think Marvin Powell & Joe Fields need to be inducted before Nick & Brick. Is it possible to start a campaign to educate the fanbase about these 2 multiple Pro-Bowlers? #Jetsmail

— Kenneth Kaplan (@drkenkaplan) May 25, 2018

 

@RichCimini: You're preaching to the choir on this one, Ken, especially when it comes to Marvin Powell. Only four players in franchise history have been first-team All-Pro in at least three seasons: Larry Grantham (fives times in the AFL), Mark Gastineau (three), Darrelle Revis (three) and Powell (three). There's no doubt Powell belongs in the Ring.

From what I understand, Powell, living in Tampa, Florida, has lost touch with the team, but that's no reason to keep him out of the Ring. The Jets inducted Matt Snell, didn't they? Snell is so ticked off at the team (for reasons unknown) that he didn't show up for the ceremony.

So, yes, Powell belongs. Nick Mangold and D'Brickashaw Ferguson will be there some day, but why rush it?

Actually it is a triple standard

[Philc1]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:39 AM, Warfish said:

"This time my husband won't beat me, I'm sure of it.  I probably deserved it".

Battered Fan Syndrome is a sad thing to see.....

Oh ok it’s battered fan syndrome to state the obvious that Hack and Petty were horrific football players

[Philc1]

8 hours ago, Dcat said:

That's about as likely as Kate Upton knocking on my door asking if she could sit on my face.

Don’t be shocked if the Raiders cut Hack.  I can’t see Hack surviving an entire TC and preseason with Gruden he has no patience for his type of nonsense

[ljr]

20 hours ago, Dcat said:

That's about as likely as Kate Upton knocking on my door asking if she could sit on my face.

Pics please

[kelly]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Gas2No99 said:

Do Jets have double standard when it comes to QB development?..

...please define  " double standard ".

 

thank you ! 

[Warfish]

12 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Oh ok it’s battered fan syndrome to state the obvious that Hack and Petty were horrific football players

Even a "horrific football player" should improve under great coaching.

Our players, across the board, do not improve under Bowles.  And many, including many of our most promising, decline.

White-Knight for Bowles and Co. if you like, I prefer results to pom poms.

[Philc1]

22 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Even a "horrific football player" should improve under great coaching.

Our players, across the board, do not improve under Bowles.  And many, including many of our most promising, decline.

White-Knight for Bowles and Co. if you like, I prefer results to pom poms.

I’m the furthest thing from a cheerleader for Bowles.  A prime Vince Lombardi isn’t getting anything out of those two busts

[Freemanm]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Gas2No99 said:

 

From Ian Damon on Twitter: Is there a reason Buster is taking reps at No. 2 CB spot? Won't he play in the slot this season? #jetsmail

@RichCimini: You're right, Ian. Buster Skrine was working with the starting base defense, opposite Trumaine Johnson, in the first practice (open to the media). I was a little surprised, but if you recall, coach Todd Bowles hasn't anointed Morris Claiborne as the No. 2 cornerback. He has always painted it as a competition between Claiborne and Skrine. I think many observers, myself included, assumed it would be Claiborne and Johnson. So far, there appears to be legitimate competition. It wasn't just lip service from the coach.

It's way too early to draw any conclusions, but it's safe to say Skrine and Claiborne will be heavily involved. In the nickel, Skrine can slide inside to the slot, with Claiborne joining Johnson on the outside. I know fans aren't thrilled with Skrine, but he has a big fan in Bowles, whose opinion matters most.

 

Todd Bowles is such an idiot. I wish Christopher Johnson would just fire him already and hire a coach who knows how to evaluate talent and develop rookie QBs. Bowles is truly the weakest link on this team.

[Jetsplayer21]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

Even a "horrific football player" should improve under great coaching.

Our players, across the board, do not improve under Bowles.  And many, including many of our most promising, decline.

White-Knight for Bowles and Co. if you like, I prefer results to pom poms.

Gotta disagree. It’s funny to see Mac gush over these UDFAs, especially Olineman and think he is going to make a jag into a star. When he traded our future 4th round pick to take shell in the 5th round, it’s widely known there is a huge drop off from 4th to 5th round.. Shell is a nice depth lineman. He was then and is now. Sure there is always the “outside “ chance the 5th rounder could be good. But it’s pretty rare. If Mac drafts a jag, it’s not due to bad coaching. These guys are learning a new trade..