Case for Teddy?

[j4jets]

1 minute ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

There is not enough tape to know what he is, but at least there is a fighting chance

Teddy, first 4 years (2 injured) played in 30 games, 6,150 passing yards with 28 TD's, 22 Int's and a 64.7 completion rate (2018 Jets will be just his 5th season, he is 25 years old)

Josh, first 4 years (Arizona) played in 33 games, 5,431 passing yards with 25 TD's, 29 Int's and a 57.8 completion rate (11 seasons later we know what we have)

I agree the Jets have shown no signs this will happen but hard to argue that Teddy does not deserve a chance to start if healthy.  Why not give Teddy a chance if he is plays well in camp and preseason? 

Starting Josh serves ZERO good to us. He’s not a tradable asset and he’s not taking us to the playoffs. And he’s not the best QB on the team. I’d rather Darnold starts than Josh. 

[j4jets]

3 minutes ago, Dcat said:

They strongly considered amputation.  Let's not be comparing this injury to others.  It's pointless and it doesn''t support your position. Let it rest.  Darnold is the future. teddy is on a one-season stop-over to try to resurect his career.  He'll either be traded for peanuts before the trade deadline or will serve as a temporary starter or back-up before he becomes a free agent. 

https://twitter.com/andy_vasquez/status/998940323467419648?s=20

Sorry, don’t know how to post the tweet here. His nearly amputated leg seems to be just fine. I’m ok with it. I guess if it was nearly amputated, it makes his progress/rehab irrelevant.

As for trading Teddy for peanuts, that would be beyond foolishness. I’d start him IF he outplays Darnold in PS and then keep him if he wins games, even if that means an entire season. 

[CanadaSteve]

10 minutes ago, slats said:

There hasn't been a top three QB go an entire season without starting a game in the last 50 years (at least). Sam Darnold isn't going to be the first. Despite your being unable to see it, they are clearly preparing him to start sooner than later while simultaneously severely restricting Teddy's first team reps. 

Look for Darnold to start a preseason game or two while Bridgewater gets the bulk of his work in game four. 

Yup, you are right.  There has not been a top three QB an entire season without starting a game in the past 50 years.  It has nothing to do with me not being able to see something.  It is the fact I DISAGREE with it. 

Wanna see the list? Sure you do, since that is why you brought it up.

STILL OUT

Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariotta, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Mitch Trubinsky.  Still too early to tell, but lets put them ALL in the good section to save argument. 

GOOD

Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Carson Palmer, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Troy Aikman, Vinny Testeverde, John Elway, Steve Bartkowski, Bert Jones, Jim Plunkett, Archie Manning, Dan Pastorini, Terry Bradshaw.

I am being generous in including Carson Palmer, Michael Vick, Steve McNair, Vinny, Bartkowski, Jones, and Pastorini. 

Out of that list, 6 Super Bowls as the starting QB.  Wentz does not get that honor since he didn't play in the playoffs at all.

BAD

Robert Griffin, Sam Bradford, Jamarcus Russell, Vince Young, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, Jeff George, Jim Evertt, Jack Thompson, Mike Phipps, Steve Spurrier, Blake Bortles.

Arguments could be made Bradford and Bortles are not 'bad,' but since I was generous above...

The average is about 57 percent good to bad.  So why not let the kid sit for a year.  Why not take a different strategy that nets just slightly better than half. 

It really is okay that I disagree with you guys.  Not like it matters anyway; You are not changing my mind and I am not changing your mind, and we are not making the decisions anyway.

[Jet Nut]

7 hours ago, j4jets said:

He literally only played for two years. And still made the PB. Last Jets QB to do that? Definitely not McCown or Sanchez. 

He made the Pro Bowl because he showed up over someone who wouldn't.  Under 3k his first season and 3.15k his second with 14 TDs per isn't a pro bowl QB to me.  

And seriously, the point is he has never come close to putting up numbers like you threw out as obtainable so why, after injury and missing seasons, should he have a chance today?  

I don't dislike a healthy TB, just don't see him as the kind of QB who will put up those kind of numbers.  

[slats]

21 minutes ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

I agree the Jets have shown no signs this will happen but hard to argue that Teddy does not deserve a chance to start if healthy.  Why not give Teddy a chance if he is plays well in camp and preseason? 

Because the only way Bridgewater is back on the Jets next year is if no one else in the league thinks he's starting caliber, and the Jets backup offer is the best one he gets. Which would also probably mean that Teddy shouldn't've been starting for the Jets. Meanwhile, it's probably a better than 50% proposition that McCown is back as the Jets backup next year. 

16 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

The average is about 57 percent good to bad.  So why not let the kid sit for a year.  Why not take a different strategy that nets just slightly better than half. 

Because there's a point in time in which sitting goes from being a learning experience to a waste of time. I agree that sitting a few weeks could be beneficial, but after that the only way he's really gonna learn and improve is by being on the field, taking live bullets. 

And this list of your "bad" QBs...

16 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

BAD

Robert Griffin, Sam Bradford, Jamarcus Russell, Vince Young, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, Jeff George, Jim Evertt, Jack Thompson, Mike Phipps, Steve Spurrier, Blake Bortles.

Arguments could be made Bradford and Bortles are not 'bad,' but since I was generous above...

Does Darnold fit in here at all? This is a list of troubled, fragile, or ridiculously overdrafted QBs. By all accounts Darnold is very talented, level-headed, mobile and durable. This was as close to the consensus #1 QB in this year's draft as you can get, and it was a gift to have him drop to #3 (as opposed to reaching for Sanchez at #5). This guy is far and away the best QB prospect this team has had since Namath, and he's got his head in the game much more than Namath did. 

He's gonna start, and he should start, much sooner rather than later. 

[j4jets]

41 minutes ago, slats said:

There hasn't been a top three QB go an entire season without starting a game in the last 50 years (at least). Sam Darnold isn't going to be the first. Despite your being unable to see it, they are clearly preparing him to start sooner than later while simultaneously severely restricting Teddy's first team reps. 

Look for Darnold to start a preseason game or two while Bridgewater gets the bulk of his work in game four. 

Except Aaron’s Rodgers of course. First name that comes to mind. First three seasons without a start. He hit the ground running in year 4. 

Although not a top 3, we even have a prime example of a QB sitting on the bench n learning in Pennington. 

[j4jets]

15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

He made the Pro Bowl because he showed up over someone who wouldn't.  Under 3k his first season and 3.15k his second with 14 TDs per isn't a pro bowl QB to me.  

And seriously, the point is he has never come close to putting up numbers like you threw out as obtainable so why, after injury and missing seasons, should he have a chance today?  

“Seriously, the point is” he has only played two seasons and still made the PB regardless of your opinion. The numbers I suggested, are essentially marginally better than what Fitz put up. And TB is light years ahead of the Beard. His injury hasn’t slowed him down one bit in practices so there is t anything to suggest he will crash n burn the moment that whistle blows. 

[Dcat]

39 minutes ago, j4jets said:

I’m acting like TB was just like TB before his injury. 

Teddy was a borderline game manager. You are acting as if he were Dan Marino.

[slats]

2 minutes ago, j4jets said:

Except Aaron’s Rodgers of course. First name that comes to mind. First three seasons without a start. He hit the ground running in year 4. 

Although not a top 3, we even have a prime example of a QB sitting on the bench n learning in Pennington. 

I have no idea if either of those guys needed to sit for years, it just so happens that they were stuck behind entrenched starters. And, like you said, they were far from being top three picks. Those guys start in their rookie years. 

And how is your man Teddy more ready to start than Darnold? Darnold's been playing football the last two years while Teddy's been rehabbing the leg that fell off, throwing a total of two passes that counted. Not to mention, yet again, that Sam was a much better prospect than Teddy coming out of school, and a much better prospect today. I really don't get the love for a guy who'd been pretty average before his devastating leg injury. A guy whose stats don't compare favorably to Ryan Tannehill's. Is it because the Jets drafted a safety the year he came out? That's the best explanation I can come up with. Teddy's ceiling is mid-level game-manager, while Darnold's hovers somewhere around the GOAT. 

[Jet Nut]

27 minutes ago, j4jets said:

“Seriously, the point is” he has only played two seasons and still made the PB regardless of your opinion. The numbers I suggested, are essentially marginally better than what Fitz put up. And TB is light years ahead of the Beard. His injury hasn’t slowed him down one bit in practices so there is t anything to suggest he will crash n burn the moment that whistle blows. 

Fitz threw for almost 4 K, Teddy 3.15K.  That's not essentially marginally better.  Fritz threw 31 TDs, the number you said TB would need to hit even though his high point is 14.  Less than half of Fitzs number.  Again not close to marginally better numbers, they're worse.  His injuries haven't come close to being tested in a football situation.  He's played catch with WRs.  Hasn't played a down of football. 

You do realize that Bradford, every season he blew his knee out was miles past where Teddy is today.  And never had the amount of damage that Teddy had.  

[j4jets]

42 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Fitz threw for almost 4 K, Teddy 3.15K.  That's not essentially marginally better.  Fritz threw 31 TDs, the number you said TB would need to hit even though his high point is 14.  Less than half of Fitzs number.  Again not close to marginally better numbers, they're worse.  His injuries haven't come close to being tested in a football situation.  He's played catch with WRs.  Hasn't played a down of football. 

You do realize that Bradford, every season he blew his knee out was miles past where Teddy is today.  And never had the amount of damage that Teddy had.  

You need to read what I wrote. Funny you brought up Bradford. He’s blown his knee a few times now and has come back looking better. 

[Jet Nut]

58 minutes ago, j4jets said:

You need to read what I wrote. Funny you brought up Bradford. He’s blown his knee a few times now and has come back looking better. 

Funny, he doesn't look better.  He didn't magically become a better qb.  Has always been more productive than what Teddy has on paper.  And you're ignoring my point, he was fine through non contact camps, can't stay on the field when playing the actual games.  

Its over, you think TB is somehow going to become 50% better than what he was before a devistating injury, one that no one knows he can even come back from.  And want to argue as if it's a fact.  

[j4jets]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Funny, he doesn't look better.  He didn't magically become a better qb.  Has always been more productive than what Teddy has on paper.  And you're ignoring my point, he was fine through non contact camps, can't stay on the field when playing the actual games.  

Its over, you think TB is somehow going to become 50% better than what he was before a devistating injury, one that no one knows he can even come back from.  And want to argue as if it's a fact.  

Except he has come back, practiced most of the last season, took a few snaps as well. Oh and the OTAs n minicamp this year. Those are facts. Is there anything else I claimed as a fact? You seem to hate my opinion. That’s ok. At the end of the day, we’re both hoping for the same outcome. 

[CanadaSteve]

7 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I love how you guys act like Bridgewater was Donovan McNabb before the horrific leg injury

We don't; he actually was better than McNabb after his first two seasons.  Those damn stats do get in the way of a good agenda though!

[CanadaSteve]

6 hours ago, slats said:

Because the only way Bridgewater is back on the Jets next year is if no one else in the league thinks he's starting caliber, and the Jets backup offer is the best one he gets. Which would also probably mean that Teddy shouldn't've been starting for the Jets. Meanwhile, it's probably a better than 50% proposition that McCown is back as the Jets backup next year. 

Because there's a point in time in which sitting goes from being a learning experience to a waste of time. I agree that sitting a few weeks could be beneficial, but after that the only way he's really gonna learn and improve is by being on the field, taking live bullets. 

And this list of your "bad" QBs...

Does Darnold fit in here at all? This is a list of troubled, fragile, or ridiculously overdrafted QBs. By all accounts Darnold is very talented, level-headed, mobile and durable. This was as close to the consensus #1 QB in this year's draft as you can get, and it was a gift to have him drop to #3 (as opposed to reaching for Sanchez at #5). This guy is far and away the best QB prospect this team has had since Namath, and he's got his head in the game much more than Namath did. 

He's gonna start, and he should start, much sooner rather than later. 

That is a convenient way to look at the list, rather than just saying they were bad.  Perhaps some of them were bad because they were rushed in too quickly. 

Ryan Leaf was a consensus pick....so was Robert Griffin....so was many of them on that list.  The bust rate is just a little better than 50 percent. 

We differ in opinions on this.  Won't change.  I do not see the issue with letting him sit for up to a year.  You do not.  So there it is.

[smokeybones123]

I agree that Teddy's numbers in 2015 were not great, but how much of that was his fault and how much of it was what he was asked to do.  His completion % was 9th (65.3) in the league, his average yards per pass was 17th at 7.2.  His passing attempts were 21st (447) last among QB's that started all 16 games.  If you gave him the attempts of the #10 QB in the league (572 attempts) his numbers would have averaged out to be 3818 yards, 24 td's and 16 interceptions.  That's taking his completion % and yards per attempt with the extra attempts he would have had.  That's not too bad for a 2nd year starter.  Then you can add in the fact that he ranked 24th in red zone attempts which he had 9 td's and 1 int we he did get a chance to throw a pass inside the 20.  Just saying if the team and coaches let him or needed him to do more he would have and could have.

[j4jets]

28 minutes ago, smokeybones123 said:

I agree that Teddy's numbers in 2015 were not great, but how much of that was his fault and how much of it was what he was asked to do.  His completion % was 9th (65.3) in the league, his average yards per pass was 17th at 7.2.  His passing attempts were 21st (447) last among QB's that started all 16 games.  If you gave him the attempts of the #10 QB in the league (572 attempts) his numbers would have averaged out to be 3818 yards, 24 td's and 16 interceptions.  That's taking his completion % and yards per attempt with the extra attempts he would have had.  That's not too bad for a 2nd year starter.  Then you can add in the fact that he ranked 24th in red zone attempts which he had 9 td's and 1 int we he did get a chance to throw a pass inside the 20.  Just saying if the team and coaches let him or needed him to do more he would have and could have.

[mkajet01]

Darnold has outplayed Bridgewater in Camp so it's a moot point

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[mkajet01]

I love how you guys act like Bridgewater was Donovan McNabb before the horrific leg injury

He's so overrated

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[mkajet01]

I'm thinking you're wanting Bridgewater as qb is based on wanting a qb other then mccown to start for Jets & not based on ability! Bridgewater had mediocre passer stats with talented offensive players! Don't know he was pro bowl, with 14 Td's 9 int's those aren't probowl stats

 

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[slats]

13 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

That is a convenient way to look at the list, rather than just saying they were bad.  Perhaps some of them were bad because they were rushed in too quickly. 

Ryan Leaf was a consensus pick....so was Robert Griffin....so was many of them on that list.  The bust rate is just a little better than 50 percent. 

We differ in opinions on this.  Won't change.  I do not see the issue with letting him sit for up to a year.  You do not.  So there it is.

Ryan Leaf had substance abuse issues, RGIII looked like the real deal until his leg fell off in a similar fashion to Bridgewater - but unfortunately he also has some attitude problems that need adjustment. Most of the players on your bad list had red flags. This year was a big QB year (I believe the first time that four QBs were taken in the top 10), and Darnold was almost certainly the cleanest of the group from that red flag perspective. Mayfield's maturity/size, Allen's inaccuracy, and Rosen's concussion history/lack of mobility being bigger concerns than Darnold's fumbles. 

So far, Darnold has demonstrated that he can keep up with all the playbook work, and get on the field and execute. All of his coaches repeat the same thing: when he makes a mistake, he doesn't repeat it. This is a kid who went from LB to the top pro QB prospect in three years. He's a fast learner who's only getting better. As long as he can understand protections (if the center calls them, like when Mangold was here, even better) and play at a competent level, he should play. Sitting him beyond a month or so would just be stunting his growth, not helping him. And I'm fairly confident that the Jets get that based on the work Sam is getting (the most, a lot with the starters) vs. what Bridgewater is getting (far less, and next to nothing with the starters) that they are grooming him to be their starting QB this year, sooner rather than later. 

You don't sit a prospect like this unless you have an entrenched star in front of him. The Jets, obviously, don't have that - regardless of anyone's overinflated opinion of Teddy. 

[slats]

10 hours ago, smokeybones123 said:

I agree that Teddy's numbers in 2015 were not great, but how much of that was his fault and how much of it was what he was asked to do.  His completion % was 9th (65.3) in the league, his average yards per pass was 17th at 7.2.  His passing attempts were 21st (447) last among QB's that started all 16 games.  If you gave him the attempts of the #10 QB in the league (572 attempts) his numbers would have averaged out to be 3818 yards, 24 td's and 16 interceptions.  That's taking his completion % and yards per attempt with the extra attempts he would have had.  That's not too bad for a 2nd year starter.  Then you can add in the fact that he ranked 24th in red zone attempts which he had 9 td's and 1 int we he did get a chance to throw a pass inside the 20.  Just saying if the team and coaches let him or needed him to do more he would have and could have.

Hello Louisville, Kentucky!  

[UntouchableCrew]

10 hours ago, smokeybones123 said:

I agree that Teddy's numbers in 2015 were not great, but how much of that was his fault and how much of it was what he was asked to do.  His completion % was 9th (65.3) in the league, his average yards per pass was 17th at 7.2.  His passing attempts were 21st (447) last among QB's that started all 16 games.  If you gave him the attempts of the #10 QB in the league (572 attempts) his numbers would have averaged out to be 3818 yards, 24 td's and 16 interceptions.  That's taking his completion % and yards per attempt with the extra attempts he would have had.  That's not too bad for a 2nd year starter.  Then you can add in the fact that he ranked 24th in red zone attempts which he had 9 td's and 1 int we he did get a chance to throw a pass inside the 20.  Just saying if the team and coaches let him or needed him to do more he would have and could have.

You don't really know this though. You can't just project that he would have produced at the same rate if asked to shoulder more because his efficiency could have largely been a product of not having to do much... And even if you did that TD:INT ratio is still not good... 

[mkajet01]

He's a game manager otherwise they'd have opened up offense for him! Basically they were afraid to open up offense with him at qb

Hello Louisville, Kentucky!  

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[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, slats said:

Ryan Leaf had substance abuse issues, RGIII looked like the real deal until his leg fell off in a similar fashion to Bridgewater - but unfortunately he also has some attitude problems that need adjustment. Most of the players on your bad list had red flags. This year was a big QB year (I believe the first time that four QBs were taken in the top 10), and Darnold was almost certainly the cleanest of the group from that red flag perspective. Mayfield's maturity/size, Allen's inaccuracy, and Rosen's concussion history/lack of mobility being bigger concerns than Darnold's fumbles. 

So far, Darnold has demonstrated that he can keep up with all the playbook work, and get on the field and execute. All of his coaches repeat the same thing: when he makes a mistake, he doesn't repeat it. This is a kid who went from LB to the top pro QB prospect in three years. He's a fast learner who's only getting better. As long as he can understand protections (if the center calls them, like when Mangold was here, even better) and play at a competent level, he should play. Sitting him beyond a month or so would just be stunting his growth, not helping him. And I'm fairly confident that the Jets get that based on the work Sam is getting (the most, a lot with the starters) vs. what Bridgewater is getting (far less, and next to nothing with the starters) that they are grooming him to be their starting QB this year, sooner rather than later. 

You don't sit a prospect like this unless you have an entrenched star in front of him. The Jets, obviously, don't have that - regardless of anyone's overinflated opinion of Teddy. 

We are not going to agree.  I do not believing sitting someone stunts their growth.  Didn't hurt Aaron Rodgers.  NFL is one of the only major sports without a developmental system.  There just MIGHT be a reason why their draft failure rate is so high compared to other sports.  We disagree.  Easy as that.

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You don't really know this though. You can't just project that he would have produced at the same rate if asked to shoulder more because his efficiency could have largely been a product of not having to do much... And even if you did that TD:INT ratio is still not good... 

Only one way to find out.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, mkajet01 said:

He's a game manager otherwise they'd have opened up offense for him! Basically they were afraid to open up offense with him at qb

 

 

Thanks for the insight Mr. Spielman and coach Zimmer.....

[slats]

1 minute ago, CanadaSteve said:

We are not going to agree.  You are not going to stunt someone's growth by making them sit. NFL is one of the only major sports without a developmental system.  There just MIGHT be a reason why their draft failure rate is so high compared to other sports.  We disagree.  Easy as that.

Opening day 2019, who's the better starting QB? The Sam Darnold who started 10+ games his rookie year? Or the Sam Darnold who sat the entire season? 

If you actually, honestly believe it's the latter, I'd love it if you could explain to me how that works. 

Thanks!

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Only one way to find out.

So the only way to find out if Bridgewater can have a 30% better season than he has ever had is to play him?  Fair enough, but we just know that Darnold will be helped by sitting and won't have a better season in 2018 and beyond? 

[Jet Nut]

19 hours ago, j4jets said:

Except he has come back, practiced most of the last season, took a few snaps as well. Oh and the OTAs n minicamp this year. Those are facts. Is there anything else I claimed as a fact? You seem to hate my opinion. That’s ok. At the end of the day, we’re both hoping for the same outcome. 

You're mistaken.  He couldn't practice, they let him in one game to ease his mind.  He attempted 2 passes, none complete. Those are hard facts that say nothing about his ability to play this season.  

Hate your opinion?  What is this?  I don't agree.  Hate?  Nope, why?  I just think you're being overly optimistic at this point. Nothing more.   

[j4jets]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You're mistaken.  He couldn't practice, they let him in one game to ease his mind.  He attempted 2 passes, none complete. Those are hard facts that say nothing about his ability to play this season.  

Hate your opinion?  What is this?  I don't agree.  Hate?  Nope, why?  I just think you're being overly optimistic at this point. Nothing more.   

Not sure where you’re getting your facts from but TB was a full participant most practices since November, after he was activated from PUP. The only reason TB didn’t play was cuz Case Keenum was lighting it up with a 7-2 record, coming off a 300 yard, 4 TD game. He ultimately led the team to a 13-3 record. Made no sense to bench him. 

I think you’re in for a pleasant surprise. 

[Jet Nut]

54 minutes ago, j4jets said:

Not sure where you’re getting your facts from but TB was a full participant most practices since November, after he was activated from PUP. The only reason TB didn’t play was cuz Case Keenum was lighting it up with a 7-2 record, coming off a 300 yard, 4 TD game. He ultimately led the team to a 13-3 record. Made no sense to bench him. 

I think you’re in for a pleasant surprise. 

After the season ended Zimmer said Teddys not ready to play.  He said that Bridgewater still has more recovery to go through.  He later said that the medical staff still has concerns over the knee,  

I hope you're right and he becomes tradable.  He's not playing more than a handful of games at most here.  It's Darnolds team. 

[Philc1]

22 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

We don't; he actually was better than McNabb after his first two seasons.  Those damn stats do get in the way of a good agenda though!

Oh right I forgot you think everything Mike Macagnan does is touched by the football gods

[Philc1]

45 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

After the season ended Zimmer said Teddys not ready to play.  He said that Bridgewater still has more recovery to go through.  He later said that the medical staff still has concerns over the knee,  

I hope you're right and he becomes tradable.  He's not playing more than a handful of games at most here.  It's Darnolds team. 

I don’t want Darnold to start week 1 but I definitely want him to start once McCown is injured or starts to suck

 

Playing Overrrated Teddy = Waste of time

 

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, mkajet01 said:

He's so overrated

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I don’t know if any of these posters ever even watched Teddy Bridgewater play in Minnesota.  All he did was 2 yard passes and bubble screens and occasionally scramble.  Glorified 2008 Matt Cassel