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2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Great point. Another reason brady* shouldn't be considered. Look at the awful garbage that the AFC, and specifically AFC East has been producing during his career.

brady* is the Lebron of the NFL...picking off the scraps of the AFC (the eastern conference for Lebron).

What? 

For the majority of Brady's career the AFC was easily the superior conference. While also rans like Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme made the Super Bowl from the NFC Brady had to fight Peyton Manning and the Colts, Roethlisberger and the Steelers, the Ravens, and the Chargers.

Agreed the AFC East has sucked for most of his career but he's had much tougher playoff opponents than most.

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1989 Joe Montana.  The real G.O.A.T.

Eli Manning.

Sam Darnold mother****er!

4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Comparing Belichick's first stint with the Browns is largely irrelevant. He's evolved as a coach. Hell, the first several years of Brady (when he was a high end game manager) don't matter as much as the offense Belichick started to implement when the NFL changed defensive holding rules in the mid-2000s.

The real deal is looking at the infrastructure that is there now and how other guys have performed in it. The answer is that guys like Matt Cassel, Jimmy Garrapolo and Jacoby Brissett have all performed well and won. And unfortunately for Jets fans when Brady retires I don't think the Pats are going away. Whatever guy they plug in there is going to be good too.

He evolved thanks to Brady, he was on his way to being fired in NE before Brady saved him. Remember BB was 5-13 in NE before Brady took over and they finished 2001 11-3.

 

Cassell took over an undefeated team and lost 5 games while missing the playoffs. He would win a div title in 2010.

Brisset was 1-1 including using being shut out.

Jimmy is the real talent, ready to play from the start.  

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3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

What? 

For the majority of Brady's career the AFC was easily the superior conference. While also rans like Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme made the Super Bowl from the NFC Brady had to fight Peyton Manning and the Colts, Roethlisberger and the Steelers, the Ravens, and the Chargers.

Agreed the AFC East has sucked for most of his career but he's had much tougher playoff opponents than most.

The AFC East has sucked because if Brady's dominance much like the NFC west in the 80s and for many years the Jets were a good team(much like the Rams for SF in the 80s)

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11 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The AFC East has sucked because if Brady's dominance much like the NFC west in the 80s and for many years the Jets were a good team(much like the Rams for SF in the 80s)

I mean the AFC East sucked because the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins all failed to acquire franchise QBs and you can't consistently win in the NFL without one. As good as Brady was he definitely benefited from a division schedule that didn't include any other good franchises.

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14 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He evolved thanks to Brady, he was on his way to being fired in NE before Brady saved him. Remember BB was 5-13 in NE before Brady took over and they finished 2001 11-3.

 

Cassell took over an undefeated team and lost 5 games while missing the playoffs. He would win a div title in 2010.

Brisset was 1-1 including using being shut out.

Jimmy is the real talent, ready to play from the start.  

Yeah, I just don't agree with this.

You know who IS the system? Peyton Manning IS the system. In 2009 they were 14-0 and went to the Super Bowl with one of the all time great offenses. Two years later they were the worst team in the league. Same coach, predominantly same talent, went from being a juggernaut to an absolute joke. Why? Because Peyton Manning was that great. His backups couldn't do what he did. Not even close.

When Brady went down Cassel was very good, won 11 games and if not for some goofball wildcat nonsense would have won the division anyway. There's a reason Pats backups are always coveted -- that system, that setup, with the GOAT coach makes them look better than they are.

I'm not trying to diminish Brady's greatness. But I think anybody who thinks he's anywhere close to that good on any old team is crazy. Some guys need the right situation to blossom into what they are, and need to run a certain scheme to maximize their talents. Brady fits that bill.

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11 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean the AFC East sucked because the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins all failed to acquire franchise QBs and you can't consistently win in the NFL without one. As good as Brady was he definitely benefited from a division schedule that didn't include any other good franchises.

They all tried and NE pounded us all. Brady and NE would have dominated any division.  

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34 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

What? 

For the majority of Brady's career the AFC was easily the superior conference. While also rans like Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme made the Super Bowl from the NFC Brady had to fight Peyton Manning and the Colts, Roethlisberger and the Steelers, the Ravens, and the Chargers.

Agreed the AFC East has sucked for most of his career but he's had much tougher playoff opponents than most.

dude....

1) I'm straight up trolling junc. You must have missed the obvious sarcasm in most of my posts directed at him, as opposed to my other posts in this thread.

2) Remove my snark, and there is still some truth to my post. When Brady was winning superbowls in the early 2000s, he was managing the games, not driving them. Belichick and the overall team had far more to do with those playoff runs than Brady. 2005-2006 is when you saw a shift and you saw Brady go from game manager to Elite QB.

Regarding the rest of your post, the chargers are a notoriously terrible playoff team (Pennington and Sanchez knocked them out, for gods sake), and Brady's record against the others you mentioned are as follows:
Peyton: 2-3 (including 0-3 after '04)
Ben: 2-0 (including Ben's rookie year when Brady was still just a game manager [completed 14 passes for 200 yards])
Ravens: 2-2

Conclusion: Brady's been given a clear path to the playoffs every year due to the AFC east being absolute garbage, and once he's gotten there, he's been money against the other garbage that the AFC has put out, and when he faced real competition in the guys you mentioned, he's only 1 game above .500.

 

At the end of the day, I'm generally trolling junc because it's so easy, but I'm happy to discuss Brady's merits. I'm not going to deny that he's without a doubt the most accomplished player in NFL history at the most important position. But that doesn't mean that he's the greatest or had to take the most difficult road to get there.

With all else being equal, if I got to choose any QB in their absolute prime, Brady's probably the 6th guy I'm taking after Elway, Rodgers, Big Ben (who I think is weighed down significantly by Tomlin), Peyton, and Montana (Montana also had an incredible coach and system, but can't argue with 4-0 in superbowls with 13 TDs vs. 0 ints). And that's only because I'm not old enough to have seen some of the older guys.

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3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They all tried and NE pounded us all. Brady and NE would have dominated any division.  

I agree they would have dominated but not to the extent that they have. Pats have won the AFC East 15 out of 17 years Brady has been the starter. No way that's true if they have a better franchise like the Steelers or Colts in their division.

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41 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Wait a minute.  Terrell Davis had 150 yards and 3 TDs in the Packers SB.  Elway had 123 yards passing with 0 TDs and 1 INT.  Not quite 'all by his lonesome'.  

I said 3 mediocre teams meaning the Elway's first 3 Super Bowls.

The last two Super Bowls he played in, he was just along for the ride.

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6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Yeah, I just don't agree with this.

You know who IS the system? Peyton Manning IS the system. In 2009 they were 14-0 and went to the Super Bowl with one of the all time great offenses. Two years later they were the worst team in the league. Same coach, predominantly same talent, went from being a juggernaut to an absolute joke. Why? Because Peyton Manning was that great. His backups couldn't do what he did. Not even close.

When Brady went down Cassel was very good, won 11 games and if not for some goofball wildcat nonsense would have won the division anyway. There's a reason Pats backups are always coveted -- that system, that setup, with the GOAT coach makes them look better than they are.

I'm not trying to diminish Brady's greatness. But I think anybody who thinks he's anywhere close to that good on any old team is crazy. Some guys need the right situation to blossom into what they are, and need to run a certain scheme to maximize their talents. Brady fits that bill.

Yep and in 2009 he threw an int to cost his team the super bowl.

Two years later Indy sucked because they TANKED to get Luck. A year later they won double digit games and were a playoff team again.

 

When Brady went down NE went from 16-0 to 11-5 against a much weaker schedule. Do you realize how great a difference 5 games is? If we win 5 more games this year we'll be 10-6.

 

Brady took over any old team, a team in steep decline with a coach considered one of the worst HCs in the game at the time and he instantly turned the franchise around. 

Indianapolis and Denver with Manning both had more talent. Brady would have won 6-7 super bowls with all that talent.  As great as Peyton was he struggled in January and that is what separates the two.

Manning won 2 SBs and in both SB runs the D did all the heavy lifting.  Only 1 SB run could NEs D be given somewhat similar credit and that was Brady's first SB where NEs D became the first D ever to blow a double digit 4tg qtr lead in the SB (matched 2 yrs later when they became the 2nd D ever to do that)

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1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I agree they would have dominated but not to the extent that they have. Pats have won the AFC East 15 out of 17 years Brady has been the starter. No way that's true if they have a better franchise like the Steelers or Colts in their division.

They would have done it in any division or at least close.  Over 16 games no one can touch no NE, in a one game situation teams have a chance.

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3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

dude....

1) I'm straight up trolling junc. You must have missed the obvious sarcasm in most of my posts directed at him, as opposed to my other posts in this thread.

2) Remove my snark, and there is still some truth to my post. When Brady was winning superbowls in the early 2000s, he was managing the games, not driving them. Belichick and the overall team had far more to do with those playoff runs than Brady. 2005-2006 is when you saw a shift and you saw Brady go from game manager to Elite QB.

Regarding the rest of your post, the chargers are a notoriously terrible playoff team (Pennington and Sanchez knocked them out, for gods sake), and Brady's record against the others you mentioned are as follows:
Peyton: 2-3 (including 0-3 after '04)
Ben: 2-0 (including Ben's rookie year when Brady was still just a game manager [completed 14 passes for 200 yards])
Ravens: 2-2

Conclusion: Brady's been given a clear path to the playoffs every year due to the AFC east being absolute garbage, and once he's gotten there, he's been money against the other garbage that the AFC has put out, and when he faced real competition in the guys you mentioned, he's only 1 game above .500.

 

At the end of the day, I'm generally trolling junc because it's so easy, but I'm happy to discuss Brady's merits. I'm not going to deny that he's without a doubt the most accomplished player in NFL history at the most important position. But that doesn't mean that he's the greatest or had to take the most difficult road to get there.

With all else being equal, if I got to choose any QB in their absolute prime, Brady's probably the 6th guy I'm taking after Elway, Rodgers, Big Ben (who I think is weighed down significantly by Tomlin), Peyton, and Montana (Montana also had an incredible coach and system, but can't argue with 4-0 in superbowls with 13 TDs vs. 0 ints).

Belichick and the overall pats team was 5-13 workout Brady then became a dynasty with Brady but yeah Brady was just along for the ride.

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1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Yep and in 2009 he threw an int to cost his team the super bowl.

Two years later Indy sucked because they TANKED to get Luck. A year later they won double digit games and were a playoff team again.

 

When Brady went down NE went from 16-0 to 11-5 against a much weaker schedule. Do you realize how great a difference 5 games is? If we win 5 more games this year we'll be 10-6.

 

Brady took over any old team, a team in steep decline with a coach considered one of the worst HCs in the game at the time and he instantly turned the franchise around. 

Indianapolis and Denver with Manning both had more talent. Brady would have won 6-7 super bowls with all that talent.  As great as Peyton was he struggled in January and that is what separates the two.

Manning won 2 SBs and in both SB runs the D did all the heavy lifting.  Only 1 SB run could NEs D be given somewhat similar credit and that was Brady's first SB where NEs D became the first D ever to blow a double digit 4tg qtr lead in the SB (matched 2 yrs later when they became the 2nd D ever to do that)

Much of this post is irrelevant or incorrect but it's obvious you're just a huge Brady Stan that isn't really worth discussing this stuff with so I'm not going to break it down point by point... You're really awful when it comes to derailing threads with your agenda driven posts.

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Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

Much of this post is irrelevant or incorrect but it's obvious you're just a huge Brady Stan that isn't really worth discussing this stuff with so I'm not going to break it down point by point... You're really awful when it comes to derailing threads with your agenda driven posts.

I discuss reality, I hate NE and Brady but I appreciate greatness. He's far and away the best of all time. I wish it wasn't true but it is.

By agenda you mean factual arguments, right?

Don't attack me, attack my argument. Please show me where I am wrong.

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4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Much of this post is irrelevant or incorrect but it's obvious you're just a huge Brady Stan that isn't really worth discussing this stuff with so I'm not going to break it down point by point... You're really awful when it comes to derailing threads with your agenda driven posts.

Annnd there's where my obvious junc trolling comes into play.

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3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Your team is playing against an evenly matched opponent and you can choose one Quarterback from one point in time to QB your team for the game. This is not based on career accomplishments. Rather, you have the player at the height of his game. And please choose someone that you actually saw play. Don't base it on stats alone.

My selection would be 1976 Bert Jones. The guy had a fire in him that one rarely sees in a QB. He was not one for quiet leadership. He was the unquestioned leader of his team. One might think that a QB who yelled at teammates on the field would be disliked, but Jones put his body on the line to make plays. Absorbing hits to make throws and running into LBs to gain the extra yard for first down. It was as you put Jack Lambert's mentality inside a QB. He led the Colts to an 11-3 record in 1976. With Jones the Colts were a playoff team; without him they were one of the worst teams in the league (as was proven after he was injured in 1978).

Making matters worse for his opponents, Jones was not only fiery and hard-nosed, but he was a great passer as well. In an era where throwing the ball was difficult, in 1976  (14 game season) Jones had 3,104 yards, 24 touchdowns against only 9 interceptions, and he completed 60.3%.   His passer rating of 102.5 represents one of only three occasions where a quarterback posted a 100+ passer rating during the entire decade of the 1970s. Fittingly, he was named NFL MVP. 

Perhaps those who never saw him play think selecting Bert Jones at the height of his game is silly with so many other great QB's in the game. But, I am not alone in my lofty opinions of Bert Jones.  https://nesn.com/2016/11/if-bill-belichick-could-choose-one-quarterback-to-lead-his-team-he-would-pick/

easy: Montana

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Just now, greenwichjetfan said:

Annnd there's where my obvious junc trolling comes into play.

No, because you have never been able to effectively counter my arguments is where it comes from but please keep playing pretend.

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1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

No, because you have never been able to effectively counter my arguments is where it comes from but please keep playing pretend.

That must be it. I believe you're - 0 in all arguments against everyone ever. I have yet to see a thread which you've derailed that doesn't end in the above line.

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2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

That must be it. I believe you're - 0 in all arguments against everyone ever. I have yet to see a thread which you've derailed that doesn't end in the above line.

The ones that derail are the ones that don't respond to the argument but instead just attack the other posters.

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1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

The ones that derail are the ones that don't respond to the argument but instead just attack the other posters.

Here is a response to your constant derailment:  You overvalue changes from regular season to playoffs.  If the Giants D wakes up in the playoffs, they were all of a sudden ridden by the O.  These things don't happen.  The playoffs are played tighter and when things go off the rails, they can go FAR off the rails.  If Bob Sanders doesn't get hurt and the Colts D finally isn't bottom 10, then "the D did all the heavy lifting."  Manning put up 32 in the second half against the #2 in the league - his nemesis, but you will complain that Bill Belichick, a HOF coach is overrated and choked in the playoffs.

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3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Your team is playing against an evenly matched opponent and you can choose one Quarterback from one point in time to QB your team for the game. This is not based on career accomplishments. Rather, you have the player at the height of his game. And please choose someone that you actually saw play. Don't base it on stats alone.

My selection would be 1976 Bert Jones. The guy had a fire in him that one rarely sees in a QB. He was not one for quiet leadership. He was the unquestioned leader of his team. One might think that a QB who yelled at teammates on the field would be disliked, but Jones put his body on the line to make plays. Absorbing hits to make throws and running into LBs to gain the extra yard for first down. It was as you put Jack Lambert's mentality inside a QB. He led the Colts to an 11-3 record in 1976. With Jones the Colts were a playoff team; without him they were one of the worst teams in the league (as was proven after he was injured in 1978).

Making matters worse for his opponents, Jones was not only fiery and hard-nosed, but he was a great passer as well. In an era where throwing the ball was difficult, in 1976  (14 game season) Jones had 3,104 yards, 24 touchdowns against only 9 interceptions, and he completed 60.3%.   His passer rating of 102.5 represents one of only three occasions where a quarterback posted a 100+ passer rating during the entire decade of the 1970s. Fittingly, he was named NFL MVP. 

Perhaps those who never saw him play think selecting Bert Jones at the height of his game is silly with so many other great QB's in the game. But, I am not alone in my lofty opinions of Bert Jones.  https://nesn.com/2016/11/if-bill-belichick-could-choose-one-quarterback-to-lead-his-team-he-would-pick/

Bert Jones was too weak to rely upon with the pressure on. IIRC he was unable to crush an empty Miller Lite can.

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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Here is a response to your constant derailment:  You overvalue changes from regular season to playoffs.  If the Giants D wakes up in the playoffs, they were all of a sudden ridden by the O.  These things don't happen.  The playoffs are played tighter and when things go off the rails, they can go FAR off the rails.  If Bob Sanders doesn't get hurt and the Colts D finally isn't bottom 10, then "the D did all the heavy lifting."  Manning put up 32 in the second half against the #2 in the league - his nemesis, but you will complain that Bill Belichick, a HOF coach is overrated and choked in the playoffs.

The Giants D played like a dominant D in both of those playoff runs including TWICE shutting down the greatest QB of all time allowing their O to score 17 & 19 pts to win two super bowls.

For Indy 2006 their D allowed an AVERAGE of 12.8 points per game.  In that postseason the great Peyton Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 postseason games but yeah it was all about Peyton.

Peyton had one great half that postseason, other than that he did very little and part of the reason they were down 21-6 at the half was because Peyton threw a pick 6.

You can look up BBs D's in postseason. It's a trend how many times they came up small in big moments but Peyton deserves credit for that great half. That was the greatest moment of his career, he looked like regular season Peyton. Unfortunately most of his postseason career he didn't look like reg season Peyton which is why he has an astounding number of one and dones in the playoffs and if not for Denver's D literally carrying him to that last SB he'd have a below 500 postseason record.

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6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Your team is playing against an evenly matched opponent and you can choose one Quarterback from one point in time to QB your team for the game. This is not based on career accomplishments. Rather, you have the player at the height of his game. And please choose someone that you actually saw play. Don't base it on stats alone.

My selection would be 1976 Bert Jones. The guy had a fire in him that one rarely sees in a QB. He was not one for quiet leadership. He was the unquestioned leader of his team. One might think that a QB who yelled at teammates on the field would be disliked, but Jones put his body on the line to make plays. Absorbing hits to make throws and running into LBs to gain the extra yard for first down. It was as you put Jack Lambert's mentality inside a QB. He led the Colts to an 11-3 record in 1976. With Jones the Colts were a playoff team; without him they were one of the worst teams in the league (as was proven after he was injured in 1978).

Making matters worse for his opponents, Jones was not only fiery and hard-nosed, but he was a great passer as well. In an era where throwing the ball was difficult, in 1976  (14 game season) Jones had 3,104 yards, 24 touchdowns against only 9 interceptions, and he completed 60.3%.   His passer rating of 102.5 represents one of only three occasions where a quarterback posted a 100+ passer rating during the entire decade of the 1970s. Fittingly, he was named NFL MVP. 

Perhaps those who never saw him play think selecting Bert Jones at the height of his game is silly with so many other great QB's in the game. But, I am not alone in my lofty opinions of Bert Jones.  https://nesn.com/2016/11/if-bill-belichick-could-choose-one-quarterback-to-lead-his-team-he-would-pick/

Joe Cool. 

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6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

This is a tough question.  I mean, you have Y.A. Title, Sammy Baugh, Jim Kelly, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Bart Starr....Then obviously you have the Montana's, Brady's, Mannings, Favre's, of the world.  Haven't seen any love for Kenny Stabler.

But if I had one game, and ESPECIALLY one drive to win a game, I would probably have to go with Joe Montana in his prime. 

Stabler would do anything to get a win.   They created rules to stop him.  

The Holy Roller    The Sea of Hands catch which came from an amazing throw while being tackled.   He would have had 4 rings with the 2nd best team in the NFL, he just happened to be stuck behind Pitt.

One game, Montana.   After him Brady.    I can't go back much more than late 70s, I never saw them play. 

Of the old timers, Johnny U.   The man who invented the 2 minute drive.  The man who took it 80 yards in 2 minutes against an all time Giant defense in 1958

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