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Mike Maccagnan has built a Jets team he can believe in


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24 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You said judge after this year. So we’d be judging next year which would be season 5 going into offseason 6. My math is fine. Macc is not. 

I originally said after this year.  We really don't need to argue this.  It's not time after the first two years of a rebuild, his FQB in place to go on about when he'll be fired.  Too early.  If this draft sucks, even if Darnold is a stud, you start thinking about it.

Then again I already said this.  

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Honestly, we have to be  competitive and between 7-9 and 9-7 at the minimum for both Mac and Bowles to be even remotely safe. Any thing less than that or a 7-9 with bad unit rankings and at least 1 of those guys has to go - both of Darnold is hung out to dry. 

I like what Mac has done since 2016 in terms of roster turnover and his more recent change into using analytics and method of signing FAs for value.

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4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

All I'm saying.  The time is coming really soon.  Hopefully it works, smoothest way to successfully move forward as opposed to dumping out and starting over.  But if this draft doesn't pan out, even if Darnold does, the pressure will and should mount.  Though I never get the impression attending games that those fans are as concerned as fans on forums

Macs got a while. If anything they’ll get rid of Bowles first. And Mac will live with another HC for another couple years after that. 

 

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On 7/31/2018 at 5:47 PM, Beerfish said:

Totally ignored the offensive line in the draft.

No pass rushers.

No real weapons for the Qb that other teams will have to game plan for.

He has a lot of work to do.  I'd like to see him operate with a real coach though.  The defense has let this team down and the guy responsible for it is the head coach.

Agreed....  He has been nothing spectacular in 3 years, I’m not gonna drink Kool aid just yet.  no playoffs since 2010 and front office , after overpaying for Fitz, makes same commitment to McGown.  let’s just see what happens.  

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3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I originally said after this year.  We really don't need to argue this.  It's not time after the first two years of a rebuild, his FQB in place to go on about when he'll be fired.  Too early.  If this draft sucks, even if Darnold is a stud, you start thinking about it.

Then again I already said this.  

Been here for four years but only the second year of the rebuild. Haha what?!

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11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So why didn't he draft a center instead of trading down 5 slots to pick up a late round pick (used on a nutcase driving the wrong way in the Lincoln Tunnel)? Never mind that it was done some 2 months after releasing Mangold, with only $2.7m RFA Wes Johnson in place. Ask the Vikings if they'd trade their 2nd year starting center, making all of $1m/year for the next 3 years, for Stewart, whose roster spot may only be saved temporarily by getting suspended for the first 2 games. The next 3 years of Elflein will cost the same amount as last year's Wes Johnson debacle.

So it's never the "right move" to pass up cheap, young, talented OLmen at a position of need, to pick up a low-percentage draft pick (that we only needed to recoup because his idiotic+bust UFA pickups in 2016 negated a few compensatory picks for 2017). People here scoffed at the low value of those picks, and then the very GM they praised kept trading down to get them back, losing a dirt-cheap, young, starting center and more in the process. 

Also if "it didn't make sense to add weapons this past offseason," then why did he outbid the $16m/year offers for both Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins (both of whom turned him down to take less money on a team not run by Maccagnan, just like Cousins and Norwell also did in March). His reputation around the league must be even lower than previously leaked earlier this offseason. Anyway it seems some defend anything he does or doesn't do; he was unsuccessful in signing an expensive WR and it's to his credit; had he been successful in signing Robinson/Watkins, that would have been to his credit, too. Basically anything he does or doesn't do, some will rationalize as shrewdness after the fact, even if it wasn't his intention lol.

Anyway these later selections (rd 3 isn't even late) are the ones that make a talent evaluator good, not drafting the highest-floor player available with #6 overall picks; picks themselves earned by crappy rosters having crappy seasons. It's as though a healthy percentage of fans are willing to simply erase his first 3 years of massive lost-investment opportunity.

Also at least one of the glorious "building blocks" mentioned in the OP, Leo, will ultimately prove to be a worse investment than a free agent by next year (a FA who won't cost a #6 overall pick); thus negating the value of the selection itself, because Leo's compensation is about to rise into the $15-20m/year range.

There are only 2 real values with such a high draft pick:

1. pick up a player that rarely becomes available via free agency, if at all, like a stud QB, a good young LT, and a good young edge rusher.

2. pick up a player whose clone maybe is available via free agency, but they're so expensive they take away from positions elsewhere. This value is only realized if the team is a serious contender during the first 4 years of his career, while playing under a relatively cheap rookie contract that saves some $10m/year over a comparable veteran's cost.

The crazy thing is from his first 3 full drafts the only player he took in the first 2 rounds who even met this obvious standard (at the time they were drafted) is historical bust Christian Hackenberg who, while always 100% healthy throughout his 2 years here, couldn't outperform the likes of Fitzpatrick during a meltdown, Geno Smith, Josh McCown, or Bryce Petty. And having this as his ace in the hole is the reason he passed up the offer to move up to #1 for a FQB in 2016. 

That's this boob's real record as a college talent evaluator. Having his back up against the wall as the singular motivation for moving up to #3 for a QB (or lose your job) is no great feat: there isn't a person in his position that would have stayed at #6 at the time, to let division rival Buffalo leapfrog us and place a 4th potential QB landing spot ahead of us. Never mind that it turns out he wasn't even the one who did the negotiating, and that we wouldn't have needed to move up in the first place if he didn't add just enough veterans during a season where his goal was to tank for a QB in the following year's draft. A Colts offer was put before him, and all he did was say "ok" when his one and only mandate for the entire draft was drafting a FQB. 

Lastly, here's the problem with crediting him with pickups like McLendon. As a GM he "saved" about $3m/year by downgrading from Snacks in his veteran prime (what he'd have cost when Macc arrived) to McLendon in his early 30s, and the strength of our DL went along with it. Then he blew more than this entire 3-year savings on another year of Ryan Fitzpatrick. Also such credit, even if you consider this a success, ignores a far greater amount of failure veteran contracts awarded to Mo, Fitz, Forte, Jarvis Jenkins, and more. I could fill another 10 pages with concrete examples of his gross incompetence.

Maccagnan is really good at absolutely nothing. It's baffling why anybody would choose to defend his atrocious record, and why he holds any appeal to any Jets fan.

IMO we miss out on FAs because of not having a QB. Wasn’t Elflein graded out as like the 30th ranked center? I wanted us to take him too especially since Stewart hasn’t worked out but I’m not sure I’m upset about it at this point. To me OL are the players I’d rather target in FA because their play doesn’t generally decline as sharply. I also think it takes a while for OL to develop, I can understand wanting to target other areas.

 

To your overall point, I’d much rather try to justify moves our GM makes. Doesn’t really do me much good to complain about it.

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On 7/31/2018 at 5:47 PM, Beerfish said:

Totally ignored the offensive line in the draft.

No pass rushers.

No real weapons for the Qb that other teams will have to game plan for.

He has a lot of work to do.  I'd like to see him operate with a real coach though.  The defense has let this team down and the guy responsible for it is the head coach.

Haven't actually had a  2017 5-11 team play any games, much less real ones, in 2018. In the words of Winston Wolf,not time to start sucking each other's private parts just yet. And objectively should scare the living daylights out of any sensible GM to put his franchise rookie QB behind this OL. 

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2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Been here for four years but only the second year of the rebuild. Haha what?!

He has 3 years behind him, he's starting his 4th year.  You're just going to pass by the original question that I already answered and beat to death part this? 

10-6, 5-11 & 5-11 = 4 years???

Haha what? Forget it.  I answered the question of when he should be liable and could be fired but you'd rather argue over how long  he's been here.  4 years and another year is 6, got it

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45 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

IMO we miss out on FAs because of not having a QB. Wasn’t Elflein graded out as like the 30th ranked center? I wanted us to take him too especially since Stewart hasn’t worked out but I’m not sure I’m upset about it at this point. To me OL are the players I’d rather target in FA because their play doesn’t generally decline as sharply. I also think it takes a while for OL to develop, I can understand wanting to target other areas.

 

To your overall point, I’d much rather try to justify moves our GM makes. Doesn’t really do me much good to complain about it.

Only if you take PFF’s rankings as gospel. Minnesota is pretty happy with him.

I’m seeing the post you quoted now on my phone (originally made it on a big widescreen so it didn’t seem as long). And **** I can talk. I owe you for even reading it, to the point where you responded. Kudos. ;) 

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7 hours ago, rangerous said:

i don't know.  maybe sperm will do some background analysis instead of using ad hominem attacks on mac or trotting out anecdotal stories as many of us fans do.  at some point the drafts will be judged.  right now his first one hasn't turned out so hot and the hackenberg saga really dragged down the second one.  getting darnold was a very good move and it looks like adams and maye are going to be real keepers.  the problem is that he needs to get about 10 new players each season just to keep ahead of attrition and they aren't all going to be camp fodder types.

imo this is a big season for mac's draft picks to really start paying dividends.

Thanks, I'm really just curious as to how Macc stands up to the rest of the league's GMs. Obviously, pointing out that Idzik was a horrible GM is easy, but generally, when it comes to judging drafts, hindsight is definitely 20/20

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13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So why didn't he draft a center instead of trading down 5 slots to pick up a late round pick (used on a nutcase driving the wrong way in the Lincoln Tunnel)? Never mind that it was done some 2 months after releasing Mangold, with only $2.7m RFA Wes Johnson in place. Ask the Vikings if they'd trade their 2nd year starting center, making all of $1m/year for the next 3 years, for Stewart, whose roster spot may only be saved temporarily by getting suspended for the first 2 games. The next 3 years of Elflein will cost the same amount as last year's Wes Johnson debacle.

So it's never the "right move" to pass up cheap, young, talented OLmen at a position of need, to pick up a low-percentage draft pick (that we only needed to recoup because his idiotic+bust UFA pickups in 2016 negated a few compensatory picks for 2017). People here scoffed at the low value of those picks, and then the very GM they praised kept trading down to get them back, losing a dirt-cheap, young, starting center and more in the process. 

Also if "it didn't make sense to add weapons this past offseason," then why did he outbid the $16m/year offers for both Allen Robinson and Sammy Watkins (both of whom turned him down to take less money on a team not run by Maccagnan, just like Cousins and Norwell also did in March). His reputation around the league must be even lower than previously leaked earlier this offseason. Anyway it seems some defend anything he does or doesn't do; he was unsuccessful in signing an expensive WR and it's to his credit; had he been successful in signing Robinson/Watkins, that would have been to his credit, too. Basically anything he does or doesn't do, some will rationalize as shrewdness after the fact, even if it wasn't his intention lol.

Anyway these later selections (rd 3 isn't even late) are the ones that make a talent evaluator good, not drafting the highest-floor player available with #6 overall picks; picks themselves earned by crappy rosters having crappy seasons. It's as though a healthy percentage of fans are willing to simply erase his first 3 years of massive lost-investment opportunity.

Also at least one of the glorious "building blocks" mentioned in the OP, Leo, will ultimately prove to be a worse investment than a free agent by next year (a FA who won't cost a #6 overall pick); thus negating the value of the selection itself, because Leo's compensation is about to rise into the $15-20m/year range.

There are only 2 real values with such a high draft pick:

1. pick up a player that rarely becomes available via free agency, if at all, like a stud QB, a good young LT, and a good young edge rusher.

2. pick up a player whose clone maybe is available via free agency, but they're so expensive they take away from positions elsewhere. This value is only realized if the team is a serious contender during the first 4 years of his career, while playing under a relatively cheap rookie contract that saves some $10m/year over a comparable veteran's cost.

The crazy thing is from his first 3 full drafts the only player he took in the first 2 rounds who even met this obvious standard (at the time they were drafted) is historical bust Christian Hackenberg who, while always 100% healthy throughout his 2 years here, couldn't outperform the likes of Fitzpatrick during a meltdown, Geno Smith, Josh McCown, or Bryce Petty. And having this as his ace in the hole is the reason he passed up the offer to move up to #1 for a FQB in 2016. 

That's this boob's real record as a college talent evaluator. Having his back up against the wall as the singular motivation for moving up to #3 for a QB (or lose your job) is no great feat: there isn't a person in his position that would have stayed at #6 at the time, to let division rival Buffalo leapfrog us and place a 4th potential QB landing spot ahead of us. Never mind that it turns out he wasn't even the one who did the negotiating, and that we wouldn't have needed to move up in the first place if he didn't add just enough veterans during a season where his goal was to tank for a QB in the following year's draft. A Colts offer was put before him, and all he did was say "ok" when his one and only mandate for the entire draft was drafting a FQB. 

Lastly, here's the problem with crediting him with pickups like McLendon. As a GM he "saved" about $3m/year by downgrading from Snacks in his veteran prime (what he'd have cost when Macc arrived) to McLendon in his early 30s, and the strength of our DL went along with it. Then he blew more than this entire 3-year savings on another year of Ryan Fitzpatrick. Also such credit, even if you consider this a success, ignores a far greater amount of failure veteran contracts awarded to Mo, Fitz, Forte, Jarvis Jenkins, and more. I could fill another 10 pages with concrete examples of his gross incompetence.

Maccagnan is really good at absolutely nothing. It's baffling why anybody would choose to defend his atrocious record, and why he holds any appeal to any Jets fan.

I’ll settle for pepto bismol. 

 

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6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

He has 3 years behind him, he's starting his 4th year.  You're just going to pass by the original question that I already answered and beat to death part this? 

10-6, 5-11 & 5-11 = 4 years???

Haha what? Forget it.  I answered the question of when he should be liable and could be fired but you'd rather argue over how long  he's been here.  4 years and another year is 6, got it

Again, this is fourth offseason. You said he could finally be judged after this year so that would judging his fifth season, going into his sixth offseason, which is when we could finally get a real GM in here? Cool. I’m not going to argue semantics. I think he should have been fired after last year. Bowles too. Three years and no playoffs given the parity in the league is abysmal. They aren’t going this year either. 4 years and zero playoff trips and another season below .500 and he should definitely be fired. He’s already wasted a ton of money his first three offseasons, why should he get 100 million to play with next year. What has he accomplished or done to keep the job?

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7 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Again, this is fourth offseason. You said he could finally be judged after this year so that would judging his fifth season, going into his sixth offseason, which is when we could finally get a real GM in here? Cool. I’m not going to argue semantics. I think he should have been fired after last year. Bowles too. Three years and no playoffs given the parity in the league is abysmal. They aren’t going this year either. 4 years and zero playoff trips and another season below .500 and he should definitely be fired. He’s already wasted a ton of money his first three offseasons, why should he get 100 million to play with next year. What has he accomplished or done to keep the job?

No owner is going to fire a GM after two seasons of dumping out and totally rebuilding.  Never going to happen.   Team should have been in the playoffs in his first season, 10 wins is usually more than enough.  One almost in and rebuilding.  Not getting fired, too soon IMO.  It's time to put up though, time to show progress. 

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12 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

No owner is going to fire a GM after two seasons of dumping out and totally rebuilding.  Never going to happen.   Team should have been in the playoffs in his first season, 10 wins is usually more than enough.  One almost in and rebuilding.  Not getting fired, too soon IMO.  It's time to put up though, time to show progress. 

It’s been three seasons this is his fourth. GMs can be fired after three failed seasons. Most are. 

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15 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You said judge after this year. So we’d be judging next year which would be season 5 going into offseason 6. My math is fine. Macc is not. 

Why don't you wait until after this season to critique basically year 2 of the Jets true rebuild EVER. How you can ignore Woodys infactuation with resigning Revis & wanting to pretend to contend against the Patriots is beyond me. 

Its early but the 2018 draft has a chance to be good one. Darnold has a chance to be our 1st franchise QB since Namath. Shepard looks good, Herndon has a chance, Nickerson is making plays, Cannon is stretching the edge, Adams & Lee are showing leadership & growing. The free agent signings of Trumaine, Avery, Crowell, the trade for Anderson, are moves that might work out. Jones, Sterling, Hansen, are making plays early in camp. 

I choose to be optimistic regarding the direction of these team I've been following since our only Super Bowl. 

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2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It’s been three seasons this is his fourth. GMs can be fired after three failed seasons. Most are. 

We 1.  He hasn't had 3 failed seasons.  He had one good season when he was exec of year and should have made the playoffs and now is in the middle of a rebuild.

2. Teams don't usually fire a GM after 3 seasons and under these circumstances.  Wasn't happening.

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17 hours ago, rangerous said:

i don't know.  maybe sperm will do some background analysis instead of using ad hominem attacks on mac or trotting out anecdotal stories as many of us fans do.  at some point the drafts will be judged.  right now his first one hasn't turned out so hot and the hackenberg saga really dragged down the second one.  getting darnold was a very good move and it looks like adams and maye are going to be real keepers.  the problem is that he needs to get about 10 new players each season just to keep ahead of attrition and they aren't all going to be camp fodder types.

imo this is a big season for mac's draft picks to really start paying dividends.

I did an analysis a while back showing that since mac took over the NY jets put the least amount of draft resources into the offensive line of any team in the league.  For a team that knew they were going to draft a young franchise qb sooner or later this is a mortal sin.

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2 hours ago, Jetster said:

Why don't you wait until after this season to critique basically year 2 of the Jets true rebuild EVER. How you can ignore Woodys infactuation with resigning Revis & wanting to pretend to contend against the Patriots is beyond me. 

Its early but the 2018 draft has a chance to be good one. Darnold has a chance to be our 1st franchise QB since Namath. Shepard looks good, Herndon has a chance, Nickerson is making plays, Cannon is stretching the edge, Adams & Lee are showing leadership & growing. The free agent signings of Trumaine, Avery, Crowell, the trade for Anderson, are moves that might work out. Jones, Sterling, Hansen, are making plays early in camp. 

I choose to be optimistic regarding the direction of these team I've been following since our only Super Bowl. 

It’s camp. Everyone looks good at camp. Let’s wait until they play real games and against real teams trying to win. I don’t buy the BS of it’s only the the second year. He made choices. They failed. He hasn’t gotten better. It’s time to move on based on the mounting evidence that he just doesn’t get it. 

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

We 1.  He hasn't had 3 failed seasons.  He had one good season when he was exec of year and should have made the playoffs and now is in the middle of a rebuild.

2. Teams don't usually fire a GM after 3 seasons and under these circumstances.  Wasn't happening.

3 years no playoffs = 3 failed years. 

Teams fire their GMs all the time after 3 seasons. What circumstances? It’s ludicrous we’re hitching our wagons to this person who cannot put a winning team on the field. 

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1 minute ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It’s camp. Everyone looks good at camp. Let’s wait until they play real games and against real teams trying to win. I don’t buy the BS of it’s only the the second year. He made choices. They failed. He hasn’t gotten better. It’s time to move on based on the mounting evidence that he just doesn’t get it. 

3 years no playoffs = 3 failed years. 

Teams fire their GMs all the time after 3 seasons. What circumstances? It’s ludicrous we’re hitching our wagons to this person who cannot put a winning team on the field. 

I get it.  You want him fired in the middle or start of a rebuild.  Before it's complete.  So a new GM, who may or may not know WTF he's doing can come in and year or down and start over with players, HC and staff. A ludicrous recipe for success.  I don't see a lot of successful teams the at operate this way.  You do, fine we have different opinions.  Does it really needed to be beat to death?    

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43 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It’s camp. Everyone looks good at camp. Let’s wait until they play real games and against real teams trying to win. I don’t buy the BS of it’s only the the second year. He made choices. They failed. He hasn’t gotten better. It’s time to move on based on the mounting evidence that he just doesn’t get it. 

3 years no playoffs = 3 failed years. 

Teams fire their GMs all the time after 3 seasons. What circumstances? It’s ludicrous we’re hitching our wagons to this person who cannot put a winning team on the field. 

He traded for Marshall, signed Revis & Cro, signed Forte, resigned Mo (which many Jet fans wanted, NOT ME, and I stated it over & over, curious to see where you stood on the Mo contract?), all of these guys were older bandaids added to the team to be somewhat competitive. Last year, in the offseason we FINALLY ripped off all the bandaids. Every free agent signed was of the younger variety or in their prime. Sorry if you don't agree this is year 2 of the 1st EVER true Jets rebuild, but I've followed them my whole life & it's a 1st for me that I'm witnessing as a fan.

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20 hours ago, Paradis said:

Much of this is common speak for the blind supporters who insist on taking an "All or nothing" approach to Macc's approval rating....

and I say that coming from a place where I think Macc is a GOOD gm... I really do think he runs the business end of this sport well. He makes good decisions on the whole, FA is handled...OK, maybe some more love at skill positions, but i'm not losing sleep over it... The players we've cut, have retired or scked balls.

...The draft though. Call it what it is -- a blatant weakness. There are ways to make improvements here if he's open to bringing in support at that level. Lots of teams employ an Aaron Wolfe of sorts who help make draft decisions.

  • We have every right to blow off Anderson. Macc had nothing to do with that, other than say "Fine" when some scouting people/personnel department said, we want to sign this guy (along with 25 other UDFAs/FAs that summer).
  • Macc took all thinking out of the equation with picks like Leo and Jamal... the one he did have to make a decision on? That would be the Lee's, Hackenbergs, Smiths, etc... not a great record. taking Todd Gurley over Williams would have shown some spine/balls. You tell me who moves the needle more on the field for us, who shows up in the win column, adding more dlineman for the sake of redundancy, or drafting one of, if not THE best running back in the NFL right now.... so spare me the "savy" move taking Williams. That was easy peasy chicken sh*t choice IMO
  • And of course he had to trade up for #3... that wasn't even an option to stay put. Anyone was going to leapfrog us. That was just a business decision.

Its ok to say he has had issue with drafting... and not mean that you hate him.

I agree that his picks have not been consistently good (although 2017 and 2018 could turn out to be pretty good).  But your refusal to give him any credit for any moves that work out well looks, frankly, silly.  If you are going to blame him for everything else, he deserves credit for Anderson.  It's that simple.  You can't cherry pick.  He's the GM.  Do you think any free agent is getting signed without his involvement?  And even if he just said okay, you would be blaming him if he just said okay to some of the bad draft picks.

Also, would it kill you to acknowledge that maybe he deserves some credit for trading up to 3, without giving up a second 1?  It may turn out to be the best trade in franchise history.  And you just want to say that any idiot would have done it and it simply was a "business decision."  If you were willing to give him even the slightest credit when he doesn't screw something up it would be a little easier to take you seriously on this stuff.  But instead it looks like you just hate the guy and nothing he could do could ever be right in your eyes.  

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7 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

No owner is going to fire a GM after two seasons of dumping out and totally rebuilding.  Never going to happen.   Team should have been in the playoffs in his first season, 10 wins is usually more than enough.  One almost in and rebuilding.  Not getting fired, too soon IMO.  It's time to put up though, time to show progress. 

?

Did you just start watching football in 2015? The owner of the team you follow did precisely that after the 2014 season, not two years but one year after a fully salary dump season in 2013. This isn't even ancient history or from some team no one here follows lol.

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Did you just start watching football in 2015? The owner of the team you follow did precisely that after the 2014 season, not two years but one year after a fully salary dump season in 2013. This isn't even ancient history or from some team no one here follows lol.

Do you honestly think this is the same situation as it was in 2015 with Idzik? Not even close. 

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9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

?

Did you just start watching football in 2015? The owner of the team you follow did precisely that after the 2014 season, not two years but one year after a fully salary dump season in 2013. This isn't even ancient history or from some team no one here follows lol.

Do you want to compare Idzik with Rex, who should have been shown the door a year earlier with Macc & Bowles?  Two failed drafts and not one winning season isnt the same as someone who has had two teams out of three overachieve.  Never said it never happens, doesnt usually happen and isnt usually a solid plan.

Can anyone do math, two years here. LOL  

We get it, you hate him.  Cant stand him and have been complaining for years.  

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

Do you want to compare Idzik with Rex, who should have been shown the door a year earlier with Macc & Bowles?  Two failed drafts and not one winning season isnt the same as someone who has had two teams out of three overachieve.  Never said it never happens, doesnt usually happen and isnt usually a solid plan.

Can anyone do math, two years here. LOL  

We get it, you hate him.  Cant stand him and have been complaining for years.  

You said no one would fire a GM 2 years after a roster dump. As in after only 2 years. The owner of the Jets did it after only one year, with the most recent GM fired.

Nice try at deflection but my post had nothing to do with hating or loving anyone. It's that your additional rationalization for keeping him is based on an easily provable, outright false statement.

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Call it luck, good fortune, smart planning, or a bit of all three, but Mac drafted the hands down best QB prospect starting with the 6th pick in the draft without giving up a first and only one pick next year. He has also drafted or 'lucked' into Jamal and Leo; some of the later round picks are starting to stick; his last few FA signings seem pretty good (signed #1CB 2 years in a row :-) ); his UDFA signing are pretty good, and he made some good trades (Sheldon etc). He also went on a required spending spree a few years back and yet he still has cap space now and for the forceable future.

You may not like him (frankly I am not sold on him), but he took and old fading team with bad drafting the previous 4+ years and turned them into a young hungry team with much better depth moving in the right direction. My guess is that he is safe for a while and his wins overshadow his losses; Yeah he whiffed on Lee (IMO) and although it is worth a shot whiffed on Hack (the real problem wasn't the whiff, but that he panicked and picked him 2 rounds too soon). 

GMs are judged more on the team than on the record. The team isn't great (or whole), but he has a core group that is good. Ask yourself this, would a good/great HC who only wanted to be coach (not GM) be willing to come to this team? If you asked 2 years ago, the answer would have to be no. This year, especially with Sam, the answer would be yes (again IMO). Also, you don't normally fire your GM right after he drafts your franchise QB; you normally do it before.

If you ask me, the one on the hot seat is Bowels. He has no excuse for not winning this year and playoffs next year. The secondary and DL are strong. You have some decent WRs and Sam. Teams got to start wining at some point or he is gone. I would have given Mac a 2 year extension after the draft - can alway pay it off if someone better comes around.

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13 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Do you honestly think this is the same situation as it was in 2015 with Idzik? Not even close. 

I think he (and Bowles) deserved to get fired after 2017. It was 3 years in and the team was no better than when he took it over. It was a low-talent, low-win roster with a bunch of cap room and current or long-term holes at multiple key positions: QB, EDGE, LT, C, CB1, CB2. But a new HC and GM could have picked guys at those positions that matched what they were looking for.

LT we have for another year, and he's just meh. C is a crap shoot but he's still a clear downgrade from what the Jets had been used to for 20 years. CB1 is probably here for 2 years (more likely than not he'll get cut after that) and CB2 is here for just 1 year. This is the great "foundation" we've got after a big-spending offseason and 3 years of foundation-building before that.

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19 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Call it luck, good fortune, smart planning, or a bit of all three, but Mac drafted the hands down best QB prospect starting with the 6th pick in the draft without giving up a first and only one pick next year. He has also drafted or 'lucked' into Jamal and Leo; some of the later round picks are starting to stick; his last few FA signings seem pretty good (signed #1CB 2 years in a row :-) ); his UDFA signing are pretty good, and he made some good trades (Sheldon etc). He also went on a required spending spree a few years back and yet he still has cap space now and for the forceable future.

You may not like him (frankly I am not sold on him), but he took and old fading team with bad drafting the previous 4+ years and turned them into a young hungry team with much better depth moving in the right direction. My guess is that he is safe for a while and his wins overshadow his losses; Yeah he whiffed on Lee (IMO) and although it is worth a shot whiffed on Hack (the real problem wasn't the whiff, but that he panicked and picked him 2 rounds too soon). 

GMs are judged more on the team than on the record. The team isn't great (or whole), but he has a core group that is good. Ask yourself this, would a good/great HC who only wanted to be coach (not GM) be willing to come to this team? If you asked 2 years ago, the answer would have to be no. This year, especially with Sam, the answer would be yes (again IMO). Also, you don't normally fire your GM right after he drafts your franchise QB; you normally do it before.

If you ask me, the one on the hot seat is Bowels. He has no excuse for not winning this year and playoffs next year. The secondary and DL are strong. You have some decent WRs and Sam. Teams got to start wining at some point or he is gone. I would have given Mac a 2 year extension after the draft - can alway pay it off if someone better comes around.

They should both be on the hot seat. And if you like moving up to #3 without giving up another 1st rounder, then thank Heimerdinger since he's the one who did the negotiating not Maccagnan. Maccagnan merely said "ok" after the former got the compensation worked out (when he had zero choice but to prevent a 4th presumed QB-destination from leapfrogging the Jets even if it was another 1st rounder). Not to mention he was dumping 2017 and did a piss poor job of it: he had the perfect opportunity and expectation to commit the year to Hackenberg, which would have assured a #3 pick or higher without coughing up a trio of 2nd rounders. 

In terms of "normally" you speak of, with his free agent and draft record - especially at QB where he's a laughingstock - a team wouldn't "normally" let him draft another QB with a high pick. You fire him first, not after.

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1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think he (and Bowles) deserved to get fired after 2017. It was 3 years in and the team was no better than when he took it over. It was a low-talent, low-win roster with a bunch of cap room and current or long-term holes at multiple key positions: QB, EDGE, LT, C, CB1, CB2. But a new HC and GM could have picked guys at those positions that matched what they were looking for.

LT we have for another year, and he's just meh. C is a crap shoot but he's still a clear downgrade from what the Jets had been used to for 20 years. CB1 is probably here for 2 years (more likely than not he'll get cut after that) and CB2 is here for just 1 year. This is the great "foundation" we've got after a big-spending offseason and 3 years of foundation-building before that.

Doesn't make sense to fire them after one season where the plan clearly changed. If you can't see that it did then I don't know what to tell ya. But it's obvious ownership changed it's thinking and went in a different direction the start of last year. 

Within two years of that "new plan", he's been able to purge the roster and get younger across the board, get us a top QB in the draft, change the culture of the team, and has the team in position to have another year with the most cap money to spend. 

And because Long is a downgrade from Mangold, it's not a good move? Give me a break. You're not gonna be able to place all pros all over the team. This team is in the best position it has in a while. Get on board Spermy. 

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Haters will hate. Whether you are a fan or not, no GM does everything himself. Part of being successful needs to be building a team you can believe in and giving them the freedom to do good work, and then backing that good work. I don't think I have seen anyone on this site say, "well he didn't do it, one of his guys did, so let's no blame him". Comments, like 'he got lucky', or 'someone else gets the credit while he gets the blame', or alike all point to someone interpreting facts to fit their claim instead of letting facts guide them. Either way, whether he set up the trade or not, I can guarantee you that he knew what was going and approved it. Also, I wasn't explaining why I think he is good, but more why I think he is safe for a while. Also, GMs and Coaches don't normally tank and with the hatred the Jets seem to get in the league, had they done it, the NFL would step in (or at least whined like babies). And they knew exactly how bad Hack was - no need to let him play and hold back the growth of the WRs. Finally, as with many on this site, you are confusing the role of the GM with the role of HC. Only way he could have forced Bowels to play Hack would have been to release the other two. Also, it is hard to out tank Cleveland. Tanking would have only sped up his chances to get booted...

As for you second comment, you made my point for me. If he was on the hot seat, he would likely would have been gone already. Drafting Sam isn't going to hurt his case. Neither is he recent FA signings.

 

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I agree that his picks have not been consistently good (although 2017 and 2018 could turn out to be pretty good).  But your refusal to give him any credit for any moves that work out well looks, frankly, silly.  If you are going to blame him for everything else, he deserves credit for Anderson.  It's that simple.  You can't cherry pick.  He's the GM.  Do you think any free agent is getting signed without his involvement?  And even if he just said okay, you would be blaming him if he just said okay to some of the bad draft picks.
Also, would it kill you to acknowledge that maybe he deserves some credit for trading up to 3, without giving up a second 1?  It may turn out to be the best trade in franchise history.  And you just want to say that any idiot would have done it and it simply was a "business decision."  If you were willing to give him even the slightest credit when he doesn't screw something up it would be a little easier to take you seriously on this stuff.  But instead it looks like you just hate the guy and nothing he could do could ever be right in your eyes.  


Dude, I opened the post by saying I think he’s a good GM. and I closed it by saying it’s ok to be critical of his draft history and not be hater. I thought that was pretty clear.

I could stand to be less dramatic in my verbiage, sure. The move up to 3 was a business decision. 100%. Need to not get leapfrogged b/c we were such an obvious landing spot for a QB. It’s what a competent GM should do, and why he’s getting paid millions. Otherwise, why wouldn’t you be a candidate for the job?

He needs to stop taking Hackenbergs and Stewarts in the middle rounds if he’s going to shed this label. And you’ll never convince me (without physical proof) than he gets a pat on the back for Anderson. Never. His participation on that on was signing off on a sheet with Anderson’s and 20 other UDFA free agents name. The credit there is so small it’s negligible to the point of this topic. He didn’t watch Anderson tape. He didn’t select him in the draft or handpick him in any way to my knowledge. That one deserves to be dealt to whomever in the scouting room banged the table.


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