Mike Maccagnan has built a Jets team he can believe in

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Bruce Harper said:

I agree that his picks have not been consistently good (although 2017 and 2018 could turn out to be pretty good).  But your refusal to give him any credit for any moves that work out well looks, frankly, silly.  If you are going to blame him for everything else, he deserves credit for Anderson.  It's that simple.  You can't cherry pick.  He's the GM.  Do you think any free agent is getting signed without his involvement?  And even if he just said okay, you would be blaming him if he just said okay to some of the bad draft picks.

Also, would it kill you to acknowledge that maybe he deserves some credit for trading up to 3, without giving up a second 1?  It may turn out to be the best trade in franchise history.  And you just want to say that any idiot would have done it and it simply was a "business decision."  If you were willing to give him even the slightest credit when he doesn't screw something up it would be a little easier to take you seriously on this stuff.  But instead it looks like you just hate the guy and nothing he could do could ever be right in your eyes.  

The trade to 3 was the only move Macc has made that wasn’t a no brainer or already proven to be a flop—and no, robbie  “dart throw” Anderson does not count.

He earned another year to see if Darnold is the man. Having Bowles as HC however is like trying to swim in the Olympics with a 45 lb plate strapped to your neck. I wouldn’t cry if Bowles is axed after this year and Macc gets a shot to bring in his own HC. Bowles doesn’t even know how timeouts work. He is at the top of his profession. That’s like a math professor not understanding basic arithmetic.

[Bruce Harper]

54 minutes ago, Paradis said:

 

Dude, I opened the post by saying I think he’s a good GM. and I closed it by saying it’s ok to be critical of his draft history and not be hater. I thought that was pretty clear.

I could stand to be less dramatic in my verbiage, sure. The move up to 3 was a business decision. 100%. Need to not get leapfrogged b/c we were such an obvious landing spot for a QB. It’s what a competent GM should do, and why he’s getting paid millions. Otherwise, why wouldn’t you be a candidate for the job?

He needs to stop taking Hackenbergs and Stewarts in the middle rounds if he’s going to shed this label. And you’ll never convince me (without physical proof) than he gets a pat on the back for Anderson. Never. His participation on that on was signing off on a sheet with Anderson’s and 20 other UDFA free agents name. The credit there is so small it’s negligible to the point of this topic. He didn’t watch Anderson tape. He didn’t select him in the draft or handpick him in any way to my knowledge. That one deserves to be dealt to whomever in the scouting room banged the table.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Points all well taken.  But I'm inclined to give him some credit for Anderson, as the buck stops with him.  If he rubber-stamped a free agent who turned out to be an Aaron Hernandez type he would get blame for that so I will also give him credit for a free agent that he may not have scouted.  And, for all we know, he did scout him.  I'm not going to assume that he didn't without some knowledge on that point.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You said no one would fire a GM 2 years after a roster dump. As in after only 2 years. The owner of the Jets did it after only one year, with the most recent GM fired.

Nice try at deflection but my post had nothing to do with hating or loving anyone. It's that your additional rationalization for keeping him is based on an easily provable, outright false statement.

hate to say this again, Idzik was here two years.  

And no deflection.  

Additional rationalization?  One, hes not nearly as bad as you spew on about over and over and over again in much too many words?  LOL.  He was exec of the year in year 1 when the team over achieved to 10 wins and were in playoff contention the entire year. Right about the time the mega thread of how lucky we are to have him.  And Bowles

Had a lousy year two when vets dogged it. Very true. Blame him if you want.

He then got rid of all of them.  His team was said to have one of the worst rosters in the NFL, maybe ever.  Historically bad offense, etc.  Lucky to win 2 or 3.  Won 5 with 3 left before his QB went down.  His teams won more than predicted 2 of 3 seasons but he has no idea what hes doing.  Seems like people are optimistic over this years players.  The entire organization is buzzing over a FQB.  No he doesnt lose credit for the trade and the pick because you feel like it.  Just like he gets credit for some like Anderson.  Is he a HOF GM?  Nope.  Is he Idzik, NOPE.  Theres a lot of leeway in between thats more than acceptable and maybe better than the unknown youre ready to dump out for.  My opinion, nothing more.  

We dont agree because I want to see him a little longer and you want to blow it up.  Good for you, hopefully it doesnt need to happen. If it does we move on and wait another 3 years  

 

[rangerous]

7 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I did an analysis a while back showing that since mac took over the NY jets put the least amount of draft resources into the offensive line of any team in the league.  For a team that knew they were going to draft a young franchise qb sooner or later this is a mortal sin.

yep but what i think we really need is a comparison between mac's draft performance and what the other gm's are doing.  sperm has brought up numerous good examples of where mac hasn't made the best move but at the same time they are more anecdotal than actually showing a failed gm.

obviously we all want mac to do well.  i don't think it's in the jets' best interests to have a revolving door at gm and coach but at the same time at some point they either need to fish or cut bait.  we've seen 4 drafts and this will be season 4 of on field play.  something tangible has to be shown this year.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

hate to say this again, Idzik was here two years.  

And no deflection.  

Additional rationalization?  One, hes not nearly as bad as you spew on about over and over and over again in much too many words?  LOL.  He was exec of the year in year 1 when the team over achieved to 10 wins and were in playoff contention the entire year. Right about the time the mega thread of how lucky we are to have him.  And Bowles

Had a lousy year two when vets dogged it. Very true. Blame him if you want.

He then got rid of all of them.  His team was said to have one of the worst rosters in the NFL, maybe ever.  Historically bad offense, etc.  Lucky to win 2 or 3.  Won 5 with 3 left before his QB went down.  His teams won more than predicted 2 of 3 seasons but he has no idea what hes doing.  Seems like people are optimistic over this years players.  The entire organization is buzzing over a FQB.  No he doesnt lose credit for the trade and the pick because you feel like it.  Just like he gets credit for some like Anderson.  Is he a HOF GM?  Nope.  Is he Idzik, NOPE.  Theres a lot of leeway in between thats more than acceptable and maybe better than the unknown youre ready to dump out for.  My opinion, nothing more.  

We dont agree because I want to see him a little longer and you want to blow it up.  Good for you, hopefully it doesnt need to happen. If it does we move on and wait another 3 years  

 

another question is; has mac and bowles learned from their past failures?  if it's clear they both have then it's not such an easy choice to launch either or both.  but as for waiting 3 more seasons, we saw what can happen with parcells.  bring in that guy and the team will turn around in short order.

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, rangerous said:

yep but what i think we really need is a comparison between mac's draft performance and what the other gm's are doing.  sperm has brought up numerous good examples of where mac hasn't made the best move but at the same time they are more anecdotal than actually showing a failed gm.

obviously we all want mac to do well.  i don't think it's in the jets' best interests to have a revolving door at gm and coach but at the same time at some point they either need to fish or cut bait.  we've seen 4 drafts and this will be season 4 of on field play.  something tangible has to be shown this year.

Anecdotal?  What the **** is the scientific evidence of a failed GM?  5-11 record is all I can think of.  These aren't anecdotes.  They are evidence of errors and mistakes in judgement in the decisions which a GM should make - contracts, roster moves, draft picks.  Please tell me: What method is there to show a failed GM there is beyond "anecdotal" evidence?

I am not in favor of dumping Maccagnan.  I like the recent draft compared to the others and I am hopeful that some of his boom/bust late round projects (Jones and Clark) might pan out.  Still, the idea that we don't have evidence that he has not been very good at his job boggles my mind.

[rangerous]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Anecdotal?  What the **** is the scientific evidence of a failed GM?  5-11 record is all I can think of.  These aren't anecdotes.  They are evidence of errors and mistakes in judgement in the decisions which a GM should make - contracts, roster moves, draft picks.  Please tell me: What method is there to show a failed GM there is beyond "anecdotal" evidence?

I am not in favor of dumping Maccagnan.  I like the recent draft compared to the others and I am hopeful that some of his boom/bust late round projects (Jones and Clark) might pan out.  Still, the idea that we don't have evidence that he has not been very good at his job boggles my mind.

the anecdotes i refer to are when specific trades or draft picks are used to justify the criticism.  i would rather see mac compared over a number of categories to other gm's. team record is a major indication but it is also largely beyond the control of the gm, especially since bowles doesn't answer to mac directly.  if the hierarchy was different then mac would take a bigger hit for team record.  and don't forget he got a coach of the year largely because the team record in 2015 even though, in hindsight, many of the player moves were foolish.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, rangerous said:

the anecdotes i refer to are when specific trades or draft picks are used to justify the criticism.  i would rather see mac compared over a number of categories to other gm's. team record is a major indication but it is also largely beyond the control of the gm, especially since bowles doesn't answer to mac directly.  if the hierarchy was different then mac would take a bigger hit for team record.  and don't forget he got a coach of the year largely because the team record in 2015 even though, in hindsight, many of the player moves were foolish.

What categories?  

I typed a long response and deleted it, but if you think these complaints only arose in hindsight you had your head in the sand.  

[RESNewYork]

I'm a fan that does not want to see Mac or Bowles fired at this point. 

Bowles gets most of the hate on this board but Mac should be thanking Bowles for getting an extension after last season. Not the other way around.

[jgb]

7 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I get it.  You want him fired in the middle or start of a rebuild.  Before it's complete.  So a new GM, who may or may not know WTF he's doing can come in and year or down and start over with players, HC and staff. A ludicrous recipe for success.  I don't see a lot of successful teams the at operate this way.  You do, fine we have different opinions.  Does it really needed to be beat to death?    

Here you go again with a really poor argument. Successful teams don’t have to fire their GMs at all because... they are successful! A better argument would be to show that other unsuccessful teams don’t fire their GMs after a couple years... but of course they do exactly that—including these very jets with idzik.

You make so many other good points not sure why you keep hanging this loose thread out there.

[dbatesman]

4 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

Do you honestly think this is the same situation as it was in 2015 with Idzik? Not even close. 

When Idzik made the team bad on purpose, it was Bad. When Maccc did it, it was Good

[#27TheDominator]

16 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

When Idzik made the team bad on purpose, it was Bad. When Maccc did it, it was Good

That is because Idzik started his rebuild too soon.  He should have waited until year 3!

[Jet Nut]

33 minutes ago, jgb said:

Here you go again with a really poor argument. Successful teams don’t have to fire their GMs at all because... they are successful! A better argument would be to show that other unsuccessful teams don’t fire their GMs after a couple years... but of course they do exactly that—including these very jets with idzik.

You make so many other good points not sure why you keep hanging this loose thread out there.

OK then show me all the unsuccessful teams, in full rebuild who fired their GM and ultimately their HC.  

My only point is we need to see this through another year to see if his rebuild is working towards success or is he spinning his wheels.  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

OK then show me all the unsuccessful teams, in full rebuild who fired their GM and ultimately their HC.  

My only point is we need to see this through another year to see if his rebuild is working towards success or is he spinning his wheels.  

Slow down there. It’s your argument, you support it. Then I will or will not retort. That’s how this works.

[Philc1]

80% of Mac's draft picks have been straight up horrible (Smith, Mauldin, Hack, Petty).  15% mediocre (Jenkins, Shell, Adams). 5% succesful (Leo, Robby (not a pick but I will give him the benefit)

 

If Darnold pans out which I think he will it won't matter

[Philc1]

If Urban Meyer is out at Ohio St where will Mike Macagnan get his horrible Wide Receivers and Linebackers from?

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 hours ago, dbatesman said:

When Idzik made the team bad on purpose, it was Bad. When Maccc did it, it was Good

Biggggg Maccccc: greatest GM or greatest-est GM?

[Sperm Edwards]

6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

hate to say this again, Idzik was here two years.  

And no deflection.  

Additional rationalization?  One, hes not nearly as bad as you spew on about over and over and over again in much too many words?  LOL.  He was exec of the year in year 1 when the team over achieved to 10 wins and were in playoff contention the entire year. Right about the time the mega thread of how lucky we are to have him.  And Bowles

Had a lousy year two when vets dogged it. Very true. Blame him if you want.

He then got rid of all of them.  His team was said to have one of the worst rosters in the NFL, maybe ever.  Historically bad offense, etc.  Lucky to win 2 or 3.  Won 5 with 3 left before his QB went down.  His teams won more than predicted 2 of 3 seasons but he has no idea what hes doing.  Seems like people are optimistic over this years players.  The entire organization is buzzing over a FQB.  No he doesnt lose credit for the trade and the pick because you feel like it.  Just like he gets credit for some like Anderson.  Is he a HOF GM?  Nope.  Is he Idzik, NOPE.  Theres a lot of leeway in between thats more than acceptable and maybe better than the unknown youre ready to dump out for.  My opinion, nothing more.  

We dont agree because I want to see him a little longer and you want to blow it up.  Good for you, hopefully it doesnt need to happen. If it does we move on and wait another 3 years  

 

He was fired 1 year after cleaning house. Deservedly so, but that is the fact: 2013 was a pure purge year and then he was fired after the 2014 season.

I don’t understand for the life of me why you want to see more of a guy with a track record of 90% failure (and not minor failure at that). What is it you love about him? His only qualification for the job in the first place was being a scout in Houston and he stinks at drafting. He has literally no other qualifications for the position.

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

Doesn't make sense to fire them after one season where the plan clearly changed. If you can't see that it did then I don't know what to tell ya. But it's obvious ownership changed it's thinking and went in a different direction the start of last year. 

Within two years of that "new plan", he's been able to purge the roster and get younger across the board, get us a top QB in the draft, change the culture of the team, and has the team in position to have another year with the most cap money to spend. 

And because Long is a downgrade from Mangold, it's not a good move? Give me a break. You're not gonna be able to place all pros all over the team. This team is in the best position it has in a while. Get on board Spermy. 

It always makes sense to fire someone who is demonstrably terrible at his job, and who has a glaring weakness in his only qualification for being awarded the job in the first place. 

Put words in my mouth all you want; Long was fine to pick up (in comparision to going with WJ for another season), but not nearly the best move he could have made at the position for 2 offseasons. He’s just ok. It’s like people want to ignore and conveniently forget that his hand-picked successor to Mangold was Wes Johnson, or he’d have drafted a center in 2017. 

[Larz]

Yeah but 

It feels like Maccagnan cleaned up a mess, made his own mess, and now is cleaning it up again. 

This draft class shows some promise 

If they can draft a pass rusher next year and use the cap putting pieces around Darnold the Jets could be competitive for years 

 

[joewilly12]

I miss this type of Jets offense.  @SAR I  Hoping Mike Maccagnan can build an offense and Todd Bowles can coach one.

 

[Jet Nut]

46 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He was fired 1 year after cleaning house. Deservedly so, but that is the fact: 2013 was a pure purge year and then he was fired after the 2014 season.

I don’t understand for the life of me why you want to see more of a guy with a track record of 90% failure (and not minor failure at that). What is it you love about him? His only qualification for the job in the first place was being a scout in Houston and he stinks at drafting. He has literally no other qualifications for the position.

Yeah, 90% failure.  Did you work this formula out on your own?  And not minor, but major?  Because a 90%fail rate would be anything other than major? LOL come on

Kind of like accusing me of loving the guy when I keep saying over and over that he needs to put up now.  I said it before, will say it again all your overworded posts say you hate the guy and will twist anything to rip him  Fine, why is it youre trying to convince me to join your cause.  Sorry, I think you dont really get it.  On any level.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Yeah, 90% failure.  Did you work this formula out on your own?  And not minor, but major?  Because a 90%fail rate would be anything other than major? LOL come on

Kind of like accusing me of loving the guy when I keep saying over and over that he needs to put up now.  I said it before, will say it again all your overworded posts say you hate the guy and will twist anything to rip him  Fine, why is it youre trying to convince me to join your cause.  Sorry, I think you dont really get it.  On any level.

Look at the quite incomplete fail list and try to think of 1 resounding success for every 8-10 of those. Then factor in over 3 wasted seasons so far.

Also:

 

[Paradis]

8 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

Points all well taken.  But I'm inclined to give him some credit for Anderson, as the buck stops with him.  If he rubber-stamped a free agent who turned out to be an Aaron Hernandez type he would get blame for that so I will also give him credit for a free agent that he may not have scouted.  And, for all we know, he did scout him.  I'm not going to assume that he didn't without some knowledge on that point.

fair enough. I guess in the end, if he and his team are doing a great job with UDFAs, then that's a good thing. What my ire surrounds is those key picks in rnds 2-5... those are really key rounds for a team do more than just play the average. If you're hitting on a few those, then it really fleshes the roster out. The rest is whatever, I get the rnd 1 picks. But dude's got to start hitting in those rounds.

[David Harris]

Mac got a franchise QB - GM for life!!!

 

first one in 50 years- he single handedly made it happen by pushing all his chips in...and it paid off. No one else made that happen for the jets in my lifetime.  It cahanges everything. Drafts will be so much easier now that position is set for a decade. Let Mac see these seeds grow.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, David Harris said:

single handedly made it happen by pushing all his chips in

What the **** does this even mean.

[Bruce Harper]

8 hours ago, Paradis said:

fair enough. I guess in the end, if he and his team are doing a great job with UDFAs, then that's a good thing. What my ire surrounds is those key picks in rnds 2-5... those are really key rounds for a team do more than just play the average. If you're hitting on a few those, then it really fleshes the roster out. The rest is whatever, I get the rnd 1 picks. But dude's got to start hitting in those rounds.

Agreed.  I'm encouraged so far this year (I'm a glass half-full type of guy) and 2017 may be looking a bit better too, I hope. 

[Jetster]

The problem here on Jetnation is you can't commend Macc for anything without being skewered by the Macc haters. I hate repeating myself but without a QB, GMs are forced to be somewhat competitive or your immediately fired, ala Idzik.

Because of the HORRIFIC drafting from 2009 until Idzik was fired Macc had to find ways to bring in some talent. Hence, the Marshall trade. Then, he had to spend all that money, hence you end up with Revis, Cro, Skrine, Gilchrist, then Forte. 

Fans here make it seem like just because there is a player in free agency that you want, i.e. Norwell or Jensen, that these same players are pining to come to NY and play for the lowly Jets with a 39 year old QB. 

I'll say it AGAIN. this is the 2nd year of the rebuild! He traded 3 second rounders & got us a guy that just turned 21 and may have been the best QB in the draft. I don't give a f*ck that some of you say he got lucky & that the Browns are idiots, the fact is, Macc got us Sam Darnold! Plus, so far this 2018 draft after Sam looks good, and his drafts seem to be getting better each year. The NY Jets actually seem to be settling into something called CONTINUITY, a term that could never be used for this organization in the past. 

So, with a ton of money to spend in 2019, still retaining our 1st round pick & getting the QB we wanted, let's see how things play out over the next 8 months. With Darnold in place NOW you'll see more interest from free agent skill players. And if this defense performs like I think it will, Macc will only need some minor tweaks & hopefully can land a pass rusher in the offseason, or in the 2019 draft. 

I know there are some Jet fans on this site that literally get pleasure out of predicting misery, and probably indiscreetly enjoy seeing the Jets fail. But speaking for myself, this is the most excited I've been since the 1998 season, and that was with Vinnie at the helm, not a fresh faced phenom that just turned 21 getting ready to soon take over this team as its future leader at QB. Let the good times roll.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Criticizing what are clearly mistakes does not mean you are negative about every move Mac makes. Nor does it mean one good move suddenly make him a good gm and everyone who ever criticized him is wrong. It’s pretty simple minded to take a “he’s a good gm” or “bad gm” approach on a move by move basis. 

His overall body of work is pretty mixed. He’s drafted some good players, but they tend to play in positions where it’s easier to find comparable players on the free agent market. He ignores drafting positions that are very expensive or impossible to find in free agency. 

He also has a hardon for linebackers who are athletic stiffs or who are undersized. 

This past draft is the first one i’m very excited about not only because of Darnold, but he actually took guys who perform well athletically and who have college production. Could be a cornerstone for us to actually build upon. 

Also stop with the second year of rebuild sh*t. This is rebuild number two because plan A was so bad he had to blow it up again. 

[Jetster]

6 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Criticizing what are clearly mistakes does not mean you are negative about every move Mac makes. Nor does it mean one good move suddenly make him a good gm and everyone who ever criticized him is wrong. It’s pretty simple minded to take a “he’s a good gm” or “bad gm” approach on a move by move basis. 

His overall body of work is pretty mixed. He’s drafted some good players, but they tend to play in positions where it’s easier to find comparable players on the free agent market. He ignores drafting positions that are very expensive or impossible to find in free agency. 

He also has a hardon for linebackers who are athletic stiffs or who are undersized. 

This past draft is the first one i’m very excited about not only because of Darnold, but he actually took guys who perform well athletically and who have college production. Could be a cornerstone for us to actually build upon. 

Also stop with the second year of rebuild sh*t. This is rebuild number two because plan A was so bad he had to blow it up again. 

If you think plan A was to start by resigning Revis to a mega contract, you certainly don't know Woody (Tebow) Johnson. Give me a break! 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Jetster said:

If you think plan A was to start by resigning Revis to a mega contract, you certainly don't know Woody (Tebow) Johnson. Give me a break! 

You don't know him either if you think that 2015, and only 2015, was the year Woody Johnson force-fed specific players onto the team. 

Macc knew Woody liked him and wanted to impress his boss by outbidding New England. Also he wanted to show up his predecessor by blasting through the cap $ saved up the past 2 years, blowing a great chance at an earlier rebuild in the process. It's doubtful he didn't get some of this advice from his own mentor Casserly to not save cap room for the guy who's going to replace you after you fail. But to many, these past years never really happened. Time actually began in March of 2018 lol.

Tebow literally everyone directly connected with the team at the time said then and still says now was Tannenbaum's idea (after whiffing on Manning), who then bounced it off Rex when he thought he could get him for a mid-rounder before pulling the trigger. The chain of events didn't go Elway to Woody to see if he wanted Tebow, nor Woody bypassing his GM to call Elway directly. The pressers and stuff I'm sure Woody had a part in once he was on the team, but there's never been any credible leak, beyond fan conspiracy theory, of a command coming down from the GM's boss to do this. 

Every GM under Woody (up to and including Maccagnan) has attested the same thing: even if/when he's in the room all the time (and it's on him that the Jets have that dumbass setup of separately hiring GM and HC himself), but he's always let his GMs sign whom they want and not sign whom they don't want. 

Woody sucks, but these GMs have made their own beds with their own decisions.

[Bowles Movement]

21 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

Doesn't make sense to fire them after one season where the plan clearly changed. If you can't see that it did then I don't know what to tell ya. But it's obvious ownership changed it's thinking and went in a different direction the start of last year. 

 

And because Long is a downgrade from Mangold, it's not a good move? Give me a break. You're not gonna be able to place all pros all over the team. This team is in the best position it has in a while. Get on board Spermy. 

With that thinking we should never sign another free agent cornerback cause they’ll never be better than Revis

[RutgersJetFan]

12 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

why is it youre trying to convince me to join your cause.  

Membership fees.

[dbatesman]

14 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Biggggg Maccccc: greatest GM or greatest-est GM?

Executive of Every Year

[David Harris]

13 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

What the **** does this even mean.

Mac had a vision for drafting a QB in the 2018 draft. He did all he could to tank 2017 as the GM.  Cut a bunch of mediocre vets while scouting the hell out of every college QB.

then he traded away THREE 2nd round picks in an almost unprecedented aggressive blind trade to a spot to obtain a franchise QB.

If Sam Darnold is what we think he is then Mac is single handedly the best GM in the history of the franchise. 

Tanking 2017, aggressive trade up = pushing all his chips in.