Quick Observations (WSH)

[Matt39]

Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

I'd switch my point now if I were you too.  

As far as your NFL eye test, since you were clearly wrong about him in college, it is fairly obvious that your eye test is missing everything else about Defensive line play other than QB sack stats.

Hardly switching my point. As an interior defensive lineman to be picked that high, his college production never stood out that much. He wasn't a dominant player at USC, didn't jump out at the combine and is now struggling getting to the QB in the NFL. There isnt much nuance to this, either get to the QB or get paid by someone else.

[KRL]

35 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

 

 

Love these film breakdowns, they allow you to see growth of Darnold that

doesn't show up in "stats"

[Philc1]

5 minutes ago, KRL said:

Love these film breakdowns, they allow you to see growth of Darnold that

doesn't show up in "stats"

His 3rd down conversions on the second drive were excellent.  

[Philc1]

6 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Hardly switching my point. As an interior defensive lineman to be picked that high, his college production never stood out that much. He wasn't a dominant player at USC, didn't jump out at the combine and is now struggling getting to the QB in the NFL. There isnt much nuance to this, either get to the QB or get paid by someone else.

Williams is ok.  He’s very overrated by jets fans same way Mo was

[Greenseed4]

8 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Hardly switching my point. As an interior defensive lineman to be picked that high, his college production never stood out that much. He wasn't a dominant player at USC, didn't jump out at the combine and is now struggling getting to the QB in the NFL. There isnt much nuance to this, either get to the QB or get paid by someone else.

I thought he looked AMAZING at the combine. Men that large shouldn’t move that effortlessly. 

[HawkeyeJet]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Hardly switching my point. As an interior defensive lineman to be picked that high, his college production never stood out that much. He wasn't a dominant player at USC, didn't jump out at the combine and is now struggling getting to the QB in the NFL. There isnt much nuance to this, either get to the QB or get paid by someone else.

There is so much ignorance in this one post.  If you don't think he dominated at USC, no one should value your evaluation of anything related to college football.

[Matt39]

Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

There is so much ignorance in this one post.  If you don't think he dominated at USC, no one should value your evaluation of anything related to college football.

ruined my weekend.

[HawkeyeJet]

6 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Williams is ok.  He’s very overrated by jets fans same way Mo was

I'd argue he's underrated by most Jets fans because they only value the sack statistic.

[Philc1]

Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

I'd argue he's underrated by most Jets fans because they only value the sack statistic.

How on earth is Leo underrated?  He’s a decent run stuffing DE in a 3-4.  In his defense the LBs behind him like Lee are horrible but I just don’t see how Leo is considered this great specimen of defensive line play

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I'd argue he's underrated by most Jets fans because they only value the sack statistic.

Probably because you can find run stuffing DT's in Canadien box factories.

[Warfish]

36 minutes ago, thshadow said:

For those saying that Darnold "stunk" - which of his plays were actually bad?

Apart from one poster (Joe W. Namath), who else said he stunk?

He didn't stink for the record.

Quote

- The INT was definitely a bad play.  I think he just didn't see the underneath guy - which is the kind of mistake that good experienced QBs don't make.  I'd like to see the all-22 to see what his other options were.  But that was probably the worst play he's made in a pre-season game (with the 2nd worst being the near-INT from game 1).

Fair.

Quote

- Early on, that throw-away play - that wasn't a good play, but it was a good decision.  I don't know about you, but I've often found myself screaming at our clueless QBs to throw the ball away (when it's not 3rd or 4th down).  He showed situational awareness, and didn't try to do too much.

Fair.  And yes, his situational awareness and decision making has generally been quite solid.

Quote

- For the "dink and dunk" complaints.  To me, dink and dunk is take a 7 step drop, scan the field, and then check down to your running back because you don't think you can throw anyone open. That's what Chad did.  If instead you take a 3 to 5 step drop, make a quick decision, and gain 5 to 10 yards - well, that's the play design, executed well.  Plus - how was he on 3rd down conversions?  I don't know the stat, but I think it was a very high conversion rate.  The main dink and dunk thing that drives all of us crazy is the 5 yard completion on 3rd and 7.  But did that happen?  The only time I remember *that* happening was the play before the INT, when maybe Anderson ran his curl too short.

Yes, it happened. 

But that aside, dink and dunk is generally the phrase used whenever the offense appears incapable of throwing the ball further than say, 8 yards, through the air.  We can certainly discuss possible/likely causation, the horrid O-line, the inability of Jets skill players to get open deeper, and Darnold making decisions to throw short or to his check down instead of trying to stretch the field, and of course, Coaches mandates on what Darnold should/shouldn't do that only they know.

The end result is a "dink and dunk" low yards/low AvPA/low QB rating generally unproductive performance, regardless of cause.  In reality all these factors likely played a material role in that outcome, but the outcome is what it is really.

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, KRL said:

I'll re-watch the game tonight after work but just off the top of my head:

- Sluggish effort in all phases as it seemed a week of travel, practices and fights
carried over to the game

- A very soft defensive effort which allowed too many yards.  The good thing was they were
able to tighten up in the red zone and only give up FG's

- There was no pressure from the standard pass rush and Bowles didn't seem to dial up
many/any blitzes.  The run defense was ok but there were mistakes that allowed a couple
of big runs (Darron Lee got washed out on one big gainer)

- The tackling was nowhere near as clean as the ATL game and there were way too many
personal fouls.  Frankie Luvu has to clean up his technique, he brings the kind of
effort you want in applying pressure but you can't give up multiple personal fouls

- Avery Williamson, Doug Middleton, Jordan Jenkins and for the first time as a Jet
Rashard Robinson flashed

- Offensively Bates worked around a banged up OLine and tried not to expose them and
the QB's by keeping the passing game short & quick.  They allowed pressure though as WSH
got Jonotthan Harrison to whiff on one sack and forced Sam Darnold into another sack due
to coverage.  There was no consistent movement in the run game, the starters need to get
healthy and back into the lineup

- Sam Darnold impressed me more in this game than the ATL one.  He struggled in his first drive
with a three and out then recovered in his next two to move the ball into scoring territory.
In addition playing behind a makeshift OLine with pressure coming, he never seemed rattled.
He made good decisions with the ball and even the INT wasn't a bad play.  On 4th down I
want my QB taking a shot at extending the drive rather than throwing the ball out of bounds
as one analyst suggested.  They do realize that if you don't get the first down the ball is
being "turned over" anyway?  Darnold also improved getting the team in and out of the huddle as
he was able to get to the line with 12-15 seconds left on the clock 

- Teddy Bridgewater played well and hopefully continues to increase his value.  Considering
the pressure he was under he showed good mobility in the pocket and his usual accuracy.
Bridgewater's INT was bad because WSH CB had the vertical route covered he should have thrown
a back shoulder   

Even more impressive to me on Darnold was his post game comments where he was critical and analytical of himself, and explained all of his mistakes and areas he needs to improve on. He forced the ball and knew he had because it was 4th down. He talked about throwing the ball and away and living for another down, but how that was not an option there. Tons of people will once again think Bridgewater was better but that is not the case. Our third string OL did much better against their 3rd string defense. BRW played well dont get me wrong, but Darnold already shows subtleties to his game that BRW, the veteran, does not have. If I am the Jets I am even more impressed with Darnold than they were before the game. His learning capacity and ability to process information seems unbounded. I also think the team was tired and flat from all the work and travel during the week which led to the bad performance.

[Drums]

44 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Nate Shepherd looked good other than that our defense is going to be really, really bad this season

 

 

thanks Todd!

Based on...? Cause they absolutely DOMINATED the Falcons, a much better offense. They played like sh*t last night, for sure, but truth be told, we have no idea what they're going to look like week 1. They might be good, they might be bad. One thing is for sure, haven't let up a TD yet, so that's nice. 

[thshadow]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The end result is a "dink and dunk" low yards/low AvPA/low QB rating generally unproductive performance, regardless of cause.  In reality all these factors likely played a material role in that outcome, but the outcome is what it is really.

I think that's true, but mainly I'm optimistic that it will improve.  He definitely didn't have a reputation from college as a game manager - if anything the opposite, I think.  So it doesn't trouble me that he's showing this part of his game, and it's very likely  due to external factors (mainly what the coaches are trying to do).

 

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, thshadow said:

I think that's true, but mainly I'm optimistic that it will improve.

I am optimistic Darnold will improve.

I have less optimism regarding the O-Line and our skill position talent.

Quote

He definitely didn't have a reputation from college as a game manager - if anything the opposite, I think.  So it doesn't trouble me that he's showing this part of his game, and it's very likely  due to external factors (mainly what the coaches are trying to do).

I don't think we've seen anything yet to call "bothersome" tbqh.  No flashing warning signs as yet.

There is a big difference between wanting him to sit a bit because I think he could use the time/isn't quite ready, and being worried or concerned about him.  Thus far, nothing material has emerged to be worried/concerned about with Darnold.  He's just very green at the pro level game.  Although with that said, he's shown some flashes of truly high quality ability and decision making, which are very good signs.

[Hael]

Williams is a very good, but not great DL.  It's been that way since he got here.  However, he has been getting steadily better, he seems like a good locker room presence (unlike loafing Mo) and he's the type of young player you typically want to pay.   A lot of what he does is dirty work and his real value is somewhat hidden.  If he asks for Aaron Donald money, you don't pay him, but you do if he asks for say top 5-10 DT money.

That said, he is not Geno Atkins either.  He doesn't have the same burst, or the strong hands to disengage blockers, which is why he frequently gets solid push but can't ever quite finish.

 

[kelly]

3 hours ago, CM28 said:

Thanks for an excellent write up as usual KRL!

agreed !.. thanx for a Great write-up  ?

[Doggin94it]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

My own views: 

-O-Line is horrible, one of the weakest and least talented units in the NFL.  Period stop, this unit sucks.  Again.

-Darnold was ok, at best, no matter how much flowery language some folks want to lay on his performance.  Looked like what he is, a very green, quite unready-to-start-yet, rookie QB with a literal ton of potential but needing time to learn the pro game.  He was Chad Pennington reborn last night, dink, dunk, dink, dunk, oops INT.  And yes, that INT was all him (stop making excuses ffs, being honest doesn't make you dislike the kid).  People flogging his play are living in a fantasy world of affectation, not fact.  They desperately WANT him to start, so they'll see what they want to see, not what is real. 

We have a potentially great future QB who is not ready...yet. 

And it might be literally criminal to put him with no-talent Offensive unit just to get him beat up every week while "learning" Tim-Couch-Cleveland-style.

The dink and dunk thing is directly related to the OL problems.  We're missing 40% of our starting OL and we were playing a team with a very good interior line and OLB passrushers in Allen, Payne, Kerrigan and Smith - of course they were going to emphasize the short game.

[ZachEY]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

My own views: 

-O-Line is horrible, one of the weakest and least talented units in the NFL.  Period stop, this unit sucks.  Again.

-RB is very weak, especially now with injuries/non-players.  I don't see production from this unit, especially with Bowles "focus" on being a running team first and foremost.

 -Jets have almost no pass rush to speak of.  Thoroughly unimpressive Defensive front.

-Coach Charlie Weiss on Sirius NFL said it best this morning "Robby Anderson is not a #1".  For us, he is, for anyone else, lol, no.

 -Darnold was ok, at best, no matter how much flowery language some folks want to lay on his performance.  Looked like what he is, a very green, quite unready-to-start-yet, rookie QB with a literal ton of potential but needing time to learn the pro game.  He was Chad Pennington reborn last night, dink, dunk, dink, dunk, oops INT.  And yes, that INT was all him (stop making excuses ffs, being honest doesn't make you dislike the kid).  People flogging his play are living in a fantasy world of affectation, not fact.  They desperately WANT him to start, so they'll see what they want to see, not what is real.  

 -Teddy Bridgewater thus far is materially the best QB on our roster.  Which won't matter because the team and 90% of the fans desperately want him traded asap and the Jets to roll with two QB's, Darnold and McCown (who apparently needs no work of any kind nowadays).

 -The Jets absolute horrible drafting history of the last decade has really come home to roost, we are deeply weak almost across the board at positions where we've invested a ton of draft capital.  D-Line.  Linebacker.  Safety, none are above average even right now.  The O-line is in shambles.  RB is a collection of depth players at best.  WR too a collection of injured players, overreaching players, and disappointing draft picks (where WAS Hanson and Stewart last night?).

 -I like Bert-Toilet.  His name amuses me.  My absolute favorite new kicker (and he looks good too, a bonus).

Put simply, we are a materially below average team in terms of talent and skill position players.  

We have a potentially great future QB who is not ready...yet. 

And it might be literally criminal to put him with no-talent Offensive unit just to get him beat up every week while "learning" Tim-Couch-Cleveland-style.

 And I'll say what I've said alot over the past few years:  we focus far too much on drafting Defense, and it's paid literally zero dividends.  Macc (and the regimes before him) are simply bad at drafting, and it's obvious.  This team needs a huge infusion of actual, legitimate, skill position and O-line talent asap.  Not another reach defensive lineman from Appalachian Barber College Macc falls in love with.

 This is going to be a long year.

I agree with most of this - but I think it's a bit unfair to Darnold.  You're right, the lovefest is a bit extreme, but so is the pennington comparison.  If you're going to destroy the Oline, as you did, and rightfully so, I think you can give Darnold a pass at worst or benefit of the doubt at best, for checking down frequently.  The guy would get destroyed well before anything would open up downfield.

The fact that our huge investment in defense is not paying dividends at all is disastrous.  Lee is garbage and Williams and Adams are okay.

This is going to be a long year, but hopefully a different kind, as we watch Darnold grow into a real QB, the likes of which we haven't had since Namath.  There's reason for hope - but yeah, we're not good.

[ZachEY]

3 hours ago, BroadwayRay said:

Tell that to Cimini.

Tell Cimini it was 4th down... you don't get to kick a FG by throwing it away.

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I agree with most of this - but I think it's a bit unfair to Darnold.  You're right, the lovefest is a bit extreme, but so is the pennington comparison.  If you're going to destroy the Oline, as you did, and rightfully so, I think you can give Darnold a pass at worst or benefit of the doubt at best, for checking down frequently.  The guy would get destroyed well before anything would open up downfield.

The fact that our huge investment in defense is not paying dividends at all is disastrous.  Lee is garbage and Williams and Adams are okay.

This is going to be a long year, but hopefully a different kind, as we watch Darnold grow into a real QB, the likes of which we haven't had since Namath.  There's reason for hope - but yeah, we're not good.

All fair. 

And I've made some of those points (like the O-line and weak skill position play as factors) in other posts.

[k-met57]

the INT was pretty bad even for a forced throw....

[HawkeyeJet]

It surprises how many people are rustled about the check downs.  I have seen a slew of ex-players, scouts, coaches etc praising him for those decisions last night.

Come on here and it's anarchy.

[jbt]

7 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

the INT was pretty bad even for a forced throw....

he was not expecting 22 to be there, he was covering the back and made a good play.  he will learn

[Matt39]

29 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I agree with most of this - but I think it's a bit unfair to Darnold.  You're right, the lovefest is a bit extreme, but so is the pennington comparison.  If you're going to destroy the Oline, as you did, and rightfully so, I think you can give Darnold a pass at worst or benefit of the doubt at best, for checking down frequently.  The guy would get destroyed well before anything would open up downfield.

The fact that our huge investment in defense is not paying dividends at all is disastrous.  Lee is garbage and Williams and Adams are okay.

This is going to be a long year, but hopefully a different kind, as we watch Darnold grow into a real QB, the likes of which we haven't had since Namath.  There's reason for hope - but yeah, we're not good.

Lee is really bad and it wouldnt shock me if he's on the roster bubble in a few weeks. Adams and Williams are like you said- they're ok. But each being the 6th overall pick and you're getting essentially baseline level production from both, you need more than that especially from a non-premium position to justify using that high of a pick. And then the mid level picks have most been forgettable. Jordan Jenkins seems to be the most promising and his upside is Calvin Pace. The two receivers from last year are being outplayed by castoffs like Trey Mcbride(who?) and Charles Johnson.

[thshadow]

29 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

IThis is going to be a long year, but hopefully a different kind, as we watch Darnold grow into a real QB, the likes of which we haven't had since Namath.  There's reason for hope - but yeah, we're not good.

I agree with this.  The thing that I think people are most homer-ific about is actually the prospects of the team overall, as well as the defense.  What the heck does our secondary have a nickname for??

[Lupz27]

38 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

the INT was pretty bad even for a forced throw....

Ok it’s 4th down if he takes the sack it’s a turnover, if it’s incompl it’s a turnover, as you can see there is a free rusher barring down on him from both his right, and from the middle, what would you have him do here?  NOBODY is open on the play, the only chance Darnold has is to force a bullet to his receiver he threw to hoping to get it there before the Safety (who made a hell of a play, his responsibility was to cover Powell out of the backfield, and when he saw him stay in and block he made a B line to the partially open area where Darnold ended up HAVING to throw the ball), and his guy being able to make the catch in tight coverage, the play was a failure before it started Bowles said it himself the playcall was bad, and gave the offense no chance to succeed in that situation.

[HelenOfTroy]

3 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Hardly switching my point. As an interior defensive lineman to be picked that high, his college production never stood out that much. He wasn't a dominant player at USC, didn't jump out at the combine and is now struggling getting to the QB in the NFL. There isnt much nuance to this, either get to the QB or get paid by someone else.

You don't know what you're talking about.  Really.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, HelenOfTroy said:

You don't know what you're talking about.  Really.

How many career sacks does Leonard Williams have?

[HelenOfTroy]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

How many career sacks does Leonard Williams have?

I should have highlighted your ridiculous comment that Leo was not dominant at USC. That is just stupid, he WAS our defense....I don't care about comparisons to other college DEs or the NFL, for USC he was a force on D with not much depth due to sanctions.

Could it be his coaching in the NFL?

[JoJoTownsell1]

20 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Ok it’s 4th down if he takes the sack it’s a turnover, if it’s incompl it’s a turnover, as you can see there is a free rusher barring down on him from both his right, and from the middle, what would you have him do here?  NOBODY is open on the play, the only chance Darnold has is to force a bullet to his receiver he threw to hoping to get it there before the Safety (who made a hell of a play, his responsibility was to cover Powell out of the backfield, and when he saw him stay in and block he made a B line to the partially open area where Darnold ended up HAVING to throw the ball), and his guy being able to make the catch in tight coverage, the play was a failure before it started Bowles said it himself the playcall was bad, and gave the offense no chance to succeed in that situation.

Exactly. The pass was not a good play, INT or not. But for a rookie, it was a pretty standard mistake. He saw the defender jump inside (to cover Powell) and when Powell started to block he tracked Darnold's eyes and the nearest jet and jumped the route. Tough for Darnold to expect/see that, but a play he can't make. 

Again, it was 4th down so an INT in that spot is pretty much the same as a ball that is thrown away. He probably had a read and was hoping Kearse would fight for the ball. He was also probably looking to get rid of the ball quickly to avoid a sack (a little gun shy). 

Again, not a good play, but not a terrible play considering the down and coverage. 

[JustInFudge]

Tom Brady has literally made a career out of dinking and dunking and we're knocking Sam for perfectly executing quick pass plays that were clearly designed?

My gawd...

[jack48]

6 hours ago, KRL said:

I'll re-watch the game tonight after work but just off the top of my head:

- Sluggish effort in all phases as it seemed a week of travel, practices and fights
carried over to the game

- A very soft defensive effort which allowed too many yards.  The good thing was they were
able to tighten up in the red zone and only give up FG's

- There was no pressure from the standard pass rush and Bowles didn't seem to dial up
many/any blitzes.  The run defense was ok but there were mistakes that allowed a couple
of big runs (Darron Lee got washed out on one big gainer)

- The tackling was nowhere near as clean as the ATL game and there were way too many
personal fouls.  Frankie Luvu has to clean up his technique, he brings the kind of
effort you want in applying pressure but you can't give up multiple personal fouls

- Avery Williamson, Doug Middleton, Jordan Jenkins and for the first time as a Jet
Rashard Robinson flashed

- Offensively Bates worked around a banged up OLine and tried not to expose them and
the QB's by keeping the passing game short & quick.  They allowed pressure though as WSH
got Jonotthan Harrison to whiff on one sack and forced Sam Darnold into another sack due
to coverage.  There was no consistent movement in the run game, the starters need to get
healthy and back into the lineup

- Sam Darnold impressed me more in this game than the ATL one.  He struggled in his first drive
with a three and out then recovered in his next two to move the ball into scoring territory.
In addition playing behind a makeshift OLine with pressure coming, he never seemed rattled.
He made good decisions with the ball and even the INT wasn't a bad play.  On 4th down I
want my QB taking a shot at extending the drive rather than throwing the ball out of bounds
as one analyst suggested.  They do realize that if you don't get the first down the ball is
being "turned over" anyway?  Darnold also improved getting the team in and out of the huddle as
he was able to get to the line with 12-15 seconds left on the clock 

- Teddy Bridgewater played well and hopefully continues to increase his value.  Considering
the pressure he was under he showed good mobility in the pocket and his usual accuracy.
Bridgewater's INT was bad because WSH CB had the vertical route covered he should have thrown
a back shoulder   

Very good.  Gotta push it on 4th down.  and it was a tip drill INT. Not the same as a flat bad throw.  TB looks good.  Took a few hits, too.  OLine sucks big time.  Macc has to dig up a few late cuts vets for the line.  Preferably ones being cut for salary relief.

[ZachEY]

54 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Lee is really bad and it wouldnt shock me if he's on the roster bubble in a few weeks. Adams and Williams are like you said- they're ok. But each being the 6th overall pick and you're getting essentially baseline level production from both, you need more than that especially from a non-premium position to justify using that high of a pick. And then the mid level picks have most been forgettable. Jordan Jenkins seems to be the most promising and his upside is Calvin Pace. The two receivers from last year are being outplayed by castoffs like Trey Mcbride(who?) and Charles Johnson.

Yup - Okay at 6 is bad.

There were threads a few weeks ago extolling hansen and I got killed for saying stewart might not make the team.  Macc is fortunate to have found Robbie Anderson, otherwise the WR position would look as mismanaged as the offensive line.

[ZachEY]

49 minutes ago, thshadow said:

 I agree with this.  The thing that I think people are most homer-ific about is actually the prospects of the team overall, as well as the defense.  What the heck does our secondary have a nickname for??

Because PresidentMal loves to talk...