Interesting stats from the Jets-Giants game

[Vader]

12 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

I don't have a problem with Lee because, while he may be up and down, he DOES have good games (yes, I know he has bad games as well) and does make plays behind the LoS.  He also hasn't been playing LB for very long.  Between that and his crazy speed, there's little doubt that he can get better.

Adam is a much bigger problem.  He was a high pick and a crazy high pick for a safety.  Yet, the only thing he does well is talk.  

Adams has been all around things, and I think it’s just a matter of time with him

[bealeb319]

Lee whiffed on some plays last night too. All this Lee percolation…cool, but let’s all calm down. A first round LB needs to be a lot better. 

He was a late first round pick who was thrown out of position...is he what we wanted him to be? No. Is he a servicable player? I think so. Not every first round pick will make the pro bowl.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app

[56mehl56]

On 8/25/2018 at 11:17 AM, bealeb319 said:

Lee is a better player than the forum give him credit for. He will never be an all pro but he is At least serviceable which not every team can say about their first round picks. I think people also forget that he was a later first round pick and not a top 10 guy.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app
 

Don't bother this board looks at the round a player was drafted in , if it was the 1st and he's not producing at a HOF pace he's labeled a bust. 

I wonder how long it takes some of the trolls here to pile on Darnold after his 1st bad game. 

[bealeb319]

Don't bother this board looks at the round a player was drafted in , if it was the 1st and he's not producing at a HOF pace he's labeled a bust. 
I wonder how long it takes some of the trolls here to pile on Darnold after his 1st bad game. 

Instantly I would imagine. I am convinced half the forum are actually patriot fans trolling us it is the only way I can explain how people on here have so much love for a depth player and hatred for players who are half decent but not great. For example everyone seems to love Powell who I think is an above average change of pace back at best but they hate guys like Lee and skrine who will never be probowlers but are serviceable. They hated Kerley and he went on to have a decent season after we cut him.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app

[Creepy Lurker]

36 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Don't bother this board looks at the round a player was drafted in , if it was the 1st and he's not producing at a HOF pace he's labeled a bust. 

I wonder how long it takes some of the trolls here to pile on Darnold after his 1st bad game. 

?

Not every first round pick has to be a HOF or even a pro-bowler. Most of this board does seem to have a problem with busts/underperformers because of the last 10 years of drafting before Darnold. It’s not like this sentiment is coming out of nowhere. I mean, you’d have to be blind to not see that our 1st round draft picks (many of them top 10 picks mind you) were a disaster: 

2008: Gholston......

2009: Sanchez......

2010: Wilson.......

2011: Wilkerson- awesome player for first 5 years so this was a great pick but ended on a REALLY SOUR note so there is bitterness here despite being a great pick.

2012: Coples......

2013: Milliner......

2013: Richardson- Another good pick that ended on a sour note like Wilkerson and only lasted 4 years with us.

2014: Pryor.......

2015: Williams- solid player that needs to step up and live up to his “top rated” prospect hype. 2018 is make or break year for taking the next step. Still an above average player regardless of living up to draft status.

2016: Lee- underperforming player that has shown some flashes. Regardless of reason(scheme fit, just not good etc) 2018 is the make or break year for him to even be average which is not good based on being a 1st rounder but not what I’d consider BUST either. He may be considered a BUST after this year though so the jury is out. 

2017: Adams- Still way too early and most people think Adams is good but not worthy of draft slot and mainly blame Mac for this pick and not the player. More of a draft philosophy head scratcher. It’s still way too soon to judge Adams but there are concerns with his coverage skills. There are a lot of positives to his play too so sophomore year will be huge for him. 

2018:Darnold- I mean DARNOLD!!!! YEAH!!!!!

 

So in summary, I can’t believe you had to see this abomination to maybe realize that it’s probably not people being “trolls” or “not real fans” because we criticize the team that we clearly love. It’s being realistic and skeptical based on the lack of quality of our drafting. Consistently drafting horrible flat out busts that are out of the league, not even just JAGS. Gone forever banished to a far away place bad.

Why they hell else would we invest so much time in this crap team that doesn’t deserve it. It’s because JETS fans are TRUE fans and not front running pansies. That’s why we should come together as a fan base since it’s like a brotherhood of battered fans. 

The “real fans” that can’t see this rationale and think that we did ok at drafting the last 10 years before DARNOLD, are not being genuine at all. That’s like saying “Hackenturd is a great QB” and trying to keep a straight face. Not trying to attack you but it really rubs me the wrong way when people act like opinions/claims are completely baseless when they in fact are overwhelming. People can disagree but geez man, don’t act like an opinion has no basis when it clearly does.

End of my rant.

 

 

[56mehl56]

9 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

?

Not every first round pick has to be a HOF or even a pro-bowler. Most of this board does seem to have a problem with busts/underperformers because of the last 10 years of drafting before Darnold. It’s not like this sentiment is coming out of nowhere. I mean, you’d have to be blind to not see that our 1st round draft picks (many of them top 10 picks mind you) were a disaster: 

2008: Gholston......

2009: Sanchez......

2010: Wilson.......

2011: Wilkerson- awesome player for first 5 years so this was a great pick but ended on a REALLY SOUR note so there is bitterness here despite being a great pick.

2012: Coples......

2013: Milliner......

2013: Richardson- Another good pick that ended on a sour note like Wilkerson and only lasted 4 years with us.

2014: Pryor.......

2015: Williams- solid player that needs to step up and live up to his “top rated” prospect hype. 2018 is make or break year for taking the next step. Still an above average player regardless of living up to draft status.

2016: Lee- underperforming player that has shown some flashes. Regardless of reason(scheme fit, just not good etc) 2018 is the make or break year for him to even be average which is not good based on being a 1st rounder but not what I’d consider BUST either. He may be considered a BUST after this year though so the jury is out. 

2017: Adams- Still way too early and most people think Adams is good but not worthy of draft slot and mainly blame Mac for this pick and not the player. More of a draft philosophy head scratcher. It’s still way too soon to judge Adams but there are concerns with his coverage skills. There are a lot of positives to his play too so sophomore year will be huge for him. 

2018:Darnold- I mean DARNOLD!!!! YEAH!!!!!

 

So in summary, I can’t believe you had to see this abomination to maybe realize that it’s probably not people being “trolls” or “not real fans” because we criticize the team that we clearly love. It’s being realistic and skeptical based on the lack of quality of our drafting. Consistently drafting horrible flat out busts that are out of the league, not even just JAGS. Gone forever banished to a far away place bad.

Why they hell else would we invest so much time in this crap team that doesn’t deserve it. It’s because JETS fans are TRUE fans and not front running pansies. That’s why we should come together as a fan base since it’s like a brotherhood of battered fans. 

The “real fans” that can’t see this rationale and think that we did ok at drafting the last 10 years before DARNOLD, are not being genuine at all. That’s like saying “Hackenturd is a great QB” and trying to keep a straight face. Not trying to attack you but it really rubs me the wrong way when people act like opinions/claims are completely baseless when they in fact are overwhelming. People can disagree but geez man, don’t act like an opinion has no basis when it clearly does.

End of my rant.

 

 

I appreciate the effort , but take a look at any team's draft record.  Many here think missing on draft picks is solely a Jets thing. The draft for all intents and purposes is a crap shoot . Some teams are better at developing players and IMO that's what separates teams "good" at drafting vs teams perceived as poor at drafting.

You mention players like Wilk, Richardson, Pryor these are guys who were all highly rated. So what went wrong, is it possible that maybe its not the players but the coaching , schemes and development that this organization lacks.

Sure the Jets have had their share of bad picks , but the "trolls" and I'll stick to that word still label every Jet pick a bust w/o them having a fair share to prove themselves. Guys like Williams and Adams are solid players but because they don't put eye popping stats they are mocked and derided here by the TRUE Jets fans. 

[Creepy Lurker]

13 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I appreciate the effort , but take a look at any team's draft record.  Many here think missing on draft picks is solely a Jets thing. The draft for all intents and purposes is a crap shoot . Some teams are better at developing players and IMO that's what separates teams "good" at drafting vs teams perceived as poor at drafting.

You mention players like Wilk, Richardson, Pryor these are guys who were all highly rated. So what went wrong, is it possible that maybe its not the players but the coaching , schemes and development that this organization lacks.

Sure the Jets have had their share of bad picks , but the "trolls" and I'll stick to that word still label every Jet pick a bust w/o them having a fair share to prove themselves. Guys like Williams and Adams are solid players but because they don't put eye popping stats they are mocked and derided here by the TRUE Jets fans. 

Fair enough and I agree 100% that there are a lot of teams that do poorly with 1st round picks. Our team, is the only one that matters though.

We are def one of the worst teams in the league If not the absolute worst for that 10 year stretch which I would say justifies the skepticism/criticism of our drafting. 

I also COMPLETELY agree that a lot of it can be coaching. It’s probably a horrible combination of bad picks and bad player development tbh and I think that is the most overlooked aspect. 

I’m sure some people are complete trolls and they are just as bad as the complete homers who think the Jets can do no wrong. I’d like to believe that most of us fall in the middle and are rationale, give credit where credit is due but DROP THE HAMMER when the JETS mess up which has been very frequent over the last 10 years. I hope that makes sense. 

[ryu79]

Lee, for all his warts, is still improving as a player and is still young. And has huge potential to grow into. Fine with the pick.

[Vader]

4 hours ago, bealeb319 said:

He was a late first round pick who was thrown out of position...is he what we wanted him to be? No. Is he a servicable player? I think so. Not every first round pick will make the pro bowl.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://JetNation.com mobile app
 

doesn’t NEED probowl (tho i'd take it) but he NEEDS to not miss tackles 

[Drums]

5 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Don't bother this board looks at the round a player was drafted in , if it was the 1st and he's not producing at a HOF pace he's labeled a bust. 

I wonder how long it takes some of the trolls here to pile on Darnold after his 1st bad game. 

It's already happening a bit with the "no deep passes" craze.

[jetstream23]

For a team that has drafted numerous busts in the first round over the years I cannot complain about Maccagnan being 4 for 4 on finding starters in Round 1.  Should Lee have been a 2nd round pick? Probably. Should Adams have been taken outside the top 10? Probably.   But compared to other players we’ve drafted in Round 1 - Coples, Wilson, Pryor, Milliner, etc. these guys are gems. 

[JoJoTownsell1]

5 hours ago, ryu79 said:

Lee, for all his warts, is still improving as a player and is still young. And has huge potential to grow into. Fine with the pick.

Agreed. I doubt he will ever be a stout defender and will drive you nuts when he gets run over or beat in coverage, but he will also make a few big plays that will help you win a game. 

If he is the worst 1st round pick in Macc's career, that's a good thing. 

[dbatesman]

17 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

For a team that has drafted numerous busts in the first round over the years I cannot complain about Maccagnan being 4 for 4 on finding starters in Round 1.  Should Lee have been a 2nd round pick? Probably. Should Adams have been taken outside the top 10? Probably.   But compared to other players we’ve drafted in Round 1 - Coples, Wilson, Pryor, Milliner, etc. these guys are gems. 

This argument has never made sense to me. Drafting first-rounders who don't wash out of the league entirely is the lowest possible bar for a GM to clear.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, ryu79 said:

Lee, for all his warts, is still improving as a player and is still young. And has huge potential to grow into. Fine with the pick.

This exact same line could have been used regarding Pryor after his 2015 sophomore season. Then year 3 came along...

[Creepy Lurker]

9 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

This argument has never made sense to me. Drafting first-rounders who don't wash out of the league entirely is the lowest possible bar for a GM to clear.

It is a low bar but seems “great” compared to 2008-2014. That was some scary drafting. It’s still incomplete but none of our 1st round picks from 2015,2016 or 2017 has lived up to the hype which kinda sucks.

We “lucked” into some of those picks and meh. Leo had 3 years so we kind of know what he is and he’s the best of the bunch. Lee and Adams have a lot of work to do before they can be graded. No one has “wowed” us like we expected, more so Leo and Adams. 

[ryu79]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This exact same line could have been used regarding Pryor after his 2015 sophomore season. Then year 3 came along...

Sure, but we don't know if Lee will nosedive. If anything, it appears that he's been asked to take on the Vilma/Harris role of qbing the defense and getting team organized on field - which would indicate his influence increasing rather than disappearing as Pryor's did. 

And we should all be hoping that works out because if the kid could ever read the field better, with his athleticism it'd be quite useful for us.

[Jet9]

(most) Jets fans really are dipsh*ts. 

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, dbatesman said:

This argument has never made sense to me. Drafting first-rounders who don't wash out of the league entirely is the lowest possible bar for a GM to clear.

Yet I rattled off 4 picks without having to go to our Gholston and Blair Thomas types......so clearly we’ve employed several GMs who hit their heads on that low bar.

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, ryu79 said:

Sure, but we don't know if Lee will nosedive. If anything, it appears that he's been asked to take on the Vilma/Harris role of qbing the defense and getting team organized on field - which would indicate his influence increasing rather than disappearing as Pryor's did. 

And we should all be hoping that works out because if the kid could ever read the field better, with his athleticism it'd be quite useful for us.

Everyone hopes it works out. Even for those that think he sucks, it costs nothing ego-wise to say, “OK well he proved me wrong,” like many have said about others. 

No one doubts his speed and athleticism in general. That’ll cover up some flaws, but it won’t make him a good player. There are LBs with nowhere near his speed that went on to have long, successful careers. Conversely, Lee doesn’t yet look like he’s worth the 5th year team option. The responsibility has been passed to him in part to see if he can handle it, and also from a lack of others to hand it to, and maybe even to see if that helps make up for awareness after the ball’s snapped. Conversely it would have made no sense to give a 3rd-year safety the playcalling duties (even one who improved more from year 1 to year 2 than Lee did) by taking them away from Harris who was still starting. Fine if he does a good job calling the D, of course, but with so few mid/later picks panning out the early ones like Lee need to play up to their draft slot. 

[Greenseed4]

The list of linebackers drafted in 2016; maybe we didn’t strike gold, but we didn’t strike out:

1 (20) Darren Lee: 94 comb, 3 sack (2017); 73 comb, 1 sack (2016)

2 (33) Kevin Dodd: 7 comb, 0 sack (2017); 5 comb, 1 sack (2016) **cut, out of football

2 (34) Jaylon Smith: 81 comb, 1 sack (2017); 0 comb, 0 sack (2016)

2 (36) Myles Jack: 90 comb, 2 sacks (2017); 24 comb, 0.5 sack (2016)

2 (41) Reggie Ragland: 44 comb, 0 sacks (2017) **traded to KC

2 (52) Deion Jones: 138 comb, 1 sack (2017); 107 comb, 0 sack (2016) ** probowl

2 (53) Su’a Cravens: 34 comb, 0 sack (2016) ** out of football

 

So while it’s a weak draft class for the position, let’s not pretend like we were the only team to whiff on a pro bowler , let’s also not neglect the fact that the patriots lost a pic due to deflate gate, or that we still have our player under contract, (unlike three teams). I understand it is popular to diss our team, but our biggest mistake in this draft was not who we took. It was the position we filled, and/or choosing Lee over Jones. 

Big deal. Get over it. 

 

 

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, Greenseed4 said:

The list of linebackers drafted in 2016; maybe we didn’t strike gold, but we didn’t strike out:

1 (20) Darren Lee: 94 comb, 3 sack (2017); 73 comb, 1 sack (2016)

2 (33) Kevin Dodd: 7 comb, 0 sack (2017); 5 comb, 1 sack (2016) **cut, out of football

2 (34) Jaylon Smith: 81 comb, 1 sack (2017); 0 comb, 0 sack (2016)

2 (36) Myles Jack: 90 comb, 2 sacks (2017); 24 comb, 0.5 sack (2016)

2 (41) Reggie Ragland: 44 comb, 0 sacks (2017) **traded to KC

2 (52) Deion Jones: 138 comb, 1 sack (2017); 107 comb, 0 sack (2016) ** probowl

2 (53) Su’a Cravens: 34 comb, 0 sack (2016) ** out of football

 

So while it’s a weak draft class for the position, let’s not pretend like we were the only team to whiff on a pro bowler , let’s also not neglect the fact that the patriots lost a pic due to deflate gate, or that we still have our player under contract, (unlike three teams). I understand it is popular to diss our team, but our biggest mistake in this draft was not who we took. It was the position we filled, and/or choosing Lee over Jones. 

Big deal. Get over it. 

 

 

 

 

Why is a top 20 pick being measured up against players taken upwards of a full round later, who also play different positions, and further were drafted by teams who didn’t have outright holes at their positions? See, when a team whiffs on a LB in round 2, but takes a 1st team all pro tackle in round 1, it’s disingenuous to only focus on the latter pick. Especially when our own 2nd round pick was among the worst in NFL history.

• Dallas is more excited about Jaylon Smith than some here are with Lee, seeing as this is the first time he’s been 100% since college (which they knew when they drafted him). He had a bad knee injury and as expected he sat out his entire rookie season to heal, so listing his rookie stats is weak sauce. He wasn’t starting outright last year in part because of past injuries (he was playing with a brace all year), in part because of extended time off, and in part because Dallas just wasn’t desperate for inside help when Hitchens & Lee were healthy.
• Jack played a different position at SLB last year, and also but starts (and has been calling the plays since last year) on one of the NFL’s premiere/elite defenses. He might have put the Pats away for good by himself in the afccg if the refs didn’t blow NE’s cocks again on cue. He’s a better player than Lee. Ask Marrone if he would want a 1-to-1 trade swap and he’d laugh at you. Will be interesting to see him in games this year moving back to MLB because he was meh at it last year preseason.
• Ragland tore his ACL as a rookie, was badly miscast after Buffalo’s D changed, but KC is thrilled with him as a box SILB. He had to actually earn his starting job there, but regardless he’s a different player than Lee. He gets by with quick play diagnosis and good technique rather than relying upon elite gun-timing speed. Guards - let alone TEs or never mind FBs - don’t take him out of a play nearly as easily as they do with Lee when they get their paws on him. If Lee had Ragland’s head he might be a top 5 LB, but he doesn’t and won’t.
• Deion Jones is just better, and was there for us a full round later if we wanted him (he was the next pick after Hack).  
• Cravens is a SS and was drafted to be a SS not a LB. Though he played some at LB as a rookie he was moved back to SS full time (where Washington initially drafted him to play) for year 2, but then he quit due to concussion symptoms/concerns. Denver traded for him, and he seems to be ok now upstairs, but again he’s a safety - or at best a hybrid rover - not a strict LB like Lee so he shouldn’t even be on this list. His comparable is Adams more than Lee.

As a top 20 pick Lee should be outright better than all these 2nd round guys, since he was chosen over of all of them, and I’m not certain he’s better than half of them despite injury head starts against a couple. The only one who’d be acceptable to be outplaying him is Jack because everyone knows he only dropped due to past injuries and concerns over career length.

The thing that bugs me about the pick (as much as his meh play and some off-field signs that he may be mentally unstable) is we were in a QB-or-die mode for that draft, and the top 2 QBs taken were not only worthy, but they were both available to any team who didn’t shrink into its shell. Both were drafted by teams who traded up to get them and one is the reigning SB champ. We had the #20 pick; the Rams traded up from #15 and didn’t have a Mo Wilkerson to offer in trade. While that’s not Lee’s fault, it’s baggage that the selection carries: it’d better be worth passing up on a QB until 2 years later

Hey I get the idea that the pick could have been worse, because it sure could have, but that’s not good enough of a rationalization. Being a comparatively below-average player thus far - even if he is starting on a team thin at LB - is not a good pick. When one uses such a high pick on such a non-premium position, there is a higher expectation not only of not-busting, but of being better than average. Especially when a good amount of the rationalization was for him to be like glue on TEs due to his speed.

Hopefully he becomes way better this year. I’m not wow’d yet.

[dbatesman]

6 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Yet I rattled off 4 picks without having to go to our Gholston and Blair Thomas types......so clearly we’ve employed several GMs who hit their heads on that low bar.

Just because we’ve employed dumb GMs in the past doesn’t mean Maccagnan gets graded on a curve. Especially because the guys who drafted Thomas and Gholston also oversaw playoff teams, which is something the Executive of the Year has yet to do.

[Greenseed4]

7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Why is a top 20 pick being measured up against players taken upwards of a full round later, who also play different positions, and further were drafted by teams who didn’t have outright holes at their positions? See, when a team whiffs on a LB in round 2, but takes a 1st team all pro tackle in round 1, it’s disingenuous to only focus on the latter pick. Especially when our own 2nd round pick was among the worst in NFL history.

• Dallas is more excited about Jaylon Smith than some here are with Lee, seeing as this is the first time he’s been 100% since college (which they knew when they drafted him). He had a bad knee injury and as expected he sat out his entire rookie season to heal, so listing his rookie stats is weak sauce. He wasn’t starting outright last year in part because of past injuries (he was playing with a brace all year), in part because of extended time off, and in part because Dallas just wasn’t desperate for inside help when Hitchens & Lee were healthy.
• Jack played a different position at SLB last year, and also but starts (and has been calling the plays since last year) on one of the NFL’s premiere/elite defenses. He might have put the Pats away for good by himself in the afccg if the refs didn’t blow NE’s cocks again on cue. He’s a better player than Lee. Ask Marrone if he would want a 1-to-1 trade swap and he’d laugh at you. Will be interesting to see him in games this year moving back to MLB because he was meh at it last year preseason.
• Ragland tore his ACL as a rookie, was badly miscast after Buffalo’s D changed, but KC is thrilled with him as a box SILB. He had to actually earn his starting job there, but regardless he’s a different player than Lee. He gets by with quick play diagnosis and good technique rather than relying upon elite gun-timing speed. Guards - let alone TEs or never mind FBs - don’t take him out of a play nearly as easily as they do with Lee when they get their paws on him. If Lee had Ragland’s head he might be a top 5 LB, but he doesn’t and won’t.
• Deion Jones is just better, and was there for us a full round later if we wanted him (he was the next pick after Hack).  
• Cravens is a SS and was drafted to be a SS not a LB. Though he played some at LB as a rookie he was moved back to SS full time (where Washington initially drafted him to play) for year 2, but then he quit due to concussion symptoms/concerns. Denver traded for him, and he seems to be ok now upstairs, but again he’s a safety - or at best a hybrid rover - not a strict LB like Lee so he shouldn’t even be on this list. His comparable is Adams more than Lee.

As a top 20 pick Lee should be outright better than all these 2nd round guys, since he was chosen over of all of them, and I’m not certain he’s better than half of them despite injury head starts against a couple. The only one who’d be acceptable to be outplaying him is Jack because everyone knows he only dropped due to past injuries and concerns over career length.

The thing that bugs me about the pick (as much as his meh play and some off-field signs that he may be mentally unstable) is we were in a QB-or-die mode for that draft, and the top 2 QBs taken were not only worthy, but they were both available to any team who didn’t shrink into its shell. Both were drafted by teams who traded up to get them and one is the reigning SB champ. We had the #20 pick; the Rams traded up from #15 and didn’t have a Mo Wilkerson to offer in trade. While that’s not Lee’s fault, it’s baggage that the selection carries: it’d better be worth passing up on a QB until 2 years later

Hey I get the idea that the pick could have been worse, because it sure could have, but that’s not good enough of a rationalization. Being a comparatively below-average player thus far - even if he is starting on a team thin at LB - is not a good pick. When one uses such a high pick on such a non-premium position, there is a higher expectation not only of not-busting, but of being better than average. Especially when a good amount of the rationalization was for him to be like glue on TEs due to his speed.

Hopefully he becomes way better this year. I’m not wow’d yet.

So, what are you saying? It was a crappy draft class Sperm. At least we didn’t Paxton Lynch or Roberto Aguayo the pick.

[56mehl56]

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This exact same line could have been used regarding Pryor after his 2015 sophomore season. Then year 3 came along...

When you change HC's every two years that's what happens unfortunately. One HC has a vision for a player the next has no use for him. The Jets need to find an offensive minded HC and stick with him for 5+ years , then maybe we'll see some stability and development.

[Villain The Foe]

1

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

So, what are you saying? It was a crappy draft class Sperm. At least we didn’t Paxton Lynch or Roberto Aguayo the pick.

Lynch sucks ass, but guess what? Paxton Lynch + Deion Jones > Darron Lee + Christian Hackenberg. Best of all would be what was turned down, in light of the ensuing success of the two teams that didn’t turn down such opportunities. 

There were better classes to be sure, but there were also a lot of good players in that draft, and I just take issue with the idea that our only options were players available at our pick after sitting on our hands instead of making deals.

It also brings up a related point: players at high-value positions can fail to live up to their pre-draft hype and still be good value (e.g. LT) because it’s uncommon for better than just-ok players at those positions to reach FA. If a LT is decent but not all-that, he’s still worth the 5th yr option and fat extension(s) after that. Nate Solder, taken right around Lee’s slot, is a perfect example of this concept. Of course if a player is terrible (e.g. Hackenberg, Lynch, etc.) it doesn’t matter if he plays a high or low value position.  

In poor draft classes you go get the best prospects you can possibly get your hands on (e.g. Goff/Wentz) instead of getting too clever, worrying about theoretical value and potential 1st round busts. Because that’s what gets a scout fired (and IMO he rates prospects like he’s still a scout worried about job security, so he reaches for high floor in round 1 far more than high ceiling, even though the latter are the bigger difference-makers (when they pan out, of course). 

Drafting a kicker in round 2 is just majorly stupid no matter what, as I’m sure you’d agree, so IMO he shouldn’t enter the conversation. If you’re so desperate for a reliable kicker you’re willing to part with a 2nd, then make an offer to someone for their proven veteran. Even the priciest aren’t that expensive, there’s no bust factor, they don’t age quickly, and I’ll bet you’d get a lot of teams willing to take you up on the offer. Drafting one makes no sense. 

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

When you change HC's every two years that's what happens unfortunately. One HC has a vision for a player the next has no use for him. The Jets need to find an offensive minded HC and stick with him for 5+ years , then maybe we'll see some stability and development.

Who changes HCs every 2 years? Not the Jets.

But you’ve got the cart before the horse. Teams don’t do so poorly because they replace a HC after only 2 years; they replace a HC after only 2 years because they’re doing so poorly. Typically they deserve to get fired, and don’t magically become assets just because a team is trying to avoid appearing too fickle.

Bad is bad. They don’t become good; the best you can hope for is they become lucky, but luck doesn’t only shine upon the dopey.

[56mehl56]

53 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Who changes HCs every 2 years? Not the Jets.

But you’ve got the cart before the horse. Teams don’t do so poorly because they replace a HC after only 2 years; they replace a HC after only 2 years because they’re doing so poorly. Typically they deserve to get fired, and don’t magically become assets just because a team is trying to avoid appearing too fickle.

Bad is bad. They don’t become good; the best you can hope for is they become lucky, but luck doesn’t only shine upon the dopey.

But players picked under one GM/HC often are discarded by a new GM/HC combo as they went to implement their schemes. The Jets have had many of those over the past decade. 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

But players picked under one GM/HC often are discarded by a new GM/HC combo as they went to implement their schemes. The Jets have had many of those over the past decade. 

This isn’t a good reason.

If this is considered a serious concern then make the new hire someone who wants to put in a similar scheme (i.e. on defense don’t go from Parcells/Groh to Herm then from Herm to Mangini. Mangini to Rex was a much more seamless transition in terms of player type that would fit, but in the end none would have worked because none were good enough head coaches). 

But it’s irrelevant because the path to the superbowl will not be paved with keeping a lousy HC just because the current players are more suited to his preferred scheme(s). If you bring in the right HC to replace him, it’s still the right move because either one of two things will happen: he’ll either adapt himself to the personnel he’s inherited; or it’ll take 1-3 yrs to get the personnel he needs. In the case of the 2018 Jets, how many one-scheme-suited players were so special that it was worth retaining+extending Bowles? I can’t think of a single one.

Either way is a faster and more likely path to the SB than sticking with a bad HC. All you’re doing is putting off the inevitable. If you give the lousy HC 4 undeserved years, the eventual roster transition under his replacement would still need to occur the same as if it was done after only 2 years. Meanwhile the team doesn’t waste an extra 2 years throwing good dollars and draft picks at bad. Case in point: we’d have been better off dumping Herm after 2 years, because it was clear by then he would never coach a team to the SB.

[RESNewYork]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This isn’t a good reason.

If this is considered a serious concern then make the new hire someone who wants to put in a similar scheme (i.e. on defense don’t go from Parcells/Groh to Herm then from Herm to Mangini. Mangini to Rex was a much more seamless transition in terms of player type that would fit, but in the end non would have worked because none were good enough head coaches. 

But it’s irrelevant because the path to the superbowl will not be paved with keeping a lousy HC just because the current players are more suited to his preferred scheme(s). If you bring in the right HC to replace him, it’s still the right move because either one of two things will happen: he’ll either adapt himself to the personnel he’s inherited; or it’ll take 1-3 yrs to get the personnel he needs.

Either way is a faster and more likely path to the SB than sticking with a bad HC. All you’re doing is putting off the inevitable. If you give the lousy HC 4 undeserved years, the eventual roster transition under his replacement would still need to occur the same as if it was done after only 2 years. Meanwhile the team doesn’t waste an extra 2 years throwing good dollars and draft picks at bad. Case in point: we’d have been better off dumping Herm after 2 years, because it was clear by then he would never coach a team to the SB.

I think it's amazing how fans know a good HC after a few seasons. I always thought there was a correlation to how good a coach is to the talent that he has. I didn't realize the Jets underperformed these past 3 seasons to the talent on the roster. 

Year 1 big splash, they get to 9 wins with a journeyman QB.

Year two the bottom falls out. Injuries and an aging roster falls off a cliff. Again with journeyman QB.

Year 3 they strip the roster of aging vets and go young on purpose to try and land a FQB in the upcoming draft. On purpose. Which they accomplished with Darnold and I believe 3 players in their 30s currently on the roster. And they were led by a different journeyman QB. 

Curious what would have been the W-L record if we had a good coach these last 3 seasons. 

If Bowles and Mac are as bad at their job as many proclaim, then why the extensions. Is it really as simple as saying we have dumb owners? I mean the Johnsons. 

I wonder if the owners just ignore Mac if he said Bowles is a horrible HC, let me hire a coach that can take the talent on the roster to the next level. 

I do like the suggestion that simply hiring an offensive coordinator as HC will lead to Darnold development and good coaching because that always works out.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

I think it's amazing how fans know a good HC after a few seasons. I always thought there was a correlation to how good a coach is to the talent that he has. I didn't realize the Jets underperformed these past 3 seasons to the talent on the roster. 

Year 1 big splash, they get to 9 wins with a journeyman QB.

Year two the bottom falls out. Injuries and an aging roster falls off a cliff. Again with journeyman QB.

Year 3 they strip the roster of aging vets and go young on purpose to try and land a FQB in the upcoming draft. On purpose. Which they accomplished with Darnold and I believe 3 players in their 30s currently on the roster. And they were led by a different journeyman QB. 

Curious what would have been the W-L record if we had a good coach these last 3 seasons. 

If Bowles and Mac are as bad at their job as many proclaim, then why the extensions. Is it really as simple as saying we have dumb owners? I mean the Johnsons. 

I wonder if the owners just ignore Mac if he said Bowles is a horrible HC, let me hire a coach that can take the talent on the roster to the next level. 

I do like the suggestion that simply hiring an offensive coordinator as HC will lead to Darnold development and good coaching because that always works out.

There’s nothing “amazing” about it. 

I’m well aware of the history, but such surface-scratching generalities as you’ve outlined just serve to whitewash inexcusable specifics by glossing over them as though they never occurred. Like saying “the bottom falls out” ignores that the bottom was destined to fall out of a roster built like this, and to many of us it was obvious, where optimism blinded the believers. Ignoring crazy lucky circumstances upon other lucky circumstances from 2015 is a prime symptom of the incompetence of all those running the show. Just one example is how people scoffed at numbers like dropped interceptions with Fitz (like with Sanchez before him). While they of course don’t count as picks in past games, they are absolutely indicative of what is likely to happen when the law of averages catches up with such past, unlikely luck.

Betting on repeated long shot luck upon long shot luck is not a strategy employed by the wise; let alone by consistent winners. Yet this very strategy was what passed for “judgment” among the 3 boobs charged with building a winning Jets team.

- - - 

With regard to HC excuses, you know I agree he’s been provided mostly awful rosters. While the final decision-making responsibility ultimately rests upon the GM alone, only a fool thinks there wasn’t some measure of collaborative effort in arriving at these decisions. Regardless, there’s no correlation between poor roster talent and not knowing how to add, and Bowles failing to grasp simple math with regards to 2-point conversion decisions is just one type of indication that he should not be the man in charge of an NFL roster. It’s one of several nonstarter problems that shouldn’t provide him the cover of excuses no matter how bad the roster Maccagnan handed him.. A better roster, provided by a decent GM, would hide things like this more effectively; but it wouldn’t therefore mean he’s actually a better HC.

The Jets right now have a bad GM, a bad HC, and one or another of a tag-team pair of trust fund baby boomers hiring both despite no qualification for doing so. While the Jets do need a new HC, the last thing in the world they need is to compound past stupidity by giving that task to a GM who can’t adequately select players, which was his only alleged qualification int he first place. I’d admit, though, I half expect it to happen, as it’d be par for the course with the sorry way the franchise has typically been run. 

Are there a couple worse GMs or HCs in the league? Perhaps so, but they aren’t typically employed by the teams we need to get past to get to the SB. Getting a 60 on a test is better than getting a 50 on a test, but someone else scoring even more poorly doesn’t negate the 60 still being a failure.

[Creepy Lurker]

On 8/26/2018 at 6:27 PM, 56mehl56 said:

I appreciate the effort , but take a look at any team's draft record.  Many here think missing on draft picks is solely a Jets thing. The draft for all intents and purposes is a crap shoot . Some teams are better at developing players and IMO that's what separates teams "good" at drafting vs teams perceived as poor at drafting.

You mention players like Wilk, Richardson, Pryor these are guys who were all highly rated. So what went wrong, is it possible that maybe its not the players but the coaching , schemes and development that this organization lacks.

Sure the Jets have had their share of bad picks , but the "trolls" and I'll stick to that word still label every Jet pick a bust w/o them having a fair share to prove themselves. Guys like Williams and Adams are solid players but because they don't put eye popping stats they are mocked and derided here by the TRUE Jets fans. 

Hey. Sorry to revive this conversation we had the other day but I randomly came across an interesting article by accident that has to do with this exact subject. This is the only point that I was trying to make. My opinion has some reasoning behind it is all. It’s way too long to paste so here is the link if you are interested and I’ll include the piece on the Jets below. This article is in regards to worst drafting teams over the last decade:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/920226002

3. New York Jets

New York's first-round record was far from sterling during this stretch, with Kyle Wilson, Quinton Coples, Dee Milliner and Calvin Pryor all failing to reach a second contract with the team. But New York's second round haul from 2012-16 was just as bad, if not worse. Wide receiver Stephen Hill, quarterback Geno Smith, tight end Jace Amaro, wide receiver Devin Smith and quarterback Christian Hackenberg. None remain with the team, and Smith and Amaro are the only two who remain on NFL rosters.

Perhaps a vestige of the Ryan era, the Jets took high-risk players who flashed athleticism but couldn’t translate their skill sets on the field. They tied with the 49ers for most first-round players (four) to wash out of the league in that span.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Hey. Sorry to revive this conversation we had the other day but I randomly came across an interesting article by accident that has to do with this exact subject. This is the only point that I was trying to make. My opinion has some reasoning behind it is all. It’s way too long to paste so here is the link if you are interested and I’ll include the piece on the Jets below. This article is in regards to worst drafting teams over the last decade:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/920226002

3. New York Jets

New York's first-round record was far from sterling during this stretch, with Kyle Wilson, Quinton Coples, Dee Milliner and Calvin Pryor all failing to reach a second contract with the team. But New York's second round haul from 2012-16 was just as bad, if not worse. Wide receiver Stephen Hill, quarterback Geno Smith, tight end Jace Amaro, wide receiver Devin Smith and quarterback Christian Hackenberg. None remain with the team, and Smith and Amaro are the only two who remain on NFL rosters.

Perhaps a vestige of the Ryan era, the Jets took high-risk players who flashed athleticism but couldn’t translate their skill sets on the field. They tied with the 49ers for most first-round players (four) to wash out of the league in that span.

I agree judging the drafting after the fact ,its been pretty poor.  But again I'll contend some of those players were drafted by the current HC's/GM for a specific scheme of that CS. Coples , Wilson, Pryor all guys who Rex wanted for his defense. Amaro a big fit in WCO , no fit under Gailey.  

I mean could the drafting have been better absolutely , but IMO a bigger issue is the instability of the CS over the past decade . Too many restarts , which is one reason I was willing to patient with Bowles , but he's clearly lost me at this point.  I want an offensive minded HC to grow the team along with Sam for the next decade. 

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I agree judging the drafting after the fact ,its been pretty poor.  But again I'll contend some of those players were drafted by the current HC's/GM for a specific scheme of that CS. Coples , Wilson, Pryor all guys who Rex wanted for his defense. Amaro a big fit in WCO , no fit under Gailey.  

I mean could the drafting have been better absolutely , but IMO a bigger issue is the instability of the CS over the past decade . Too many restarts , which is one reason I was willing to patient with Bowles , but he's clearly lost me at this point.  I want an offensive minded HC to grow the team along with Sam for the next decade. 

Especially the instability at OC. Mainly, I don’t know much about other teams draft histories like the Jets so this article was helpful without having to do tedious research for teams that I don’t give 2 craps about. Thought you’d find it interesting/relevant. 

[56mehl56]

10 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Especially the instability at OC. Mainly, I don’t know much about other teams draft histories like the Jets so this article was helpful without having to do tedious research for teams that I don’t give 2 craps about. Thought you’d find it interesting/relevant. 

I appreciate it - thanks. The team that surprised from that list was the Broncos but like us they've had a hard time finding a QB .