CTM Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said: I seen so many fans literally crown Khalil Mack and Chicago while being up 20-0. And just like that. Just like his playing days of Oakland; the best Khalil Mack could do was lead his defense to another loss (and weren't they top 10... without him?) It's Super Bowl or bust for both of Khalil Mack and Chicago. You don't trade away two 1st round draft picks for a 27 year old Defensive player along with paying him elite Franchise QB money worth $23.5 million dollars per year for anything less (than a SB title). How can Chicago improve their current team moving forward without two 1st round draft picks along with being forced to pay Khalil Mack $23.5M per? What I seen tonight was an All-Time Great QB in Aaron Rodgers (who's worth every penny of his contract) actually lead his team to a victory from down 20-0... All while a Khalil Mack led defense allowed it to happen and couldn't stop it. There is a difference between a winning Superstar (Aaron Rodgers) and an overrated individual sack master (Khalil Mack). You don't trade away two 1st round draft picks for an OLB/DE along with being forced to pay him $23,500,000 per year. You just don't. And Aaron Rodgers and the Green Bay Packers just proved why. Not even Khalil Mack could stop the greatest Green Bay Packers 4th quarter Comeback of All-Time (the type of embarrassing loss Chicago may never recover from here in 2018). Quarterbacks win championships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raideraholic Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said: They also didn't pay Reggie White QB dollars, and give up two first round picks to get him. the issue is not signing Mack; the issue is the cost, especially when you don't have a top QB. If the Raiders play this right, they might set themselves up for years to come. Chicago, not so much.... Only way the Raiders come out ahead is if Arden Key, Pj Hall,Maurice Hurst , and Fadol Brown become the pass rushers the Raiders think they can become. Raiders without a doubt traded away their best player on their team, but I expect the defense to improve because Paul Guenther is the best DC they have had in a long time. It's a shame K Mack never had a chance to play for him, and they really didn't get anything back that can help them this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said: They also didn't pay Reggie White QB dollars, and give up two first round picks to get him. the issue is not signing Mack; the issue is the cost, especially when you don't have a top QB. If the Raiders play this right, they might set themselves up for years to come. Chicago, not so much.... No, there is no issue. Though Favre got most of the credit, even he would tell you what Reggie White meant to those teams and that organization when he was there. What they gave up for him was worth it. Paying a defensive player 24 million dollars isnt "QB money" anymore, when Kirk Cousins is making 30 million a year and has a guaranteed contract or a guy like Garappolo making almost 40 million this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenWhite Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Aaron Rodgers isnt human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vader Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said: Nope. Neither are Kyle Wilson, Dee Milliner, or at last check Calvin Pryor. I wonder if there is a self help group for ex Jets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet_Engine1 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Vader said: I wonder if there is a self help group for ex Jets Yes. They go to Vernon Gholstons theraputic horticulture program. Seriously. Its a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodeawhodat Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 best player on the field last night not named Rodgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I cant believe Mack built a 20 point lead and the Bears blew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 MACK GETS AN IFFY GRADE. first half was vs Deshone Kizer who is a walking turnover. Will not be in league long. in the 2nd half, GB ran 28 plays and scored 24 pts and Mack didnt have a tackle. thats just facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupz27 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Villain The Foe said: Drew Brees is arguably better than both Brady and Rodgers, but Brees is a QB who's probably lost more games where his offense scored 30 or more points than anyone else in league history. Why? Because he's just a QB and doesn't play defense. Drew Brees has 12 seasons as a Saint, yet they've made the playoffs just 6 times, and only 1 time did they go to the playoffs in "back-to-back" years. And this is a Drew Brees who from 2008 to 2016 AVERAGED 5,000 yards per season with 35+ TD's. Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady are no where near that level of insanity....yet Drew Brees will always be overshadowed because of defenses he never had. You need more than a QB. There are 32 teams in this league, and only three of them have Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. And two of those three QB's only have one SB each in over a decades worth of playing. Stop underrating defensive players because of 2 quarterbacks. It makes no sense. There's 30 other starting QB's in this league that do not fit in the mold of Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers So making it seem like you "only pay a QB" that money as if the other 30 QB's are like Tom or Aaron kinda shows why your point doesn't hold water. You pay Aaron Donald when your QB is Jared Goff. You go get a Khalil Mack when your QB is Mitch Trubisky. I didn't see anyone complaining when the Packers were breaking records to get their hands on Reggie White. And I didn't see anyone complaining when they started going to Super Bowls either. They could have easily said, "we dont have to pay White that money...we have Brett Favre". lmao. This being overly-dependent on a QB is going waaaay too far. I’d argue this is on the coaching in NO, Belicheck would never put up with his teams consistently giving up that many points, yes it has occasionally happened to his teams like last years Super Bowl, but it’s not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I was not big on trading for him at that price. And I still don't think it was a mistake to pass on the opportunity. But we should give him his due for last night. He was involved in 3 turnovers in the 1st half alone. I don't care what he did for the rest of the game, that was plenty. Just to put things into perspective, there are starting players on the Jets defense who will not accomplish in the full 16 game season what he accomplished in one half of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, Losmeister said: MACK GETS AN IFFY GRADE. first half was vs Deshone Kizer who is a walking turnover. Will not be in league long. in the 2nd half, GB ran 28 plays and scored 24 pts and Mack didnt have a tackle. thats just facts. BTW, Kizer was almost as bad as Spinks vs. Tyson... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS17 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Mack had nothing to do with the Bears losing. He was their best player. Chicago lost because Trubisky sucks and because of Nagy’s gutless playcalling. Go for it on 4th and 1 to keep Rodgers from getting the ball back. Holy sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, stoicsentry said: He was involved in 3 turnovers in the 1st half alone. I don't care what he did for the rest of the game, that was plenty I can hear the coach now... Give me just a HALF, a HALF!!! Not even a full 60 minutes!!! I just need a HALF from all of you and we'll be CHAMPS!! HALF!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 19 minutes ago, Lupz27 said: I’d argue this is on the coaching in NO, Belicheck would never put up with his teams consistently giving up that many points, yes it has occasionally happened to his teams like last years Super Bowl, but it’s not the norm. Then folks need to also understand that there can be no double standards in that argument as well. If we can give the credit to Bill Belichick then we can also say that maybe we need to stop giving Tom so much of the credit and give it more to the "System" he's in. And you'd be able to support that given how other QB's have looked in the system. Garappolo looked great before his injury, Matt Cassel did as well and only missed the playoff's given odd tie breakers during his 11 wins that year. Brissett played in that system, completed over 61% of his passes...never threw a TD yet in 3 games had a 2-1 record. Based on your position, then how important is Tom Brady really? He has what folks believe is the best coach of all time, the best TE of all time, but plays in a system that any QB behind center has had clear success in...and we're not talking about just stats, but actual wins. Atleast in N.O. We all KNOW that the Saints is all Drew Brees. There's little debate on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgivs21 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said: The point isnt being missed. The comparison is poor. Folks are complaining about trading for Mack and comparing it to the QB position as if the Bears haven't shown that they've already invested in Trubisky as their franchise. Are they not able to trade for a player if it's not a QB? Mack was worth the trade and his performance proved it last night. How many Aaron Rodgers have been drafted with the dozens and dozens of 1st round picks since Aaron Rodgers has drafted in 2005? The answer is zero. A big fat 0. How many QB's have been drafted in the 1st round since 2005? 37 of them. Not one of them is as good as Aaron Rodgers. What are you guys talking about? The bottomline is you use picks to build your team, and building your team can also mean trading those picks for players that can fill a need on the other side of the football. You know why Aaron Rodgers doesn't have more SB wins or even appearances? Because the Packers secondary has been horrible since Woodson left, and they haven't found a replacement for the ageing Clay Matthews. In all of Aaron Rodgers "Greatness", he has YET to overcome that reality. It's not all about the QB. Folks need to stop believing that. The Pats traded away last years sack leader & they still managed to make the superbowl. And there is an argument that the Bears have not found their QB. And they definitely won't now if Trubinsky doesn't turn it around because they just traded 2 1sts away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defense Wins Championships Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 Once again... Khalil Mack has a career losing record of 28-38 (including 4 years with Oakland, 1 playoff loss and last night's loss) and a career losing percentage of (.424%) & even during his Defensive Player of the Year campaign could only manage a 1st round exit while combining for 0 sacks during his teams Wild Card loss. Two 1st round draft picks along with $23.5 million dollars per season all for a 27 year old glorified sack artist who's shown zero ability to lead his teams to victory and/or even be able to elevate his Defense(s) beyond anything past mediocrity with a career losing record and career losing percentage of of 28-38 (.424%)? No thank you. Not for no two 1st round draft picks and $23.5 million dollars per season at least. Give me a DeMarcus Lawrence/Dante Fowler Jr. type of outside/edge pass rusher, a 2019 1st round Franchise LT in order to protect Sam Darnold's blindside for the next 10+ years along with a 2020 1st round road grader of a Center in order to feature our next Kevin Mawae/Nick Mangold type of blue chip Center. And Chicago can keep their Khalil Mack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, bgivs21 said: The Pats traded away last years sack leader & they still managed to make the superbowl. And there is an argument that the Bears have not found their QB. And they definitely won't now if Trubinsky doesn't turn it around because they just traded 2 1sts away. The Patriots have arguably the greatest coach of all time providing plays and has given Brady the best TE of all time. The Patriots have always found a way to have solid to great linebackers and CB's during TB's time there as well. As for your Bears QB argument, that isnt an argument...not many people believe in Trubisky. But this argument is not an argument inside the Bears organization, the organization who will clearly disagree with folks who are outside of the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Defense Wins Championships said: Once again... Khalil Mack has a career losing record of 28-38 (including 4 years with Oakland, 1 playoff loss and last night's loss) and a career losing percentage of (.424%) & even during his Defensive Player of the Year campaign could only manage a 1st round exit while combining for 0 sacks during his teams Wild Card loss. Two 1st round draft picks along with $23.5 million dollars per season all for a 27 year old glorified sack artist who's shown zero ability to lead his teams to victory and/or even be able to elevate his Defense(s) beyond anything past mediocrity with a career losing record and career losing percentage of of 28-38 (.424%)? No thank you. Not for no two 1st round draft picks and $23.5 million dollars per season at least. Give me a DeMarcus Lawrence/Dante Fowler Jr. type of outside/edge pass rusher, a 2019 1st round Franchise LT in order to protect Sam Darnold's blindside for the next 10+ years along with a 2020 1st round road grader of a Center in order to feature our next Kevin Mawae/Nick Mangold type of blue chip Center. And Chicago can keep their Khalil Mack... Dude, only QB's have "Career records" that reflect in wins and loses. Dont be that guy. You've already went down the wrong rabbit hole initially with this ridiculous thread, please dont double down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupz27 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said: Then folks need to also understand that there can be no double standards in that argument as well. If we can give the credit to Bill Belichick then we can also say that maybe we need to stop giving Tom so much of the credit and give it more to the "System" he's in. And you'd be able to support that given how other QB's have looked in the system. Garappolo looked great before his injury, Matt Cassel did as well and only missed the playoff's given odd tie breakers during his 11 wins that year. Brissett played in that system, completed over 61% of his passes...never threw a TD yet in 3 games had a 2-1 record. Based on your position, then how important is Tom Brady really? He has what folks believe is the best coach of all time, the best TE of all time, but plays in a system that any QB behind center has had clear success in...and we're not talking about just stats, but actual wins. Atleast in N.O. We all KNOW that the Saints is all Drew Brees. There's little debate on that. Well Brady has never had a losing season, Brees has, Brady takes over games, and very rarely fails with the ball in his hands, and needing a score to win while Brees fails way more then I’d like from my QB at those situations. Yes I do believe the Belicheck culture gives Brady a leg up on all other QB’s, but I wouldn’t use that to take anything away from Brady, I understand your point, but I just can’t buy in that Brady is a result of Belicheck completely, I can buy Belicheck developed Brady, and then Brady took it to a whole other level though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, Lupz27 said: Well Brady has never had a losing season, Brees has, Brady takes over games, and very rarely fails with the ball in his hands, and needing a score to win while Brees fails way more then I’d like from my QB at those situations. Yes I do believe the Belicheck culture gives Brady a leg up on all other QB’s, but I wouldn’t use that to take anything away from Brady, I understand your point, but I just can’t buy in that Brady is a result of Belicheck completely, I can buy Belicheck developed Brady, and then Brady took it to a whole other level though. Actually, what you meant to say was "Belichick never had a losing season during that stretch...Payton has". See what I did? You're trying to have it both ways.........and im not going to allow you to. In one breath you say "Belicheck would never put up with his teams consistently giving up that many points", then in another you say..."Yes I do believe the Belicheck culture gives Brady a leg up on all other QB’s, but I wouldn’t use that to take anything away from Brady" Yet you immediately use Payton to take away from Brees. A funny guy you are! If Payton can have that impact on Brees to the negative then why cant Belichick have that on Tom Brady to the positive? Remember, Brady doesn't have to worry about terrible defensive play right? But also, Brees is clearly the better QB based on career...yet never had a coach or defense like a Patriots team. Put Brees on the Patriots the past 15 years....they'd probably win 10 SB's. Put Brady in N.O., probably wins 1. You cant have this both ways Lupz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 All else held equal, I'm taking Brees over brady* all day every day. It's not even close to a contest. The only two guys I'd definitely take over Brees is Elway and Rodgers, and it's mostly because they have an added mobility element that Brees doesn't. Maybe Big Ben but I'm not sure yet. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defense Wins Championships Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said: All else held equal, I'm taking Brees over brady* all day every day. It's not even close to a contest. Yea, right; not when you're playing in the rain, cold, wind, mud and snow and had to bet your life on it you wouldn't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnitedWhofans Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I dont think the price of picks would be worth the amount of wins Mack would bring. If we were a piece away from a title I would do it but we have other needs as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Defense Wins Championships said: Yea, right; not when you're playing in the rain, cold, wind, mud and snow you wouldn't. Yes, yes I would. That's why I typed it. You seen it? I also wouldn't blame 1 defensive player for losing a game in which the guy made history for his productivity in the first half, especially if my username is DWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupz27 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said: Actually, what you meant to say was "Belichick never had a losing season during that stretch...Payton has". See what I did? You're trying to have it both ways.........and im not going to allow you to. In one breath you say "Belicheck would never put up with his teams consistently giving up that many points", then in another you say..."Yes I do believe the Belicheck culture gives Brady a leg up on all other QB’s, but I wouldn’t use that to take anything away from Brady" Yet you immediately use Payton to take away from Brees. A funny guy you are! If Payton can have that impact on Brees to the negative then why cant Belichick have that on Tom Brady to the positive? Remember, Brady doesn't have to worry about terrible defensive play right? But also, Brees is clearly the better QB based on career...yet never had a coach or defense like a Patriots team. Put Brees on the Patriots the past 15 years....they'd probably win 10 SB's. Put Brady in N.O., probably wins 1. You cant have this both ways Lupz. I can, both QB’s are HOF QB’s, one has a HC who can give 2 sh*ts about defense period! The other has a HC who cares about both sides of the ball equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 33 minutes ago, Lupz27 said: I can, both QB’s are HOF QB’s, one has a HC who can give 2 sh*ts about defense period! The other has a HC who cares about both sides of the ball equally. ? Now you're just changing the entire subject. Anyway, lets talk some Jets football. Those who disagree with Mack getting the deal will simply have to continue to disagree and create ways to show how ridiculous it was. Sam Darnold plays in a couple hours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said: I dont think the price of picks would be worth the amount of wins Mack would bring. If we were a piece away from a title I would do it but we have other needs as well Pass rusher is the biggest one. Bingo there's one of your picks spent on a guarantee. What are you doing with your second number one now that you've spent the first on a guy that almost is guaranteed to not be on the same planet as Mack as a player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 This is pretty interesting though. Nevermind the interruption that Mack caused that dont show up on stat sheets, but most importantly...check out what Greenbay had to do in order to combat this dude. https://youtu.be/3Qyk_u3HYfg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 16 hours ago, PS17 said: Mack had nothing to do with the Bears losing. He was their best player. Chicago lost because Trubisky sucks and because of Nagy’s gutless playcalling. Go for it on 4th and 1 to keep Rodgers from getting the ball back. Holy sh*t. Yeah I didn’t know the bears had 21 starting players besides Khalil Mack who himself played lights out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 14 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said: Pass rusher is the biggest one. Bingo there's one of your picks spent on a guarantee. What are you doing with your second number one now that you've spent the first on a guy that almost is guaranteed to not be on the same planet as Mack as a player? Could you imagine Mack rushing the qb with our secondary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSteve Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 21 hours ago, Villain The Foe said: Paying a defensive player 24 million dollars isnt "QB money" anymore, when Kirk Cousins is making 30 million a year and has a guaranteed contract or a guy like Garappolo making almost 40 million this year. We will agree to disagree Vill..... I don't think he is enough of a difference maker to warrant that contract. Von Miller? Yeah. Oh, AND two first round picks. Just too much to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 You need to have a QB and a pass rush. The Bears only have 1/2. Mack is future HOFer, and Bears fans will love him. Trubisky....not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Anyone else digging the irony that the OP’s name is defense wins championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said: We will agree to disagree Vill..... I don't think he is enough of a difference maker to warrant that contract. Von Miller? Yeah. Oh, AND two first round picks. Just too much to pay. Listen to this video...carefully. Von Miller would also be worth that trade, but specifically dealing with how folks look at QB's in comparison... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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