Waste your time on my self-indulgent, overly-long, thoughts on the state of the Jets (plus bonus content)

[HawkeyeJet]

This is an honest question for anyone who cares to answer.  I see both sides of the discussion often.  Not sure one side is right over the other.

Anyway, I see a lot of people that think Macc is the main problem, and Bowles is collateral damage from Macc.

Then, I see the opposite.  That Macc has done somewhat well, and Bowles isn't getting as much out of this team as he should.

I tend to fall in that second camp simply because I think certain players have flashed enoungh for me to believe that we aren't getting every thing we can get out of them, which would fall more on the coach.

Just curious as to how people determine the main source of concern, coaching or talent.  Again, not trying to say one is right or wrong.  I just think it's interesting because obviously things are not super rosey, and there likely is one party that deserves more blame, but it's tough to tell who.

[HawkeyeJet]

Duplicate

[Ron Rico]

Hi every body! I recently recovered from a 7 year coma. Please tell me the Jets didn't win a superbowl and I missed it!

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

They couldn't find a TE? they couldn't sign ASJ? Cmon. They couldn't find a pass rusher? 

your logic is because they couldn't spend it on SUH they shouldn't spend it at all? I don't buy it. They should not be starting Tomlinson and Tuvu. There's a middle ground between amazing and nothing. 

since you asked the problem with the Johnson's is too much of their wealth derives from the team. Other guys like Paul Allen or Shahid Khan, this is a diversion. Look at the ownership wealth list, the Krafts and Johnsons are near the bottom. They are worth 3.5 Bil and the team is worth 3. The Krafts find ways around it like giving TB12 a lease and a contract to have his witch doctor on staff. It's cheating but they at least try. The smartest thing Woody ever did was buy the team. Johnson and Johnson was a long time ago. They do cut corners on payroll and they certainly cut corners hiring coaches. This is their golden goose and these tv contract checks actually matter to the Johnsons. Paul Allen doesn't care.  

don't believe me? Why has ever coach they've ever hired since Tuna been a first timer? Why are they luring Jeremy Bates out of the woods with Omaha Steaks? Because these are cheap things to do. There's no salary cap on coaches. Even small market teams like the Steelers have Mike Munshak at OL coach. He's a HOF OLman, former HC, former OC, working at line coach. They don't pay Bell but they pay for something. The Jets are the worst of both worlds, cheap with no commitment to winning.  

Wow, there is so much ridiculousness here. I'll bite.

• Judging from their offer, unless ASJ was making a figure that was easy to warrant paying as a backup, they just didn't want him back.
• As far as a pass rusher, you show me the list of expensive, proven pass rushers that routinely hit free agency. You draft them or trade for them, and they did put in an offer for Khalil Mack before Chicago outbid everyone. It didn't go through because of draft picks, not because of money. If ours was the top draft-pick offer, you can expect a Mack contract on the Jets would have been as expensive as the one he got from Chicago, because that's what Mack was holding out to get. 

I'm not going to dispute Johnson being a lousy, empty-headed owner who gets poor results by sticking his (or now his brother's) stupid snout in HC/GM hiring trough, but it's a wild and baseless leap to therefore suggest he has commanded his cruddy GMs to only assemble cheap-dollar teams. 

The Jets made offers to how many high-priced FAs just this year alone? If there was such a decree from up top, no such offers would have been made (let alone several of them). Plus they'd have front-loaded Trumaine Johnson's cap hit just like the 49ers did with Garoppolo, to use up their cap room this year. 

Assistant coaches:

• Their cost is a rounding error compared to an NFL player-payroll. 
• Stop with the foil hat stuff. The HC hires his coordinators and position coaches, not Woody Johnson. You seriously believe Woody is calling from England to tell his HC that he can only hire cheap coordinators and position coaches? Lol. 
• Why the bottom-of-the-barrel position coaches? Here's your reason: the best coordinators and position coaches are not going to ruin their reputations and careers by working under a weak HC like Todd Bowles, coaching crappy players drafted/acquired by Mike Maccagnan. Same exact reason 5 mega-priced players turned him down. 
• And FFS the Steelers are the one NFL team most notorious for letting high-priced personnel go. Now to you they're a team that spends lavishly as though Bell is the one exception? Lol. All those Pittsburgh position coaches and coordinators combined don't sniff half the one-year ~$14m offer the Jets just made to rent Suh for Bowles. 

[RutgersJetFan]

You guys figure all this stuff out yet or nah

[Sperm Edwards]

27 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

You guys figure all this stuff out yet or nah

I'm waiting for a reply so I can do more. I always have more.

[GreenWhite]

McCagnan is going to keep his job IMO. The owner is lock step and barrell on board with his three year plan, and loves Darnold.

 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

5 hours ago, Warfish said:

I want to focus on this part:

I know JN is a low-moderation site, but even a low-moderation site should have some explicit, unbreakable, instant-ban rules.

Telling other posters to go kill themselves is absolutely one of those should-be-unbreakable rules.

As a victim of suicide, I find it absolutely unacceptable to have other posters tell me, or anyone here at JN, to go kill themselves and I'm frankly a bit disapointed that nothing but a mild warning was issued when a poster here in that thread did it multiple times to multiple posters during the game.  My deepest thanks to Max for at least saying something tho, prior to that it was just let go, and the poster in question (clearly drunk and disorderly) was headed in a much worse direction.

The game thread was indeed a sh*tshow, frankly, and it needs addressed.  People shouldn't have to avoid the site on gameday for fear the more unhinged posters might decide to go full metal psycho on other posters.

Some guy tells some other guy to kill himself and the real victim here is...you?

[varjet]

• I don't get the sense that the Jets are cheap with players-how can a team that pays Josh McCown $10mm as a backup be cheap with players.  I think Mac gets too cute with not extending players.  It is pretty much standard operating procedure in the NFL to tear up a good player's last year and extent them-the ultimate cost years 2+ ends up being less, you lock them up and avoid a bidding war.  The Jets were way too cute with Wilkerson too and were outsmarted.  
• It is nice to have $100m of cap space next year, but part of that is because the Jets have many expiring contracts this year.  What WRs are under contract next year?  Not many-the plan to draft Stewart and Hansen and have them locked up obviously backfired.  I would extend Enunwa asap.  
• I don't get the sense that the Jets invest in coaches.   Look at the Eagles coaching staff last year?  Pedersen, DeFellipo, Reich, Stump Mitchell, Jim Schwartz.  Supposedly the Eagles assistant coaches also do more scouting/travelling for prospects than any other team.  
• The Jets also apparently do not like to terminate people/eat contracts.  I think that was the issue with the scouting department.  I think Terry Bradway was doing the scouting for Idzik.  
• The point about having other wealth is also a good one.  Have you noticed how family run supermarkets tend to be older and dumpier, but when a big chain takes it over they spend alot of money and renovate.  The family owners see every dime that leaves the store-corporates can just hide it.

[dbatesman]

46 minutes ago, GreenWhite said:

McCagnan is going to keep his job IMO. The owner is lock step and barrell on board with his three year plan, and loves Darnold.

 

Yeah, Bowles getting sh*tcanned and Peter Principle getting to hire his own coach has always been the most likely scenario.

[#27TheDominator]

49 minutes ago, GreenWhite said:

McCagnan is going to keep his job IMO. The owner is lock step and barrell on board with his three year plan, and loves Darnold.

Lock step and barrel?  So much that he has to give Maccagnan year 5 to see how the 3 year plan turns out?

4 minutes ago, varjet said:

• I don't get the sense that the Jets invest in coaches.   Look at the Eagles coaching staff last year?  Pedersen, DeFellipo, Reich, Stump Mitchell, Jim Schwartz.  Supposedly the Eagles assistant coaches also do more scouting/travelling for prospects than any other team.  

Strange to list Stump Mitchell.  He is the Jets RB coach.  I don't think bringing in Dennison fits the profile either. 

[BroadwayRay]

12 minutes ago, varjet said:

• The Jets also apparently do not like to terminate people/eat contracts.  I think that was the issue with the scouting department.  I think Terry Bradway was doing the scouting for Idzik.    

Yeah, he did. He stuck around as basically the Jets' chief scout for 14 years (including the first five as GM), meaning his fingerprints were on all the Jets drafts from 2001 to 20014. And even though Macc fired him in 2015, he probably relied on some of his scouting reports for picking players that year. 

Bradway was a Parcells guy. Just like Al Groh, just like Mike Tannenbaum, just like Todd Bowles. 

[section314]

One thing to keep in mind when deciding who is the problem here, the coach or the GM?  Over the last 2-3 years, how many players that we cut/waive, especially draft picks, get picked up by other teams and actually stick and are productive? Few, if any. Does that mean that they just haven't been coached properly, or that they really weren't that good to begin with? I think that answer is pretty obvious.

[Warfish]

43 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Some guy tells some other guy to kill himself and the real victim here is...you?

Trolling as usual?  

1. Not a victim, at all.  Just annoyed the behavior is tolerated, tbqh.

2. He told multiple people, including me.

3. What difference does it make to you either way?

[Ex-Rex]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:50 AM, TeddEY said:

Sam Darnold - Darnold looks shaky at best.  There are reasons to be optimistic and there are reasons for concern that you can't really just ignore as "21-year-old rookie."  He looks as if he may be good one day, but that it may take a while to get there.  The INT he threw at the end of the game (2nd to last one) was a complete disaster.  Yes, the offensive line failed on the play, but it’s 1st down and you take the sack.  You don’t throw blindly over the middle while falling down.  Dreadful situational awareness.  He's making those mistakes in bunches, and is lucky he didn't get picked off a couple of times before the end of the game.  He gets about as little help as possible, but I also worry about his arm.  Mayfield was rocketing the ball around and Darnold can’t do it.  Last night, I found myself remembering the combine with Mayfield, Rosen, and even Allen launching the ball and Darnold just standing their not throwing.  In that moment, I was glad he'd be gone when we were picking.  Though, I was happy when we got him.  Ultimately, I think Darnold will be at worst, solid, but will he be very good?  I’m not sure.  

He had the reputaion in college that under pressure he would turn it over and so far that has been true. Also, he has wasted some opportunities to use his legs when there is nothing open. I saw a play in the Cleveland game where he was flushed from the pocket, rolled right, had a mile of green grass in front of him and threw the ball away. Leggett almost caught it on the sideline but it was really a throw away. Also he missed a wide open Enunwa in the EZ against Miami. I am not throwing him under the bus just yet, but he must show better improvisational skills to be a great one.

[Ex-Rex]

53 minutes ago, section314 said:

One thing to keep in mind when deciding who is the problem here, the coach or the GM?  Over the last 2-3 years, how many players that we cut/waive, especially draft picks, get picked up by other teams and actually stick and are productive? Few, if any. Does that mean that they just haven't been coached properly, or that they really weren't that good to begin with? I think that answer is pretty obvious.

Taking ArDarius Stewart in the third round shows that Macc cannot project how a college player will look in the pros. At Bama Stewart shook off tackles and was a YAC machine. He can't even get the slightest seperation at this level. I have said it before that I think Macc is a pro personnel director and should be relieved of his draft duties. He just is NOT that good at it.

[Ex-Rex]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:50 AM, TeddEY said:

The Offense - What’s there to say?  We have no weapons and we can’t protect the QB.  We are going to struggle to move the football and it’s unclear, as there’s not a lot of young talent that’s developing, how and how long it will take to fix it.  You need a fully new Oline, a legitimate WR, a RB, and we still don’t have a TE who can create problems.  This is years of rebuilding... Robbie Anderson can’t be counted on for anything but go-routes, and we can’t protect the QB long enough to run them, and Darnold hasn’t looked great throwing them.  The WR screens were overused last night, but I was pleasantly surprised to see them actually working.  We usually run them right into a DB.  Outside of my hope for Darnold, I like Enunwa and just about no-one else.  Again, how do you fix this? 

Let Darnold make adjustments at the LOS. I have seen examples of Darnold facing an eight man box on 2nd and 3 and a run play has been called. Any QB worth his salt would have recognized this and checked to a quick slant pass or bubble screen. Yet, Bates will not let Darnold change the play from what I have read. The Jets ran the ball on that play and it was stopped for no gain. Another example was Darnold looking at two deep safeties, a play that screams run the ball, but he threw into coverage, once again because he is not allowed to audible. If true, Bates needs to be taken out the back and kicked in the ass a couple of times before being shown a pink slip. QB's learn by making such adjustments and recognizing them.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, BroadwayRay said:

Yeah, he did. He stuck around as basically the Jets' chief scout for 14 years (including the first five as GM), meaning his fingerprints were on all the Jets drafts from 2001 to 20014. And even though Macc fired him in 2015, he probably relied on some of his scouting reports for picking players that year. 

Bradway was a Parcells guy. Just like Al Groh, just like Mike Tannenbaum, just like Todd Bowles. 

Bradway was hired/recommended by Parcells but I don't think they ever actually worked together. Bradway was a Chiefs guy like pre-Tampa Herm.

But bringing TerryB back for another season? Here's an alleged quote from Maccagnan after re-hiring him (he'd already been fired):

"We need more football guys, and Bradway is the best football mind in the league. We made a mistake letting him go."

[BroadwayRay]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Bradway was hired/recommended by Parcells but I don't think they ever actually worked together. Bradway was a Chiefs guy like pre-Tampa Herm.

But bringing TerryB back for another season? Here's an alleged quote from Maccagnan after re-hiring him (he'd already been fired):

"We need more football guys, and Bradway is the best football mind in the league. We made a mistake letting him go."

The two of them had a prior history. Bradway was a Giants scout when Parcells was Giants HC.

EDIT: That story you linked to about the Jets rehiring Bradway was an April Fool's story--thank God.

Bradway was hired by Tannenbaum as a scout with the Miami Dolphins.. Again, Thank, God.

[#27TheDominator]

17 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

Let Darnold make adjustments at the LOS. I have seen examples of Darnold facing an eight man box on 2nd and 3 and a run play has been called. Any QB worth his salt would have recognized this and checked to a quick slant pass or bubble screen. Yet, Bates will not let Darnold change the play from what I have read. The Jets ran the ball on that play and it was stopped for no gain. Another example was Darnold looking at two deep safeties, a play that screams run the ball, but he threw into coverage, once again because he is not allowed to audible. If true, Bates needs to be taken out the back and kicked in the ass a couple of times before being shown a pink slip. QB's learn by making such adjustments and recognizing them.

Please. Do not encourage more bubble screens.  They are already 75% of our offense. 

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

The two of them had a prior history. Bradway was a Giants scout when Parcells was Giants HC.

EDIT: That story you linked to about the Jets rehiring Bradway was an April Fool's story--thank God.

Bradway was hired by Tannenbaum as a scout with the Miami Dolphins.. Again, Thank, God.

hahaha awesome -- in my defense I only have 23 chromosomes.

[Grandy]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:50 AM, TeddEY said:

Broken Down by Topic...

Todd Bowles - I’ve long defended Bowles on JN, not really on his merits, but rather the fact that I think blaming everything on the coach is just 1) wishful thinking that things can be made better quickly with one administrate change and 2) hindsight analysis as it’s easy to call something a bad decision after you see the outcome.  We’ve been down this road many times before and it never works and I don’t see a new coach winning with this roster either.  He doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, but he's also not the reason we're losing.  We simply aren't good.  I've long believed that his strategy was, knowing that the team is below average, to try and keep games close and sneak them out in the end.  We can debate the merits of that idea, but it's hardly the rudderless ship that some would have you believe.  Further, not everything bad that happens is the HC's fault.  He's not on the field.  That said, and rightfully so, Bowles is almost certainly gone at the end of this year.  The important thing is that Macc must go with him.

Mike Maccagnan - Our drafting is as close to Idzik level as you can get, especially when you consider Idzik only got two and Mac has now had four.  Hopefully the release of Stewart will be a wake-up call that ensures he doesn’t get another draft to find an okay top pick and essentially nothing else.  The talent level is abysmal on this team, and it's the reason we're neither good now, nor have much beyond the hope of the QB to get excited about.  Look at the drafts, the misses are pervasive.  The equally big issue is that the hits aren't making a difference.  Williams and Adams are nice players, but largely one dimensional, and don't contribute to wins.  There's a reason they were both "best player in the draft" and available at 6.  It's not that you don't want these guys on your team, it's just that, as you can see, they're not moving the needle towards being a contender.  Lee has stepped up a bit too this year, but he's still got a long way to go, and there is not a single Mac 2nd round pick that's contributing to this team today.  Ultimately, even if you like Macc for the Darnold acquisition or whatever else, how do you fire Bowles and let Macc pick a coach?  That means, you're signing on for 3 more years of Macc.  You can't fire him and then fire the coach after one, and you can't force the next GM to keep the coach, we saw that with Idzik/Rex, no?  Macc hasn't earned multiple years, so it's time for him to go.

Sam Darnold - Darnold looks shaky at best.  There are reasons to be optimistic and there are reasons for concern that you can't really just ignore as "21-year-old rookie."  He looks as if he may be good one day, but that it may take a while to get there.  The INT he threw at the end of the game (2nd to last one) was a complete disaster.  Yes, the offensive line failed on the play, but it’s 1st down and you take the sack.  You don’t throw blindly over the middle while falling down.  Dreadful situational awareness.  He's making those mistakes in bunches, and is lucky he didn't get picked off a couple of times before the end of the game.  He gets about as little help as possible, but I also worry about his arm.  Mayfield was rocketing the ball around and Darnold can’t do it.  Last night, I found myself remembering the combine with Mayfield, Rosen, and even Allen launching the ball and Darnold just standing their not throwing.  In that moment, I was glad he'd be gone when we were picking.  Though, I was happy when we got him.  Ultimately, I think Darnold will be at worst, solid, but will he be very good?  I’m not sure.  

The Offense - What’s there to say?  We have no weapons and we can’t protect the QB.  We are going to struggle to move the football and it’s unclear, as there’s not a lot of young talent that’s developing, how and how long it will take to fix it.  You need a fully new Oline, a legitimate WR, a RB, and we still don’t have a TE who can create problems.  This is years of rebuilding... Robbie Anderson can’t be counted on for anything but go-routes, and we can’t protect the QB long enough to run them, and Darnold hasn’t looked great throwing them.  The WR screens were overused last night, but I was pleasantly surprised to see them actually working.  We usually run them right into a DB.  Outside of my hope for Darnold, I like Enunwa and just about no-one else.  Again, how do you fix this? 

The Defense - There are some pieces in place, and there's a chance we can be a good defense at some point in the not too distant future.  However, as currently constructed, the defense looks great until you actually need them.  You can't expect miracles, because they are put in a terrible spot when the offense simply can't move the ball or get points.  But, do they ever get pressure in a big spot?  Do they ever generate turnovers when you really need them?  Adams plays well at the LOS and was looking to have a career game, but once the Browns started airing it out, you forgot he was on the field.  Lee is improved, but still a ways to go, and as mentioned before, Williams is "fine."  Trumaine Johnson won't be worth his contract, and will be gone well before we're good, but the investment was fine because we had the money.  My biggest concern is that the defense isn't there yet, and you still need a guy who can generate pass-rush on his own.  This should be fixable, but any resources we invest on the defensive side of the ball is a resource we could have/should have invested in the anemic offense.

The Game - This morning, it feels a lot less heartbreaking than it did last night.  Sure, we were up 14-0, but we had one real drive in 60 minutes.  We blocked a punt and capitalized which is what you need to do, but if you’re counting on that for half your offense, you’re finished.  The better team won last night, and it sucks that we got dunked on as both the Browns 1st win, and the beginning of the Bayer Mayfield Era, but this game was never as much in our control as the score indicated.  Ultimately, the loss itself is a lot less impactful than a number of things it revealed/confirmed about this team.  We couldn't get pressure when it mattered and we couldn't move the football at all.  We just weren't good, and it didn't have the feel of an off night.  The better team won.

The Penalties - Meh.  Whatever.  Bad teams take bad penalties.

Baker Mayfield - Much will be overhyped about tonight, and understandably so, but he looked the part of a #1 overall pick.  He made some mistakes which will be downplayed, but the guy could be a player.  

The Browns - This is a team on the rise.  They’ve been way down, but for the last two years, we’ve been told, at least we’re not the Browns, but who wouldn’t trade their roster for ours today?  They came to life with Mayfield and even if we’d held them off, Browns fans would have had more to be excited about than us.  They hung tight with the Steelers and Saints, and while this probably isn't their year, you can see where there's an opportunity, if Mayfield is even solid, to take over the division.

Kahlil Mack - Last two weeks are why you don't trade for him.  Imagine having lost all your resources to fix the mess that is this offense.  We may have actually won the game were he on the roster, but compared to the bigger issues, that would have been largely meaningless.

Next Week - Anyone have a reason why we can keep this game close?  Maybe Bortles has a Stafford-like meltdown?

JetNation - The game thread last night became a disaster.  Guys, it's a game and it's a discussion forum.  Getting angry at each other is one thing, but telling people to go **** themselves and to kill themselves and the other meltdowns - get some priorities.  This is a hobby.  It doesn't matter.  I imagine most of us went to work today, and would have done the same had the Jets won.  Perspective... Seriously.

Summation - My biggest concern, as alluded to above, is that I just don't know how you fix all of this.  We'll look better than we did last night at times this season, and we already have, but the problems are pervasive, and if done perfectly, probably take 2-3 drafts to fix.  I guess you start with the offensive line, probably in FA and the draft.  That will hopefully stabilize a lot.  The team feels far away from Monday night, and further away from being a contender.  Jacksonville next week... Oh boy.

If your still reading this, thanks for wasting your time with my nonsense.

Agree with everything except the Darnold part.

I dont think he is a high floor low ceiling guy. Everything is pointing to him having a low floor but an EXTREMELY high ceiling.

[ZachEY]

21 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

This is an honest question for anyone who cares to answer.  I see both sides of the discussion often.  Not sure one side is right over the other.

Anyway, I see a lot of people that think Macc is the main problem, and Bowles is collateral damage from Macc.

Then, I see the opposite.  That Macc has done somewhat well, and Bowles isn't getting as much out of this team as he should.

I tend to fall in that second camp simply because I think certain players have flashed enoungh for me to believe that we aren't getting every thing we can get out of them, which would fall more on the coach.

Just curious as to how people determine the main source of concern, coaching or talent.  Again, not trying to say one is right or wrong.  I just think it's interesting because obviously things are not super rosey, and there likely is one party that deserves more blame, but it's tough to tell who.

What should Bowles be getting out of this team?  If you want to say, this team could be better with a better coach, that's fine.  But, it's hard to say this team could be good with any coach.

As was pointed out previously, what players have we released during the Macc/Bowles tenure that have gone on to have success elsewhere?  Can you name even one?

I'm curious what players you're thinking of when you speak of "flashed enough" though?  Who could be better that isn't right now?

But, ultimately, to answer your question of the main concern being coaching vs. talent, here's another question... If you had an expansion team and the opportunity to pull a couple of players from every roster, how many Jets would you consider?  Forget how many would you take, but how many would make your conversation?  Better yet, if you were the Jets GM, and an expansion team could steal players from you to build their roster, how many would you be worried about losing?

I wouldn't want to lose Darnold or Quincy Enunwa, and even Enunwa would be very replaceable.  Who am I missing?  Are things really worse without Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams?  Even if they are, out of 22 starters, maybe we're now up to 4 players?

[HawkeyeJet]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

What should Bowles be getting out of this team?  If you want to say, this team could be better with a better coach, that's fine.  But, it's hard to say this team could be good with any coach.

As was pointed out previously, what players have we released during the Macc/Bowles tenure that have gone on to have success elsewhere?  Can you name even one?

I'm curious what players you're thinking of when you speak of "flashed enough" though?  Who could be better that isn't right now?

But, ultimately, to answer your question of the main concern being coaching vs. talent, here's another question... If you had an expansion team and the opportunity to pull a couple of players from every roster, how many Jets would you consider?  Forget how many would you take, but how many would make your conversation?  Better yet, if you were the Jets GM, and an expansion team could steal players from you to build their roster, how many would you be worried about losing?

I wouldn't want to lose Darnold or Quincy Enunwa, and even Enunwa would be very replaceable.  Who am I missing?  Are things really worse without Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams?  Even if they are, out of 22 starters, maybe we're now up to 4 players?

Not sure if this answers your question, but I think Leonard Williams is prime example of a player who is better than we are seeing.  Just my view point.  Could be wrong.  I think Bowles schematically and player development wise is awful.

I don't look at it as who have we lost that went on to other places and was better.  Which main piece, or even contributor, has been available to leave?  People will scoff, but JoJo Natson looked completely brutal as a Jet, and now looks like a ST force for the Rams.

I'm generally of the impression that more players on the Jets can go be solid/good players on other NFL teams(or under a different coach) than most people think. 

Not sure about Expansion team, but I think the following players could easily find work in a similar role to what they have here.

Crowell, Powell, Enunwa, Anderson, Kearse, Winters, Shell, Long.

On D Williams, both Corners, Adams, probably Maye if/when healthy.  Williamson.  I think Lee could be much better somewhere else than he is under Bowles. 

[nj meadowlands]

10 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Not sure if this answers your question, but I think Leonard Williams is prime example of a player who is better than we are seeing.  Just my view point.  Could be wrong.  I think Bowles schematically and player development wise is awful.

I don't look at it as who have we lost that went on to other places and was better.  Which main piece, or even contributor, has been available to leave?  People will scoff, but JoJo Natson looked completely brutal as a Jet, and now looks like a ST force for the Rams.

I'm generally of the impression that more players on the Jets can go be solid/good players on other NFL teams(or under a different coach) than most people think. 

omg reeeeeach

scoff scoff scoff scoff

[ZachEY]

48 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Not sure if this answers your question, but I think Leonard Williams is prime example of a player who is better than we are seeing.  Just my view point.  Could be wrong.  I think Bowles schematically and player development wise is awful.

 I don't look at it as who have we lost that went on to other places and was better.  Which main piece, or even contributor, has been available to leave?  People will scoff, but JoJo Natson looked completely brutal as a Jet, and now looks like a ST force for the Rams.

 I'm generally of the impression that more players on the Jets can go be solid/good players on other NFL teams(or under a different coach) than most people think. 

I don't know - I get the Leonard Williams argument, but I'm just not sure it's true.  Is Williams potentially an impact player, or is he just very solid.  I don't see him doing anything wrong, or being a liability, but the guy is a 3-4 DE who doesn't rush the passer, and that's kind of what he was projected to be.  Remember, Williams was considered to be the "Best Player in the Draft" and yet, there he was for us at 6.  Why?  PFF rates him very favorably, as well.  I think it's as simple as Williams doesn't do the things that show up in the stat sheet. 

It's not a matter of contributor, or main pieces leaving, though.  It's a matter of any of the tools we've had at our disposal.  I'm not expecting huge things, but come on, there is not one Macc 2nd round pick that is helping the Jets today (Maye's return will hopefully change that, but only from 0 to 1) and only one 3rd round pick (Jenkins), unless you count Shepard, who, to date, has 2 tackles.  What coach can win when, in 4 drafts, they've been given one guy who is contributing from the 2nd and 3rd rounds.  The 4th round doesn't really get any better, by the way.

Now, of all of those draft picks that aren't contributing to the Jets, none of them, who are all still young, and should be in the primes of their careers, and contributing elsewhere.  And, realistically, what can you expect from a team who's hit-rate in the mid-rounds looks worse than random chance?

[HawkeyeJet]

17 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I don't know - I get the Leonard Williams argument, but I'm just not sure it's true.  Is Williams potentially an impact player, or is he just very solid.  I don't see him doing anything wrong, or being a liability, but the guy is a 3-4 DE who doesn't rush the passer, and that's kind of what he was projected to be.  Remember, Williams was considered to be the "Best Player in the Draft" and yet, there he was for us at 6.  Why?  PFF rates him very favorably, as well.  I think it's as simple as Williams doesn't do the things that show up in the stat sheet. 

It's not a matter of contributor, or main pieces leaving, though.  It's a matter of any of the tools we've had at our disposal.  I'm not expecting huge things, but come on, there is not one Macc 2nd round pick that is helping the Jets today (Maye's return will hopefully change that, but only from 0 to 1) and only one 3rd round pick (Jenkins), unless you count Shepard, who, to date, has 2 tackles.  What coach can win when, in 4 drafts, they've been given one guy who is contributing from the 2nd and 3rd rounds.  The 4th round doesn't really get any better, by the way.

Now, of all of those draft picks that aren't contributing to the Jets, none of them, who are all still young, and should be in the primes of their careers, and contributing elsewhere.  And, realistically, what can you expect from a team who's hit-rate in the mid-rounds looks worse than random chance?

That's all fair.  Can't dispute it really. Macc has whiffed a lot on some premium picks.  I just think Bowles has been equally bad, if not worse, at developing the pieces they do have.  

Unfortunately both scenarios suck, even if remotely true, which they probably both are.

[ZachEY]

27 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

That's all fair.  Can't dispute it really. Macc has whiffed a lot on some premium picks.  I just think Bowles has been equally bad, if not worse, at developing the pieces they do have.  

 Unfortunately both scenarios suck, even if remotely true, which they probably both are.

Which is why I think that who's worse is an exercise in futility, because any situation in which one is retained, and the other is let go, is a bad one.  I just believe strongly that a coach can only do so much with so little, and the GM is responsible for so much or so little.

You can't limit the GM candidates available by forcing Bowles on them

You can't give Mac 3 more drafts with a new coach because you cannot fire a coach after 1 or 2 years and you cannot force the next coach on a new GM.

[deucebag]

On 9/24/2018 at 10:47 AM, bitonti said:

They couldn't find a TE? they couldn't sign ASJ? Cmon. They couldn't find a pass rusher? 

your logic is because they couldn't spend it on SUH they shouldn't spend it at all? I don't buy it. They should not be starting Tomlinson and Tuvu. There's a middle ground between amazing and nothing. 

since you asked the problem with the Johnson's is too much of their wealth derives from the team. Other guys like Paul Allen or Shahid Khan, this is a diversion. Look at the ownership wealth list, the Krafts and Johnsons are near the bottom. They are worth 3.5 Bil and the team is worth 3. The Krafts find ways around it like giving TB12 a lease and a contract to have his witch doctor on staff. It's cheating but they at least try. The smartest thing Woody ever did was buy the team. Johnson and Johnson was a long time ago. They do cut corners on payroll and they certainly cut corners hiring coaches. This is their golden goose and these tv contract checks actually matter to the Johnsons. Paul Allen doesn't care.  

don't believe me? Why has ever coach they've ever hired since Tuna been a first timer? Why are they luring Jeremy Bates out of the woods with Omaha Steaks? Because these are cheap things to do. There's no salary cap on coaches. Even small market teams like the Steelers have Mike Munshak at OL coach. He's a HOF OLman, former HC, former OC, working at line coach. They don't pay Bell but they pay for something. The Jets are the worst of both worlds, cheap with no commitment to winning.  

Excellent point!!!  Many Jets fans dont realize we are in a similar situation as the Mets with the Wilpons.  We have owners who rely on their pro sports team investment for a steady stream of income.  Therefore any savings they can derive from payroll are essential for them to maintain their lifestyle.

[BallinPB]

On 9/21/2018 at 2:18 PM, BallinPB said:

At least we aren't the Cleveland Browns has now gone to at least we aren't the Buffalo Bills.

This has now turned into at least we aren't the New York Jets......oh wait