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A moderate defense of Bates, Darnold and the Offense


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9 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I'm frustrated.  I'm pissed off at the outcome.  But regarding the offense, I'm not ready to pour a ton of heat on Bates and Darnold, despite both having less than stellar games.  Bates protected his QB, got the team to a lead, started to reduce risk,

takes foot off gas and they blow right by us. If this isn't the motto of this coaching staff idk what is 

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13 minutes ago, Thai Jet said:

You know you might be killed for this ? You're dealing with an angry mob.

The loss is made worse and amplified by the fact that this was such a winnable game.  And, by the opponent not having won in 2+ years (despite the fact that the Browns are going to win many more games this year).  Being on national TV doesn't make anyone feel good about this either.  I just want the conversations to be more nuanced and realistic.  We have problems but I honestly do not think the offense is the biggest issue.  I've defended Bowles a little bit over the years, but I now recognize that he's probably our biggest issue.  His tenure here is starting to resemble Rex Ryan....He's getting worse, not better in year 4.  His defenses can't make the important stops despite playing very well for large stretches and having much more talent than the O.  He didn't adjust to the new QB last night despite Mayfield coming in before half-time and the Jets knowing they'd see him all 2nd Half.

The discipline is what kills me though.  Especially the personal fouls.  Those aren't only disruptive because of their punitive nature (15 yards) but they're embarrassing and they send a message to other players that these kinds of things are acceptable under the head coach because there are no consequences.

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the problem is, bowles has coached the same with with fitz and mccown as well.  as soon as he gets a lead, the entire 2nd half is spent trying to eat clock while not attacking to try to finish off the other team.  what usually happens is, the jets keep punting (except when they turn it over with stupid fumbles) and lose the lead late in the game when the defense invariably falters.  then the offense is in desperation mode.  this has less to do with darnold and more to do with the HC who lacks 1) a killer instinct, 2) a feel for how the game is unfolding and how many points will be needed to win, 3) an understanding of in-game adjustments and 4) true accountability for all the sloppy penalties and mental lapses.  

the jets/browns game highlighted most of the problems with the bowles/mccagnan era.  the jets weren't just outcoached but out gm-ed, since the browns had a BETTER ROSTER.  all the jets cap room is irrelevant since they will still have to overpay for mediocre vets and it's just another way of spinning that their own drafts have sucked so they haven't had to invest $$ in their own draft picks.

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3 minutes ago, SR24 said:

OP very insightful post though, just the conservative playing it safe gameplans never seem to pay off

I agree.  But when we did press the accelerator we threw two INTs in less than 4 minutes.  I, personally, was satisfied with how the game was being managed most of the way against a defense that's better than people think.  I would have been irate if we threw a risky pass for a Pick-6 while we had a lead.  And, when the game was tied Bates and Darnold did put together a good drive down to the 10 yard line and kicked the FG.

I could make an argument that Sam Darnold DID have a game-winning drive in the 4th Quarter after the Browns tied the game.....until the defense took it away from him and put him in an impossible situation with 4 minutes left.

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No tomato throwing from me. Very sound analyses. 

 I’ll save my tomatoes to throw at our defensive minded head coach and defensive coordinator, who couldn’t figure out a scheme to confuse, or at least slow down a rookie qb making his first NFL appearance. 

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5 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I agree.  But when we did press the accelerator we threw two INTs in less than 4 minutes.  I, personally, was satisfied with how the game was being managed most of the way against a defense that's better than people think.  I would have been irate if we threw a risky pass for a Pick-6 while we had a lead.  And, when the game was tied Bates and Darnold did put together a good drive down to the 10 yard line and kicked the FG.

I could make an argument that Sam Darnold DID have a game-winning drive in the 4th Quarter after the Browns tied the game.....until the defense took it away from him and put him in an impossible situation with 4 minutes left.

you're right, but we needed a TD there, not a FG.  You just knew the Browns were going to score on the next drive.  you could feel it as they were rolling on offense.

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Just now, Legend Killa7 said:

you're right, but we needed a TD there, not a FG.  You just knew the Browns were going to score on the next drive.  you could feel it as they were rolling on offense.

which enraged me even more when the jets had 1st and 10 inside the browns 20 and ran 2x and then did a short pass.  that drive told you everything you needed to know about bowles.  he would rather lose 21-17 than risk an interception and have the browns win 17-14.  you're starting a rookie qb so he can experience all different types of situations and pressure so that when the team improves he's more ready.  bowles is still trying to lose games by close scores to keep his job.  

the entire game the jets didn't throw the ball into the endzone.  THE ENTIRE GAME.  how can you not take shots, especially when the defense is stacking the box?  

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7 minutes ago, Legend Killa7 said:

you're right, but we needed a TD there, not a FG.  You just knew the Browns were going to score on the next drive.  you could feel it as they were rolling on offense.

Agreed.  I have no problem with not going for it on 4th down.  You HAVE to take the 3 and the lead there, but the plays before that were chicken-sh!t.  We needed the TD there and you could just feel this being setup for a Browns comeback.

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Great take but I think the bigger point here that everyone needs to get a grip of....the Jets are a bad Football team.  3-5 wins bad. Perspective is key here.  It’s all about building Darnold and nothing about winning. 

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5 hours ago, JiF said:

Great take but I think the bigger point here that everyone needs to get a grip of....the Jets are a bad Football team.  3-5 wins bad. Perspective is key here.  It’s all about building Darnold and nothing about winning. 

To that point, how many truly bad plays have we seen from him that were his fault.  Play 1 in Detroit....The first INT vs. the Dolphins when he didn't recognize a very savvy and veteran move by a Safety to break off his route and jump that quick seam route?  Are there really too many others?  Maybe the first INT last night, throwing the ball to Kearse while being hit.....But the Jets were in desperation mode.  I knew the outcome would either be an INT by Cleveland or a Jets TD.  I really only put half of the INTs this year on Darnold.  The others aren't so much on him (Pryor under-running a route in the end zone, and two desperation plays last night).

Beyond that, I've continued to see great composure and some good decision-making.  He made some very good throws last night and did press down the middle of the field a few times, especially driving late for the go-ahead FG.

I still think this rookie season is going the way it largely should and the experience is invaluable.  But I really wonder what @jetsons thinks about all this.

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13 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

To that point, how many truly bad plays have we seen from him that were his fault.  Play 1 in Detroit....The first INT vs. the Dolphins when he didn't recognize a very savvy and veteran move by a Safety to break off his route and jump that quick seam route?  Are there really too many others?  Maybe the first INT last night, throwing the ball to Kearse while being hit.....But the Jets were in desperation mode.  I knew the outcome would either be an INT by Cleveland or a Jets TD.  I really only put half of the INTs this year on Darnold.  The others aren't so much on him (Pryor under-running a route in the end zone, and two desperation plays last night).

Beyond that, I've continued to see great composure and some good decision-making.  He made some very good throws last night and did press down the middle of the field a few times, especially driving late for the go-ahead FG.

I still think this rookie season is going the way it largely should and the experience is invaluable.

yup.  and what gets lost in the result last night is that he converted a 4th and 10!!!!  in crunchtime.  when was the last time you saw that with the Jets?  

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Just now, Legend Killa7 said:

yup.  and what gets lost in the result last night is that he converted a 4th and 10!!!!  in crunchtime.  when was the last time you saw that with the Jets?  

Bingo.

If you evaluate 56 minutes of the game before we put Darnold in a no-win, pass only situation where he needed a TD and not a FG.....he was playing pretty well in a conservative gameplan.  He was certainly looking better than Roethlisberger did vs. the Browns.

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I respect the ops take on the game. Well thought out and coherent observations. I just feel that Bates has been a little too conservative with the play calling. There was one point in the game where he ran the ball to one side either 4 or 5 times in a row and a lot of the pass plays were conservative as well. There is nothing wrong with putting a few wrinkles in the game plan. What about play action instead of running to the same side multiple times in a row. I dont think there is any one part of this team that didn't play a role in the loss to some degree and that includes some of the play calling. 

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

Great take but I think the bigger point here that everyone needs to get a grip of....the Jets are a bad Football team.  3-5 wins bad. Perspective is key here.  It’s all about building Darnold and nothing about winning. 

The Jets are not a bad football team ...They are however a poorly coached football team.

Cleveland has a dominant Defense that is very good at every level. When we had the chance to really put them Down Idiots like Robbie Anderson totally took the life out of our team and impowered the Brown's crowd and football team. Just like the Dumb mistakes and undisiplined play hurt us vs the Dolphins.

This is a coaching matter and our coach does not know how to stick the dagger in when you have a team on the ropes. He has no clue.

Andersons ass should have been on the bench after 2 fumbles in consecutive weeks cost us momentum. Hes not needed in a ball control scheme any how he has one move and its to run the fly route other than that hes totally and I mean totally useless

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30 minutes ago, RevisIsland610 said:

I respect the ops take on the game. Well thought out and coherent observations. I just feel that Bates has been a little too conservative with the play calling. There was one point in the game where he ran the ball to one side either 4 or 5 times in a row and a lot of the pass plays were conservative as well. There is nothing wrong with putting a few wrinkles in the game plan. What about play action instead of running to the same side multiple times in a row. I dont think there is any one part of this team that didn't play a role in the loss to some degree and that includes some of the play calling. 

Bates is doing what he needs to do. When you can't give your QB time you have to get rid of the ball quick . When you have to get rid of the ball quick that means short routes. The Patriots have made a decade of that philosophy and they do it with guys who are not exactly amazing physical football players. They do it with smarts and exceptional coaching which is completely run by Bill Belichick . We need a coach like that and we have not had one since Parcells

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The first 2 games the playbook seemed opened up for Darnold to use fully. He looked great for the youngest rookie to ever start. 

In CLE, they limited him cause of the short week/ Cle pass rush and look at what happened. It worked in the first half but they neesed to open it up a little in the second half. 

I think Bowles conservative methods will only hold back Darnold long term. Honestly, if he had his D making stops like the OP mentions, then he can earn the right to play it safe. But his defense ALWAYS crumbles. He has no sense of the feel of the game. Whatever the gameplan is, he sticks to it. Zero adjustments since day 1. No good...

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