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Bowles should go before Macc....


Freemanm
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Bowles should go way before Macc. When the time comes to state their cases - 

Macc's argument: Bowles was supposed to be a defensive guy who coveted DBs more than any other position. In the past two years, I signed arguably the best CB in the open market (Trumaine Johnson), got Morris Claiborne for a steal, drafted the 2017 draft's top safety in Jamal Adams, and arguably the top defensive lineman in 2015 in Leonard Williams. Overall, there are three first round picks on that defense, as well as a second rounder in Marcus Maye. Yet, Blake Bortles and the Jaguars racked up a billion yards of total offense against us this past Sunday? A rookie QB in the TNF game sliced and diced our secondary like butter in the game before that? What more can I do for this guy (Bowles)? Even with a really good secondary, we still feel the need to play cover 2/3 against mediocre offenses?

Yes, I've made some mistakes and we still have holes, but this is only year two of the rebuild. I got the franchise QB. I've made mistakes, but I've also made some very good moves/signings/trades. Trading Sheldon Richardson for both Kearse and a second rounder was my best. I signed Claiborne for virtually pennies on the dollar, got the top CB in the open market. What more can I do for this guy?

Bowles' argument: The busted coverages, lazy schemes and dumb penalties are not my fault. I need better players. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, slats said:

Both of these guys are not good at what they were hired to be good at; the former defensive coordinator has a terrible defense, and the former head scout can't draft. The Jets have not improved in four years. They should both be let go. 

To the OP's point, what coach would want to come here with Mac as the team's GM? 

Jets should be tampering with every potential candidate for both the HC and GM jobs right now and have a working plan in place for the first day of their offseason. 

This, +100000

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1 hour ago, Freemanm said:

Bowles should go way before Macc. When the time comes to state their cases - 

Macc's argument: Bowles was supposed to be a defensive guy who coveted DBs more than any other position. In the past two years, I signed arguably the best CB in the open market (Trumaine Johnson), got Morris Claiborne for a steal, drafted the 2017 draft's top safety in Jamal Adams, and arguably the top defensive lineman in 2015 in Leonard Williams. Overall, there are three first round picks on that defense, as well as a second rounder in Marcus Maye. Yet, Blake Bortles and the Jaguars racked up a billion yards of total offense against us this past Sunday? A rookie QB in the TNF game sliced and diced our secondary like butter in the game before that? What more can I do for this guy (Bowles)? Even with a really good secondary, we still feel the need to play cover 2/3 against mediocre offenses?

Yes, I've made some mistakes and we still have holes, but this is only year two of the rebuild. I got the franchise QB. I've made mistakes, but I've also made some very good moves/signings/trades. Trading Sheldon Richardson for both Kearse and a second rounder was my best. I signed Claiborne for virtually pennies on the dollar, got the top CB in the open market. What more can I do for this guy?

Bowles' argument: The busted coverages, lazy schemes and dumb penalties are not my fault. I need better players. 

 

 

 

Put like that, its hard to argue. Mac delivered for D, but the O is another  story

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7 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

Bowles WILL go before Mac.....but they both should be gone...no need to pin this situation on one individual....all parties are guilty 

All Macc is going to do is replace Bowkes with Bill O’Brien and have another bad draft

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We know Maccs underlings almost rioted because they were jonesing for Kamara and Macc refused to pull the trigger on a trade up. So instead, NOLA traded up. Kamara is looking like a HOFer.

What were the Jets scouts saying about Mahomes and Watson? And why didn’t we pull the trigger on either one of them? Was there consensus on “nope” or were there dissenting opinions?

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2 hours ago, Freemanm said:

Bowles should go way before Macc. When the time comes to state their cases - 

Macc's argument: Bowles was supposed to be a defensive guy who coveted DBs more than any other position. In the past two years, I signed arguably the best CB in the open market (Trumaine Johnson), got Morris Claiborne for a steal, drafted the 2017 draft's top safety in Jamal Adams, and arguably the top defensive lineman in 2015 in Leonard Williams. Overall, there are three first round picks on that defense, as well as a second rounder in Marcus Maye. Yet, Blake Bortles and the Jaguars racked up a billion yards of total offense against us this past Sunday? A rookie QB in the TNF game sliced and diced our secondary like butter in the game before that? What more can I do for this guy (Bowles)? Even with a really good secondary, we still feel the need to play cover 2/3 against mediocre offenses?

Yes, I've made some mistakes and we still have holes, but this is only year two of the rebuild. I got the franchise QB. I've made mistakes, but I've also made some very good moves/signings/trades. Trading Sheldon Richardson for both Kearse and a second rounder was my best. I signed Claiborne for virtually pennies on the dollar, got the top CB in the open market. What more can I do for this guy?

Bowles' argument: The busted coverages, lazy schemes and dumb penalties are not my fault. I need better players. 

 

 

 

I think if you keep Macc and get rid of Bowles you are very much limiting your coaching options.  No one is going to want to take the job with a "lame duck" GM in place knowing they're likely only going to get one year.  I think the best approach might be to bring a football czar like a Tom Coughlin type and let him oversee the GM and coaching decisions.  I'm not sure who that guy is but the Jets are in desperate need of a football guy to run the football side.  Let Chris and/or Woody stick to the business side.  I've always thought if there was a disagreement between Bowles and Macc how could Woody or Chris ever be the deciding vote?  They just don't have the football knowledge and the best thing they can do for this franchise is admit to this. I know there's plenty of cases of this not working out but it seems to be working for JAX

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If you fire Bowles and keep Macc, you're signing on for 3 more Macc drafts.  If the fact that only 1 of Macc's 2nd round picks and only 2 of his 3rd round picks are on ANY active NFL roster today doesn't bother you, you are also the problem.

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A real Gm would have told Bowles to make the most out of what he had and be the defensive guru that he was supposed to be and maybe get him a pass rusher in the draft and leave the rest of the defense to FA. Draft picks should have gone to the offense in addition to the FA signings and trades that they did.

Bowles was supposed to compensate for the rest of the defense after he inherited a young beast of a D line, and signed a good secondary in 2015. Only thing missing was a pass rusher. More than enough resources for a “defensive genius” to work with while we rebuilt the offensive line/offense knowing full well that Brick and Mangold were almost done and we were going to draft a rookie QB ASAP. Mac should go down for this alone. 

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51 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

If you fire Bowles and keep Macc, you're signing on for 3 more Macc drafts.  If the fact that only 1 of Macc's 2nd round picks and only 2 of his 3rd round picks are on ANY active NFL roster today doesn't bother you, you are also the problem.

Bowles has proven he can’t coach  a talentless roster. Macc has proven he can’t assemble a roster with talent. It’s best to get rid of both of them because neither has shown us anything. 

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Can someone give me a list of rookie GM's who crushed their first 4 drafts? Can someone give me a list of NFL franchises who change their GM's every few years that have Super Bowl rings? 

I'm not disputing that some of his moves are real stinkers. I'm not disputing that he has practically ignored the offensive line in the draft. I cannot see a franchise fire a GM who put the team in a position top draft a potential franchise QB. He's not going anywhere, anytime soon. He gets until at least the end of 2019. 

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12 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

A real Gm would have told Bowles to make the most out of what he had and be the defensive guru that he was supposed to be and maybe get him a pass rusher in the draft and leave the rest of the defense to FA. Draft picks should have gone to the offense in addition to the FA signings and trades that they did.

Bowles was supposed to compensate for the rest of the defense after he inherited a young beast of a D line, and signed a good secondary in 2015. Only thing missing was a pass rusher. More than enough resources for a “defensive genius” to work with while we rebuilt the offensive line/offense knowing full well that Brick and Mangold were almost done and we were going to draft a rookie QB ASAP. Mac should go down for this alone. 

Macc is a GM in name only. He can't tell Bowles to do anything. 

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3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Macc is a GM in name only. He can't tell Bowles to do anything. 

No kidding. But Bowles can’t tell him who to draft so he should have told Bowles that this was what He was going to do and his draft strategy. This has nothing to do with giving Bowles orders which of course I know he can’t. telling someone to “make do” is not giving them direct orders.

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11 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Can someone give me a list of rookie GM's who crushed their first 4 drafts? Can someone give me a list of NFL franchises who change their GM's every few years that have Super Bowl rings? 

I'm not disputing that some of his moves are real stinkers. I'm not disputing that he has practically ignored the offensive line in the draft. I cannot see a franchise fire a GM who put the team in a position top draft a potential franchise QB. He's not going anywhere, anytime soon. He gets until at least the end of 2019. 

He did nothing special re the franchise Qb he utterly failed with hackenburg and the team was sucking so he was or any other gm was going to get one of the top 4 guys in this years draft.

The teams with long time Gms?  most of them have enough success early  on to become long time gms.  Four drafts is plenty of time to see if a guy is good or not. 

The thing about mac is he strikes out in two ways, #1 just drafting bad players and #2 having a terrible draft philosophy.

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2 hours ago, slats said:

Jets should be tampering with every potential candidate for both the HC and GM jobs right now and have a working plan in place for the first day of their offseason. 

Believe it or not, but the best potential GM candidate could be on the Jets staff already?

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6 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

No kidding. But Bowles can’t tell him who to draft so he should have told Bowles that this was what He was going to do and his draft strategy. This has nothing to do with giving Bowles orders which of course I know he can’t. telling someone to “make do” is not giving them direct orders.

Macc has to take into consideration that Bowles runs a certain scheme. A true GM has say over player selection and game plans. This power structure is an abomination. 

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6 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He did nothing special re the franchise Qb he utterly failed with hackenburg and the team was sucking so he was or any other gm was going to get one of the top 4 guys in this years draft.

The teams with long time Gms?  most of them have enough success early  on to become long time gms.  Four drafts is plenty of time to see if a guy is good or not. 

The thing about mac is he strikes out in two ways, #1 just drafting bad players and #2 having a terrible draft philosophy.

How could you possibly say that he did nothing special in order to draft Darnold? There was zero chance Darnold falls to 5. Trading up to three guaranteed that the Jets would get one of the top 3. Staying at 5 didn't.

Macc has whiffed on some picks, but he has also drafted a potential franchise QB. You know, hands down the hardest piece of the puzzle.

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29 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Macc is a GM in name only. He can't tell Bowles to do anything. 

We will see whether this helped or hurt Mac, but my guess is that, for at least the first and maybe second round picks, the Three Stooges (Mac, Bowles and a Johnson) made the decision jointly.   Just my guess, but the rest of the drafts were all Mac.  

For Mac’s top 7 picks (first and second rounders), they all are basically understandable except Hack, which was inexcusable both for how bad he was and who he passed over.  But the real indictments of Mac/Scouting Department were his 3-7 round picks, which were far below average even taking into account that they are supposed to be long-shots.  

But Mac will also point to his bad staff that he inherited, and that he could not personally do the scouting anymore because he was now a big shot GM.  

But I agree with many here-restructure the front office, keep Mac around for now in some capacity (given that it appears he is learning) and fire Bowles (who keeps making the same mistakes over and over again).

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31 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Can someone give me a list of rookie GM's who crushed their first 4 drafts? Can someone give me a list of NFL franchises who change their GM's every few years that have Super Bowl rings? 

I'm not disputing that some of his moves are real stinkers. I'm not disputing that he has practically ignored the offensive line in the draft. I cannot see a franchise fire a GM who put the team in a position top draft a potential franchise QB. He's not going anywhere, anytime soon. He gets until at least the end of 2019. 

First question blatantly ignores that drafting was his one qualification. That would be an Idzik or Tannenbaum excuse, not a valid excuse for a Maccagnan or Bradway.

Second one is just circular logic. Those with good GMs don’t fire them. You have the cart before the horse. They’re fired because they didn’t get results; they didn’t fail to get results because they were fired after “only” 4 years.

It’s not that “some of his moves are real stinkers” — it’s that the overwhelming majority of his moves are real stinkers.

He is easily one of the very worst GMs in the league. There is no such thing as giving him until the end of 2019. There is the end of 2018 or the end of 2021. Or is your plan to fire him in 2019 and then seek out a new GM hire and forcefeed a HC onto any candidate? And of course you can’t fire that HC for 2 years because that would just be reflexively childish. 

They’re both terrible, so they both should go. Personally I’m still far from convinced either one is getting fired after the season.

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4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

First question blatantly ignores that drafting was his one qualification. That would be an Idzik or Tannenbaum excuse, not a valid excuse for a Maccagnan or Bradway.

Second one is just circular logic. Those with good GMs don’t fire them. You have the cart before the horse. They’re fired because they didn’t get results; they didn’t fail to get results because they were fired after “only” 4 years.

It’s not that “some of his moves are real stinkers” — it’s that the overwhelming majority of his moves are real stinkers.

He is easily one of the very worst GMs in the league. There is no such thing as giving him until the end of 2019. There is the end of 2018 or the end of 2021. Or is your plan to fire him in 2019 and then seek out a new GM hire and forcefeed a HC onto any candidate? And of course you can’t fire that HC for 2 years because that would just be reflexively childish. 

They’re both terrible, so they both should go. Personally I’m still far from convinced either one is getting fired after the season.

He is drafting for a HC that was selected for him. He is limited to players that fit a scheme. Again, the power structure sets up the "GM" for failure. A GM doesn't report along side the HC. A draft strategy for a team that runs a 4-3 is different than a team that runs a 3-4. A draft strategy for a west coast offense and a spread offense is not going to be the same. 

Not all bad GM's are fired, and not all good GM's are given a chance to succeed. 

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19 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

He is drafting for a HC that was selected for him. He is limited to players that fit a scheme. Again, the power structure sets up the "GM" for failure. A GM doesn't report along side the HC. A draft strategy for a team that runs a 4-3 is different than a team that runs a 3-4. A draft strategy for a west coast offense and a spread offense is not going to be the same. 

Not all bad GM's are fired, and not all good GM's are given a chance to succeed. 

He failed because of scheme?  First of all, he was hand picked because he and Bowles would be philosophically the same.  I pretty sure that they selected Bowles first and then found a GM that would fit with him.  You may want to absolve him because he was forced to work with Bowles, but that was his main qualification. 

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Looks like Macc hacked into someone’s account. 

I tend to agree though. But this Jets defense is ranked 5th in the league by Total DVOA. The issue is them coming up big when it counts most. That’s in the coaches. So, the potential is there. 

Where Macc doesn’t get a pass is on offense. The Jets are FOURTH!!! in the league in OL spending. Fourth. Yet our OL needs at least two new players and can at best be considered average.

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34 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

He failed because of scheme?  First of all, he was hand picked because he and Bowles would be philosophically the same.  I pretty sure that they selected Bowles first and then found a GM that would fit with him.  You may want to absolve him because he was forced to work with Bowles, but that was his main qualification. 

I didn't say that he failed because of a scheme. I'm saying that his draft selections are based on what his HC needs. He could have done better with the selections no doubt. I am not absolving him of all of the blame. What I am saying is that his draft would have been very different if he had an offensive minded coach or a coach with a different defensive philosophy. 

Bowles was hired first. Maccagnan had a list of coaches he would work with but a guy looking for a job is going to have a long list. Bowles was ONE of the coaches he would accept working with.

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