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Jon Gruden: anyone still upset we didn't hire him?


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13 hours ago, Obrien2Toon said:

I was always impartial to Gruden until he kept doing the draft

and loved every single pick, I mean if you are going to love every single player, what’s the point of you being there

Gruden’s qb Show on ESPN -  I thought he came across as the phonies most insincere POS

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10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

One big problem with this supposed plan: Gruden is awful when given the keys on personnel and draft decisions.

 

He traded away a 27-year old future HOF pass rusher, and will trade Cooper too, just so he can use those picks to draft a bust QB and WR.

 

And meanwhile, this supposed offensive genius is running the worst, most boring offense in the NFL. Against the Seahawks, Carr’s averaged “air yards” was 0.1, as nearly all of his throws were screen passes to RBs. Maybe that’s because the O-Line, run by the same Tom Cable whose lines were awful in Seattle, forced his hand. But does that also not at least partly fall on Gruden’s lap too?

 

A team with a young QB and elite pass rusher should not have been tanking. So if the plan was to tank the season, it’s a terrible plan. If that was not the case, then Gruden is doing a laughable job. He looks like a moron regardless. And he’s getting his QB killed in the process.

 

You’re giving Gruden wayyyyy too much credit. You really think he knew what Pat Mahomes would be from the jump? And because he read those tea leaves so well, he started this master plan to immediately turn the Raiders into a laughing stock on purpose? Come on.

 Your first sentence is only your opinion, and assumes you are smarter then all the teams who have hired and tried to hire Gruden. Unlikely.      2nd sentence: If you think Mack is worth 20+ million long term on a 6-10 team fine. If you think the Raiders did very well getting 2 1st rd picks for him, you think Gruden made a good trade and think like me. Your statement about him drafting the QB and WR isn't worthy of a reply, it's only you ranting.     3rd paragraph: again, your opinion, where you think you know more about Cable then the teams that hired him. Doubtful.       4th paragraph: again your opinion, but a fairly reasonable one. Again though you assume you know the overall talent on a 6-10 team better then its coach/GM, and have judged the rebuild 6 games into his first year. He's yet to accrue all the draft capital and cap space he wants, much less use it yet. C'mon.       5th paragraph: Maybe I am giving Gruden too much credit,, but with all the film he watched, and the interviews he did with Mahomes and his coaches for his ESPN QB series and his analyst roles, I think Gruden had a pretty good idea what Mahomes could be. I also think that the play of the Raider team so far, minus only Mack from last year, supports Gruden's decision to tear it down. That's my opinion

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

At least Gruden will make next April's draft interesting.  It looked for a few weeks like the NYG would be the only team in the Herbert sweepstakes.  Now it's a 2-team race and the jockeying will be interesting.  Raiders have the edge with 2 1st rounders assuming the Giants don't finish dead last and get the #1 pick.  If that happens, then all the picks in the world won't matter.  Both teams are clearly gunning for the top QB so unless we have a Goff/Wentz situation, one of them is going to suffer extreme disappointment. 

Who knows, we may see the Giants go into next season with Ryan Fitzpatrick as their starting QB.

Giants should bring back Hostetler

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5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I love discussions like this. They are the reason I enjoy Jet Nation as much as I do. So keep in mind I'm discussing, not arguing. Your first sentence is only your opinion, and assumes you are smarter then all the teams who have hired and tried to hire Gruden. Unlikely.      2nd sentence: If you think Mack is worth 20+ million long term on a 6-10 team fine. If you think the Raiders did very well getting 2 1st rd picks for him, you think Gruden made a good trade and think like me. Your statement about him drafting the QB and WR isn't worthy of a reply, it's only you ranting.     3rd paragraph: again, your opinion, which you think you know more about Cable then the teams that hired him. Doubtful.       4th paragraph: again your opinion, but a fairly reasonable one. Again though you assume you know the overall talent on a 6-10 team better, and have judged the rebuild 6 games into his first year. He's yet to accrue all the draft capital and cap space he wants, much less use it yet. C'mon.       5th paragraph: Maybe I am, but with all the film he watched, and the interviews he did with Mahomes and his coaches for his ESPN QB series and his analyst roles, I think Gruden had a pretty good idea what Mahomes could be. I also think that the play of the Raider team so far, minus only Mack from last year, supports Gruden's decision to tear it down. That's my opinion

Multiple teams hired Rich Kotite who worked for Walton, Buddy Ryan, Sam Rutigliano and Hank Stram.  I guess our opinions of him were unfounded.

Jon Gruden knew that Patrick Mahomes would be a stud and that he should concede the division to him before he played his second game in the NFL.  After interviews with the player and his coaches for his ESPN Qb series and his analyst role, as well as 4 years of watching him start in the NFL (3 at a pro bowl level) while having a continuing and close relationship with the Raiders,  Jon Gruden was completely hoodwinked into believing that Derek Carr was a viable starting QB and was stuck with a lemon.

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Multiple teams hired Rich Kotite who worked for Walton, Buddy Ryan, Sam Rutigliano and Hank Stram.  I guess our opinions of him were unfounded.

Jon Gruden knew that Patrick Mahomes would be a stud and that he should concede the division to him before he played his second game in the NFL.  After interviews with the player and his coaches for his ESPN Qb series and his analyst role, as well as 4 years of watching him start in the NFL (3 at a pro bowl level) while having a continuing and close relationship with the Raiders,  Jon Gruden was completely hoodwinked into believing that Derek Carr was a viable starting QB and was stuck with a lemon.

Did you ever watch his show?  Gruden thought Hackenberg was going to be good

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

He has to add to our football knowledge.  I feel like a real insider.  Spider Y2 banana. 

Screen passes to WRs > screen passes to RBs?

Apparently WR's were only targeted 13 times in that Seattle game.  I have no idea what they're doing or trying to do. 

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1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

 Your first sentence is only your opinion, and assumes you are smarter then all the teams who have hired and tried to hire Gruden. Unlikely.      2nd sentence: If you think Mack is worth 20+ million long term on a 6-10 team fine. If you think the Raiders did very well getting 2 1st rd picks for him, you think Gruden made a good trade and think like me. Your statement about him drafting the QB and WR isn't worthy of a reply, it's only you ranting.     3rd paragraph: again, your opinion, where you think you know more about Cable then the teams that hired him. Doubtful.       4th paragraph: again your opinion, but a fairly reasonable one. Again though you assume you know the overall talent on a 6-10 team better then its coach/GM, and have judged the rebuild 6 games into his first year. He's yet to accrue all the draft capital and cap space he wants, much less use it yet. C'mon.       5th paragraph: Maybe I am giving Gruden too much credit,, but with all the film he watched, and the interviews he did with Mahomes and his coaches for his ESPN QB series and his analyst roles, I think Gruden had a pretty good idea what Mahomes could be. I also think that the play of the Raider team so far, minus only Mack from last year, supports Gruden's decision to tear it down. That's my opinion 

 

Yes, I am smarter than the Raiders because no, I would not have hired Jon Gruden, who is a clown that hadn't coached since 2005, when the NFL was an entirely different sport.  Just like @HessStation and @JiF are well-documented to be much smarter than Mike Maccagnan, sometimes teams get things wrong and fans get them right.

Yes, most of what I said is opinion.  Because this is a message board, where people express opinions.  But your propping up of Gruden and Tom Cable because "The rest of the league would hire them" is silly.  Were the Chiefs smart to give Herm Edwards a HC job after he failed here?  Ditto for the Bills giving Rex a 2nd chance?  Of course they're not smart, and every Jets fan saw that coming.  Tom Cable's track record suggests he sucks at running Offensive Lines, and he's sucking in Oakland.  What a surprise!

And again, there's nooooo way you can argue the Raiders were planning to tank from the jump.  None.  If they were, they'd have begun the process of moving on from Carr already, especially with a talent-rich QB class this year, and traded Amari Cooper too.  The Mack trade was partly finances, as you mention earlier with your comment about him costing $20M per.  la

And have you noticed how after every game since Mack was traded, Gruden has complained about the lack of a pass rush generated by his defense?  Hmm.......

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43 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Yes, I am smarter than the Raiders because no, I would not have hired Jon Gruden, who is a clown that hadn't coached since 2005, when the NFL was an entirely different sport.  Just like @HessStation and @JiF are well-documented to be much smarter than Mike Maccagnan, sometimes teams get things wrong and fans get them right.

Yes, most of what I said is opinion.  Because this is a message board, where people express opinions.  But your propping up of Gruden and Tom Cable because "The rest of the league would hire them" is silly.  Were the Chiefs smart to give Herm Edwards a HC job after he failed here?  Ditto for the Bills giving Rex a 2nd chance?  Of course they're not smart, and every Jets fan saw that coming.  Tom Cable's track record suggests he sucks at running Offensive Lines, and he's sucking in Oakland.  What a surprise!

And again, there's nooooo way you can argue the Raiders were planning to tank from the jump.  None.  If they were, they'd have begun the process of moving on from Carr already, especially with a talent-rich QB class this year, and traded Amari Cooper too.  The Mack trade was partly finances, as you mention earlier with your comment about him costing $20M per.  la

And have you noticed how after every game since Mack was traded, Gruden has complained about the lack of a pass rush generated by his defense?  Hmm.......

Ok, so I guess we have to agree to disagree. Funny you mentioned Kotite. He's a neighbor of mine in a golf community in N. Myrtle Beach. He's actually a nice guy, and a good golfer. It was strange for me to have to separate the guy who golfs from the guy who coached us at first though, LOL.

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2 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Ok, so I guess we have to agree to disagree. Funny you mentioned Kotite. He's a neighbor of mine in a golf community in N. Myrtle Beach. He's actually a nice guy, and a good golfer. It was strange for me to have to separate the guy who golfs from the guy who coached us at first though, LOL.

Poly Prep's own.  My Dad played against him when he was going to Miami. 

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14 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

In all seriousness, I think there are plenty of posters on this board who are legitimately smarter than the Raiders. You could sit there on draft day with Mel Kiper/ESPN draft rankings and do a better job drafting than they have over the last 15 years.

Exactly.  Why do we always prop up these GM's and act like they're above criticism?  The "I'll trust a guy who's been in the business forever over some fan" argument is a tired one.  Why even have a message board if it's truly the case that these guys know what they're doing 100 % of the time?

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12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly.  Why do we always prop up these GM's and act like they're above criticism?  The "I'll trust a guy who's been in the business forever over some fan" argument is a tired one.  Why even have a message board if it's truly the case that these guys know what they're doing 100 % of the time?

Because in general the fans are even more stupid than the GMs

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49 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly.  Why do we always prop up these GM's and act like they're above criticism?  The "I'll trust a guy who's been in the business forever over some fan" argument is a tired one.  Why even have a message board if it's truly the case that these guys know what they're doing 100 % of the time?

The reason we have message boards, and why they are so popular, is because someone was brilliant enough to figure out you could make money giving guys who say "The "I'll trust a guy who's been in the business forever over some fan" argument is a tired one." a place to actually say things like that.

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15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

One big problem with this supposed plan: Gruden is awful when given the keys on personnel and draft decisions.

 

He traded away a 27-year old future HOF pass rusher, and will trade Cooper too, just so he can use those picks to draft a bust QB and WR.

 

And meanwhile, this supposed offensive genius is running the worst, most boring offense in the NFL. Against the Seahawks, Carr’s averaged “air yards” was 0.1, as nearly all of his throws were screen passes to RBs. Maybe that’s because the O-Line, run by the same Tom Cable whose lines were awful in Seattle, forced his hand. But does that also not at least partly fall on Gruden’s lap too?

 

A team with a young QB and elite pass rusher should not have been tanking. So if the plan was to tank the season, it’s a terrible plan. If that was not the case, then Gruden is doing a laughable job. He looks like a moron regardless. And he’s getting his QB killed in the process.

 

You’re giving Gruden wayyyyy too much credit. You really think he knew what Pat Mahomes would be from the jump? And because he read those tea leaves so well, he started this master plan to immediately turn the Raiders into a laughing stock on purpose? Come on.

Here's what amuses me with regard to trading Mack: what seemed like 90% of the people here said that what Chicago gave up was too much. I'm seeing some of those same people now flipping 180 degrees, valuing Mack over those draft picks (and mocking any decision otherwise, which literally nobody here did when the trade was made). And it was talked about plenty on JN because we made a (lower) offer or "inquired" at the time.

It's a hard sell to convince me that it was a no-brainer for the Raiders to build around Mack (turning down 2 Chicago 1sts and a 3rd and another $24m/yr to spend annually), while at the same time claim it was also shrewd of our perennially edge-rusher-challenged, cash-flush Jets to rebuild without Mack and instead keep similar pick value and cap space.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Exactly.  Why do we always prop up these GM's and act like they're above criticism?  The "I'll trust a guy who's been in the business forever over some fan" argument is a tired one.  Why even have a message board if it's truly the case that these guys know what they're doing 100 % of the time?

I don't think they're smarter than me or others.  Don't think they're beyond criticism or can't be wrong.

I do know that they have access to a whole lot more information than I do, anyone on this board does so should be able to make more informed decisions.  Just the way it is 

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22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Here's what amuses me with regard to trading Mack: what seemed like 90% of the people here said that what Chicago gave up was too much. I'm seeing some of those same people now flipping 180 degrees, valuing Mack over those draft picks (and mocking any decision otherwise, which literally nobody here did when the trade was made). And it was talked about plenty on JN because we made a (lower) offer or "inquired" at the time.

It's a hard sell to convince me that it was a no-brainer for the Raiders to build around Mack (turning down 2 Chicago 1sts and a 3rd and another $24m/yr to spend), while at the same time claim it was also shrewd of our perennially edge-rusher-challenged, cash-flush Jets to rebuild without Mack and instead keep similar pick value and cap space.

I agree, but the issue is more with putting people on the block.  If you do that you seem like you are having a fire sale and then tanking the season.  That seems kind of rough for a team that was 12-3 in 2016 when Carr got hurt.  Yeah, they lost the wild card game, but hell they were on their 3rd string QB.  They were 6-6 in 2017 and as the Gruden rumors got hopped up they dropped their last 4.  Gruden was supposed to return them to 2016 level, not blow it up and trade Mack while offering up Amari Cooper, and Karl Joseph.  He'd already cut Melifonwu and Walford and did his best to alienate Donald Penn.  

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@#27TheDominator

It seems clear to me that he's decided to do a full tear-down/rebuild. Otherwise nobody trades away Mack today for future draft picks next year and the year after. Now how that'll end up once the rebuild part of it kicks in remains to be seen. But strategically, this is the perfect year for him to do it. That doesn't mean he's losing games on purpose. That's just because of bad play, bad coaching, or both; not because they're tanking for a higher draft pick

The Oakland fans' feelings and "fire him" websites are meaningless with the team moving away as early as next year. Plus he'll use that mulligan year (maybe 2) in Oakland to get out from under some inherited contracts he no longer wants. He says they're not tanking, but c'mon like anyone would admit it, even though trading Mack for future picks clearly demonstrates they're not giving their all for this season, in favor of a better future.

I've watched exactly half of one Raiders game this year. Not nearly enough to armchair judge him on situational coaching (managing timeouts, when to decide this or that option in-game). It's possible it takes him a season to get back into the swing after being in a broadcast booth for a decade (e.g. Joe Gibbs), or is using this year as an extended tryout to see who he wants to keep and toss for his own reasons.

At the same time, judging from the early returns out there, it's also quite possible none of this rationalization holds water, and he'll continue to look like an enormous mistake before getting fired 3 years into a 10 year contract. That would be pretty sweet on two fronts: one, because f*** the Raiders whom I've always hated; and two, because there's no regret in not tying ourselves to him for a decade so Bowles could get an undeserved extension.

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