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Seymour knows less about football then we thought.


RSJ

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Here's the deal, from someone who saw every QB from Namath on

Joe Namath was arguably the most talented QB who ever lived ... but his career was racked by injuries {serious, career ending type of injuries in those days and even now to some extent} and he was a shell of his former self at an age when most QB's are just entering their prime

But when he was healthy Joe Namath had the type of talent OTHER GREAT QUARTERBACKS marveled at

Wtaching him throw the football ... even in warm-ups ... was like watching Babe Ruth taking BP ... other GREAT PLAYERS would stop and watch, and his talent was jaw-dropping

But alas he is the Kellen Winslow or Gale Sayers of QB's ... jaw-dropping talent but a career cut short by injuries, thus his career stats will never tell you how great he was

For that you have to be a historian ... you have to know how his peers viewed him {when healthy} ... you have to watch film of Namath when he was right

Bear Bryant called him the greatest football player {at any position} he ever coached

Vince Lombardi called him THE PERFECT QUARTERBACK and the greatest passer of the football he had ever seen

Johnny Unitas said he was in awe of Namath's talent

Dan Marino, till this day, calls Namath his idol and the reason he wanted to play Quarterback ... said that was true of every QB from Western PA

Roger Staubach was also in awe of his talent

And the list is endless

But you don't need any of that if you are a student of the game ... you need only watch Namath on film ... till this day I HAVE NEVER seen anyone who can throw the football with Joe Namath at his peak

He threw the most beautiful TIGHT SPIRAL I have ever seen ... and I'm talkin long distances ... this man could literally launch the ball 60 or 70 Yards in the air with the flick of his wrist, on a tight spiral ... a spiral that spun like a top ... that ball looked like a spinning missile

And his form was perfect ... from his drop back, to his set, to his throwing motion, to his lightning quick release ... all picture perfect

Till this day I would suggest to any youngster who wishes to play QB that he should study Joe Namath's mechanics ... his mechanics were PERFECT

And when that ball was spinning like a top ... cutting through the air {and the strong winds at Shea} like an ICBM ... it really was a site to behold

I can see why Lombardi called him THE PERFECT PASSER ... I AGREE ... 30+ Years later and its still the closest thing to perfection I have seen on a football field

Not Marino, not Elway, not Bradshaw, not Fouts, etc etc ... NOBODY could throw a football like Joe Namath at his peak, and NOBODY looked prettier doing it {i.e. had better mechanics}

Um, unfortunately, I have to totally agree with Hammer on this.

No one threw a more perfect football than Joe Namath.

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Brady is over-rated until he has to do it by himself. In fairness, you could make the same assessment about, in a way, about Montana, but Brady has never had to face and beat the teams that Montana had to beat--the Johnson Cowboys; the Parcells Giants; the John Robinson Rams. Who has Bradu beaten? The Martz Rams? Please.

That was real weak TS.

You are better than that.

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Here's the problem with using stats to judge a QB prior to the rule changes that turned football from rugby into the Coryell flying circus:

Johnny Unitas, widely considered the best QB of all time:

~Threw more TD's than INT's in only 8 of his 18 seasons.

~Completed less than 55% of his passes career

~In the 16 seasons where he played significant time, he averaged a paltry 2514 yards. Per SEASON.

~Finished with only 290 TD's against 253 INT's.

Imagine Brady or Pennington trying to find open receivers downfield against a defense that can chuck and hold all over the field. This is not to say that Namath was an amazing technician at QB. It only means that the standard--Unitas--is significantly lower than what alot of recent critics want to compare Namath's numbers to, such as Montana's or Manning's. You just can't do it.

Excellent points Tom.

If I may add there were 26 teams and 14 games when Namath passed for 4000 yards in a season. If you contracts 6 teams and cut the season to 14 games what would Brady and all the modern day qb's stats look like? Not very good that's how. And it is amazing that seymour won't look at passing stats when comparing Brady to Manning but does when comparing everyone else. Again not only is Jim Kelly, Bart Starr and Steve Young on that list but so is Johnny Unitas and it is supposed to be a poll for QB's in the super bowl era. This guy has no clue about anything and began watching football somewhere between 1998 and 2001 I'm convinced.

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yes and no. if viateiri had made just 1 of those field goals I am pretty sure the pats would have won the game anyways, but then everything else in the game changes etc etc

Wrong. Missed 1st half FG's have nothing to do with an outcome of a football game.

If Brady didn't pull a PennyBoyWonder and throw a stupid pick in the 4th quarter, the Pats would have cruised in that game.

It's all a moot point anyway, the Pats won the game. :wink:

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Yeah, sure Chad can make all those throws. They just take 2 hours to get there.

with weis as his coordinator, yes. pennington can make all the throws that brady can, and hell pennington put brien in position to kick the 1st missed field goal did he not?

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with weis as his coordinator, yes. pennington can make all the throws that brady can, and hell pennington put brien in position to kick the 1st missed field goal did he not?

barton, probably the dumbest thing you have ever said.

There is no way PennyBoySissy can make the same throws Brady can.

Not even friggn' close.

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The funny thing about Brady is you could have the same conversation in the 1980's just insert Phil Simms name where Brady's is. Both are good QB's but neither will be legends when all is said and done. Brady has trouble enough convincing everyone he is better than current day QB's like Manning, McNabb and Favre let alone all time greats.

It is amazing what this coaching staff does to make QB's look way better than they are. Ray Lucas 6-2, Testeverde 14-1, Jeff Hostetler, Phil Simms and the list goes on.

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I am a big fan of Tom Brady's. I respect him highly. Everybody knows that.

How many superbowls did Belichick win with Bernie Kosar/Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe.

The answer is none.

Now name me the hall of fame or even all pro players that Tom Brady has played with.

The answer is none.

So before people start ripping Brady. Think about those two things and then we can argue.

As far as RS's problems with another poster goes. RS is a super football addict. The guy loves this game. He never gets tired of talking about it. He's got a presence on every message board on the internet.

He's probably registered for a few Frankfurt Galaxy message boards discussing how Akili Smith measures up to Rohan Davey............................

I like Seymour. He's good people.

Joe Namath is an all time great but Jets fans overhype him a bit. As far as throwing the football, There may have been none better. Only guys, I can think of are Dan Marino and John Elway.

Elway was the better overall athlete than those two guys.

Jim Kelly was a very good QB. Can't put him in the great class. I give him credit for having great success and longevity and I give him credit for playing well as an outdoor QB. He was a good bad weather QB in the pros. That counts for something in my book. See Peyton Manning.

Hard to judge Steve Young because he came on so late and everything was so tailor made for him. For a 3 year stretch, He was as close to perfect as possible in that Niners offense. He's going to the hall of fame based on how perfectly he played the position for a 3 to 5 year stretch.

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He's probably registered for a few Frankfurt Galaxy message boards discussing how Akili Smith measures up to Rohan Davey............................

For crying out loud, YJF has even brought a sense of humor over to this board.

That is a classic line.

:lol::lol::lol:

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I am a big fan of Tom Brady's. I respect him highly. Everybody knows that.

How many superbowls did Belichick win with Bernie Kosar/Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe.

The answer is none.

Now name me the hall of fame or even all pro players that Tom Brady has played with.

The answer is none.

Belicheck didn't have this coaching staff nor did he have the opportunity to win with Testeverde due to the distraction of the move in cleveland.

As far as HOF'ers go I will say that Ty Law, and Vinitiari.

YJF, I don't know if you remember when this staff was with the Jets but the way they coach utilizes everyone on the rosters strength.The Question of comparing Brady to Manning really starts at whether a patriot fan would trade their whole team and coaching staff and keep Tom Brady for the Colts team and coaching staff and they get to keep Manning. The answer to that from most Pats fans would be no. Then break it down to the offense and the answer should also be no.

When comparing the Pats offense to the Colts you can't break it down as Edge vs. Dillon. It is really Edge vs. Dillon, K Faulk, and P Pass. The Patriot group is much stronger as a whole. Each one does one or even two things extremly well. This work for all positions on the Pats. Would I trade the Colts starting 22 for the Pats? No Way. But would I trade the Colts 23-53 for the Pats? Absofreakinlutly.

Look fellas this is a coaching staff that won with Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testeverde and even the immortal Ray Lucas. They are a coaching staff that has been together for 20 plus year and they know that you need to use everyone on your roster in order to be succesfull.

Lets not sit here and underestimate what a great defense does for a QB. On 3rd and 10 if you are Peyton Manning you need to make that tough throw to try and gain enough for the first down knowing that you may not get the ball back without the other teams scoring. But Tom Brady can dump it off and punt realizing that the defense will likely stop the other team and he will get another shot. Ask a Pats fan why they dislike Charlie Weis so much? It is because of his conservative playcalling. But what those fans don't realize or choose not to realize is their coaching staff does realizes who they have at QB and who they have running the defense. Not everyone can make the throws Manning does 3rd and long. Those 3rd and long throws past the first marker are the hardest throws to complete in the NFL.

IMO Peyton is a worlds better than Brady and it's not even close.

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Belicheck didn't have this coaching staff nor did he have the opportunity to win with Testeverde due to the distraction of the move in cleveland.

As far as HOF'ers go I will say that Ty Law, and Vinitiari.

YJF, I don't know if you remember when this staff was with the Jets but the way they coach utilizes everyone on the rosters strength.The Question of comparing Brady to Manning really starts at whether a patriot fan would trade their whole team and coaching staff and keep Tom Brady for the Colts team and coaching staff and they get to keep Manning. The answer to that from most Pats fans would be no. Then break it down to the offense and the answer should also be no.

When comparing the Pats offense to the Colts you can't break it down as Edge vs. Dillon. It is really Edge vs. Dillon, K Faulk, and P Pass. The Patriot group is much stronger as a whole. Each one does one or even two things extremly well. This work for all positions on the Pats. Would I trade the Colts starting 22 for the Pats? No Way. But would I trade the Colts 23-53 for the Pats? Absofreakinlutly.

Look fellas this is a coaching staff that won with Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testeverde and even the immortal Ray Lucas. They are a coaching staff that has been together for 20 plus year and they know that you need to use everyone on your roster in order to be succesfull.

Lets not sit here and underestimate what a great defense does for a QB. On 3rd and 10 if you are Peyton Manning you need to make that tough throw to try and gain enough for the first down knowing that you may not get the ball back without the other teams scoring. But Tom Brady can dump it off and punt realizing that the defense will likely stop the other team and he will get another shot. Ask a Pats fan why they dislike Charlie Weis so much? It is because of his conservative playcalling. But what those fans don't realize or choose not to realize is their coaching staff does realizes who they have at QB and who they have running the defense. Not everyone can make the throws Manning does 3rd and long. Those 3rd and long throws past the first marker are the hardest throws to complete in the NFL.

IMO Peyton is a worlds better than Brady and it's not even close.

You made alot of points there sherry. You are not alone in your views of Tom Brady. Most people would pick Manning but I wouldn't. I'm a Jets fan and let me tell you something if my QB won 3 superbowls for me, I'm defending him until my dying day.

The Pats don't win a superbowl without Tom Brady. During this great run, Brady has made so many individual plays by himself that have helped The Pats win.

Trust me, What seperates Tom Brady from the other QB's like Manning. I'll tell you what does. His performance when the game is on the line.

Brady has not played with superstar RB's until last year with Dillon, He hasn't played with an all world offensive line or hall of fame WR's.

The Pats don't blow teams out. They don't win those close games if not for Brady. If some other QB is there like Manning. I don't think he makes the plays that Brady has. I've never seen Manning in a big spot step up and carry his team. I've seen Brady do it.

Keep that in mind when comparing Brady to Manning or anyone else.

You know as great as The Pats staff is and it is GREAT. You don't just win with coaching. You need players to execute your gameplan.

The Pats were 31st in the league against the run in 2002. That's with Belichick, Romeo and Mangini and company. Coaching did them no good that year.

I'm not convinced that any QB can win a superbowl with that staff because no other QB has.

Plus, the mistake people make is treating Brady like a Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. Those guys did good jobs but the rest of team picked them up and raised the level of their play.

Brady is the catalyst for that offense. Without him. Pats don't win.

Even if you don't think, He's a great QB.

Can't deny undefeated in the playoffs and 3 superbowl rings.

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You made alot of points there sherry. You are not alone in your views of Tom Brady. Most people would pick Manning but I wouldn't. I'm a Jets fan and let me tell you something if my QB won 3 superbowls for me, I'm defending him until my dying day.

The Pats don't win a superbowl without Tom Brady. During this great run, Brady has made so many individual plays by himself that have helped The Pats win.

Trust me, What seperates Tom Brady from the other QB's like Manning. I'll tell you what does. His performance when the game is on the line.

Brady has not played with superstar RB's until last year with Dillon, He hasn't played with an all world offensive line or hall of fame WR's.

The Pats don't blow teams out. They don't win those close games if not for Brady. If some other QB is there like Manning. I don't think he makes the plays that Brady has. I've never seen Manning in a big spot step up and carry his team. I've seen Brady do it.

Keep that in mind when comparing Brady to Manning or anyone else.

You know as great as The Pats staff is and it is GREAT. You don't just win with coaching. You need players to execute your gameplan.

The Pats were 31st in the league against the run in 2002. That's with Belichick, Romeo and Mangini and company. Coaching did them no good that year.

I'm not convinced that any QB can win a superbowl with that staff because no other QB has.

Plus, the mistake people make is treating Brady like a Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson. Those guys did good jobs but the rest of team picked them up and raised the level of their play.

Brady is the catalyst for that offense. Without him. Pats don't win.

Even if you don't think, He's a great QB.

Can't deny undefeated in the playoffs and 3 superbowl rings.

Excellent post YoungPatsFan. :wink:

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Oh c'mon now!! This thread started out great ith rip roaring back and forth fighting and then Ham has to ruin it by making sense. God dammit start fighting again!! :evil::evil: Seymour your mom an suck a golf ball through a garden hose. And so can you Tom Shane. Bring it!!!

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Oh c'mon now!! This thread started out great ith rip roaring back and forth fighting and then Ham has to ruin it by making sense. God dammit start fighting again!! :evil::evil: Seymour your mom an suck a golf ball through a garden hose. And so can you Tom Shane. Bring it!!!

Ham is JetNation's jg with regards to highjacked threads.

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So you are telling me that no other kicker in the NFL could have made that kick? On the same hand, do you think Pennington could have led the Patriots into FG range in the first place?

I was referring more to the kicks he made in the AFC championship game in the snow. There is no kicker on the Jets roster who could make those. Maybe someone like Akers or Vanderjagt would have.

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Jets fans are amazing.

Since Brady led the Patriots to their first title, the resonating sound out of Jets'fans mouths was, "Brady is fluke. He has to proove it he can do it again. He Dilfered he way to the Superbowl, he only led them on two touchdown drives in three games."

All he has done in the three subsequent seasons is throw for 11,000 more yards, 79 TDs and only 40 INTs, win six more playoff games and two more superbowls. Over those six playoff wins against teams with a combined record of 75-21, all he has done is: 130-207 1379 yards 10 TDs and 2 INTs for a nifty little 94.2 QB rating. His team is 43-11 over the same span.

I do not know if it was this thread or another one of the 1000 Chad and/or Brady threads between the two boards, I firmly believe some of you would not recognize a great QB if he bit you in the ass.

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Jets fans are amazing.

Since Brady led the Patriots to their first title, the resonating sound out of Jets'fans mouths was, "Brady is fluke. He has to proove it he can do it again. He Dilfered he way to the Superbowl, he only led them on two touchdown drives in three games."

All he has done in the three subsequent seasons is throw for 11,000 more yards, 79 TDs and only 40 INTs, win six more playoff games and two more superbowls. Over those six playoff wins against teams with a combined record of 75-21, all he has done is: 130-207 1379 yards 10 TDs and 2 INTs for a nifty little 94.2 QB rating. His team is 43-11 over the same span.

I do not know if it was this thread or another one of the 1000 Chad and/or Brady threads between the two boards, I firmly believe some of you would not recognize a great QB if he bit you in the a$$.

It's not just Jet fans that feel this way. As a matter of fact I would say most football fans feel this way. They is no reason to hate on a Pats player. Most here will and would have admitted the pats coaching staff is the best as well as some of their players. Just not brady.

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It's not just Jet fans that feel this way. As a matter of fact I would say most football fans feel this way. They is no reason to hate on a Pats player. Most here will and would have admitted the pats coaching staff is the best as well as some of their players. Just not brady.

So you are the voice for most football fans? :roll:

It is funny most of the people on TV from former players to the mainstream media seem to think Brady is a pretty good QB. Short of the idiot fringe like Skip Bayless, some even think he is Canton material right now. Now that is premature, but still name another QB that after 5 years that has his resume? Face it you can not. Any argument you make is weak.

It is his coaching staff. What effect did the coaching staffs have on Bradshaw, Aikman, Montana or whomever you bring up?

It is his supporting cast. Ok, most admit the Patriots talent wise can not compare to any past dynasty because of the salary cap. They do not have the ability to maintain the depth the past dynasties had.

The only weak ass argument you have is he does not put up Madden type Manning numbers. :roll: You know what, until prooven otherwise, the only place Manning can win a Superbowl is in Madden.

TS - Answer me this, do you think the Texans would be closer then they are now? You know the answer and it is yes.

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So you are the voice for most football fans? :roll:

It is funny most of the people on TV from former players to the mainstream media seem to think Brady is a pretty good QB. Short of the idiot fringe like Skip Bayless, some even think he is Canton material right now. Now that is premature, but still name another QB that after 5 years that has his resume? Face it you can not. Any argument you make is weak.

It is his coaching staff. What effect did the coaching staffs have on Bradshaw, Aikman, Montana or whomever you bring up?

It is his supporting cast. Ok, most admit the Patriots talent wise can not compare to any past dynasty because of the salary cap. They do not have the ability to maintain the depth the past dynasties had.

The only weak a$$ argument you have is he does not put up Madden type Manning numbers. :roll: You know what, until prooven otherwise, the only place Manning can win a Superbowl is in Madden.

TS - Answer me this, do you think the Texans would be closer then they are now? You know the answer and it is yes.

:lol::lol:

here you go again pfkbitch. can't have an argument without insulting someone. Well I hate to tell you but it is not only my voice that says this is true but it is most peoples. If you put down that tom brady blow up doll down for a second you would realize it is true.

As for the Madden comment I have made plenty of arguements on here and none of them had to do with Mannings numbers vs Brady's. There is no comparison there.

Your comment about the Texans is almost as laughable as the picture I get of you in a uniform making love to a brady poster.

homo

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You made alot of points there sherry. You are not alone in your views of Tom Brady. Most people would pick Manning but I wouldn't. I'm a Jets fan and let me tell you something if my QB won 3 superbowls for me, I'm defending him until my dying day.

The Pats don't win a superbowl without Tom Brady. During this great run, Brady has made so many individual plays by himself that have helped The Pats win.

Trust me, What seperates Tom Brady from the other QB's like Manning. I'll tell you what does. His performance when the game is on the line.

That part of the Post is so True!! Brady comes

though when the Chips are down!! In Short the Man

is a winner..No crybaby 8 man front excuses for

Brady!! Maybe your starting to see what I mean

when I talk about...Certain players who don't

come up Big..Hmmmm :lol:

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:lol::lol:

here you go again pfkbitch. can't have an argument without insulting someone. Well I hate to tell you but it is not only my voice that says this is true but it is most peoples. If you put down that tom brady blow up doll down for a second you would realize it is true.

As for the Madden comment I have made plenty of arguements on here and none of them had to do with Mannings numbers vs Brady's. There is no comparison there.

Your comment about the Texans is almost as laughable as the picture I get of you in a uniform making love to a brady poster.

homo

pfkbitch............YOU JUST GOT OWNED!!!

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:lol::lol:

here you go again pfkbitch. can't have an argument without insulting someone. Well I hate to tell you but it is not only my voice that says this is true but it is most peoples. If you put down that tom brady blow up doll down for a second you would realize it is true.

As for the Madden comment I have made plenty of arguements on here and none of them had to do with Mannings numbers vs Brady's. There is no comparison there.

Your comment about the Texans is almost as laughable as the picture I get of you in a uniform making love to a brady poster.

homo

How did I insult you?

If your opinion, as you proclaim, is the same as the vast majority of football fans on this planet, then you would not be a part of the 'idiot fringe' now would you? :roll: Do you understand what that means? :roll:

Other then speaken for 'everyone' I have seen few arguments in regards to this from you. However do not take my word, take the word of this board. Here is a recent thread. What are your arguments?

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1316&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=manning

Here are some posts:

l_j_r - ... can't argue with the rings...

PETROCKAs great of a QB Manning is and if I were a HC I would love to have him on my team, but he has never made it to a SB.

As much as it pains me to say it, I would have to go with Brady because he knows how to win.

Uuuuh I can't believe I gave props to a Pats player.

shawn306Brady gets the nod. Manning has the numbers, Brady has the rings. Brady though has proven to be one of if not THE best post season QB of all-time.

GoJetsManning has to do more than Brady for his team to win. No doubt Brady is a great QB but he plays on a better team than Manning. If Manning played on the Patriots his record would be just as good as Brady's and his numbers would be closer to Brady's than the number he puts up.

GimmieShelterThere's always going to be more talented QB's than Brady, just as was the case with Montana.

Big game, you want Montana and Brady.

Jetsfan80But the fact remains that Tom Brady has not been the losing quarterback in a postseason game. It is impossible to make the judgement based on speculation that Manning is the better quarterback when that fact is staring you right in the face.

jetgreen13anyway, brady vs. manning is a tough call. brady has all the rings, but manning plays on a team with a non superbowl D. IMO, if they had flipped flopped teams 4 years ago, manning would have had similar success. slight edge to manning.

That is only the first page. So it is not clearly Manning, Favre, McNabb or any other QB that is clearly better as you say. You see that is called backing up a statement with proof, not same baseless proclamation that 'everyone' is in agreement with you. IF you honestly believe that David Carr led Texans' team would be bette then a Brady led Texans' team, you do not know anything about football and have no credibility what so ever.

BTW nice stooping to my level with insults loser.

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How did I insult you?

If your opinion, as you proclaim, is the same as the vast majority of football fans on this planet, then you would not be a part of the 'idiot fringe' now would you? :roll: Do you understand what that means? :roll:

This isn't an insult?

You constantly are insulting and bad at it too.

Try going to page 3 of this thread to see my argument or maybe you missed it.

Oh yeah and keep being all you can be ass clown.

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YJF hit it out of the park

=D>

There really isn't a better way to put it. Masterfully put YJF.

If Brady has 8 more years like this he'll finish with 40,000 yards, 300 touchdowns, 150 INTs, 27-0 playoff record, 9 superbowls....

but hey, Charlie Weis is the greatest OC in history right? It's all him and the system he leaves behind...

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YJF hit it out of the park

=D>

There really isn't a better way to put it. Masterfully put YJF.

If Brady has 8 more years like this he'll finish with 40,000 yards, 300 touchdowns, 150 INTs, 27-0 playoff record, 9 superbowls....

but hey, Charlie Weis is the greatest OC in history right? It's all him and the system he leaves behind...

i would'nt hold my breath waiting for brady to get those #'s.
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