I go back and forth on who will be fired

[Stark]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

Both should be fired, no questions asked.  I have no doubt Todd's blueprints are all over this roster.  

Todd Bowles - literally provides zero value to this organization.  It may be a shock to Jets fans who have endured personalities like Herm and Rex but most coaches are like Todd.  So his demeanor, is not a value.  

Big Mac - has Sam Darnold on his resume and that's it.  The problem is (and isnt a knock on my boo Sam), this teams starting offense could be the Chiefs.  The Jets could have had Mahomes, Hunt and Hill.  They could have had Watson and Fuller and Mixon.  They could be loaded and instead, they invested heavily into a really bad D.

That's fireable in this day in age. 

F'n right on... I was basically saying this in the post following

[Paradis]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

The guy just got the franchise QB we have been looking for. I don't see how he gets fired.

you don't see  how he gets fired????  DID YOU SLEEP THROUGH THE MACC THREAD?? We have the lowest number of players on contract next year and absolutely atrocious success rate in the draft.

WE JUST RELEASED 2 WRS IN YEAR TWO. 

Kill them all

 

[UntouchableCrew]

If they go 8-8 nobody gets fired. They spend big in FA and management expects playoffs in 2019.

If they go 7-9, I think they're probably both safe.

If they go 5-11 or worse, I think they might clean house.

6-10 is probably the soft spot where it could go either way... I think Bowles gets fired at 6-10.

I think this Dolphins game is big for Bowles. You don't want to get swept by a mediocre hated rival and if he wins this they can beat Buffalo at home and be 5-5 entering a BYE week where the team can get healthy and spend two weeks preparing for the Pats. If they lose to the Dolphins it's hard to see this team sniffing .500

[Apache 51]

When will some of you realize this is a regular company for ownership, peoples families, lives and careers are at stake this is a hobby not a priority.

[RVAJet815]

1 hour ago, Lith said:

No half measures.  They are in it together as the leadership of this team.  Macc and Bowles together have built what we have now.  Lack of playmakers on either side of the ball, no depth on the offense, shopping in the bargain bin for OL and weapons when the plan was to draft a rookie QB,  All that is on Macc.  As for Bowles, same mistake over and over and over again.  Bad penalties, playing to keep games close instead of to win, breakdowns on defense.  It is the same story week after week after week.  Time to move on from both.

At least that is what I want.  Unfortunately, I do not see it happening.  I think both staying is more likley than both going.

 

 

I'll play devil's advocate here...they weren't installed together, why should the go together? I want Macc to go, primarily for the terrible draft record. However, one can easily make the case that he is entitled the chance to finish the rebuild with the coach of his choosing.

[Augustiniak]

Mccagnan - there is no way mccagnan is getting fired this offseason.  he made a great trade to get darnold.  herndon is good and a few other draft picks have flashed, and we're going to see more of cannon in the 2nd half of the season and who knows what he can do when bowles can't hide him.  mccagnan's timeframe has been extended b/c of darnold and a few other high profile picks like adams and lee playing well.  fair or unfair, mccagnan has at least 2 more years here.

Bowles - i think the next 2 weeks are critical for him.  if they go down to miami and have another dud, play wimpy and don't score and lose, then he's coaching for his job vs the bills before the bye.  i think if they lose both games they could fire bowles during the bye week, but even if they don't, heading into the bye with 4 straight losses before they even played the pats once basically seals his fate here.

[bitonti]

List of things Woody Johnson doesn't want pay for 

1) Buy out of Bowles

2) Buy out of Mac

3) The management consulting firm he'd have to hire to find their replacements

4) Their replacements

 

@Maxman back and forth? Buddy no one's getting fired and 8-8 would be an argument for coach of the year. this is half a roster with tons of cap space and no stars. Bowles shouldn't be winning any of these games. 

[sec101row23]

31 minutes ago, JiF said:

Both should be fired, no questions asked.  I have no doubt Todd's blueprints are all over this roster.  

Todd Bowles - literally provides zero value to this organization.  It may be a shock to Jets fans who have endured personalities like Herm and Rex but most coaches are like Todd.  So his demeanor, is not a value.  

Big Mac - has Sam Darnold on his resume and that's it.  The problem is (and isnt a knock on my boo Sam), this teams starting offense could be the Chiefs.  The Jets could have had Mahomes, Hunt and Hill.  They could have had Watson and Fuller and Mixon.  They could be loaded and instead, they invested heavily into a really bad D.

That's fireable in this day in age. 

That’s my biggest criticism of Maccagnan.  In this day and age of dynamic offense, he seems to have placed little value in obtaining these players.  The Stewart pick is still such a head scratcher, what was he looking at?  That philosophy scares the hell out of me, especially now that we have a legit QB prospect.  

[JetsFanatic]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

I seriously go back and forth, round and round. 

Bowles is getting fired. He deserves it. Macc is safe, he drafted Darnold. They have a young nucleus on defense with Adams, Maye, Williams, Lee, T. Johnson, Sheperd and Avery Williamson. 

But wait, the offense is so bad, Macc is going to get fired for that.

Both Macc and Bowles are getting fired.

Then I look at the remaining schedule:

 

The remaining opponents have a record of 31 and 30.

You have the Patriots twice. Let's say the Jets lose both games, that gives them 7 losses on the year. But the opponents other than that are 19 and 26.

The Dolphins and Bills have QB issues right now. If the Jets win both of those games a .500 record would come down to winning 2 of 3 against the Titans, Packers and Texans. Two of which are at home.

It is a big if, but does anyone get fired if they get to 8 and 8 on the year?

I know wins and losses aren't the most important thing. But I don't see them firing anyone at 8 and 8. Granted the argument can be easily made that they won't sniff 8 wins, but I think they have a shot at it.

So I go round and round on who will be fired. It is frustrating, next year though they have to load up this offense and give Darnold some weapons.

 

IMO Bowles in more trouble than Mac. If Bowles doesn’t win at least 7 games with team showing definite improvement, I think he’s gone. I could be wrong but I don’t believe Mac is in any trouble at this time.

[C Mart]

5 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

That’s my biggest criticism of Maccagnan.  In this day and age of dynamic offense, he seems to have placed little value in obtaining these players.  The Stewart pick is still such a head scratcher, what was he looking at?  That philosophy scares the hell out of me, especially now that we have a legit QB prospect.  

I get the Stewart/Hanson debacle. 

JMO. The rebuild plan pitched was solidify the D as much as possible, get the FQB, and then go heavy in FA & draft on the O side. 

I mean doesn’t that appear to be the plan just by looking how this team is now?  

Darnold is the real deal so Mcc isn’t going anywhere until next yr if his final phase of his rebuild doesn’t produce an uptick on the O side. 

[Jetstream]

I think the fact that Mac didn't even try to address receiver or pass rusher is an indicator of him feeling safe... I think if he felt like he was on a hot seat he would have made some moves to today and not worried about saving picks...  but this move (or lack there of) does make the Bowles firing more possible... I hope.

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

But if they go 8 and 8 and have 100 million in cap room wouldn't that make the case for both staying?

The cap room is more of a reason to fire them. The job will be more appealing. 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, RaoulDuke said:

Honest question: when a draft pick doesn't pan out, where's the line between bad scouting and bad coaching? 

 

Maybe a guy like Adarius Stewart could have become servcieable at the least.

 

Who's the last late round pick that was groomed by this coaching staff into a legit starter?

Ardarius Stewart is currently unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Chad Hansen is also unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Devin Smith is currently unemployed.  Bryce Petty is currently unemployed.  Lorenzo Maudlin is currently unemployed.  Jarvis Harrison plays for the Sasketchewan Roughriders.  Christian Hackenberg is currently on his 3rd practice squad.  Juston Burris was released, signed by no-one, and is now on the Jets practice squad.  Jordan Leggett is still a Jet, but has already been replaced.  Dylan Donahue is currently unemployed.

In other words, there is not a single Macc draft pick that is not currently on this roster, who is playing football for another NFL team.  Hard to say coaching squandered talent when no other teams are even knocking at the door of that talent.

[sec101row23]

15 minutes ago, C Mart said:

I get the Stewart/Hanson debacle. 

JMO. The rebuild plan pitched was solidify the D as much as possible, get the FQB, and then go heavy in FA & draft on the O side. 

I mean doesn’t that appear to be the plan just by looking how this team is now?  

Darnold is the real deal so Mcc isn’t going anywhere until next yr if his final phase of his rebuild doesn’t produce an uptick on the O side. 

We’ll see.  Not sure that the “plan” to solidify the defense at the expense of passing on offense was the actual plan, or just the result of bad decisions.  

[GangGreenDover]

What if Mac realizes himself that Bowles isn’t the right coach for this team??? Maybe just following along his plan to get his own coaching staff on board 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

I seriously go back and forth, round and round. 

I do not.  I have seen nothing to-date that would validate rentention of either Bowles or Macc.

With that said, I do not believe EITHER will be fired by this Jets Organization.

I'll have to see it, before I would believe it, at this point.

IMO the Jets need to fire both, THEN hire a respected General manager who will THEN hire HIS choice for Head Coach who will then (with GM oversight) hire HIS choices of assistant coaches.  The idea of the co-equal, both-report-to-owner, GM+HC system is a proven failure here.

[bostonmajet]

1 hour ago, carlito1171 said:

I think Ultimately unless we go on a crazy win streak to end the season Bowles will probably be fired. I think 6-10 or less does him in....7-9 or better might save him 

I think Mac should go as well, but with him drafting the future of the franchise(and maneuvering to get him) I think unfortunately he’s safe. Not sure if anyone worth having would take the job after we just fired the guy who just drafted the franchise’s future. So unfortunately he will pick the new coach, will spend the 100mil, and draft the parts to go around Darnold. 

I don't think the record as much as Darnold's growth (or his growing frustration) is more likely to be the determining factory in whether or not Bowles stays. Personally, I think there is NO hope that Bowles will turn out to be a good let alone great coach and he needs to be gone for the Jets to ever regularly contend. Not only is he a don't loose big, have D keep you in the game type of coach in the era of high scoring offenses, he has not learned to put games away, how to manage TOs, or when to punt. You don't want to try and convert a gun-slinger into a game manager. He needs to be gone.

As far as Mac is concerned. It is hard to call him great, but I don't think people realize how bad the Jets were (or the 2015 draft class). I also think many fans have an unrealistic expectation of what makes a good GM. Good/great GMs miss on drafts all of the time. The question isn't how much has he missed on (and he has his share of whiffs and head-scratchers), but how his record compares to other good GMs. Also, this team was not only bad when he took over, but it was a train wreck and accelerating downwards. Just slowing the decent takes a lot of work. Consider that the 2 best OL where aging rapidly when he took over and he had to build the entire OL in 4 years with little quality in the draft and even less available in FA. The Solder deal shows just how much bad teams will overpay for mediocre and declining talent.

However, even grading him on a curve, there is a lot of evidence that he has not been a top notch GM. The questions are two fold: is he getting better/learning and does landing a franchise QB enough to buy him another 2 years? He does appear to be doing better with maybe this past draft as his best one ever - the question is he really getting better or is Heimerdinger the real reason for improvement? As for landing Darnold, yes the Giants and the Browns screwed up, but Macc put us in position to get either Darnold or Mayfield by giving up very little - this is a victory that all but the most anit-Macc fans will give him credit for. Also, although many of his FA have not worked out (again it would be interesting to see how other GMs do), most of the worst signings are on deals that let us walk away after a few years. He needs to get credit for that as well as some of his trades and UDFA signings.

In the end, I could go either way on his future at the Jets. The only reason I would def. dump him is if we are at risk of loosing Brian and we believe he was the key to all of the success, in which case, you dump/'promote' mac and give Heimerdinger the GM job. Otherwise, my guess, he gets 2 more years.

That being said, with a franchise QB, a likely top 10 pick, and 100 million in cap, if a worthy GM candidate is available, this is a pretty good gig unlike the past (as long as the new GM gets to fire/hire the HC).

[TheGreenGhost]

Quickest answer is if the Jets lose to both Miami (Osweiler) and Buffalo (Possibly Pietermen), they're both gone. 

I personally believe if they lose to Buffalo, they're both gone.  Both deserve to be fired. 

Bowles is a terrible coach with no situational awareness, no adjustments and no accountability. 

Macc's lucky that Leo, Lee and Darnold fell into his lap.  There was nothing to think about with those picks. They were no brainers.  Every other pick he's made is garbage and he hasn't fared much better in free agency either.  The Jets roster save a few spots is complete trash.  Many of these guys would not be starters anywhere else.

[C Mart]

18 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

We’ll see.  Not sure that the “plan” to solidify the defense at the expense of passing on offense was the actual plan, or just the result of bad decisions.  

I was trying to say, poorly, is until they felt they had the FQB, they weren't going to go all in on the O...By all in, I mean major FA$$ & premium picks. But again Stewart turned out to be a bad pick..we'll see

[bitonti]

37 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ardarius Stewart is currently unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Chad Hansen is also unemployed.  If it were about coaching, some other team would salvage that after 1 year.

Devin Smith is currently unemployed.  Bryce Petty is currently unemployed.  Lorenzo Maudlin is currently unemployed.  Jarvis Harrison plays for the Sasketchewan Roughriders.  Christian Hackenberg is currently on his 3rd practice squad.  Juston Burris was released, signed by no-one, and is now on the Jets practice squad.  Jordan Leggett is still a Jet, but has already been replaced.  Dylan Donahue is currently unemployed.

In other words, there is not a single Macc draft pick that is not currently on this roster, who is playing football for another NFL team.  Hard to say coaching squandered talent when no other teams are even knocking at the door of that talent.

PREACH 

Mac is far worse a drafter than Bowles is as a head coach. Their fates are tied together but every win Bowles squeezes out is overperforming with a crap roster

Last year Vegas predicted 3.5 wins for this team, they got 5. This year Vegas predicted 6 wins for this team they realistically (depending on this week) could get 7 or 8. The roster isn't deep but somehow they are in these games. 

I have a feeling Todd Bowles is more well respected among NFL circles than he is among these internet forums. Out of the four coaches Woody has hired, he's making the most with the least.

[Adoni Beast]

I’m no Bowles fan/apologist. But what can’t be ignored these last 2 weeks are the injuries, and lack of talent on offense. That would ruin any coach if thats what they had to trot out on offense. However mismatched these last 2 weeks, both games were very winnable. A lesser coach would have gotten blown out. But, a better coach would have won those.

And that’s what it is in the end for Bowles. He’s Mr. Good Enough. But, that doesn’t win championships. Todd Bowles really is Jeff Fisher. They’re the same. Rams had a stacked roster and they were forever 7-9/8-8. Played hard close games against better opponents. Ultraconservative, zero imagination, no idea how to tailor a current gameplan that puts offenses in position to win. 

His time is up, and really should go after this season because as much lack of offensive talent caused each of our 5 losses, if he got aggressive, those games could have been won. His defense collapsing was also equally responsible for each of our losses.

If we bad the best roster in the league + no injuries I’d still have no faith we’d have a shot at winning the Super Bowl with him as our HC. Mac should be gone too, but I think he’ll get a pass.

[RutgersJetFan]

Nobody is getting fired. You guys are setting yourselves up for way to much heartbreak and you should know better.

[sec101row23]

11 minutes ago, C Mart said:

I was trying to say, poorly, is until they felt they had the FQB, they weren't going to go all in on the O...By all in, I mean major FA$$ & premium picks. But again Stewart turned out to be a bad pick..we'll see

Got ya.  Hopefully that’s his thinking.  

[jack48]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

I seriously go back and forth, round and round. 

Bowles is getting fired. He deserves it. Macc is safe, he drafted Darnold. They have a young nucleus on defense with Adams, Maye, Williams, Lee, T. Johnson, Sheperd and Avery Williamson. 

But wait, the offense is so bad, Macc is going to get fired for that.

Both Macc and Bowles are getting fired.

Then I look at the remaining schedule:

 

The remaining opponents have a record of 31 and 30.

You have the Patriots twice. Let's say the Jets lose both games, that gives them 7 losses on the year. But the opponents other than that are 19 and 26.

The Dolphins and Bills have QB issues right now. If the Jets win both of those games a .500 record would come down to winning 2 of 3 against the Titans, Packers and Texans. Two of which are at home.

It is a big if, but does anyone get fired if they get to 8 and 8 on the year?

I know wins and losses aren't the most important thing. But I don't see them firing anyone at 8 and 8. Granted the argument can be easily made that they won't sniff 8 wins, but I think they have a shot at it.

So I go round and round on who will be fired. It is frustrating, next year though they have to load up this offense and give Darnold some weapons.

 

If you keep Macc, do you let him pick his coach?  Do you change the silly power structure?  You have to give him 3 more years with his coach.  Do we want to do that?  Dont think Macc has earned 8 years here.  Sadly, it is best that both go.  But hire a director of football operations and let him set up the structure.  These coaches and GMs have to be answerable to someone with football chops.

[Creepy Lurker]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

But if they go 8 and 8 and have 100 million in cap room wouldn't that make the case for both staying?

A lot of that space is due to not having many players signed at all and a lot of our key players that are brought back will DRASTICALLY reduce that dollar figure. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Well if RutgersJetsFan is right and nobody is getting fired, that means the Jets are winning the next two games.

[HawkeyeJet]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

you don't see  how he gets fired????  DID YOU SLEEP THROUGH THE MACC THREAD?? We have the lowest number of players on contract last year and absolutely atrocious success rate in the draft.

WE JUST RELEASED 2 WRS IN YEAR TWO. 

Kill them all

 

Im still not exactly sure what that proves. Would you or some care to explain what I'm missing in that regard?

[Paradis]

12 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Im still not exactly sure what that proves. Would you or some care to explain what I'm missing in that regard?

sorry typo, i mean next year. 

[Paradis]

12 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Im still not exactly sure what that proves. Would you or some care to explain what I'm missing in that regard?

if you're referring to what does it prove to have a league low players on contract... well there's a myriad of issues that fact suggests. 

[derp]

I don't think either gets fired. 

I also think both should be let go.

This franchise seems to have made one big step - Darnold.  That's pretty much Maccagnan's case.  One of the issues with bringing him back because he got Darnold is that Darnold kind of fell into his lap, is the one thing he's done right, and you also don't need him to repeat that in theory because you have Darnold. The biggerproblem is that the bones are pretty bare other than that. Next season you've got $100M in cap space but are returning:

Offense - Darnold, Crowell, the starting offensive line sans Carpenter, Herndon, and depth pieces (Leggett, Cannon, McGuire, Peake) 

Defense -  Williams, Jenkins, inside linebackers, safeties, Trumaine Johnson, and depth pieces (Pennell, Pierre-Louis, Brooks, Shepherd, Robinson, Basham, Jones, Nickerson, Fatukasi)

Special Teams - Edwards, Hennessy

That's literally the entire roster. On offense you need to add a left guard, an entire set of offensive line backups, a backup quarterback (maybe Webb?), almost an entire receiving core (Anderson is likely back as a RFA, Peake maybe sticks around), probably another tight end, and a better running back would be good too.

On defense you maybe have a starting DL, still desperately need an edge rusher, probably need another starting corner, and definitely need to add DL and linebacker depth.

Also need a kicker.

The roster that's been assembled to date is not good or realistically sustainable. Maccagnan has made some nice small moves over the years and one solid big move, but he's invested a lot in positions like OLB and WR and not hit at all, missed a few times at QB, and overall failed to bring in any late round standouts.

 

As for Bowles, I agree with those who feel he tends to outperform expectations with the roster he's given to work with. And I've seen flashes of decent developmental ideas with Darnold - I think he toes the line between trying not to wreck his confidence and trying to give him opportunities to grow reasonably well. But I also just don't see consistent enough in game coaching skills or management of an organization to think he's great long term.

 

To me, this is one of the first times the Jets are an appealing destination for a GM and a head coach. The team has a likely franchise QB, a relatively scheme versatile group of defensive players, and a ton of cap space. It's a pretty blank slate with some key pieces in place (but not many). Bring in a strong GM candidate, let him pick an offensive minded coach who will mesh with Darnold, and have them build the organization. Longer they wait to bring in people who will do this right, the less appealing the situation is. Now is the right time to make a change.

[HawkeyeJet]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

sorry typo, i mean next year. 

I still don't even really get the significance of that.  That he hasn't signed extensions for his first draft class?

Or the amount of washouts from his drafts?

Im not debating, I legitimately feel like I'm missing the significance.

[Ken Schroy]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

I seriously go back and forth, round and round. 

Bowles is getting fired. He deserves it. Macc is safe, he drafted Darnold. They have a young nucleus on defense with Adams, Maye, Williams, Lee, T. Johnson, Sheperd and Avery Williamson. 

But wait, the offense is so bad, Macc is going to get fired for that.

Both Macc and Bowles are getting fired.

Then I look at the remaining schedule:

 

The remaining opponents have a record of 31 and 30.

You have the Patriots twice. Let's say the Jets lose both games, that gives them 7 losses on the year. But the opponents other than that are 19 and 26.

The Dolphins and Bills have QB issues right now. If the Jets win both of those games a .500 record would come down to winning 2 of 3 against the Titans, Packers and Texans. Two of which are at home.

It is a big if, but does anyone get fired if they get to 8 and 8 on the year?

I know wins and losses aren't the most important thing. But I don't see them firing anyone at 8 and 8. Granted the argument can be easily made that they won't sniff 8 wins, but I think they have a shot at it.

So I go round and round on who will be fired. It is frustrating, next year though they have to load up this offense and give Darnold some weapons.

 

Yes, they have a shot. But the thing with this team historically is that when "have a shot" at looking good is when they cut your heart out. Bank on it.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

That’s my biggest criticism of Maccagnan.  In this day and age of dynamic offense, he seems to have placed little value in obtaining these players.  The Stewart pick is still such a head scratcher, what was he looking at?  That philosophy scares the hell out of me, especially now that we have a legit QB prospect.  

Dude, I started to put a list together of the weaponz this team could have had in the Mac era.  OMG, it's so scary.  We could literally have a DC pissing himself getting ready to face the Jets.  I get every team could do this exercise but not every team has been completely and utterly offensively inpet for 20+ years yet damn near solely focused on building a D that never materializes. 

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I still don't even really get the significance of that.  That he hasn't signed extensions for his first draft class?

Or the amount of washouts from his drafts?

Im not debating, I legitimately feel like I'm missing the significance.

I’d say it’s the amount of washouts and the fact that our roster is short because we cut so much young talent early. Misses are ok by GMs but the amount of misses is mind boggling and our lack of young players on rookie deals is staggering. 

[Ken Schroy]

3 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I still don't even really get the significance of that.  That he hasn't signed extensions for his first draft class?

Or the amount of washouts from his drafts?

Im not debating, I legitimately feel like I'm missing the significance.

Washouts. You cant resign someone that was cut because they suck.